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Instanced Dungeons for the Anti-Social MMO?

RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,124

Ok, I understand the importance of ID's in recent MMO games. Specifically over camped areas/mobs and safety from being ganked if the game has PvP. However, has it become so crazy now that gaming companies are making MMO's with nothing but ID's? I'm a huge fan of Dungeons and Dragons so there was no doubt in my mind, DDO was going to be good. Well, it's far from it thanks to the non D&D atmosphere. When you played D&D, sure, you'ld cut out a lot of the traveling and such, but not everything inbetween. DDO is nothing more then 3-4 small zones and everything else is ID's. How can you have a community with a game like this?

Where I'm coming from are the days of EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, DAoC, WoW, L1, L2, Horizons, Shadowbane and so on. These games were not annoying when it came to exploring. I played EQ for years and years and with 10 expansions, you can imagine the shear size of the EQ universe. Traveling issues? Pppfpfpfttt. Try implementing speedier forms of traveling like speed buffs or teleportation spells. I'm sorry, but I can't, as of right now, see any purpose for ID's being the only thing that makes up a game. Shame on you Turbine and WotC for making such a poor game. I'm afraid a game needs larger worlds to hold my interest and to be honest, Guild Wars, which is free to play, is by far a more interesting game to play then DDO. Now that's a sad realization if I ever saw one.

Comments

  • RattrapRattrap Member Posts: 1,599
    And when some pople said that instancing will ruin DDO , and that such game can never be good...people flamed us...

    "Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas

  • ZhanghiaZhanghia Member UncommonPosts: 1,312
    I'm glad they made Instance Dungeons. And I find myself communicating in DDO even if I didn't want to because I often need to talk to them about party state or just idly chatting. If there wasn't ID's then it just wouldn't be D&D, you don't go into a game and find 5 other groups camping a dragon, waiting for their turn to kill it. For this point, I'll disagree with you.
  • RudnocRudnoc Member Posts: 208

    I agree with the OP. However don't blame WotC at all for this. Keep the blame all to Turbine. Because of a lot of what Turbine has done with all their games I totally doubt I will even give LOTRO a try unless they give me a free trial. I will not waste any more money on their products to be stuck with anymore discs to collect dust.

    As for Zhanghia, you don't have to go crazy with Instanced quests just to stop camping of dungeons. I think WoW is a prefect example of how the new worlds need to be. Not content or graphics and such, but just how they set up the world. The world needs to be one big playground and all quests and underworld should be instanced.

    DDO did just the opposite. They went to the extreme and took the world from us and tried to copy a session of a PnP too much and killed the possibility of a great MMO that DDO could have been.

    To me DDO is just like being at the state fair and each quest is like a carnival ride and the ticket collector is equivalent to a quest giver in DDO. In the end DDO is a joke and the voice used for DMing is an embarrassment to the D&D franchise as it is the same annoying voice from AC2 advertisements.

  • SamuraiswordSamuraisword Member Posts: 2,111

    I hate instancing.

    Games like Guild Wars and D&DO online and CoH/CoV have way too much instancing.

    I  can't get immersed in those games. Even Wow is pushing the limits on instancing.

    image

  • GameloadingGameloading Member UncommonPosts: 14,182
    I think its fits in some mmorpg's. for example, how in the world are you going to at least try to get the D&D experience in D&DO if you don't instance the game? I don't know much about the P&P D&D, but  I do know that it definitly wasn't entering a dungeon with 70 people.

    and for guild wars..well I don't really mind it there to be honnest.instancing saves a huge load on server traffic so they don't require a monthly fee. its a great solution for those who can't/don't want to spend money on a monthly fee.


  • J_HurryJ_Hurry Member UncommonPosts: 230

    Instanced Dungeons = lack of content.

    LGM Alchemist (Legendary Grandmaster)
  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433
    Instancing is the only thing they did right in DDO, in a long list of mistakes.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • RattrapRattrap Member Posts: 1,599
    You got it all wrong.

    The ones thet defend DDO instancing generally talk about instancing dungeons or not instancing dungeons (mission areas)

    While it is generally bad to enter a big mission/dungeon and find another group camping there. It is also realistic. It is open world , and in open world you can meet other people everywhere. But then again it could sometimes break immersion.

    I was big opponent of INSTANCING , beliving it ruins MMO feeling. Especially after playing GW - and ESPECIALLY DDO!

    But than i tried COH/COV and i changed my mind. Instancing can be implemented right.

    What you have in COV is a open world with enemies and everything like in other MMO's but when you enter a designated mission it is only yours (instanced) (same was done in AO)
    This actually works very well , especially because COV missions even suit themselves to size of your party - so you can even solo them.

