I want a challenge from a game, but not constant frustration.
I want to have to think to advance (not strictly levels, but rank, or missions or something that is about story and such not about getting the next uber thing).
I want to be able to do things with my guild still half drunk at 3am after the bar.
Right now that means EQ2. There are some decent puzzels (though not alot). Character advancment as well as writs or pure storyline quests are interesting (if nothing else EQ2 has a lot of lore now). And I can harvest and attempt to finish collections while just sober enough to add ? drops to my collection while my couch is full of people passed out mid movie.
"Hard" changes at any given time and isn't a good word to describe any MMO. PSO was hard as heck if you didn't have good drops, but overall teh game was simplistic...UO was the same, it was only hard when you were a target if lots of people liked you it actually got boring.
So, I guess I am not readyt for a hard MMO, just one that lets me do differnt things dependant on my goal. I don't expect flabergasting things, just a good puzzle now and then, or something to do simply to ki8ll time now and then, or something just fun and pointless with guildies now and then.
I am hoping Vanguard can do that...just hope the cheapest edition will provide that
I want a game that has diverse and dynamic CHALLENGE.
Some people like PvP. It is MORE challenging to fight another player then an AI. (all things being equal)
Some people like to raid. It is a challenge to get a bunch of strangers to work as a cooperative group
Some people like to solo. They feel the challenge is in self accomlishment.
Some people like to craft. contribution/creation and wealth accumulation is the challenge for them.
Some like exploration. Seeing something and checking out every nook and cranny of a game world is the challenge.
Others like quest and storyline - being part of the world and lore.
Leave out any of these and you don't have an online world. D&DO left out almost ALL of these hence its lack of praise and success. If MMORPGers wanted a straight dungeon crawl we could all just play Diablo.
Death penalties do not make a game "hard" they make it frustrating if they are to harsh and trivial if to easy. To harsh a death penalty and you change your playstyle and become to cautious because death is feared to an extream. To light and it doesn't matter if you die. You become wreckless and indifferent. I support death penalties but they need to be balanced.
Some servers could be 'hard' without every server been hard IMO.
Personnally, I state it to a point many must be tired, if there is a non-raiding and fully PvE server, I will gleefully try Vanguard, but under raiding or PvP rules, forget me.
*grin evilly* I am adamant on this, I know what I want (LDoN) and what I don't want (SoV).
PS: Although there was officially raiding in LDoN, it was glitched and bogged to a point that even TR didn't raid it, which because I am evil and enjoying to see raiders unhappy and bitching bring me lot of pleasure...honestly it make me dream and believe for the scope of a moment...up to the GoD expansion.
PPS: TR stand for Township Rebllion, Township Rebellion is like FoH and AL, less whiny, more efficient and more arrogants...and they didn't turn their back on a game 100% commited to them for childish reasons. It collect the uber players from all servers, make it very mature and serious, yet extremely harsh and unfriendly...it is the ultimate becoming of the uber guilds...of course I am talking of the Legends era, not the Luclin era which at best is to the Romans what the Byzantines were...at best...I am not even sure the Luclin era could qualify to be considered like the Byzantines era...anyway...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Hard is one thing. Busting the players ass at every step is another. A game being "hard" is pretty subjective given the person. That said, the more I read about the game and the more I hear the EQ zealots drool over it. The more I don't want to play it. Sounds to me like they're setting MMOs back 6 years with this game. Yes yes, I know it looks nice (If not plasticy) and there's a ton of neat stuff thrown in to make you think it's not EQ. It's still gonna boil down to a pain in the ass to play. One reason why I quit playing EQ was it felt like a freaking job after a while. Took forever to do anything and a wipe meant you had lost hours of play-time. Forgive me for being a sissy, but I play to ahve fun and get stuff done. Not fucking-about trying to get my corpse back from some hell-hole.
Your not a "sissy" for keeping a game in perspective. I have an issue with the whole "hardcore" player vs. "casual" player. I consider myself a casual player and I play L2. The game that everyone says you need to give your life to. Now if I tried to hit 60 (not cap) in two months like a guildie, I would need to live on the game. I play a few hours at most a day often missing days at a time and often whole weekends. I have kids and career. Sure my main is only in his 40's BUT I have run around all of the world I could, I have tons of money. I have top in gear in both D and C for all my toons. (1 C Grader - level 40's, 3 D graders (level 20's and 30s and a few No graders - under level 20) I have had a rich experience because I don't drive myself obsessively like a slave to the game.
I've never "botted" or even sold anything AFK. I find the market easy to make money in and the community very helpful. My guild has helped along here and there but thats what guilds are for in games.
I've been to a few seiges lately and they are cool, I haven't done any of the real high level stuff but I might get to it.
All this "hardcore" vs " casual" talk is really only about people racing to cap or playing for unhealthy amounts of time vs people who don't.
All games are casual.
I've raided in WoW, did the PvP in WoW to captain, I've been a Guild Master in DAoC and taken keeps on the BG's, maxed out toons in many of the games I played, been there done it all playing casual a few hours a day a most.
