Originally posted by Jd1680a Originally posted by Elnator
It has *nothing* to do with whether people get paid or not. The game cost them a LOT of $$$ to develop. To the tune of about 15-20 million. That money was LOANED to them and they used profits from Asheron's Call as the collateral.
The game has to cut a profit or they lose profits from AC, which have been keeping them afloat. Furthermore it has to cut enough of a profit to be profitable AFTER they: 1) Split profits with Atari and Wizards of the Coast
So it's not *good enough* to just be profitable. I don't know the details of the license agreement but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they're expected to play X Million a year to continue to use the license. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Thus any profit they make is not only split into thirds (and they only get 1/3, maybe less actually, depends how the contract works, but it's likely about 1/3) they also probably have to pay a license fee for the AD&D brand as well.
So while it may very well be cutting a profit the question is: Is it cutting a BIG ENOUGH profit? The fact that they're throwing free trials and reducing box price tells me it's not. How bout you?
i dont think turbine have to pay any kind of royalites to hasbro. since atari is the one that have the license to have anything related of DnD made into games. i dont know what went on between turbine and atari for turbine to get the job in making DDO. it could have been anyone, hell they could have picked SOE of all people to make DDO instead.
Atari would have most likely would have funded probably least 70% of the development cost of DDO while turbine could have done the rest. turbine might have gotten an investment company to help fund the rest of the money that is needed. that would have been something manageable for turbine to do. since atari isnt in the business in developing games, they pay other companies do that for them. look at how many other companies have produce DnD related games. you got bioware, obsidian, liquid, and other independent developers all created DnD games for atari.
i dont think giving a seven day trial will hurt anything. its just a way for turbine to expose the product to people. if they were to have say 10,000 people playing the trial last week and 4,000 decide to stay, thats 4,000 new customers. in the long run it could be beneficial for turbine because if they were to get 4,000 new customers every week, that will quickly add up to a larger player base.
it seems the mmo retail boxes have the worst retail value of all genre games. all they want is to put people on their servers so they keep on generating revenue every month from subscription fees.
I hate to break this to you but Atari and Turbine aren't financial powerhouses. This game cost millions to make. Millions that one or the other or both had to get in loans.
Turbine NEEDS profits... currently they're surviving only on a slowly dying MMO: Asheron's Call. It's numbers continue to dindle slowly over time. It was a great game... it really was... but it's showing it's age and people are slowly leaving it for other newer, fresher MMOs'. This is true of all the old ones except possibly DAoC which we were recently told is actually growing since the DR expansion (probably because it brought yet another massive graphics engine upgrade which makes it comparable to modern MMORPG's..... turbine has done no such thing with AC).
Turbine can't afford for DDO to flop... if it does it'll threaten LOTR:O's chances of success. That's why they aren't releasing population numbers. That's why they're throwing free trials and dropping prices on the box drastically. Because they *know* they aren't getting as many players as they need.
Atari has to be paid. WotC has to be paid. Turbine has to be paid and... the BANK has to be paid.
If they don't cut enough *profit* to cover *costs* the game will fold. And even if they do "break even" no company in their right mind considers that a 'success'. They are in business to make a profit, not break even.
I don't know if they are, or not. All I'm saying is that if they only have 50k players right now that number is going to go down, not up. Because DDO just doesn't offer players enough to justify a monthly fee. DDO should never have released in the state it is currently in. There's nothing to do but grind. So people burn through what little content there is VERY quickly.... Which leads to a VERY high turnover rate which means no recurring subscription fees because people blow through the limited content then cancel, waiting for the expansion so they can re-sub and then burn through that content...
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Jd1680a STOP TALKING TO ME, IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH. IF YOU DONT STOP POSTING DIRECTLY TO ME THEN IT IS HARASSMENT. BECAUSE I DONT WANT TO TALK TO YOU. YOU DONT DISCUSS YOU BASH.
You can't report me when you made post on a public form. In no way and no how am I harrassing you when I'm stay on on topic. No one has bash DDO, but we're talking about the the population related to Turbine's performance. You don't pick and choose who post in your topic. If you don't want people talking to you then shouldn't post in these forums and I have yet to make any direct insults, and I plan to keep it that.
Back on the topic, Turbine has a lot people to pay and I fail to see this game paying everyone back. They are going to have to foreclose on the business in order to pay every company back. Hell, I doubt they'll even do an LOTR game. There's still time for Tolkein company to back out.