    DDO aproaches Instancing same way GW does (and GW is no monthly fee game - note that)
    In DDO there is no world - Just a shared city area (like a virtual chat room) the rest is Instance (actually every room in DDO is a instance - people that understand what i talking about will understand)

    This could be compared to online game - that uses let say Gamespy chat room to find group and than launches the game.

    There is no world in DDO

    ----

    In other word -

    If you use instancing to make some important missions private (like most of BIG mmos do - wow,eq2...etc) it is justified.

    If you use instances to basically cheat people in thinking they are playing MMO while actualy they play online network game...well it SUCKS!


    "Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas

  • hadzhadz Member Posts: 712

    Guild Wars is by far the most social MMO I've played. The instanced dungeons mean you have to join a guild, or get a pickup group...you cannot (except in the case of very specialized farming builds in rare areas) take on the mobs by yourself! Some may say, oh but you can use henchies (free to hire, NPC fighters)...well the people using henchies are those that would solo a "standard" (little to no instancing) MMO anyway! (It's just a playstyle...you can't dictate to the soloer how to play...but the instanced nature of the game DOES NOT LEAD to this playstyle)

    In most other MMOs I've played, even though the areas are open and you can meet people roaming around, they still become just a bunch of people soloing in the same area. NOT SOCIAL in the slightest. Games I'm basing this on: WoW & EQ2 mainly, but nearly every MMO I've played has demonstrated this to some extent.

    PS. The GW fanbois have finally overtaken the EVE fanbois on MMORPG.com, it may not last but...oh happy day! ;)

  • M1sf1tM1sf1t Member UncommonPosts: 1,583
    DDO is a attempt to capture the AD&D feel. You don't spend 30 minutes from getting to point A to point B in PnP AD&D unless you roll badly and have a encounter on the way to the dungeon. DDO is a reflection of the PnP playstyle and it's focus on questing in dungeons. I think ID is a perfect way to focus on the main aspects of AD&D and for it not to become a EQ1 clone where you spend a lot of downtime just getting to your dungeon. Don't get me wrong ihere I am not in favor of ID worlds only just only in games where it makes sense and in a DDO it makes sense because of it's AD&D PnP  gameplay style roots.

    Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.

    Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:

    GW2 (+LoL and BF3)

  • RattrapRattrap Member Posts: 1,599


    Originally posted by M1sf1t
    DDO is a attempt to capture the AD&D feel. You don't spend 30 minutes from getting to point A to point B in PnP AD&D unless you roll badly and have a encounter on the way to the dungeon. DDO is a reflection of the PnP playstyle and it's focus on questing in dungeons. I think ID is a perfect way to focus on the main aspects of AD&D and for it not to become a EQ1 clone where you spend a lot of downtime just getting to your dungeon. Don't get me wrong ihere I am not in favor of ID worlds only just only in games where it makes sense and in a DDO it makes sense because of it's AD&D PnP  gameplay style roots.



    BULSHIT !

    You my friend obviously never played D&D , or maybe you have a very bad DM.

    1 DDO - No traveling , we will transport you directly into the action.
       1 Real D&D - Yes traveling , you will travel and you will fear and hate it. You will be attacked by monsters , you will be lost , you will be hungry , you will come over natural obstacles , and perhaps find some mysterious NPCon the way

    2 DDO - No alignment , why to bother - we give you hack and slash
       2 real D&D - Yes algnment . You will understand that your decisions are far more important than your fighting skills.

    3 DDO - It is all about action , and not only action - reflexes even !
      3 Real D&D - We are all about thinking , strategy and roleplaying , no reflexes needed (except if someone knocks your mountain dew all over the players handbook )


    All in all DDO only thouching point with D&D is resembling class/skill system. And even that is crumpled beyound recognition.

    Shame on Turbine

    "Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194


    Originally posted by hadz

    Guild Wars is by far the most social MMO I've played. The instanced dungeons mean you have to join a guild, or get a pickup group...you cannot (except in the case of very specialized farming builds in rare areas) take on the mobs by yourself! Some may say, oh but you can use henchies (free to hire, NPC fighters)...well the people using henchies are those that would solo a "standard" (little to no instancing) MMO anyway! (It's just a playstyle...you can't dictate to the soloer how to play...but the instanced nature of the game DOES NOT LEAD to this playstyle)
    In most other MMOs I've played, even though the areas are open and you can meet people roaming around, they still become just a bunch of people soloing in the same area. NOT SOCIAL in the slightest. Games I'm basing this on: WoW & EQ2 mainly, but nearly every MMO I've played has demonstrated this to some extent.
    PS. The GW fanbois have finally overtaken the EVE fanbois on MMORPG.com, it may not last but...oh happy day! ;)


    I agree, GW is the best instanced game out there.
    Although there is virtually no shared world, the game has lots of content to keep you busy for a while, and most importantly people can solo if they like to (although it is not suggested).
    Plus GW has PVP, which is a big feature of the game.

