I really find it funny how some people assume, no matter what, that everything bad in MMOs is the direct scheming and evil planning of the devs... Do you really think that all developers just care about money? Well maybe but most understand that a good product goes hand in hand with this.
No I think its the lack of planning of the Devs... not the evil planning.
And no but I do think the thats how the publishers work, because in case you havnt noticed these games are a business. As I have explained before (if you bothered to read the whole thread) I use the word "devs" to combine into a group everyone involved in the production of the game... it saves me having to write Designers, developers, game managers, puplishers, producers etc etc etc...
Arguing that its not the fault of the makers of the game is like saying we dont need a police force in society because its only bad people that commit crimes...
We make laws in a democratic society, but some people break them, so we have a group of people ready to deal with it. Or why bother making the laws in the first place.
My argument begins and ends with the FACT that 99% of MMO's take more time writing the details in to thier EULAS (the laws of the game) than they ever spend policing them. Then people wonder how and why farmers can exist.
Its so rudimentary I remain constantly amazed that people seem to find it so hard to grasp and are so ready to allow the companies that make these games to completely abbrogate their responsibilities to their subscribers in some rabid rush to blame others who are simply opportunists. Opportunists that would not have anything to be opportunistic about, if the $#!%^& game was designed properly in the first place.
Like I said in a previous post... If you saw a tap running in your house and it was flooding your room what would you do ??
Grab a mop ?
Get your friends to grab mops ?
Abuse your friends for not grabbing mops ?
Call a plummer and yell at him for not anticipating your tap being turned on ?
Or turn the fugging tap off ....
Rocket science isnt it ?
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Its so rudimentary I remain constantly amazed that people seem to find it so hard to grasp and are so ready to allow the companies that make these games to completely abbrogate their responsibilities to their subscribers in some rabid rush to blame others who are simply opportunists. Opportunists that would not have anything to be opportunistic about, if the $#!%^& game was designed properly in the first place. Like I said in a previous post...
Yes, because when your buddy cheats in a poker game, you blame the card company or the designers of the game rules. Or when he cheats in monopoly, you blame Parker Brothers. Or when they are using hacks in a game of Diablo, you blame Blizzard. And it's Microsoft's fault that he uses a hack with Age of Empires. It's ID's fault that you're loosing all your Doom games because some schmoe is using some bot tech and a fixed server!
You're attempting to abbrogate responsiblity for the person breaking the EULA, effectively cheating. Remember they are not only breaking the player's agreement with the company, they are breaking a compact by proxy with the rest of the player base.
And mmorpg.com is profiting from encouraging people to cheat against the games, and players of the games, that mmorpg.com 'supports'.
All this dribble about the way the games are developed has nothing to do with my last sentence.
Yes, because when your buddy cheats in a poker game, you blame the card company or the designers of the game rules. Or when he cheats in monopoly, you blame Parker Brothers. Or when they are using hacks in a game of Diablo, you blame Blizzard. And it's Microsoft's fault that he uses a hack with Age of Empires. It's ID's fault that you're loosing all your Doom games because some schmoe is using some bot tech and a fixed server!
You're attempting to abbrogate responsiblity for the person breaking the EULA, effectively cheating. Remember they are not only breaking the player's agreement with the company, they are breaking a compact by proxy with the rest of the player base.
And mmorpg.com is profiting from encouraging people to cheat against the games, and players of the games, that mmorpg.com 'supports'.
All this dribble about the way the games are developed has nothing to do with my last sentence.
The card company and Parker Brothers have no control over the circumstances under which their games are played so there is no comparison.
Yes I blame Blizzard for cheating in Diablo and Blizzard accept responsibility for it everytime they release a patch that stops an exploit. A patch is an admission they screwed up and an attempt to make amends. Thanks for providing me with the best example to support my argument yet... Im dissapointed I didnt think of that myself. The same applies to AOE and Doom. The product is released with loopholes and opportunists exploit them. Are the opportunists to be condemed ? Of course, but firstly lets condem the people who created the opportunity for them to exploit in the first place.