Originally posted by Jd1680a ive already reported you twice for being a troll. you bashed me for my different views. everyone else here have been kind and were polite to give their point of view and thats fine. thats where you come in, you've bashed me. its not a discussion any longer if all you do is just bash. so you need to [Edited by Finwe]. because i already told you to stop posting here.
Nobody, is bashing you. I have yet to say anything insult to YOU. I've gotten warnings for insulting other people, but moderators said you can't insult the people, but you insult the opinion. So IF I'm bashing your opinion, by the moderators own words, I'm in my RIGHT to do so. So reporting for harassment is doing you no good. You better to help yourself by getting back on topic and stop whinning like a child.
Reality is, you're just getting mad at me because you've had several peopleganged up on you with disagreements and you've been shown that you have no grasp about anything you talked about thus far. Not only did I report you for posting in caps, but I report you for bypassing censor with your cursing and you flamed me.
Enough of this; no more bickering. If either of you have a problem with each other, just ignore the other.
CaptainRPG is right that these are public boards, and as long as he isn't breaking our RoC, he has a right to post here. I have seen no foul conduct; and if you got a problem with his posts, other than disagreements, then report them.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
If not perfect, his numbers really give you a basic idea of how each MMORPG is doing. I'm willing to wait and see what Sir Bruce comes up with for numbers. He only updated up through January of this year, so DDO isn't on the charts yet.
And as yet more proof that MMORPG's with low populations do not survive, Shadowbane has been cancelled. Servers go offline on May 15th. Surprised it lasted this long. It's been limping along for a long long time on life support.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator And as yet more proof that MMORPG's with low populations do not survive, Shadowbane has been cancelled. Servers go offline on May 15th. Surprised it lasted this long. It's been limping along for a long long time on life support.
Hey El, could you post a link to that? I'm not doubting you at all ... just want to read it.
Originally posted by Crash86 Originally posted by Elnator And as yet more proof that MMORPG's with low populations do not survive, Shadowbane has been cancelled. Servers go offline on May 15th. Surprised it lasted this long. It's been limping along for a long long time on life support.
Hey El, could you post a link to that? I'm not doubting you at all ... just want to read it.
TIA
I haven't found a link yet but the shadowbane forum here has info on it. Word over there is May 15... To be honest I don't care enough to bother going to find the official post on it
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Crash86 Originally posted by Jd1680a i am really tired of this. when im trying to bring postive light to this game, someone is coming out and keeps bashing it. why dont you just leave this game alone and go play your own that you like and stop trolling this thread? did you even listen a single damn word i said? it was an educated guess. i dont know what the exact population is. i dont care if the some of the people there are playing the seven day trial. all i care about is keeping some kind of positive look to this game without someone bashing it.
It was a nice effort. I will give you credit for trying.
But in the end it's kind of like putting a coat of paint on a turd. Underneath the glossy exterior, it's still a piece of crap.
Take a look at this thread if you haven't already. The thread has been going on for a little over a month. What you'll see from the anecdotal evidence here is that the game is, at best, stagnant. Even the free trial didn't bump any listed numbers over 1,000 concurrent users on a server.
The financial numbers you guessed at, if they were true, wouldn't begin to offset the development costs and interest, let alone keep the lights on and the support staff paid.
To survive, Turbine is going to have to reach out to the people they said they didn't need. The soloists. The PvP people. People who like crafting.
When you put 'MMO' on a game and try to tack on a monthly fee, people expect a certain thing. And no matter how much anyone wants to argue differently, the standard today is crafting, the ability to solo, some PvP, and player housing. To put out a MMO game without these items and try to get people to buy it is like trying to build a car without a radio, a heater, an air conditioner, and windows you can roll down. Now, are those things required to have a car get you from one place to another? No, they're not. But people expect those things from a car, and if your car doesn't have those things no one will be interested in buying it.
Once you see the announcement of a PvP arena or solo instances, you'll see that Turbine has seen the light. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth from the fanboys who said that these things aren't needed in "their game" (look at the sigs on the DDO boards ... you'll see who those fanboys are). Some will even threaten to quit over it (which I will find absolutely hilarious). But it will be an indication that Turbine is pulling out all of the stops to get DDO to be a viable game.