I probably won't cap in L2, other games are on the way that I want to try. All I want to do is see most of the map, see the big bad dragon and bring one toon from each race to level 30 so I get a feel for each of them. I'm about half done. I should finish up before July
Its all about your personal play experience. I'm bored with grinding. I'm hoping something soon offers a focus on something else besides.
Originally posted by baldrian EQ wasn’t hard. EQ was easy, the people who claim to be hardcore are furthest from it. Most of the people here never played HARD mmos, like ffxi and L2. Its silly when i see someone saying "mmos are to easy" when most of them are currently playing WoW (LOL). Bottom line, there are hard games out but most of you people arent ready for one... so you come here and try to hide... so what happens if VG is hard? back to WoW you go.
Lineage 2 is hard? The only thing about that game that is hard is staying awake to grind. Hard.....rofl.
Originally posted by phosphoros Hard is one thing. Busting the players ass at every step is another. A game being "hard" is pretty subjective given the person. That said, the more I read about the game and the more I hear the EQ zealots drool over it. The more I don't want to play it. Sounds to me like they're setting MMOs back 6 years with this game. Yes yes, I know it looks nice (If not plasticy) and there's a ton of neat stuff thrown in to make you think it's not EQ. It's still gonna boil down to a pain in the ass to play. One reason why I quit playing EQ was it felt like a freaking job after a while. Took forever to do anything and a wipe meant you had lost hours of play-time. Forgive me for being a sissy, but I play to ahve fun and get stuff done. Not fucking-about trying to get my corpse back from some hell-hole. Same shit, different foot.
yeah your not a sissy for liking more casual friendly games, some people like this style of game and some people don't.
but just because its not your type of game doesn't mean its being set back six years, just like Anofalye thinks every single game that has raiding is a failure or its a failure because it isn't being made to fit his play style.
this isn't meant as a flame just my honest opinion.
This *hard* you speak of... citing L2, and FF xi...THAT hard, is hours upon hours of boring grinding... hard you say? no. its not.. its just repetitive and boring. Vangaurd is going to be *challenging*
Originally posted by angerr Originally posted by phosphoros Hard is one thing. Busting the players ass at every step is another. A game being "hard" is pretty subjective given the person. That said, the more I read about the game and the more I hear the EQ zealots drool over it. The more I don't want to play it. Sounds to me like they're setting MMOs back 6 years with this game. Yes yes, I know it looks nice (If not plasticy) and there's a ton of neat stuff thrown in to make you think it's not EQ. It's still gonna boil down to a pain in the ass to play. One reason why I quit playing EQ was it felt like a freaking job after a while. Took forever to do anything and a wipe meant you had lost hours of play-time. Forgive me for being a sissy, but I play to ahve fun and get stuff done. Not fucking-about trying to get my corpse back from some hell-hole. Same shit, different foot.yeah your not a sissy for liking more casual friendly games, some people like this style of game and some people don't.but just because its not your type of game doesn't mean its being set back six years, just like Anofalye thinks every single game that has raiding is a failure or its a failure because it isn't being made to fit his play style. this isn't meant as a flame just my honest opinion.
Well, I probably shouldn't have said the 6 years comment and I apologize for it. It was a bit abrasive. I guess what I meant was Brad & Co. seem to be using the same EQ formula again. Trying to recapture that EQ "magic". I jsut don't think it'll work. Also, it's not that I like more casual games (If this means less hard, if we've even got a real definition of hard yet). I just can't stand the grinding bullshit. If that makes it more casual (as a stereotype) then I suppose I am a Casual gamer. Heh, all i know is I'm getting mroe and more confused on what the hell I am as more and more stereotyping and branding comes out. Why can't I just be an MMO Gamer? Carebear, hardcore player, ganker, PKer, Casual, newb, etc....
Originally posted by phosphoros Originally posted by angerr Originally posted by phosphoros Hard is one thing. Busting the players ass at every step is another. A game being "hard" is pretty subjective given the person. That said, the more I read about the game and the more I hear the EQ zealots drool over it. The more I don't want to play it. Sounds to me like they're setting MMOs back 6 years with this game. Yes yes, I know it looks nice (If not plasticy) and there's a ton of neat stuff thrown in to make you think it's not EQ. It's still gonna boil down to a pain in the ass to play. One reason why I quit playing EQ was it felt like a freaking job after a while. Took forever to do anything and a wipe meant you had lost hours of play-time. Forgive me for being a sissy, but I play to ahve fun and get stuff done. Not fucking-about trying to get my corpse back from some hell-hole. Same shit, different foot.yeah your not a sissy for liking more casual friendly games, some people like this style of game and some people don't.but just because its not your type of game doesn't mean its being set back six years, just like Anofalye thinks every single game that has raiding is a failure or its a failure because it isn't being made to fit his play style. this isn't meant as a flame just my honest opinion. Well, I probably shouldn't have said the 6 years comment and I apologize for it. It was a bit abrasive. I guess what I meant was Brad & Co. seem to be using the same EQ formula again. Trying to recapture that EQ "magic". I jsut don't think it'll work. Also, it's not that I like more casual games (If this means less hard, if we've even got a real definition of hard yet). I just can't stand the grinding bullshit. If that makes it more casual (as a stereotype) then I suppose I am a Casual gamer. Heh, all i know is I'm getting mroe and more confused on what the hell I am as more and more stereotyping and branding comes out. Why can't I just be an MMO Gamer? Carebear, hardcore player, ganker, PKer, Casual, newb, etc....
