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To Devs: These are NOT F***ing Single Player Games

infra172infra172 Member UncommonPosts: 145
A MMORPG is a massively MULTIPLAYER online role playing game.  See how I capitalized "multiplayer"?  Good.  Its important.

What is wrong with you people?  People don't play MMORPGs to solo.  They play MMORPGs to cooperate or play against other players.  When somebody logs into an online world, they should see real people walking around doing things.  They shouldn't roam empty cities completing tedious tasks without any real human interraction.  That's why we pay f***ing subscriptions.  We don't pay subscriptions to play a single player game! 

This rant has little to do with how you program the games.  Its about your interraction with the MMORPG community.  The community pays your f***ing bill.  The community makes or breaks games.  Make the community happy or your game will be a failure.  Is that too hard a concept?  Want me to slow down for you?  Summary: DONT PISS OFF THE MMORPG COMMUNITY!

DO NOT delay your game and use the excuse that you want to implement new features.  We're not going to wait for you to finish the game.  So spend a little less time playing solitaire and a little more time doing your f***ing job.

DO NOT be or associate yourself with Sony Online Entertainment.  Vanguard just committed suicide.  SOE has a terrible track record.  They make terrible games and they ruin good ones.  SOE servers are graveyards.  There's no community (remember that, a**hole?).  The only people playing them are the stubborn ones who won't admit they made a terrible mistake.

DO NOT promise features you cannot implement.  Case and point: Dark and Light.  They've spent the past three years keeping people from realising they have no idea how to program.  If you lie to the community, either nobody will buy your game or it'll be dead in the first month.  But maybe if you're from Reunion Island and you use dogs as shark bait, surviving a month after game release is aiming high.

DO NOT take preorders unless release is certain.  This is a no brainer.  But that doesn't really help you now does it?  If you take preorders for a game and then delay it, you look like a thief.  Doesn't matter if you really are.  You look like one.  People get nervous.  They stop telling their friends "hear about that cool new game coming out" and start telling them "I heard that company is ripping off everybody". 


You are developing a MMORPG.  When someone buys your game they're expecting to get months or years of gameplay out of it.  People don't buy your game because they see it on the shelf.  They play the games their friends play.  Your industry is 100% reliant on word of mouth.  So pay just a little f***ing attention to your f***ing customers.  O.K.?


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Comments

  • JorevJorev Member Posts: 1,500

    I'll score you at an 8.

    I felt your anger, and you made some good points but still somewhat vague in areas.

    If your rant against soloing is anti-instancing, I agree.

    If your rant against soloing is that all MMOGs should have forced grouping and interdependence, I disagree.

    As primarily a soloer myself, I play against and cooperate with other players and enjoy seeing avatars played by real people. Soloing in a MMOG is far different than playing a single player game.

    image
    "We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
    Brad McQuaid
    Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
    Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    www.vanguardsoh

  • SquidiSquidi Member Posts: 419


    Originally posted by infra172
    People don't play MMORPGs to solo.




    I do. You don't have to be actively engaged with a handful of players to feel the effects of a server filled with thousands of them. Most other players on MMORPGs are retards. It's funny to watch them and take advantage of them from afar, but it's not particularly pleasant having to rely on them or being forced to be near them. Sure, not all people on MMORPGs are retards, but there isn't a gameplay device out there that can tell the difference.
  • fredrik1fredrik1 Member Posts: 144

    I agree with original poster..

    image

  • FunseikiFunseiki Member UncommonPosts: 263
    Everything that you just said has probably gone through some MMOGer's mind at some point in time. While I did not agree w/ exactly what you said i do have to agree with the point that nowadays games coming out arent what they were once hyped up to be. I'm not gonna tell a dev to change a game if the game actually turned out the way the dev wanted - but the empty promises are annoying. 

  • PyndaPynda Member UncommonPosts: 856

    <People don't play MMORPGs to solo>

    One hint. If you're going to rant in absolutes about what everyone else's view on a given subject is, then try to stick only to broad generalities. Because that way you won't appear such a fool to the reader with a different opinion who's sure it's actually he, not you, who is the only omniscient person on earth.

    And purely by coincidence, as it really is me who is that aforementioned walking man/god myself, I'll clue you in on what the absolute best MMORPG design actually would be.

    It would be a design where soloing could be as fun and rewarding as grouping. Just choose whatever strikes your fancy that particular day. A design where you could do (meaningful) PvP one day, and then go on a PvE dungeon crawl the next. Where the crafter economy would have to compete/cooperate with a robust and randomly generated lewt economy (as well as a quest economy). Where character development would offer more choices, not less (i.e. rigid classes vs. skill based). And so on...