They wanted to have XP from completed quests, which I think it great. However, that means you need to have a large amount of those types of content to make the game viaable in the long run. It was apparent in first public alpha, that they just didn't have enough content. People said "don't worry, it is just alpha they will have more in beta". Then in beta there wasn't enough content again "don't worry, ....". They need 10 times the number of quests.
So how can they easily add soloist to the game? They have to add or tweak existing content. That may sound very easy to do, but depending on how they designed their code it might not be. In the early days of the forums as well as private emails, long ago, I pushed the devs to make smart code for scaling quests and dungeons. They said it couldn't be done. If they had done that, solo content would be viable.
Now if they need to add open area to roam around in, they have to create content which equals time and money. Who knows if they have that...
Originally posted by Jd1680a Originally posted by Elnator
50k isn't a lot of users. It's possibly not even break-even numbers since they have to pay part of the profts, and there is probably a fixed minimum as well. After all is said and done they probably have somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-5 mil in expenses per year from running DDO. So if the guess of 9mil is accurate that leaves a whopping 4 million as 'profit'. Some, or all, of which has to go to the producer because of whatever license agreement they made. Atari gets a cut, WotC gets a cut... etc.
I dont see how $4 million in profit is a problem. as long as DDO is making enough money to keep people paid. then the game is just as healthy as if turbine decides to go non profit. if turbine could 60-70k subscribers, then the game could go on for years just fine with continually updates and addition content. i hope they will make a (free) expansion this coming christmas.
IIRC, at one point they like 18 months ago, they were seeded with 30 million dollars on top of what they had previously been given. That is a lot of money to return...
Originally posted by CaptainRPG First off, you don't tell me where I can and cannot post. Just because yuo have no grasps have of economics or know how business & customer relationships work doesn't mean we are lying to you. Secondly, trolls are people who say things off-topic or make indirect comments to pick a fight. Again, everything, I've said has been on topic, but you don't like the answer so you wish for me not to speak. Sorry, but you do not have that authority. Lastly, stop IMing to harass me on MSN like some immature brat. Here you are calling me a troll then you get on MSN to IM like some dork. Take your own advice and stop trolling people on the boards and IM.
STOP TALKING TO ME, IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH. IF YOU DONT STOP POSTING DIRECTLY TO ME THEN IT IS HARASSMENT. BECAUSE I DONT WANT TO TALK TO YOU. YOU DONT DISCUSS YOU BASH.
Originally posted by wjrasmussen Originally posted by Jd1680a Originally posted by Elnator
50k isn't a lot of users. It's possibly not even break-even numbers since they have to pay part of the profts, and there is probably a fixed minimum as well. After all is said and done they probably have somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-5 mil in expenses per year from running DDO. So if the guess of 9mil is accurate that leaves a whopping 4 million as 'profit'. Some, or all, of which has to go to the producer because of whatever license agreement they made. Atari gets a cut, WotC gets a cut... etc.
I dont see how $4 million in profit is a problem. as long as DDO is making enough money to keep people paid. then the game is just as healthy as if turbine decides to go non profit. if turbine could 60-70k subscribers, then the game could go on for years just fine with continually updates and addition content. i hope they will make a (free) expansion this coming christmas.
IIRC, at one point they like 18 months ago, they were seeded with 30 million dollars on top of what they had previously been given. That is a lot of money to return... Can you say kicked in the nuts?
Originally posted by Crash86 To survive, Turbine is going to have to reach out to the people they said they didn't need. The soloists. The PvP people. People who like crafting. When you put 'MMO' on a game and try to tack on a monthly fee, people expect a certain thing. And no matter how much anyone wants to argue differently, the standard today is crafting, the ability to solo, some PvP, and player housing. To put out a MMO game without these items and try to get people to buy it is like trying to build a car without a radio, a heater, an air conditioner, and windows you can roll down. Now, are those things required to have a car get you from one place to another? No, they're not. But people expect those things from a car, and if your car doesn't have those things no one will be interested in buying it. Once you see the announcement of a PvP arena or solo instances, you'll see that Turbine has seen the light. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth from the fanboys who said that these things aren't needed in "their game" (look at the sigs on the DDO boards ... you'll see who those fanboys are). Some will even threaten to quit over it (which I will find absolutely hilarious). But it will be an indication that Turbine is pulling out all of the stops to get DDO to be a viable game.