fair enough, to me...casual = less time consuming not easy, but for whatever reason the most casual mmo's i have played (wow&GW) have also been the easiest but i haven't played them all.
i don't see why a difficult mmo couldn't be made that isn't so time consuming other than the fact that these games need to be a timesink, otherwise people get board with it to fast.....and stop paying that precious monthly subscription lol
but yeah i agree... i hate the labels to, i love all types of mmo's, i like pve and pvp games, i like casual and hardcore type games, i like to raid,group, and solo....what label do i fall under?
Originally posted by angerr but yeah i agree... i hate the labels to, i love all types of mmo's, i like pve and pvp games, i like casual and hardcore type games, i like to raid,group, and solo....what label do i fall under?
-click it? oh no..seems hard...ok did it now what?
-do it 23,436,528 times
-wow that sounds pretty hard...what else is there to do in this game
-nothing
-sounds HARD
That describes EVERY MMORPG.
What he is saying in L2 is that you dont get led by the nose and everyone doesn't get to reach cap/get all the uber loot in the game. I'm not sure if the OP actually plays L2 but it is difficult in a different way then something like WoW. The level mechanic is exactly the same. Go kill mobs rinse, repeat. They are ALL the same.
(I played WoW about 1 year and have been playing L2 for about 6 months now)
Yes L2 has a long grind but its not as bad as non-players would have you believe. The economy is very tough and you need to learn it or you will never have uber gear. (don't even bring up the laim bot/farmer issue because that also exsist in ALL MMORPG's and if the farmer can find a way to farm in Vanguard they will come because the weak/lazy MMORPG community DEMANDS them and their service, just see WoW as proof)
L2 and WoW are build on two completely different design philosophies.
WoW is built on accessability
L2 is build on Competition
Apples and Oranges. Both great games in their own right.
In L2 you better make friends or you will not get far. Unlike WoW which will allow you to solo/not socialize throughout your leveling portion of the game.
I hope vanguard will be hard... But what i mean by hard is that it won't let you progress and reach cap, get a good end game guild, get the good gear etc. if you're an ass and don't improve your skills and gameplay as you yourself progress. L2 and ffxi were both mentionned, and though i havent played L2, i can assure everyone out there that ffxi is hard in that sense. I quit a while ago since that "hard" feeling though has vanished (they reduced the lvl cap and now everyone gets by chosing easy to get grps jobs( classes are called job in that one) and jobs that get you good end game guilds (linkshells) etc. Basically, ffxi has become extremely gimped), i.e. everyone gets by now
Back then though, if you sucked and didnt spend enough time farming to get decent gear, you could forget xp groups invites, unless your job was one that was always easily picked (yes there were big lows in ffxi), if you sucked and didnt improve or simply were an ass you would be left out. Ffxi was a hard game, and you had to grind your ass to get what you wanted.
If Vanguard puts as much importance in building e-relationships as ffxi did, then its gonna be hard. If on the contrary you can do everything on your own or with a very few people and not exactly the more skilled (gimps), then vanguard will be an easy game like Wow (which is fun though i admit).
To those who repeatedly claim that ffxi isnt hard or lacks interest or w/e, i will say the thing everyone says: you never had a lvl 75 char. and never did end game. Yes ffxi's end game is getting old fast for reasons that only those who played that far understand, but it used to be a great, hard game.
I can only hope Vanguard will filter the gimps and let people who focus on their A-game and are actual nice people get all the juice out of it. And i repeat, wow is easy, if you only played wow in your life as far as mmos are concerned, you know nothing and you need to adopt a questionning attitude and not an affirming one.
Its realy hard to say which MMO is hard and which is not. The whole concept varies from person to person. For me, the hard MMO is where your reaction, your aim and your quick thinking result in a win or loss. Even a simple (by simple i mean not many game skills take place in a combat situation) game like EQ1 can be considered hard becuase when u raid, there are many things that can go right and wrong. Main tank may die becuase cleric fumbled with healing and druid rooted himself (yet again!), its the skill of pushing the right skill/spell at the right moment. But games like EQ are mostly strategical, not tactical.
Strategy is the big plan, how you win a war. Tactics, is how you win a single fight. Games like EQ, where there is little tactics but a lot of strategy dont strike me as a hard game becuase you cant really influence the strength of your hit, the chance of your hit, where you hit, your chances at dodging enemy strikes/spells... Its like playing in a casino... u pull the lever... and if u win, you get cash, if not, u lose cash. It kinda simulates like you have controll of it, but u dont really have full control.