See where you have got me wrong is you seem to think Im somehow in favour of farming or that I dont want to see them stopped or punished. Thats not it at all. I simply dont see why you would focus on the exploiter when if there was no way to exploit in the first place it wouldnt happen.
This so called "dribble" about the way games are developed is the entire heart and soul of the problem.
Ironically enough it would seem I have far more faith in the developers of the games abilities than most of you. I see that they are capable of programming extremely complex virtual worlds and I believe strongly they have the ability to control them a lot better than they do.
You on the other hand see that they can create these worlds but dont believe they have the ability to secure them, nor should they be held accountable for failing to try...
How odd....
As for how MMORPG makes its money.... if you dont like it..... either kick in the amount they are making from those ads or use the door.... another decision that isnt hard to make. Either way at least have the courage of your own convictions.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Has anyone else stated that there is no point to sueing over this. What would the game sue over. To sue you have to have damages to make in real gains, besides a moral victory in court. When the court ask the Developers what money have they lost due to this activity they are going to have to say $0 and infact we have gained from the subscription fees of the gold farmers. Courts are not going to be very willing to reward the developers much money. Then you have the issue of minors clicking the ok on the EULA. Contracts can not be enforced on a minor and now days a minor can get debit/credit bank cards or in some cases game time cards for certain games. In court you could not hold these minors liable for anything that is not a criminal act (breaking a contract is a civil infraction). As stated before it would cost on average $235 just to file an average lawsuit then additional cash to get a case through (Per hour lawyer, copying fees, court fees, etc.) it is not worth it. Why do you think the recording industry has dropped off its attacks on illegal downloaders in courts...it was bankrupting them for no returns.
Also you have to blame the games industry partial along with gamers, if you think this type of action is wrong. UO started what about 15 years ago with mostlikely an average user of 16-24 (just guessing). This mass of people aged got jobs and still wants to play their favorite pasttime. Now the average age of a player is what about 25 or so. These are people with real jobs that take their time yet games still rely on grinding and rely on mass raids/grouping/multi hour quests to get items and experience needed for the end game experience. People with jobs find it a better use of their time to pay what is about one hour of real world work money for what would take 20+ hours of gametime play. When they make it so the casual worker with money finds their time better spent to get the money or item ingame rather than buying it fast. Game developers need to realize that adults with money will spend that money in how best they think will best buy entertainment. Why farm 40 hours doing something most people think is boring when you can just buy it with 1 hour of real time work money and then spend the 3 hours they have to play a night doing things they want to do. That I think is an issue that would help fix farming.
Hey, Razorback... I'm not saying the makers of games should not police their policies. I am saying that no matter how easy it is to cheat, it is still cheating. There is no doubt in my mind that there would be less cheating if the cheaters became honest. (Utopian vision, everybody accepts their roles and responsibilities and fulfills them)
Enforcement is required because of what could easiest be called imperfection. We're not all nice and respectful, and therefore we need somebody to deal with it.
The "fugging tap" of yours, though, is quite an extraordinary tap. It lies, pretends to be a new, non-leaky tap only minutes after you turned it off, so that you'll turn it on, fakes its IP if it has to and conceals its activities as well as possible. (Professional "taps" exist)
And if giving a patch is an admission of failure - what failure are they admitting? The failure to protect us from ourselves? (Us being all the players in one bundle) The truth is a foolproof system is a closed system.
And when it comes to "screwing up" and "failure" - the worst thing you can do is to say "There, now it's perfect, fool proof and eternally secure". People always find new ways if they want to.