Originally posted by Crash86 Originally posted by Crash86 To survive, Turbine is going to have to reach out to the people they said they didn't need. The soloists. The PvP people. People who like crafting. When you put 'MMO' on a game and try to tack on a monthly fee, people expect a certain thing. And no matter how much anyone wants to argue differently, the standard today is crafting, the ability to solo, some PvP, and player housing. To put out a MMO game without these items and try to get people to buy it is like trying to build a car without a radio, a heater, an air conditioner, and windows you can roll down. Now, are those things required to have a car get you from one place to another? No, they're not. But people expect those things from a car, and if your car doesn't have those things no one will be interested in buying it. Once you see the announcement of a PvP arena or solo instances, you'll see that Turbine has seen the light. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth from the fanboys who said that these things aren't needed in "their game" (look at the sigs on the DDO boards ... you'll see who those fanboys are). Some will even threaten to quit over it (which I will find absolutely hilarious). But it will be an indication that Turbine is pulling out all of the stops to get DDO to be a viable game.
I suspect the wailing and gnashing of teeth has already started.
I would love to know what fact they base their claim that its the "fastest growing MMO in north america" on. It's sold a whopping "300,000" units worldwide. Are those units actually purchased by PEOPLE or are those store purchases to put them on shelves? Honestly curious how Turbine is running those numbers. If they're units sold to customers then they are "real" sales. If they're units sold to stores then they could wind up eating a lot of returns from those stores in 2-3 months if they're not moving as projected.
How many of those units that ARE customer sales became subscribers is what I would be interested in finding out. I suspect that the number is small.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
I knew they would cave to the "we want drow" community. Things are changing, they are finally seeing that solo play is a necessity. Maybe it will be worth buying soon.
Originally posted by brentmain I knew they would cave to the "we want drow" community. Things are changing, they are finally seeing that solo play is a necessity. Maybe it will be worth buying soon.
I won't buy it till they put a world in with other cities and places to visit.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Crash86 Originally posted by Crash86 To survive, Turbine is going to have to reach out to the people they said they didn't need. The soloists. The PvP people. People who like crafting. When you put 'MMO' on a game and try to tack on a monthly fee, people expect a certain thing. And no matter how much anyone wants to argue differently, the standard today is crafting, the ability to solo, some PvP, and player housing. To put out a MMO game without these items and try to get people to buy it is like trying to build a car without a radio, a heater, an air conditioner, and windows you can roll down. Now, are those things required to have a car get you from one place to another? No, they're not. But people expect those things from a car, and if your car doesn't have those things no one will be interested in buying it. Once you see the announcement of a PvP arena or solo instances, you'll see that Turbine has seen the light. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth from the fanboys who said that these things aren't needed in "their game" (look at the sigs on the DDO boards ... you'll see who those fanboys are). Some will even threaten to quit over it (which I will find absolutely hilarious). But it will be an indication that Turbine is pulling out all of the stops to get DDO to be a viable game.
I suspect the wailing and gnashing of teeth has already started.
I would love to know what fact they base their claim that its the "fastest growing MMO in north america" on. It's sold a whopping "300,000" units worldwide. Are those units actually purchased by PEOPLE or are those store purchases to put them on shelves? Honestly curious how Turbine is running those numbers. If they're units sold to customers then they are "real" sales. If they're units sold to stores then they could wind up eating a lot of returns from those stores in 2-3 months if they're not moving as projected.
How many of those units that ARE customer sales became subscribers is what I would be interested in finding out. I suspect that the number is small.
Do you really hate DDO that much that you have to keep putting it down, and then when actual numbers come out that says the game is more popular and more successful than you want it to be you have to grasp at straws and says that they are lying about their "real" numbers.
They of course do not use "store purchase" as you put it, it is the actual number of units sold, a unit sold to a store and sitting on the shelf is not a unit sold.
Originally posted by Wolfen333 Do you really hate DDO that much that you have to keep putting it down, and then when actual numbers come out that says the game is more popular and more successful than you want it to be you have to grasp at straws and says that they are lying about their "real" numbers.
They of course do not use "store purchase" as you put it, it is the actual number of units sold, a unit sold to a store and sitting on the shelf is not a unit sold.
The number of subscribers is based on last months count. Moreover, this is the combine number of players in both Europe and America. It's not a matter of hate, but Turbine trying to trick all the people in think there game is popular when it isn't. Hell, it's doing worse then GW did when it first came out. GW was twice this number and didn't even hit the Asian market yet.
Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by Wolfen333 Do you really hate DDO that much that you have to keep putting it down, and then when actual numbers come out that says the game is more popular and more successful than you want it to be you have to grasp at straws and says that they are lying about their "real" numbers.
They of course do not use "store purchase" as you put it, it is the actual number of units sold, a unit sold to a store and sitting on the shelf is not a unit sold.
The number of subscribers is based on last months count. Moreover, this is the combine number of players in both Europe and America. It's not a matter of hate, but Turbine trying to trick all the people in think there game is popular when it isn't. Hell, it's doing worse then GW did when it first came out. GW was twice this number and didn't even hit the Asian market yet.
What's wrong with 300,000 subscribers? You were insinuating that they were lying a about having 300,000 subscribers, now your backpedalling, trying to find something else to knock it down. You obviously dont like the game, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but stop lying about the game just to make yourself feel better.
You state that Turbine is trying to trick everyone? how? what are they doing that's tricking people? show me!!! Stop stating your opinion as fact and show me what Turbine is doing that's so wrong!!
Originally posted by Wolfen333 Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by Wolfen333 Do you really hate DDO that much that you have to keep putting it down, and then when actual numbers come out that says the game is more popular and more successful than you want it to be you have to grasp at straws and says that they are lying about their "real" numbers.
They of course do not use "store purchase" as you put it, it is the actual number of units sold, a unit sold to a store and sitting on the shelf is not a unit sold.
The number of subscribers is based on last months count. Moreover, this is the combine number of players in both Europe and America. It's not a matter of hate, but Turbine trying to trick all the people in think there game is popular when it isn't. Hell, it's doing worse then GW did when it first came out. GW was twice this number and didn't even hit the Asian market yet.
What's wrong with 300,000 subscribers? You were insinuating that they were lying a about having 300,000 subscribers, now your backpedalling, trying to find something else to knock it down. You obviously dont like the game, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but stop lying about the game just to make yourself feel better.
You state that Turbine is trying to trick everyone? how? what are they doing that's tricking people? show me!!! Stop stating your opinion as fact and show me what Turbine is doing that's so wrong!!
Who said that they have 300,000 subscribers? That number is how many copies of the game they sold. Not how many subscribers they have. And that is the total number of copies they sold to stores. Not individuals. Not all of the copies sold turn into subscribers...
Originally posted by Wolfen333 Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by Wolfen333 Do you really hate DDO that much that you have to keep putting it down, and then when actual numbers come out that says the game is more popular and more successful than you want it to be you have to grasp at straws and says that they are lying about their "real" numbers.
They of course do not use "store purchase" as you put it, it is the actual number of units sold, a unit sold to a store and sitting on the shelf is not a unit sold.
The number of subscribers is based on last months count. Moreover, this is the combine number of players in both Europe and America. It's not a matter of hate, but Turbine trying to trick all the people in think there game is popular when it isn't. Hell, it's doing worse then GW did when it first came out. GW was twice this number and didn't even hit the Asian market yet.
What's wrong with 300,000 subscribers? You were insinuating that they were lying a about having 300,000 subscribers, now your backpedalling, trying to find something else to knock it down. You obviously dont like the game, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but stop lying about the game just to make yourself feel better.
You state that Turbine is trying to trick everyone? how? what are they doing that's tricking people? show me!!! Stop stating your opinion as fact and show me what Turbine is doing that's so wrong!!
As I told the last poster, if you don't know anything about companies or how socio-economic works then there is no point arguing this. I cannot show you anything, you either know it or you don't know it. What I stated was a fact.
Originally posted by Wolfen333 What's wrong with 300,000 subscribers? You were insinuating that they were lying a about having 300,000 subscribers, now your backpedalling, trying to find something else to knock it down. You obviously dont like the game, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but stop lying about the game just to make yourself feel better.
You state that Turbine is trying to trick everyone? how? what are they doing that's tricking people? show me!!! Stop stating your opinion as fact and show me what Turbine is doing that's so wrong!!
Who said that they have 300,000 subscribers? That number is how many copies of the game they sold. Not how many subscribers they have. And that is the total number of copies they sold to stores. Not individuals. Not all of the copies sold turn into subscribers...