The true "hard" games are games like Planetside, where there are no resistances, no "freak" random chances of criticals or misses. You miss becuase you aim bad, you kill becuase you aim good. I hear Roma Victor (i think thats the game) may practice this approach, where your skill playes a major role i nthe outcome of battle, not the fact that your enemy resisted your spell 5 times in a row just becuase it rolled high and u didnt...Games like L2, WoW, EQ and pretty much all MMORPGs arent hard, they are just time consuming. Becuase if your lucky, and the mob doesnt resist, you can kill a mob of superior strength.
I guess what im trying to say, hard games are those that makes it hard for u to play NOT by computer generated chance, but by your own skills.
Aside from EVE, this is the only game I've really been looking forward to, so I hope it lives up to its promise. I hope the complexity of the system adds a depth that is lacking in most fantasy MMOs and gives greater room for unique characters, as opposed to the cookie cutter ones you get in games like WoW and EQ II.
-Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
To me the combat is what makes a game hard or not. If a game has good variety of combat skills and moves that you can initiate during the course of combat with well balanced mobs that's one thing in an MMORPG that would keep me interested. Also with the combat, i wonder if it possible to make that AI harder/better on some servers as well as maybe death penalty's, therefore catering for a broader variety of what gamers are looking for.
Maybe it would be too hard to incorporate something like this, but i would be interested to hear peoples thoughts.
I dont know bout the rest of the group here, but I for one have been dieing for a challenge in a MMO ever since I left EQ (SOL and beyond ruined that game). I want difficult corpse reterival, I want long boss encounters, and I want really nice items from bosses to come down slow and for the "epic" quests to be really long (talking weeks long). Yeah....Im so ready..
Originally posted by Vistrix I dont know bout the rest of the group here, but I for one have been dieing for a challenge in a MMO ever since I left EQ (SOL and beyond ruined that game). I want difficult corpse reterival, I want long boss encounters, and I want really nice items from bosses to come down slow and for the "epic" quests to be really long (talking weeks long). Yeah....Im so ready..
I think it would be great to have several types of servers beyond PVP, PVE and RP servers. There should be: - casual servers: - x1 XP modifier - x1 Loot Modifier - medium servers: - x 0.25 XP modifier (xp is 4 times harder to gain then on casual servers) - x 2 Loot Modifier ( loot is twice as better as on casual servers) - hardcore servers: - x 0.1 XP modifier ( xp is 10 times harder to gain ) - x 5 Loot modifier ( loot is 5 times better/drops more often) You could add more effects to all those servers, harsher death penalties, even permadeath on super hardcore servers, stuff like that. This alone should please a much broader crowd of players, everyone including casuals and hardcore players. And its so easy to do, there isnt much more coding except change core values in the database, loot is X number multipled by that modifier, chances are Y divided by modifier. Other factors like permadeath may be harder to code in, but not impossible to do. I wonder why this method is almost never used.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Originally posted by VistrixI dont know bout the rest of the group here, but I for one have been dieing for a challenge in a MMO ever since I left EQ (SOL and beyond ruined that game). I want difficult corpse reterival, I want long boss encounters, and I want really nice items from bosses to come down slow and for the "epic" quests to be really long (talking weeks long). Yeah....Im so ready.. I think it would be great to have several types of servers beyond PVP, PVE and RP servers. There should be: - casual servers: - x1 XP modifier - x1 Loot Modifier- medium servers: - x 0.25 XP modifier (xp is 4 times harder to gain then on casual servers) - x 2 Loot Modifier ( loot is twice as better as on casual servers)- hardcore servers: - x 0.1 XP modifier ( xp is 10 times harder to gain ) - x 5 Loot modifier ( loot is 5 times better/drops more often)You could add more effects to all those servers, harsher death penalties, even permadeath on super hardcore servers, stuff like that. This alone should please a much broader crowd of players, everyone including casuals and hardcore players. And its so easy to do, there isnt much more coding except change core values in the database, loot is X number multipled by that modifier, chances are Y divided by modifier. Other factors like permadeath may be harder to code in, but not impossible to do. I wonder why this method is almost never used.
great ideas, the only issue i have with that is ballancing....if the loot is 5x better on a hard server they would have to adjust the content as well, making the mobs 5x harder to kill since the loot is 5x better, if you get what I'm saying.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 I think it would be great to have several types of servers beyond PVP, PVE and RP servers. There should be: - casual servers: - x1 XP modifier - x1 Loot Modifier - medium servers: - x 0.25 XP modifier (xp is 4 times harder to gain then on casual servers) - x 2 Loot Modifier ( loot is twice as better as on casual servers) - hardcore servers: - x 0.1 XP modifier ( xp is 10 times harder to gain ) - x 5 Loot modifier ( loot is 5 times better/drops more often) You could add more effects to all those servers, harsher death penalties, even permadeath on super hardcore servers, stuff like that. This alone should please a much broader crowd of players, everyone including casuals and hardcore players. And its so easy to do, there isnt much more coding except change core values in the database, loot is X number multipled by that modifier, chances are Y divided by modifier. Other factors like permadeath may be harder to code in, but not impossible to do. I wonder why this method is almost never used.