Illustration 1: MS06-001 (Google it if you don't know what it means)
Illustration 2: Trend Micro PC-Cillin Internet Security 14 (8.0.1001/3.297.00)
14 would be the program version (14.00.1485)
8.0.1001 would be the engine version
3.297.00 would be the pattern version
The pattern is updated daily because new threats arise. Imagine if they had stopped at 3.250 - we'd all have been hacked to death.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Originally posted by Razorback The card company and Parker Brothers have no control over the circumstances under which their games are played so there is no comparison. Yes I blame Blizzard for cheating in Diablo and Blizzard accept responsibility for it everytime they release a patch that stops an exploit. A patch is an admission they screwed up and an attempt to make amends. Thanks for providing me with the best example to support my argument yet... Im dissapointed I didnt think of that myself. The same applies to AOE and Doom. The product is released with loopholes and opportunists exploit them. Are the opportunists to be condemed ? Of course, but firstly lets condem the people who created the opportunity for them to exploit in the first place. See where you have got me wrong is you seem to think Im somehow in favour of farming or that I dont want to see them stopped or punished. Thats not it at all. I simply dont see why you would focus on the exploiter when if there was no way to exploit in the first place it wouldnt happen. This so called "dribble" about the way games are developed is the entire heart and soul of the problem. Ironically enough it would seem I have far more faith in the developers of the games abilities than most of you. I see that they are capable of programming extremely complex virtual worlds and I believe strongly they have the ability to control them a lot better than they do. You on the other hand see that they can create these worlds but dont believe they have the ability to secure them, nor should they be held accountable for failing to try... How odd.... As for how MMORPG makes its money.... if you dont like it..... either kick in the amount they are making from those ads or use the door.... another decision that isnt hard to make. Either way at least have the courage of your own convictions.
They are not accepting responsiblity, they are mitigating undesirable human behaviour when cost effective.
Just to be clear, I'm not condemning the developer nor the cheater in this thread, I'm condemning someone profiting from the cheater's activities, and further promoting said activities. This being an organization that purports to support the gaming community.
You're mistaken about what I see, since you cannot know anything about me except what I express, and I have not expressed anything of what you're describing as "You... see...".
I have the courage of my own convictions, as I said on my first thread on this topic, I will no longer visit the rest of the site, except for this thread, until I grow tired of the discussion. At that point, I will evaluate my position and mmorpg.com's support of cheaters and if neither have changed, then I will no longer visit mmorpg.com or any related sites.
Razorback, let me lay it out real simple for ya, even using one of your initial examples.
because you have police in a country does that mean there is no crime????
Its the same situation in MMO's: when most people get caught they get banned/thrown in jail, but then they get out in a year or two/make new account, and are at it again. and the judge can't sentence them for longer(/sue) because the law simply does not allow it. Then there are more professional criminals and these guys do crime for a living, and usually its a lot harder to catch them simply because they know what they're doing...
Yeah that is a good example razor, you hit the nail on the head with that one, you just didn't fully consider it...
BTW please do not put words in my mouth: I absolutely am not excusing devs for responsibility over their service (maybe a better question though would be: are they really obligated to be responsible for each individual person that uses that service... thats a lot of responsibility), i am just saying that, though they may try, and some do try pretty hard, it is near impossible to just make a magic fix to the problem on their side. The beauty in these games is the freedom and community, but with it comes a lot of issues that are not "dev side" but rather human nature- in this case human greed...