This is exactly right. Turbine doesnt know how many boxes have been sold to customers by retailers. they do know how many boxes they do sell to each retailer, thats alot easier to figure out.
so real question is how many of those 300,000 boxes sold turn into subscribers. everyday on the weekend at this hour i will see some 800 people playing at the same time as i am. plus another 600 or so who come on and off during the day and night. on my server that is something around 1400-1500 concurrent players playing in one day. so there is 14 servers in the US and five servers for european customers. if we assume there is the same amount of concurrent players playing at the same time as other servers. the total would be 28,500. so what would be the total subscribers world wide with 28,500 concurrent players playing worldwide?
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Originally posted by Crash86 Once you see the announcement of a PvP arena or solo instances, you'll see that Turbine has seen the light. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth from the fanboys who said that these things aren't needed in "their game" (look at the sigs on the DDO boards ... you'll see who those fanboys are). Some will even threaten to quit over it (which I will find absolutely hilarious).
Comments
The game has to cut a profit or they lose profits from AC, which have been keeping them afloat. Furthermore it has to cut enough of a profit to be profitable AFTER they:
1) Split profits with Atari and Wizards of the Coast
So it's not *good enough* to just be profitable. I don't know the details of the license agreement but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they're expected to play X Million a year to continue to use the license. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Thus any profit they make is not only split into thirds (and they only get 1/3, maybe less actually, depends how the contract works, but it's likely about 1/3) they also probably have to pay a license fee for the AD&D brand as well.
So while it may very well be cutting a profit the question is: Is it cutting a BIG ENOUGH profit? The fact that they're throwing free trials and reducing box price tells me it's not. How bout you?
i dont think turbine have to pay any kind of royalites to hasbro. since atari is the one that have the license to have anything related of DnD made into games. i dont know what went on between turbine and atari for turbine to get the job in making DDO. it could have been anyone, hell they could have picked SOE of all people to make DDO instead.
Atari would have most likely would have funded probably least 70% of the development cost of DDO while turbine could have done the rest. turbine might have gotten an investment company to help fund the rest of the money that is needed. that would have been something manageable for turbine to do. since atari isnt in the business in developing games, they pay other companies do that for them. look at how many other companies have produce DnD related games. you got bioware, obsidian, liquid, and other independent developers all created DnD games for atari.
i dont think giving a seven day trial will hurt anything. its just a way for turbine to expose the product to people. if they were to have say 10,000 people playing the trial last week and 4,000 decide to stay, thats 4,000 new customers. in the long run it could be beneficial for turbine because if they were to get 4,000 new customers every week, that will quickly add up to a larger player base.
it seems the mmo retail boxes have the worst retail value of all genre games. all they want is to put people on their servers so they keep on generating revenue every month from subscription fees.
I hate to break this to you but Atari and Turbine aren't financial powerhouses. This game cost millions to make. Millions that one or the other or both had to get in loans.
Turbine NEEDS profits... currently they're surviving only on a slowly dying MMO: Asheron's Call. It's numbers continue to dindle slowly over time. It was a great game... it really was... but it's showing it's age and people are slowly leaving it for other newer, fresher MMOs'. This is true of all the old ones except possibly DAoC which we were recently told is actually growing since the DR expansion (probably because it brought yet another massive graphics engine upgrade which makes it comparable to modern MMORPG's..... turbine has done no such thing with AC).
Turbine can't afford for DDO to flop... if it does it'll threaten LOTR:O's chances of success. That's why they aren't releasing population numbers. That's why they're throwing free trials and dropping prices on the box drastically. Because they *know* they aren't getting as many players as they need.
Atari has to be paid. WotC has to be paid. Turbine has to be paid and... the BANK has to be paid.
If they don't cut enough *profit* to cover *costs* the game will fold. And even if they do "break even" no company in their right mind considers that a 'success'. They are in business to make a profit, not break even.
I don't know if they are, or not. All I'm saying is that if they only have 50k players right now that number is going to go down, not up. Because DDO just doesn't offer players enough to justify a monthly fee. DDO should never have released in the state it is currently in. There's nothing to do but grind. So people burn through what little content there is VERY quickly.... Which leads to a VERY high turnover rate which means no recurring subscription fees because people blow through the limited content then cancel, waiting for the expansion so they can re-sub and then burn through that content...
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
You can't report me when you made post on a public form. In no way and no how am I harrassing you when I'm stay on on topic. No one has bash DDO, but we're talking about the the population related to Turbine's performance. You don't pick and choose who post in your topic. If you don't want people talking to you then shouldn't post in these forums and I have yet to make any direct insults, and I plan to keep it that.