I think the main reason that current generation MMORPG's don't offer all these different sub-sets of rules for servers is because you are talking hundreds of pieces of hardware for a single "server" world. It's not like these "servers" are your single-box type servers that most of us are familiar with in most companies/schools IT dept.
In order to justify the money for additional hardware they need to attract a full server-load of subscribers. If the current rule-set servers are crowded, then that's the ruleset they will use when they add more servers. The rule-sets like you mentioned I think would be fun to try for awhile, but not sure if they would have the staying power to justify that much hardware investment for a "gamble". Devs. usually stick with what they know works for additional servers. Usually PVP and Roleplay, after that it becomes a bit more dicey.
Originally posted by dragonace Originally posted by jimmyman99
I think the main reason that current generation MMORPG's don't offer all these different sub-sets of rules for servers is because you are talking hundreds of pieces of hardware for a single "server" world. It's not like these "servers" are your single-box type servers that most of us are familiar with in most companies/schools IT dept.
In order to justify the money for additional hardware they need to attract a full server-load of subscribers. If the current rule-set servers are crowded, then that's the ruleset they will use when they add more servers. The rule-sets like you mentioned I think would be fun to try for awhile, but not sure if they would have the staying power to justify that much hardware investment for a "gamble". Devs. usually stick with what they know works for additional servers. Usually PVP and Roleplay, after that it becomes a bit more dicey.
I understand what you mean, but I disagree with you that it will be a gamble to implement those rule sets on different servers. I do realize that each ruleset means a separate seerver, and with each server expences increase... but, imagine a game like Eve, designed for a specific crowd, have a 2nd server with open PvP only allowed in 0.0 space ( if you are not familiar with Eve, this example basicaly restricts PvP more, but does not com,pletely eliminate it). That 2nd server will increase expences, but at the same time I bet a lot of solo/casual players would jump into Eve immediately to try out Eve with new rulesets. Some of those people would not like it, but i bet others (like myself) would and stay. The biggest turn off for players in Eve right now is indeed open PvP in 0.4 and below systems (half of the universe) thus pretty much restricting soloers and small corps from experiencing half of Eve's content.
I think this is a good example of what im trying to say - if one game has several servers with different rulesets (beyond the PvP, PvE and RP servers, which doesnt really change mechanics of the game, but rather tries to enforce player behaviour specific way) then that game will attract many more players then if it would of had just one or 2 servers ( PvP, PvE and/or RP). Those players who were attracted only becuase they could play this game the way they like it ( solo, group, raid or whatever ) would be more then enough to compensate for the server expences, unless the game is crap of course.
great ideas, the only issue i have with that is ballancing....if the loot is 5x better on a hard server they would have to adjust the content as well, making the mobs 5x harder to kill since the loot is 5x better, if you get what I'm saying.
yes of course, those numbers would have to be balanced, and the content as well as you said. Grouping server would automaticaly make mobs much harder, not soloable at all OR at least not feasable for soloing ( meaning you COULD kill 1 mob for a quick quest, if you dont want to wait for a group, but you wouldnt level nearly as effective as if u were grouped ).
Of course this idea needs a lot of discussion, thought and probably more balancing and testing. but as long as some of the devs actually read this, listen to what players and potential customers realy want from their game, as long as they TRY to change the way MMORPG games work, then that will make me happy, and one day, one of the devs will make the right change to the game and we will have another kickass hit on our hands to fulfill our fantasies and dreams.
Comments
Heh, rereading the thread let me restate:
I want a challenge from a game, but not constant frustration.
I want to have to think to advance (not strictly levels, but rank, or missions or something that is about story and such not about getting the next uber thing).
I want to be able to do things with my guild still half drunk at 3am after the bar.
Right now that means EQ2. There are some decent puzzels (though not alot). Character advancment as well as writs or pure storyline quests are interesting (if nothing else EQ2 has a lot of lore now). And I can harvest and attempt to finish collections while just sober enough to add ? drops to my collection while my couch is full of people passed out mid movie.
"Hard" changes at any given time and isn't a good word to describe any MMO. PSO was hard as heck if you didn't have good drops, but overall teh game was simplistic...UO was the same, it was only hard when you were a target if lots of people liked you it actually got boring.
So, I guess I am not readyt for a hard MMO, just one that lets me do differnt things dependant on my goal. I don't expect flabergasting things, just a good puzzle now and then, or something to do simply to ki8ll time now and then, or something just fun and pointless with guildies now and then.
I am hoping Vanguard can do that...just hope the cheapest edition will provide that
How about instead of "hard"
I want a game that has diverse and dynamic CHALLENGE.