    But then all these sorts of things require increasing amounts of thought and tolerance for people to enjoy them. And it might be questionable whether the words thoughtful or tolerant would apply to todays target audience...

    Get to 50+ or so in WoW, and it should be the game for you. Nothing but grouping doing one stupid dungeon over and over again until you can advance to the next one. Or I hear a lot of people say that EQ2 is not at all solo friendly. Or how about Vanguard? Seems to me people with your preference are pretty much getting your wish. So what's the problem here.

    As to your other points, I generally agree.

  • XpheyelXpheyel Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 704

    Yeah I disagree with the solo content thing too. Groups are (usually) more fun for me but it doesn't follow that I want to sit around "LFG" every time I want to advance my character. Also when first learning a new game, I don't want to be relied on, I'm still just trying to figure out whats going on. I don't want to aggro the level 30 named boss onto my level 5 team because I used the wrong AoE.

    Also I think these games are never on time is just because a big project is always apt to be underestimated. I rather they delay it than try to release it half implemented and bug ridden.

    image

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    I would say I play about 50% of the time solo.  I don't expect an MMORPG to be designed around solo content but it should certainly provide enough solo-ability so that if you want to play alone you CAN do so and accomplish things.   "Multiplayer" doesn't always mean you have to be grouped with people or killing other players.  Multiplayer also means the player economy, reliance on crafters, socializing, etc.  It doesn't necessarily mean you're actively grouping or killing other players.

    Most modern MMORPG's have done a pretty good job in this area.  Some better than others...

    I would also dissagree with you on SOE's reputation.  EQ1 was a huge success.  EQ2 is well on it's way to being a huge success.  PlanetSide is the single largest MMOFPS on the market, bigger than the next 3 combined actually.  And SWG, while I will 100% agree that it's been mis-managed all to hell and back managed to chug along for 3 years in the top 8 MMORPG's on the market.  MxO isn't something you can attribute to SOE because it sucked when they acquired it and from what I'm hearing from the MxO community SOE has actually managed to improve the game.

    Yes, SOE has a LOT of people that hate them for various reasons (mostly SWG... LOL) but they also release very solid MMO's... granted their releases are usually shitty but in time they always manage to knock the bugs out (with the notable exception of the fiasco known as SWG though I blame SOE and LEC equally for it's problems).




    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,223


    Originally posted by infra172
    A MMORPG is a massively MULTIPLAYER online role playing game.  See how I capitalized "multiplayer"?  Good.  Its important.

    What is wrong with you people?  People don't play MMORPGs to solo.  They play MMORPGs to cooperate or play against other players.  When somebody logs into an online world, they should see real people walking around doing things. 




    OP, I agree with the theory, but the fact of the matter is, people play MMORPG to solo, not only to solo but many people like soloing. Why do people like soloing, because most people online are rude and annoying. The fact is, people play to solo and $$$$$$$$$$$$$ is what makes a game so any company with half a brain would make a game able to have a strong solo component.

    Also, advertizing in general is almost always half-truth, if you don't like it, bring down capitalism then.

    Cryomatrix
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • TymoraTymora Member UncommonPosts: 1,295

    You had me until you went off on SOE.  You stated some facts and made some good points, but your statements about SOE are your opinions some are just false statements.  SOE has made mistakes, but they are still a successful company that has a couple of very successful mmorpgs.  There are many players still enjoying these games, the servers are not graveyards.  Vanguardwill be a success and Sigil will prosper from their cooperation with SOE.  SOE fits more in their scheme of things, and as long as Sigil calls the shots, we should not have to worry about bad decisions from SOE.

    Most of your other points I agree with, although you seem a little too angry . . . things are not that bad in the mmorpg community yet, and I believe that mmorpgs like Vanguard will turn things back in a good way.

  • SpiritofGameSpiritofGame Member UncommonPosts: 1,332

    I totally understand the OP.

    I know exactly what it's like when the medication stops working.

    ~ Ancient Membership ~

  • UmbroodUmbrood Member UncommonPosts: 1,809

    I agree, just look at the most solo friendly game out there, WoW, it failed horribly, I doubt they even got their investment back.