    DDO went for the GW market hoping to attract even more casual players thanks to the big D&D franchise.
    Unfortunately Turbine is not able to develope even Pacman, let alone a complex and fun game.
    They could't even copy GW right, they wanted to do it their way, which usually is wrong (see AC2 story for reference).
    Now they have 2 failures in their curriculum and with their next game approaching (LOTRO), I am frightened to death they will butcher that one too.

  • neuronomadneuronomad Member Posts: 1,276
    Overlooking Gankers and KSers there is just something cool about other players in the game world around you.   Some of my favorite times in MMO gaming have been running up and helping another player who was about to get pwned.   I personally don't feel that IDs have a real place in a true MMO.   

    --------------------------------
    Currently Playing: Guild Wars 2 and Path of Exile

    Quit: Eden Eternal, Wakfu, DDO, STO, DCUO, Sword 2, Atlantica Online, LOTRO, SWTOR, RIFT, Earthrise, FFXIV, RoM, Allods Online, GA,WAR,CO,V:SoH,POTBS,TR,COH/COV, WOW, DDO,AL, EQ, Eve, L2, AA, Mx0, SWG, SoR, AO, RFO, DAoC, and others.
    www.twitter.com/mlwhitt
    www.michaelwhitt.com

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,124

    I'm not saying Instancing is entirely bad, but a game with nothing but ID's? Come on, I played AD&D for over 12 years and every module I ever DMed required atleast some travel. In my honest opinion, DDO is pretty much a game where you have 1 small social area with a bunch of mission vendors. You grab a mission and a team and complete mission, rinse and repeat. Granted, the missions are well done, your missing the point of the word MMO. DDO is not an MMO in any regards. In fact, it feels more like what someone else mentioned, a gamespy network game for 4-64 players.

    Instancing is fine in moderation, DDO went overboard and it's just that simple. If I wanted, I could probably play Elder Scrolls IV and get more enjoyment for my money. Perhaps if they removed the monthly fee, I'd accept the game as is, but it is not worthy to be called an MMO and therefor not worth paying for. Oh yeah, just remembered, NWN is basically the same concept as DDO, but only better, another sad realization, cause it's FREE.

    Free Games > DDO :

    1) Guild Wars

    2) Never Winters Night

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433


    Originally posted by Rattrap
    You got it all wrong.

    But than i tried COH/COV and i changed my mind. Instancing can be implemented right.

    If you use instancing to make some important missions private (like most of BIG mmos do - wow,eq2...etc) it is justified.

    If you use instances to basically cheat people in thinking they are playing MMO while actualy they play online network game...well it SUCKS!



    *shrug*

    This is your opinion.

    Personnally CoV and CoH are a MINIMUM for me, a game that run any less instanced than CoV/CoH (like Auto Assault for example) lose points.  CoV and CoH hit it on the nail pretty well, I don't mind if the game lean toward more instancing than that or follow that line just like CoV, but if it cross the line toward less instancing, it lose interest/points.

    DDO instancing is fine, it is the game that come with this instancing that is not appealing.

    Instancing allow me to turn any annoying player OFF.  CoV and CoH are perfect on this aspect, a game can have more instancing, but not less.  If I can't turn a player off, than I will turn the game off.  I will never have to bear any uber raider ever again, this is history.  *Wave TR and LoS*, wont miss you guys, good riddance! 

    MMO have an option to ALLOW players to share the same zone, enforcing that option is just as bad as not allowing it.  I want to play with my friends, a few strangers (no more than 5, I am static on the 6 persons group, but I can somehow handle the 7 strangers group of CoH, yet that is stretching it since at 11 other persons I call it a raid and enter a bitching mode, yet a 8 persons group = Khorne....bah) and compete with the server...yeah it is great to change strangers, group new guys all the time...and your RL friends! 

    Talking of DDO, just to show the total lack of understanding they have toward instancing, they even have respawn inside instances...this is hilarious!  An instanced should have no respawn, respawnin in an instance, this is ridiculous!  I mean, I can understand respawn in a particuliar setting, but overall instance respawning is presponderous.  Instancing offer the privilege and the understanding of offering no respawn and make it more realistic (fun prevail over realistic, but when you can accomodate it, it add to the fun).  Mobs respawning into instanced...only Turbines did it as far as I know and it is not a compliment!

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • GreyfaceGreyface Member Posts: 390


    Originally posted by Rhoklaw

    Oh yeah, just remembered, NWN is basically the same concept as DDO, but only better, another sad realization, cause it's FREE.