Some people like PvP. It is MORE challenging to fight another player then an AI. (all things being equal)
Some people like to raid. It is a challenge to get a bunch of strangers to work as a cooperative group
Some people like to solo. They feel the challenge is in self accomlishment.
Some people like to craft. contribution/creation and wealth accumulation is the challenge for them.
Some like exploration. Seeing something and checking out every nook and cranny of a game world is the challenge.
Others like quest and storyline - being part of the world and lore.
Leave out any of these and you don't have an online world. D&DO left out almost ALL of these hence its lack of praise and success. If MMORPGers wanted a straight dungeon crawl we could all just play Diablo.
Death penalties do not make a game "hard" they make it frustrating if they are to harsh and trivial if to easy. To harsh a death penalty and you change your playstyle and become to cautious because death is feared to an extream. To light and it doesn't matter if you die. You become wreckless and indifferent. I support death penalties but they need to be balanced.
Some servers could be 'hard' without every server been hard IMO.
Personnally, I state it to a point many must be tired, if there is a non-raiding and fully PvE server, I will gleefully try Vanguard, but under raiding or PvP rules, forget me.
*grin evilly* I am adamant on this, I know what I want (LDoN) and what I don't want (SoV).
PS: Although there was officially raiding in LDoN, it was glitched and bogged to a point that even TR didn't raid it, which because I am evil and enjoying to see raiders unhappy and bitching bring me lot of pleasure...honestly it make me dream and believe for the scope of a moment...up to the GoD expansion.
PPS: TR stand for Township Rebllion, Township Rebellion is like FoH and AL, less whiny, more efficient and more arrogants...and they didn't turn their back on a game 100% commited to them for childish reasons. It collect the uber players from all servers, make it very mature and serious, yet extremely harsh and unfriendly...it is the ultimate becoming of the uber guilds...of course I am talking of the Legends era, not the Luclin era which at best is to the Romans what the Byzantines were...at best...I am not even sure the Luclin era could qualify to be considered like the Byzantines era...anyway...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Hard is one thing. Busting the players ass at every step is another.
A game being "hard" is pretty subjective given the person. That said, the more I read about the game and the more I hear the EQ zealots drool over it. The more I don't want to play it. Sounds to me like they're setting MMOs back 6 years with this game. Yes yes, I know it looks nice (If not plasticy) and there's a ton of neat stuff thrown in to make you think it's not EQ. It's still gonna boil down to a pain in the ass to play.
One reason why I quit playing EQ was it felt like a freaking job after a while. Took forever to do anything and a wipe meant you had lost hours of play-time.
Forgive me for being a sissy, but I play to ahve fun and get stuff done. Not fucking-about trying to get my corpse back from some hell-hole.
Same shit, different foot.
Your not a "sissy" for keeping a game in perspective. I have an issue with the whole "hardcore" player vs. "casual" player. I consider myself a casual player and I play L2. The game that everyone says you need to give your life to. Now if I tried to hit 60 (not cap) in two months like a guildie, I would need to live on the game. I play a few hours at most a day often missing days at a time and often whole weekends. I have kids and career. Sure my main is only in his 40's BUT I have run around all of the world I could, I have tons of money. I have top in gear in both D and C for all my toons. (1 C Grader - level 40's, 3 D graders (level 20's and 30s and a few No graders - under level 20) I have had a rich experience because I don't drive myself obsessively like a slave to the game.
I've never "botted" or even sold anything AFK. I find the market easy to make money in and the community very helpful. My guild has helped along here and there but thats what guilds are for in games.
I've been to a few seiges lately and they are cool, I haven't done any of the real high level stuff but I might get to it.
All this "hardcore" vs " casual" talk is really only about people racing to cap or playing for unhealthy amounts of time vs people who don't.
All games are casual.
I've raided in WoW, did the PvP in WoW to captain, I've been a Guild Master in DAoC and taken keeps on the BG's, maxed out toons in many of the games I played, been there done it all playing casual a few hours a day a most.
I probably won't cap in L2, other games are on the way that I want to try. All I want to do is see most of the map, see the big bad dragon and bring one toon from each race to level 30 so I get a feel for each of them. I'm about half done. I should finish up before July
Its all about your personal play experience. I'm bored with grinding. I'm hoping something soon offers a focus on something else besides.
yeah your not a sissy for liking more casual friendly games, some people like this style of game and some people don't.
but just because its not your type of game doesn't mean its being set back six years, just like Anofalye thinks every single game that has raiding is a failure or its a failure because it isn't being made to fit his play style.
this isn't meant as a flame just my honest opinion.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Well, I probably shouldn't have said the 6 years comment and I apologize for it. It was a bit abrasive. I guess what I meant was Brad & Co. seem to be using the same EQ formula again. Trying to recapture that EQ "magic". I jsut don't think it'll work.