    In comparison to say DDO, with FORCED grouping, thoose guys are swimming in money.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Jerek_

    I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955

    Thanks for your opinion. It is only your opinion though. I do like to solo in mmorpg's. Being forced to group with knucklehead no it alls such as yourself is quite irritating after awhile.

  • GameloadingGameloading Member UncommonPosts: 14,182
    Lets start with the fact that you can also make a constructive post WITHOUT swearing. imo, it only makes you look like a fool. People play MMORPG's to interact with each other, but NOT all the time, because it isn't possible. lets take Final Fantasy XI for an example. forced grouping. you are spending 1/3rd of your time looking for a group. thats not what I have in mind for fun. I personally like WoW's approach. I can do quests on my own, and I can do instances with a group. I have a choice.


    "DO NOT delay your game and use the excuse that you want to
    implement new features.  We're not going to wait for you to finish the
    game.  So spend a little less time playing solitaire and a little more
    time doing your f***ing job."

    Excuse me, YOU won't wait for developers to actually to finish a game. MMORPG's take time to make and the market is like a murderer at the moment. the developers really aren't joking around playing solitaire, if that what you had in your un informed mind.

    Its also funny how you complain about SOE, yet YOU are here encouraging Developers to do the same thing!!

     I much rather wait till developers actually have a finished product then playing a SWG.


    "You are developing a MMORPG.  When someone buys your game
    they're expecting to get months or years of gameplay out of it.  People
    don't buy your game because they see it on the shelf.  They play the
    games their friends play.  Your industry is 100% reliant on word of
    mouth.  So pay just a little f***ing attention to your f***ing
    customers.  O.K.?"

    You just said you want developers to rush things, but you still expect a game to keep you busy for years?


  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,861

    Ok, I'll chime in on the solo/group thing.

    My personal preference is lots of grouping (small groups) with solo as a viable option.  There should be places in the game where you really need a group in my opinion.  Exp (if the game uses exp) should flow faster in a group. 

    But you should be able to explore solo.  And you should be able to get exp solo but at a slower rate.  There should be quests you can do entirely solo.

    My really big issue is with multi-grouping (aka raiding).  I hate raiding.  In my opinion it's boring and not at all fun.  It ticks me off to no end when a game requires me to go on long, boring raids to upgrade my equipment.

    I agree that multi-player online games should not be all about soloing.  But they also shouldn't force you to subordinate yourself to other players in a corporate-like organization and spend most of your time doing extremely long, tedious, multi-group content in which you are just an anonymous peasant following orders.

  • LaserwolfLaserwolf Member Posts: 2,383

    1.) Soloing in MMORPGs is what the majority wants. I am entirely against it though it is not so much the devs at fault but rather your fellow gamers.

    2.) Releasing a solid MMORPG is the most important thing a Dev can do, even if it takes forever. The problem with MMORPGs is people like you and those who support soloing, no death penalty, open pvp, endless character slot, and instancing.

    The reason a lot of the MMORPGs are sucking upon release is public involvement in the development process. A lot of times gamers need to be told what they like, not get to choose. Promised but not implemented features, long slow development, and shit design and gameplay choices are all the result of our obsessive involvement from Concept Art to Alpha to Beta to Release and everything in-between.

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  • BladinBladin Member UncommonPosts: 1,089
    honestly could there be a more misinformed know-it-all post ever?

    1.) soloing is a required viable thing for new mmorpgs.  Many people don't like sitting around town all day shouting for a group.  Many people don't like getting excluded from most groups because their class/combo isn't desirable.  Many people don't like being forced to roll characters JUST to serve their groups better.

    2.) Look at DDO, that game was released incomplete, and look how great its doing.  The reason they delay is because they have features they want to have in, or certain areas, or more mobs.  Releasing a half finished game is a big no-no.

    3.) Honestly you can't blame them for not having all the promised features.  When a game is in concept stage they have a list of what they want to develop  in what order.  As they go on they encounter problems or what they wanted to do takes too long, so they put off features, scrap some things.  They will push the game back untill they either  a.) Get a version they feel is complete enough. or b.) run out of money/time and are forced to release or face serious problems.

    They don't work on a feature and then go hmmm i wonder what we should do now... No they have a list, and once they finish something they go work on the next right away.  Give it some time.  You can't expect a perfect or half decent game to come out before its done(enough).

    4.) SOE is truthfully one of the better mmorpg companies.  Yes SWG isn't perfect and they made some bad decisions.  But its not as if they were going "how can we ruin this game for people!!?!?!".  They were honestly just trying to improve the game and attract more players.  Even tho it backfired on them.  And honestly besides swg the other mmos they offer are all fantastic, eq, eq2, eqoa, planetside.  Great games. 