    Bingo!  That's exactly it.  The mulltiplayer part of a game like DDO (and other instance-heavy games like CoV) isn't substantively different than the multiplay in games like Diablo, NWN or even most online shooters and RTS's.  Exactly WHY are we paying $15 a month for these games when most of them would work just fine as Gamespy-enabled single-player games?  What are we getting for our money?  Even in WoW, you solo almost everything above ground and group only for dungeons and PvP... activities that don't have any effect on the game world at large.  A graphical player-matching lobby is not an online world.  And, for that matter, niether is a single-player game played on the publisher's servers.

    People wonder where all the single-player RPGs have gone (Oblivion excepted)..... the sad truth is we will never again get the milk for free - the game companies have tricked us into renting the cow for $15 a month. 

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194


    Originally posted by Greyface
    People wonder where all the single-player RPGs have gone (Oblivion excepted)..... the sad truth is we will never again get the milk for free - the game companies have tricked us into renting the cow for $15 a month. 


    Unfortunately I will have to agree with you.
    Offline RPG are dying out, except few exception.
    Even Bioware, father of  NWN and Baldurs Gate is turning itselves into a MMO company, and who knows, probably Oblivion would be the last offline game from Bethesda too.

    Now adays it is much more easy to make a multiplayer game and stick the MMORPG label on it.
    Well I don't mind when those games are well done like GW (also because it is free like NWN and Diablo), but when we start seeing things like DDO who charge a monthly fee for what is basically a multiplayer game,  I start to worry.

  • HuntnHuntn Member Posts: 284

    Originally posted by Rhoklaw

    Guild Wars, which is free to play, is by far a more interesting game to play then DDO. Now that's a sad realization if I ever saw one.
    But all of Guild War's questing space is instanced too. Well, you do have more space to wander. :)


    BTW, I don't care for GW or DDO. Give me the wide open non-instanced spaces!


    -Hunt'n

    -----------------------
    Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
    Current MMO:
    Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
    Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
    Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2

  • HuntnHuntn Member Posts: 284


    Originally posted by Greyface


    Originally posted by Rhoklaw

    Oh yeah, just remembered, NWN is basically the same concept as DDO, but only better, another sad realization, cause it's FREE.


    Bingo!  That's exactly it.  The mulltiplayer part of a game like DDO (and other instance-heavy games like CoV) isn't substantively different than the multiplay in games like Diablo, NWN or even most online shooters and RTS's.  Exactly WHY are we paying $15 a month for these games when most of them would work just fine as Gamespy-enabled single-player games?  What are we getting for our money?  Even in WoW, you solo almost everything above ground and group only for dungeons and PvP... activities that don't have any effect on the game world at large.  A graphical player-matching lobby is not an online world.  And, for that matter, niether is a single-player game played on the publisher's servers.

    People wonder where all the single-player RPGs have gone (Oblivion excepted)..... the sad truth is we will never again get the milk for free - the game companies have tricked us into renting the cow for $15 a month. 




    What about Titan Quest?

    http://titanquestgame.com/


    -Hunt'n

    -----------------------
    Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
    Current MMO:
    Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
    Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
    Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2

  • JorevJorev Member Posts: 1,500

    No instancing of game world space for me.

    Give me a game like the original EQ1 prior to Planes of Power anyday.

    It's more realistic to encounter other inhabitants of a virtual world wherever they me be, be it open outdoor space or dungeons. If you can't deal with other players sharing the same space with you, then MMOGs are not for you. There are plenty of realistic game mechanics that can prevent killstealing and mob camping etc.

    The only instancing I believe in, is PvP combat, just the fight itself which is possible ala "The Realm online", because it prevents players from using external unrealistic real life communication to call in reinforcements.

    image
    "We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
    Brad McQuaid
    Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
    Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    www.vanguardsoh

  • GreyfaceGreyface Member Posts: 390


    Originally posted by Huntn

    What about Titan Quest?
    http://titanquestgame.com/

    -Hunt'n

    http://titanquestgame.com/

    -Hunt'n

    http://titanquestgame.com/

    -Hunt'n


    A long time ago, I got very excited about a game called Ultima Online 2.  Ever since then, I have not been able to get too excited about a game that's not in open Beta yet.

    I hope that Titan Quest is a good game and sells well.  However, I suspect that, with the huge financial success of WoW, many of the remaining single-player RPGs in development are going to get axed in favor of more half-assed MMOs.  Time will tell. 

    Don't get me wrong, I love a good MMO as much as anyone else who reads these forums.  But a lot of the games being released these days don't need to be pay-for-play MMOs.  They'd work just as well, if not better, as multiplayer RPGs along the lines of Neverwinter Nights.  The worst offender is DDO, but CoX and, to some extent, WoW are also guilty of this.  RPG players are being tricked into paying for what shooter and RTS fans get for free. 


  • darkfalzdarkfalz Member Posts: 58
    WOW is king at instancing

    WoW > CoV & CoH > GW > GWF > DDO

    Period


    I love my family

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