Also, it's not that I like more casual games (If this means less hard, if we've even got a real definition of hard yet). I just can't stand the grinding bullshit. If that makes it more casual (as a stereotype) then I suppose I am a Casual gamer.
Heh, all i know is I'm getting mroe and more confused on what the hell I am as more and more stereotyping and branding comes out. Why can't I just be an MMO Gamer? Carebear, hardcore player, ganker, PKer, Casual, newb, etc....
fair enough, to me...casual = less time consuming not easy, but for whatever reason the most casual mmo's i have played (wow&GW) have also been the easiest but i haven't played them all.
i don't see why a difficult mmo couldn't be made that isn't so time consuming other than the fact that these games need to be a timesink, otherwise people get board with it to fast.....and stop paying that precious monthly subscription lol
but yeah i agree... i hate the labels to, i love all types of mmo's, i like pve and pvp games, i like casual and hardcore type games, i like to raid,group, and solo....what label do i fall under?
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Addict? I know I am.
HARD - a game that makes you earn everything.
Easy - a game that hands you everything.
HARD - FFXI, L2
Easy - EQ,EQ2,WoW,DaOC
-click the monster
-ok i did that now hes dead now what
-do it again
-click it? oh no..seems hard...ok did it now what?
-do it 23,436,528 times
-wow that sounds pretty hard...what else is there to do in this game
-nothing
-sounds HARD
-click the monster
-ok i did that now hes dead now what
-do it again
-click it? oh no..seems hard...ok did it now what?
-do it 23,436,528 times
-wow that sounds pretty hard...what else is there to do in this game
-nothing
-sounds HARD
That describes EVERY MMORPG.
What he is saying in L2 is that you dont get led by the nose and everyone doesn't get to reach cap/get all the uber loot in the game. I'm not sure if the OP actually plays L2 but it is difficult in a different way then something like WoW. The level mechanic is exactly the same. Go kill mobs rinse, repeat. They are ALL the same.
(I played WoW about 1 year and have been playing L2 for about 6 months now)
Yes L2 has a long grind but its not as bad as non-players would have you believe. The economy is very tough and you need to learn it or you will never have uber gear. (don't even bring up the laim bot/farmer issue because that also exsist in ALL MMORPG's and if the farmer can find a way to farm in Vanguard they will come because the weak/lazy MMORPG community DEMANDS them and their service, just see WoW as proof)
L2 and WoW are build on two completely different design philosophies.
WoW is built on accessability
L2 is build on Competition
Apples and Oranges. Both great games in their own right.
In L2 you better make friends or you will not get far. Unlike WoW which will allow you to solo/not socialize throughout your leveling portion of the game.
I hope vanguard will be hard... But what i mean by hard is that it won't let you progress and reach cap, get a good end game guild, get the good gear etc. if you're an ass and don't improve your skills and gameplay as you yourself progress. L2 and ffxi were both mentionned, and though i havent played L2, i can assure everyone out there that ffxi is hard in that sense. I quit a while ago since that "hard" feeling though has vanished (they reduced the lvl cap and now everyone gets by chosing easy to get grps jobs( classes are called job in that one) and jobs that get you good end game guilds (linkshells) etc. Basically, ffxi has become extremely gimped), i.e. everyone gets by now
Back then though, if you sucked and didnt spend enough time farming to get decent gear, you could forget xp groups invites, unless your job was one that was always easily picked (yes there were big lows in ffxi), if you sucked and didnt improve or simply were an ass you would be left out. Ffxi was a hard game, and you had to grind your ass to get what you wanted.
If Vanguard puts as much importance in building e-relationships as ffxi did, then its gonna be hard. If on the contrary you can do everything on your own or with a very few people and not exactly the more skilled (gimps), then vanguard will be an easy game like Wow (which is fun though i admit).
To those who repeatedly claim that ffxi isnt hard or lacks interest or w/e, i will say the thing everyone says: you never had a lvl 75 char. and never did end game. Yes ffxi's end game is getting old fast for reasons that only those who played that far understand, but it used to be a great, hard game.
I can only hope Vanguard will filter the gimps and let people who focus on their A-game and are actual nice people get all the juice out of it. And i repeat, wow is easy, if you only played wow in your life as far as mmos are concerned, you know nothing and you need to adopt a questionning attitude and not an affirming one.
Strategy is the big plan, how you win a war. Tactics, is how you win a single fight. Games like EQ, where there is little tactics but a lot of strategy dont strike me as a hard game becuase you cant really influence the strength of your hit, the chance of your hit, where you hit, your chances at dodging enemy strikes/spells... Its like playing in a casino... u pull the lever... and if u win, you get cash, if not, u lose cash. It kinda simulates like you have controll of it, but u dont really have full control.
The true "hard" games are games like Planetside, where there are no resistances, no "freak" random chances of criticals or misses. You miss becuase you aim bad, you kill becuase you aim good. I hear Roma Victor (i think thats the game) may practice this approach, where your skill playes a major role i nthe outcome of battle, not the fact that your enemy resisted your spell 5 times in a row just becuase it rolled high and u didnt...Games like L2, WoW, EQ and pretty much all MMORPGs arent hard, they are just time consuming. Becuase if your lucky, and the mob doesnt resist, you can kill a mob of superior strength.