    Honestly the major soe hate is just from 13 year olds hopping on the "its so cool to hate soe" bandwagon.


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  • Rod_BRod_B Member Posts: 203

    Yeah op, well...

    Thats the issue, alot of those people DO play to solo. That's why some people regard games like WoW at lower levels as something thats not an MMO game. But people out after quick injections of fun do not care to have to group up and have all kinds of responsibilities or problems with coordinating efforts etc. etc. So, let em play their game, you play yours, and let's hope it's two different titles then

  • RoinRoin Member RarePosts: 3,437
    Someone please explain where the twisted idea that multiplayer means you have to group with people?  A good MMORPG should be 1/4th Solo content, 1/4th Small/Full group content, 1/4th Raid/Content, and 1/4th Story/Live Event content.

    Just because I play a game online with other people.  Does not mean I want to be forced to interact with them.  The choice of if I want to interact, socialize, or even group with said people should be the individuals choice.


    In War - Victory.
    In Peace - Vigilance.
    In Death - Sacrifice.

  • GrimReapezGrimReapez Member Posts: 463


    Originally posted by Bladin
    4.) SOE is truthfully one of the better mmorpg companies.  Yes SWG isn't perfect and they made some bad decisions.  But its not as if they were going "how can we ruin this game for people!!?!?!".  They were honestly just trying to improve the game and attract more players.  Even tho it backfired on them.  And honestly besides swg the other mmos they offer are all fantastic, eq, eq2, eqoa, planetside.  Great games. 

    Honestly the major soe hate is just from 13 year olds hopping on the "its so cool to hate soe" bandwagon.


    No it's not, want to know why?

    1. They don't listen to their customers
    2. They use dirty tricks to keep people subscribed (nge, then bring back old content saying it's new)
    3. They think all us gamers want is to "Kill, loot, repeat".
    4. They told customers of a class that could be unlocked, when it wasn't even in the game.

    They're money hungry a-holes who couldn't care less about the MMORPG community.

    Back to the topic, well you had some good points and was a good read at 4am in the morning. Atm there aren't many decent games (imo) hitting the shelves, nothing that grabs your attention like games used to. Hopefully people developing games can research into the MMO market and get a full understanding of what this community wants and dislikes, only then will they be successfull (like Blizzard).


    -
    Do not hate it, but instead embrace the diversity.

  • britocabritoca Member Posts: 1,484


    Originally posted by Jorev

    I'll score you at an 8.
    I felt your anger, and you made some good points but still somewhat vague in areas.
    If your rant against soloing is anti-instancing, I agree.
    If your rant against soloing is that all MMOGs should have forced grouping and interdependence, I disagree.
    As primarily a soloer myself, I play against and cooperate with other players and enjoy seeing avatars played by real people. Soloing in a MMOG is far different than playing a single player game.


    my thoughs exactly.  I enjoy soloing, but I'll sometimes alternate and send out a "shout out" in the general channel to see if there's something fun to group for.  But mostly soloing.

    -virtual tourist
    want your game back?
    image

  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204

    Thank you for confirming my general opinion of people who can't make a point without excessive profanity.

  • ladyloreladylore Member Posts: 126


    Originally posted by GrimReapez

    Originally posted by Bladin
    4.) SOE is truthfully one of the better mmorpg companies.  Yes SWG isn't perfect and they made some bad decisions.  But its not as if they were going "how can we ruin this game for people!!?!?!".  They were honestly just trying to improve the game and attract more players.  Even tho it backfired on them.  And honestly besides swg the other mmos they offer are all fantastic, eq, eq2, eqoa, planetside.  Great games. 

    Honestly the major soe hate is just from 13 year olds hopping on the "its so cool to hate soe" bandwagon.

    No it's not, want to know why?

    1. They don't listen to their customers
    2. They use dirty tricks to keep people subscribed (nge, then bring back old content saying it's new)
    3. They think all us gamers want is to "Kill, loot, repeat".
    4. They told customers of a class that could be unlocked, when it wasn't even in the game.

    They're money hungry a-holes who couldn't care less about the MMORPG community.


    FYI - numbers 1 and 3 aren't real "reasons", those are your opinions, 2 is a matter of perspective and 4 means they made a mistake, not that SOE "couldn't care less".  You basically proved the point that the person you were responding to was making about where the SOE hate comes from.