Back on the topic, Turbine has a lot people to pay and I fail to see this game paying everyone back. They are going to have to foreclose on the business in order to pay every company back. Hell, I doubt they'll even do an LOTR game. There's still time for Tolkein company to back out.
Nobody, is bashing you. I have yet to say anything insult to YOU. I've gotten warnings for insulting other people, but moderators said you can't insult the people, but you insult the opinion. So IF I'm bashing your opinion, by the moderators own words, I'm in my RIGHT to do so. So reporting for harassment is doing you no good. You better to help yourself by getting back on topic and stop whinning like a child.
Reality is, you're just getting mad at me because you've had several peopleganged up on you with disagreements and you've been shown that you have no grasp about anything you talked about thus far. Not only did I report you for posting in caps, but I report you for bypassing censor with your cursing and you flamed me.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Enough of this; no more bickering. If either of you have a problem with each other, just ignore the other.
CaptainRPG is right that these are public boards, and as long as he isn't breaking our RoC, he has a right to post here. I have seen no foul conduct; and if you got a problem with his posts, other than disagreements, then report them.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Sir Bruce is working up some new numbers on MMORPG subscriptions.
http://www.mmogchart.com/
If not perfect, his numbers really give you a basic idea of how each MMORPG is doing. I'm willing to wait and see what Sir Bruce comes up with for numbers. He only updated up through January of this year, so DDO isn't on the charts yet.
Captain John Matin
Royal Red
And as yet more proof that MMORPG's with low populations do not survive, Shadowbane has been cancelled. Servers go offline on May 15th. Surprised it lasted this long. It's been limping along for a long long time on life support.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Hey El, could you post a link to that? I'm not doubting you at all ... just want to read it.
TIA
Hey El, could you post a link to that? I'm not doubting you at all ... just want to read it.
TIA
I haven't found a link yet but the shadowbane forum here has info on it. Word over there is May 15...
To be honest I don't care enough to bother going to find the official post on it
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
It was a nice effort. I will give you credit for trying.
But in the end it's kind of like putting a coat of paint on a turd. Underneath the glossy exterior, it's still a piece of crap.
Take a look at this thread if you haven't already. The thread has been going on for a little over a month. What you'll see from the anecdotal evidence here is that the game is, at best, stagnant. Even the free trial didn't bump any listed numbers over 1,000 concurrent users on a server.
The financial numbers you guessed at, if they were true, wouldn't begin to offset the development costs and interest, let alone keep the lights on and the support staff paid.
To survive, Turbine is going to have to reach out to the people they said they didn't need. The soloists. The PvP people. People who like crafting.
When you put 'MMO' on a game and try to tack on a monthly fee, people expect a certain thing. And no matter how much anyone wants to argue differently, the standard today is crafting, the ability to solo, some PvP, and player housing. To put out a MMO game without these items and try to get people to buy it is like trying to build a car without a radio, a heater, an air conditioner, and windows you can roll down. Now, are those things required to have a car get you from one place to another? No, they're not. But people expect those things from a car, and if your car doesn't have those things no one will be interested in buying it.
Once you see the announcement of a PvP arena or solo instances, you'll see that Turbine has seen the light. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth from the fanboys who said that these things aren't needed in "their game" (look at the sigs on the DDO boards ... you'll see who those fanboys are). Some will even threaten to quit over it (which I will find absolutely hilarious). But it will be an indication that Turbine is pulling out all of the stops to get DDO to be a viable game.
They wanted to have XP from completed quests, which I think it great. However, that means you need to have a large amount of those types of content to make the game viaable in the long run. It was apparent in first public alpha, that they just didn't have enough content. People said "don't worry, it is just alpha they will have more in beta". Then in beta there wasn't enough content again "don't worry, ....". They need 10 times the number of quests.
So how can they easily add soloist to the game? They have to add or tweak existing content. That may sound very easy to do, but depending on how they designed their code it might not be. In the early days of the forums as well as private emails, long ago, I pushed the devs to make smart code for scaling quests and dungeons. They said it couldn't be done. If they had done that, solo content would be viable.
Now if they need to add open area to roam around in, they have to create content which equals time and money. Who knows if they have that...