Originally posted by Horusra Has anyone else stated that there is no point to sueing over this. What would the game sue over. To sue you have to have damages to make in real gains, besides a moral victory in court. When the court ask the Developers what money have they lost due to this activity they are going to have to say $0 and infact we have gained from the subscription fees of the gold farmers. Courts are not going to be very willing to reward the developers much money. Then you have the issue of minors clicking the ok on the EULA. Contracts can not be enforced on a minor and now days a minor can get debit/credit bank cards or in some cases game time cards for certain games. In court you could not hold these minors liable for anything that is not a criminal act (breaking a contract is a civil infraction). As stated before it would cost on average $235 just to file an average lawsuit then additional cash to get a case through (Per hour lawyer, copying fees, court fees, etc.) it is not worth it. Why do you think the recording industry has dropped off its attacks on illegal downloaders in courts...it was bankrupting them for no returns. Also you have to blame the games industry partial along with gamers, if you think this type of action is wrong. UO started what about 15 years ago with mostlikely an average user of 16-24 (just guessing). This mass of people aged got jobs and still wants to play their favorite pasttime. Now the average age of a player is what about 25 or so. These are people with real jobs that take their time yet games still rely on grinding and rely on mass raids/grouping/multi hour quests to get items and experience needed for the end game experience. People with jobs find it a better use of their time to pay what is about one hour of real world work money for what would take 20+ hours of gametime play. When they make it so the casual worker with money finds their time better spent to get the money or item ingame rather than buying it fast. Game developers need to realize that adults with money will spend that money in how best they think will best buy entertainment. Why farm 40 hours doing something most people think is boring when you can just buy it with 1 hour of real time work money and then spend the 3 hours they have to play a night doing things they want to do. That I think is an issue that would help fix farming.
Excellent points.
Your right about the damages thing. Its the same in Australia, you can only sue for what you can prove you have lost and unless the company could find evidence to directly like cancelled subscriptions of other players to the activities of farmers... I cant think of any other cost they incur from farming. As you rightly point out they actually gain from farming in 99.99% of cases and thats why I argue so strongly that they are unlikely to do anyting concrete to stop it. It just doesnt make any business sense to try.
Also I strongly agree with your take on why people buy the virtual currency and items. Getting them for yourself isnt like a game anymore its more like some human version of a hamster wheel, what sane person wouldnt want to try and bypass it.
I mean I have been MMO gaming since NWN CGA version (thats before The Realm and Meridian 59 kids). Im not currently playing any MMO beause they are all so bloody boring, formulaic and packed with farmers I just cant be bothered. The current crop are about as much fun as chewing broken glass.
I am quite prepared to stand by my assertion that game developers have the power to design and implement systems to stop farming all together, all they have to do is devote sufficient thought to it. Until they do I for one will not support them in their apathy and lack of action when everytime I log into my MMO of choice I see 4 guys called "hsbbbsghr", "yytsdjnmghs", "wwwkjhglt" and "uuaytbdga" the mage run by me within 5 minutes of starting a play session.
The problems are staring the devs in the face, their genuine subscribers arnt happy about it, the MMO community as a whole isnt happy about it, the industry isnt happy about it and by and large the makers, controlers and profiteers of the games stand by and do nothing but collect the subscriptions.
Look at this for an example of the absurdity that is currently being perpetrated in WoW alone.
Dont tell me that cant be stopped.... just dont even bother because if you read this thread I have already posted detailed links to the parts of Ebays terms and conditions that could prevent these auctions with 1 EMAIL from the game developers. Its just not good enough.
But instead of some of you emailing Blizzard, you come here and get stuck into MMORPG.com for being so far down the chain of this problem that I can scarcely believe they rate a mention. Its quite funny if it wasnt so serious. Take this as an example (over simplified I agree) of how absurd attacking sites like this are in this debate.
An MMO game is designed featuring the usual loopholes allowing farming
Farmers move in and begin farming
Farmers begin to sell their ill gotten booty via normal channels
Buyers buy the booty and the farmers make a profit
MMO company sees the farming and continues to accept the subscriptions of the farmers
Farming company uses some of its revenue to advertise its services
Various other companies (like MMORPG.com) accept the advertising
So this thread is about making a case to attack this problem at step 7 !!
Why do I seem to be the only one that thinks there is a better, more logical and sane way to go about this ???