    On Topic: What I see as missing from the current MMOs is more motivation to NOT play solo (the benefits to grouping are often either equal or far less than the benefits of soloing), player actions having more of a lasting impact on the game world, certain game quests/mechanics that require people to communicate with other people (for those people who actually want to be social in a MMO), and more individuality in skills/trades/classes (wouldn't it be nice for example if anybody in a certain region wanted Iron Bracers with a strength and wisdom bonus that they HAD to come trade with me because I was the only person for miles around that could make it?)

    Wishful thinking on my part though, eh?
  • JelloB2000JelloB2000 Member CommonPosts: 1,848


    Originally posted by Jorev
    I'll score you at an 8.
    I felt your anger, and you made some good points but still somewhat vague in areas.
    If your rant against soloing is anti-instancing, I agree.
    If your rant against soloing is that all MMOGs should have forced grouping and interdependence, I disagree.
    As primarily a soloer myself, I play against and cooperate with other players and enjoy seeing avatars played by real people. Soloing in a MMOG is far different than playing a single player game.


    Originally posted by Squidi

    Originally posted by infra172People don't play MMORPGs to solo. I do. You don't have to be actively engaged with a handful of players to feel the effects of a server filled with thousands of them. Most other players on MMORPGs are retards. It's funny to watch them and take advantage of them from afar, but it's not particularly pleasant having to rely on them or being forced to be near them. Sure, not all people on MMORPGs are retards, but there isn't a gameplay device out there that can tell the difference.

    Great first replys (no pun).

    In mmorpg:s I try to only group with people that I already know, if I dont know them then I leave unless they show they are willing to learn how the game works.
    But most of the time I dont have the time to group for hours which means I need to solo,[DrPhil] other times I want to do things alone to show myself that I am capable of doing something ingame[/DrPhil].

  • GrimReapezGrimReapez Member Posts: 463


    Originally posted by ladylore

    Originally posted by GrimReapez

    Originally posted by Bladin
    4.) SOE is truthfully one of the better mmorpg companies.  Yes SWG isn't perfect and they made some bad decisions.  But its not as if they were going "how can we ruin this game for people!!?!?!".  They were honestly just trying to improve the game and attract more players.  Even tho it backfired on them.  And honestly besides swg the other mmos they offer are all fantastic, eq, eq2, eqoa, planetside.  Great games. 

    Honestly the major soe hate is just from 13 year olds hopping on the "its so cool to hate soe" bandwagon.

    No it's not, want to know why?

    1. They don't listen to their customers
    2. They use dirty tricks to keep people subscribed (nge, then bring back old content saying it's new)
    3. They think all us gamers want is to "Kill, loot, repeat".
    4. They told customers of a class that could be unlocked, when it wasn't even in the game.

    They're money hungry a-holes who couldn't care less about the MMORPG community.


    FYI - numbers 1 and 3 aren't real "reasons", those are your opinions

    More then just my opinions, they have said to their customers they need to improve alot on their communication. One of their new producers (or w/e) said that gamers only want to "Kill, loot, repeat" , not me.

    2 is a matter of perspective

    Looking at something in a different perspective doesn't necessarily make it incorrect.

    and 4 means they made a mistake, not that SOE "couldn't care less".  You basically proved the point that the person you were responding to was making about where the SOE hate comes from.

    A mistake? it was alot more then just a mistake, they had 5 months to tell their customers and they chose not to. Telling your customers something is in the game and having them work hard towards something that isn't even there is just pathetic. These same decisions cost them their SWG playerbase, and also the trust of other gamers who are researching on games made by SOE.


      

    -
    Do not hate it, but instead embrace the diversity.

  • sartussartus Member Posts: 3


    Originally posted by Tymora

    You had me until you went off on SOE.  You stated some facts and made some good points, but your statements about SOE are your opinions some are just false statements.  SOE has made mistakes, but they are still a successful company that has a couple of very successful mmorpgs.  There are many players still enjoying these games, the servers are not graveyards.  Vanguardwill be a success and Sigil will prosper from their cooperation with SOE.  SOE fits more in their scheme of things, and as long as Sigil calls the shots, we should not have to worry about bad decisions from SOE.
    Most of your other points I agree with, although you seem a little too angry . . . things are not that bad in the mmorpg community yet, and I believe that mmorpgs like Vanguard will turn things back in a good way.



    /agree

    also if a Company needs more time to develop a Game i prefer that then playing an unfinished MMO.

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