I guess what im trying to say, hard games are those that makes it hard for u to play NOT by computer generated chance, but by your own skills.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Aside from EVE, this is the only game I've really been looking forward to, so I hope it lives up to its promise. I hope the complexity of the system adds a depth that is lacking in most fantasy MMOs and gives greater room for unique characters, as opposed to the cookie cutter ones you get in games like WoW and EQ II.
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
To me the combat is what makes a game hard or not. If a game has good variety of combat skills and moves that you can initiate during the course of combat with well balanced mobs that's one thing in an MMORPG that would keep me interested. Also with the combat, i wonder if it possible to make that AI harder/better on some servers as well as maybe death penalty's, therefore catering for a broader variety of what gamers are looking for.
Maybe it would be too hard to incorporate something like this, but i would be interested to hear peoples thoughts.
Vistrix
Nathrac - EQ warrior of old.
- casual servers:
- x1 XP modifier
- x1 Loot Modifier
- medium servers:
- x 0.25 XP modifier (xp is 4 times harder to gain then on casual servers)
- x 2 Loot Modifier ( loot is twice as better as on casual servers)
- hardcore servers:
- x 0.1 XP modifier ( xp is 10 times harder to gain )
- x 5 Loot modifier ( loot is 5 times better/drops more often)
You could add more effects to all those servers, harsher death penalties, even permadeath on super hardcore servers, stuff like that. This alone should please a much broader crowd of players, everyone including casuals and hardcore players. And its so easy to do, there isnt much more coding except change core values in the database, loot is X number multipled by that modifier, chances are Y divided by modifier. Other factors like permadeath may be harder to code in, but not impossible to do. I wonder why this method is almost never used.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
great ideas, the only issue i have with that is ballancing....if the loot is 5x better on a hard server they would have to adjust the content as well, making the mobs 5x harder to kill since the loot is 5x better, if you get what I'm saying.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
In order to justify the money for additional hardware they need to attract a full server-load of subscribers. If the current rule-set servers are crowded, then that's the ruleset they will use when they add more servers. The rule-sets like you mentioned I think would be fun to try for awhile, but not sure if they would have the staying power to justify that much hardware investment for a "gamble". Devs. usually stick with what they know works for additional servers. Usually PVP and Roleplay, after that it becomes a bit more dicey.
In order to justify the money for additional hardware they need to attract a full server-load of subscribers. If the current rule-set servers are crowded, then that's the ruleset they will use when they add more servers. The rule-sets like you mentioned I think would be fun to try for awhile, but not sure if they would have the staying power to justify that much hardware investment for a "gamble". Devs. usually stick with what they know works for additional servers. Usually PVP and Roleplay, after that it becomes a bit more dicey.
I understand what you mean, but I disagree with you that it will be a gamble to implement those rule sets on different servers. I do realize that each ruleset means a separate seerver, and with each server expences increase... but, imagine a game like Eve, designed for a specific crowd, have a 2nd server with open PvP only allowed in 0.0 space ( if you are not familiar with Eve, this example basicaly restricts PvP more, but does not com,pletely eliminate it). That 2nd server will increase expences, but at the same time I bet a lot of solo/casual players would jump into Eve immediately to try out Eve with new rulesets. Some of those people would not like it, but i bet others (like myself) would and stay. The biggest turn off for players in Eve right now is indeed open PvP in 0.4 and below systems (half of the universe) thus pretty much restricting soloers and small corps from experiencing half of Eve's content.
I think this is a good example of what im trying to say - if one game has several servers with different rulesets (beyond the PvP, PvE and RP servers, which doesnt really change mechanics of the game, but rather tries to enforce player behaviour specific way) then that game will attract many more players then if it would of had just one or 2 servers ( PvP, PvE and/or RP). Those players who were attracted only becuase they could play this game the way they like it ( solo, group, raid or whatever ) would be more then enough to compensate for the server expences, unless the game is crap of course.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
great ideas, the only issue i have with that is ballancing....if the loot is 5x better on a hard server they would have to adjust the content as well, making the mobs 5x harder to kill since the loot is 5x better, if you get what I'm saying.
yes of course, those numbers would have to be balanced, and the content as well as you said. Grouping server would automaticaly make mobs much harder, not soloable at all OR at least not feasable for soloing ( meaning you COULD kill 1 mob for a quick quest, if you dont want to wait for a group, but you wouldnt level nearly as effective as if u were grouped ).
Of course this idea needs a lot of discussion, thought and probably more balancing and testing. but as long as some of the devs actually read this, listen to what players and potential customers realy want from their game, as long as they TRY to change the way MMORPG games work, then that will make me happy, and one day, one of the devs will make the right change to the game and we will have another kickass hit on our hands to fulfill our fantasies and dreams.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.