I guess I must be a dumbass.... thats the only logical answer.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Originally posted by Razorback Look at this for an example of the absurdity that is currently being perpetrated in WoW alone. http://search.ebay.com//search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=wow+gold Dont tell me that cant be stopped.... just dont even bother because if you read this thread I have already posted detailed links to the parts of Ebays terms and conditions that could prevent these auctions with 1 EMAIL from the game developers. Its just not good enough. But instead of some of you emailing Blizzard, you come here and get stuck into MMORPG.com for being so far down the chain of this problem that I can scarcely believe they rate a mention. Its quite funny if it wasnt so serious. Take this as an example (over simplified I agree) of how absurd attacking sites like this are in this debate.
An MMO game is designed featuring the usual loopholes allowing farming Farmers move in and begin farming Farmers begin to sell their ill gotten booty via normal channels Buyers buy the booty and the farmers make a profit MMO company sees the farming and continues to accept the subscriptions of the farmers Farming company uses some of its revenue to advertise its services Various other companies (like MMORPG.com) accept the advertising So this thread is about making a case to attack this problem at step 7 !! Why do I seem to be the only one that thinks there is a better, more logical and sane way to go about this ??? I guess I must be a dumbass.... thats the only logical answer.
Wikipedia: The developers of EQ have always forbidden the practice and in January 2001 asked eBay to stop listing such auctions. For a time, such auctions were immediately removed, which created market conditions that allowed a number of upstart auction sites to specialize in this new virtual economy.
2. Game companies lose exponentially more in the end from farming, and they know it, they just can't prove it to the courts, which was what i posted a few pages back if you'd bothered reading them..
3. Blizzard is one of the largest advocates against the secondary market..
I am quite prepared to stand by my assertion that game developers have the power to design and implement systems to stop farming all together, all they have to do is devote sufficient thought to it.
I'm not convinced. How about you develop such a game. Prove it. Don't stand by and whine about someone else not doing it right, do it right yourself. Show the way. Be a leader, not an armchair quarterback.
Until you can do that, or you've walked a mile in the game developer's shoes, so to speak, then you know not of which you speak.
If you don't have the funds to create the game, then create a fully realized document (such as an architecture or design document) that describes the game that you would build that would prevent such activity.
Until you do at least that, and have it held up to the cold hard light of peer validation, then you're just posturing...
Your copping out of the debate with that as a closer is almost convincing...
Almost....
But not quite.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Your copping out of the debate with that as a closer is almost convincing...
Almost....
But not quite.
Originally posted by dunadurium 3. Blizzard is one of the largest advocates against the secondary market.. 4. LOL you piss me off (no offense,) ~Dunadurium
You make an unsubstantiated claim about Blizzards attitude toward farmers.
I provided a link to substantial hard evidence to the contrary.
If thats the best you guys can do for a counter argument, Im not surprised you find me upsetting.
--------------
Sorry 2 x post.... I guess its obvious why
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
ROFL design a game... Your copping out of the debate with that as a closer is almost convincing... Almost.... But not quite.
I'm not copping out of the debate, I'm calling you on your claim that the developer can effectively design around the issue. Let's see it. But of course you have to design enough of a game to have the issue emerge in the first place.
Or... you could even go so far as to provide a design document which analyzes on a current game, and then add the solution for the problem for that game.
However, based on your response, I'm going to guess that you already percieve it to be hard to do this kind of design work.
Originally posted by Razorback ROFL design a game... Your copping out of the debate with that as a closer is almost convincing... Almost.... But not quite. Originally posted by dunadurium 3. Blizzard is one of the largest advocates against the secondary market.. 4. LOL you piss me off (no offense,) ~Dunadurium
You make an unsubstantiated claim about Blizzards attitude toward farmers.
I provided a link to substantial hard evidence to the contrary.
If thats the best you guys can do for a counter argument, Im not surprised you find me upsetting.
--------------
Sorry 2 x post.... I guess its obvious why
You talking about the WoW / eBay link?
eBay say they'll take things away, and maybe they will. But it is hardly evidence to the contrary. It might be as much an indication that eBay doesn't not live up to promises made about being nice and removing certain "goods". I'm not saying you can't be right, I'm saying I won't call that evidence.