IIRC, at one point they like 18 months ago, they were seeded with 30 million dollars on top of what they had previously been given. That is a lot of money to return...
/reported
IIRC, at one point they like 18 months ago, they were seeded with 30 million dollars on top of what they had previously been given. That is a lot of money to return...
Can you say kicked in the nuts?
Well, now. Lookie what we have here.
http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=20&pagebuilder[module]=article&pagebuilder[display_item]=412
I suspect the wailing and gnashing of teeth has already started.
Well, now. Lookie what we have here.
http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=20&pagebuilder[module]=article&pagebuilder[display_item]=412
I suspect the wailing and gnashing of teeth has already started.
I would love to know what fact they base their claim that its the "fastest growing MMO in north america" on. It's sold a whopping "300,000" units worldwide. Are those units actually purchased by PEOPLE or are those store purchases to put them on shelves? Honestly curious how Turbine is running those numbers. If they're units sold to customers then they are "real" sales. If they're units sold to stores then they could wind up eating a lot of returns from those stores in 2-3 months if they're not moving as projected.
How many of those units that ARE customer sales became subscribers is what I would be interested in finding out. I suspect that the number is small.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Well, now. Lookie what we have here.
http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=20&pagebuilder[module]=article&pagebuilder[display_item]=412
I suspect the wailing and gnashing of teeth has already started.
I would love to know what fact they base their claim that its the "fastest growing MMO in north america" on. It's sold a whopping "300,000" units worldwide. Are those units actually purchased by PEOPLE or are those store purchases to put them on shelves? Honestly curious how Turbine is running those numbers. If they're units sold to customers then they are "real" sales. If they're units sold to stores then they could wind up eating a lot of returns from those stores in 2-3 months if they're not moving as projected.
How many of those units that ARE customer sales became subscribers is what I would be interested in finding out. I suspect that the number is small.
Do you really hate DDO that much that you have to keep putting it down, and then when actual numbers come out that says the game is more popular and more successful than you want it to be you have to grasp at straws and says that they are lying about their "real" numbers.
They of course do not use "store purchase" as you put it, it is the actual number of units sold, a unit sold to a store and sitting on the shelf is not a unit sold.
What's wrong with 300,000 subscribers? You were insinuating that they were lying a about having 300,000 subscribers, now your backpedalling, trying to find something else to knock it down. You obviously dont like the game, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but stop lying about the game just to make yourself feel better.
You state that Turbine is trying to trick everyone? how? what are they doing that's tricking people? show me!!! Stop stating your opinion as fact and show me what Turbine is doing that's so wrong!!
What's wrong with 300,000 subscribers? You were insinuating that they were lying a about having 300,000 subscribers, now your backpedalling, trying to find something else to knock it down. You obviously dont like the game, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but stop lying about the game just to make yourself feel better.
You state that Turbine is trying to trick everyone? how? what are they doing that's tricking people? show me!!! Stop stating your opinion as fact and show me what Turbine is doing that's so wrong!!
Who said that they have 300,000 subscribers? That number is how many copies of the game they sold. Not how many subscribers they have. And that is the total number of copies they sold to stores. Not individuals. Not all of the copies sold turn into subscribers...
What's wrong with 300,000 subscribers? You were insinuating that they were lying a about having 300,000 subscribers, now your backpedalling, trying to find something else to knock it down. You obviously dont like the game, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but stop lying about the game just to make yourself feel better.
You state that Turbine is trying to trick everyone? how? what are they doing that's tricking people? show me!!! Stop stating your opinion as fact and show me what Turbine is doing that's so wrong!!
As I told the last poster, if you don't know anything about companies or how socio-economic works then there is no point arguing this. I cannot show you anything, you either know it or you don't know it. What I stated was a fact.
This is exactly right. Turbine doesnt know how many boxes have been sold to customers by retailers. they do know how many boxes they do sell to each retailer, thats alot easier to figure out.
so real question is how many of those 300,000 boxes sold turn into subscribers. everyday on the weekend at this hour i will see some 800 people playing at the same time as i am. plus another 600 or so who come on and off during the day and night. on my server that is something around 1400-1500 concurrent players playing in one day. so there is 14 servers in the US and five servers for european customers. if we assume there is the same amount of concurrent players playing at the same time as other servers. the total would be 28,500. so what would be the total subscribers world wide with 28,500 concurrent players playing worldwide?
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
As predicted:
http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35420