I also note that you do not respond to points 1 and 2.
Point 1 greatly indicates that your "evidence" - if it is what I think it is - carries little weight in itself. If you ask Blizzard what they've done, and they say "nothing", or if they can't say they've asked eBay to stop, then you've got something more tangible. Not that I fully buy Blizzard being one of the largest advocates against the secondary market either. If they're in it at all, it is all to natural to claim to be among the largest, most determined or otherwise best.
2. Potentially harmful effects of gold-selling.
The creation of an elite that, due to purchase of large amounts of gold - possibly from several sources, will drive the prices of the most desirable items up to a range where other players aren't well able to compete. In a game where you have little or no forced expenses (food and such) you might eventually get there, but on the way you will encounter a large void where your gold can't buy you anything you don't already have, but some people flaunt overpriced items.
The above could lead to envy
Boring gameplay (lingering in one "stage" of gameplay)
Increased grind/work feel (yes, this if also a game imperfection to begin with)
Loss of subscriptions from players who find such gaming conditions boring or unpleasant
Shorter subscriptions from people who hit the top and decide to stop
Measures that could be taken against it at a design level
Limit the economical yield (animals give fur and bone, not gold and gear, a mine runs low or empty when heavily used...)
Take the extreme gear out of the game, or let only a few items exist, being truly unique. You can't possibly go farming a truly unique item from a respawning NPC (it won't happen) and with a severely limited number of overpowered items, they can no longer play a huge role on the mass market
With the existence of truly unique items, I would also require the ability to acquire such an item from another player. This might include support for theft, open PvP - and/or enough reason to fear character death that an opposing player can be intimidated into giving up a possession.
Realistic loot would mean that the highwayman mobs would give you worn weapons and damaged armours, while the crafters would offer you the same items in mint condition. Overall, availability of these items should be high enough that high price crafters will have a hard time selling anything even if people offer gold for real world cash.
However
All that is no reason whatsoever for us not to also consider the rest of the chain (steps 1 through 7). I might accept the notion that the ads come last there, it makes sense. But step 7 is also immediately available for us to take a look at. Furthermore, we expect that the elements in step 7 will listen to us with ears more willing to hear than several members of earlier steps, whose existence is more directly related to what we oppose. (I mean the gold-selling services, the professionals involved and similar entities - those that were explicitly created to take advantage of the secondary market)
EDIT: Extra note:
"ROFL design a game... Your copping out of the debate with that as a closer is almost convincing... Almost.... But not quite."
Note that you could, with just a little thought of your own, at least have come closer to a better answer than "I'm not convinced". I did, and I'm not even adopting the stance that a little thought is all it takes.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Originally posted by Lepidus March Podcast Just thought the end of the interview with Brad might be of interest to this debate.
Thanks Lep, that was great.
It really shows how serious Sigil still is about the issue. Maybe a question specifically about bottom feeding/farmers and their affects woulda been good, because i know they have some plans for that too, but it was still really good.
Hands up if you use google, yahoo or msn to search for stuff on the web.
I do. Just searched on WOW and Guild Wars - they all have sponsored adds from companies selling in game gold, accounts and items for real world cash.
So I suggest that until we are prepared to stop using those search engines we get off our moral high horse and stop bugging mmorpg.com about the add. I think the search sites would direct a lot more people to these companies than an add on mmorpg ever would.
And before you ask - no I have never wasted real money on in game stuff - I have 4 kids to feed and a mortgage. And if I didnt have those money sinks I would still be able to find better things to do with my money like buy more games to play.
Whats interesting is MSN is Microsoft's search engine, and Sigil is the game they are marketing so obviously Microsoft hasn't taken a strong stance on this yet, or Sigil havent yelled at them enough.
Hands up if you use google, yahoo or msn to search for stuff on the web.
I do. Just searched on WOW and Guild Wars - they all have sponsored adds from companies selling in game gold, accounts and items for real world cash.
So I suggest that until we are prepared to stop using those search engines we get off our moral high horse and stop bugging mmorpg.com about the add. I think the search sites would direct a lot more people to these companies than an add on mmorpg ever would.
And before you ask - no I have never wasted real money on in game stuff - I have 4 kids to feed and a mortgage. And if I didnt have those money sinks I would still be able to find better things to do with my money like buy more games to play.
Whats interesting is MSN is Microsoft's search engine, and Sigil is the game they are marketing so obviously Microsoft hasn't taken a strong stance on this yet, or Sigil havent yelled at them enough.
Interesting point Shadowmage. However I contend that it is not Google, MSN or Yahoo's express goal to support the mmo or the gaming community, therefore this conversation has even less meaning to them.
Besides, just because you can't convince 1,000 people of your position/viewpoint at once, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to convince the first one!
YVS is a great company filled with VERY helpful people and great prices on credits.
And I'm not paid to say that.
But if they'd like to throw free gold my way, I'm not saying no
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
This is turning out to be a great thread on this topic, deleted threads aside.
I have posted here on several occasions and my own point is for me clear.
The sellings of goods, services or accounts is NOT illegal, it will never ever hold up in any court of law of wich I am aware.
But, as a fansite and one of the major influences in the MMO world I feel and hope mmorpg.com has not only a moral but also an ethical responsibility.
Intentional or not this place have quite a bit power of and influence over the MMO market and I would hate to see it fall in credebility due to being viewed as a marketing ploy.
I only ask for a place of integrety, a place I can rely on for fair and just reviews,
I do not see this path for gaming sites that care about money first and the reader second.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The greater majority of MMO players purchase gold and other in game items. And sadly the vocal minority has tried to create a controversy and claim they speak for us...they dont.
2. EULA's and TOU are not legal contracts and are solely in place to allow the gaming companies to take away our accounts as they see fit. So enough of these claims that they in any way represent the law.
3. I am nauseated by the recent high horsery going on in this community especially the recent rantings in pc gamer about how they are protecting the gamers from the evil gold sellers and then in the same magazine feature an ad from the SOE operated gold and item selling site. I guess as long as its the game companies making the money then its all ok...
How naive and stupid do you think we are? Enough of the insults and pulpit pounding allready. There are enough rules in this world without stuffing even more of them down our throats in the gaming worlds we enter to escape from this crap. Just eff off and leave us be...
I play MMOGs to escape the influence of money and power that we experience in real life. I like MMOGs because they can allow you to compete on an even level playing field by only rewarding effort.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Buying gold in WoW has allowed me to enjoy the game much more than if I had to scrimp and save and grind out crap to earn it. Best six bucks I ever spent.
It saved me TIME. It saved me B.S. Same reason I pay a guy to mow my lawn.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Sites like MMORPG and others like it featuring MMO's exist because gamers want news, info and community interaction. They can exist because when we come to the site we look at ads which pays the bills.
Magazines about PC gaming also exist to cater to us and make a profit by getting us to look at ads while they provide some content of interest.
And of course MMO's themselves exist because we like to play fun online games, we decide thru our subscriptions the types of games the developers will ultimately make.
The vast majority of MMO gamers purchase currency and items for thier favourite games and have been doing so from the very begining. Buying from friends or anyone else who can provide us with the items we want.
We are the ones supporting the games and related magazines and websites somtimes even gaining tips and strategies from these resources to gain an advantage over other players. We are the real community the non vocal majority who want to continue playing our games the way we want.
Sadly this vocal minority who live for trying to make the world conform to thier ideals is trying to hijack our forums our developers and our games. This will not provide meaning to your life or a sense of accomplishment, that will only happen through achieving success in your work and personal life.
First off how is Buying Gold Not Ethical? That is my first big question to you.
I spend days making money paying for it (Monthly Fee) and at the end I'm not allowed to sell it? Why Not? I spent the time on it.
Here are some games I bought money for:
WoW - Spent about $100 over 4 months on gold. Total Cost ($190 with game and subscription) (Monthly Cost $47.5) I usually buy 1 game a month to play, and EVEN with buying gold I'm under the cost of a game every month. Reason I left: No Endgame.
Guildwars - Spent $10 in gold and quit about 3 days later as I saw how non mmorpg the game was. Worst game ever.
DDO - I've spent money for a 6 month subscription, and bought about $60 worth of gold so that I can spend more time with my family and work rather then wasting time grinding for gold.
Now my question to all of you? How does this hurt you, or the makers of the game? Awnser: IT DOESNT and that is why the companies do nothing about it. Either way i play the game if it's good, I don't hurt you by having an extra healing potion, nor do I hurt the developers as whether I play an hour a day or 5 hours a day as I would have to if I didn't buy gold, I digress that I actually help the developers have a lower load on their servers.
Comments
No I think its the lack of planning of the Devs... not the evil planning.
And no but I do think the thats how the publishers work, because in case you havnt noticed these games are a business. As I have explained before (if you bothered to read the whole thread) I use the word "devs" to combine into a group everyone involved in the production of the game... it saves me having to write Designers, developers, game managers, puplishers, producers etc etc etc...
Arguing that its not the fault of the makers of the game is like saying we dont need a police force in society because its only bad people that commit crimes...
We make laws in a democratic society, but some people break them, so we have a group of people ready to deal with it. Or why bother making the laws in the first place.
My argument begins and ends with the FACT that 99% of MMO's take more time writing the details in to thier EULAS (the laws of the game) than they ever spend policing them. Then people wonder how and why farmers can exist.
Its so rudimentary I remain constantly amazed that people seem to find it so hard to grasp and are so ready to allow the companies that make these games to completely abbrogate their responsibilities to their subscribers in some rabid rush to blame others who are simply opportunists. Opportunists that would not have anything to be opportunistic about, if the $#!%^& game was designed properly in the first place.
Like I said in a previous post... If you saw a tap running in your house and it was flooding your room what would you do ??
Or turn the fugging tap off ....
Rocket science isnt it ?
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Yes, because when your buddy cheats in a poker game, you blame the card company or the designers of the game rules. Or when he cheats in monopoly, you blame Parker Brothers. Or when they are using hacks in a game of Diablo, you blame Blizzard. And it's Microsoft's fault that he uses a hack with Age of Empires. It's ID's fault that you're loosing all your Doom games because some schmoe is using some bot tech and a fixed server!
You're attempting to abbrogate responsiblity for the person breaking the EULA, effectively cheating. Remember they are not only breaking the player's agreement with the company, they are breaking a compact by proxy with the rest of the player base.
And mmorpg.com is profiting from encouraging people to cheat against the games, and players of the games, that mmorpg.com 'supports'.
All this dribble about the way the games are developed has nothing to do with my last sentence.
You're attempting to abbrogate responsiblity for the person breaking the EULA, effectively cheating. Remember they are not only breaking the player's agreement with the company, they are breaking a compact by proxy with the rest of the player base.
And mmorpg.com is profiting from encouraging people to cheat against the games, and players of the games, that mmorpg.com 'supports'.
All this dribble about the way the games are developed has nothing to do with my last sentence.
The card company and Parker Brothers have no control over the circumstances under which their games are played so there is no comparison.
Yes I blame Blizzard for cheating in Diablo and Blizzard accept responsibility for it everytime they release a patch that stops an exploit. A patch is an admission they screwed up and an attempt to make amends. Thanks for providing me with the best example to support my argument yet... Im dissapointed I didnt think of that myself. The same applies to AOE and Doom. The product is released with loopholes and opportunists exploit them. Are the opportunists to be condemed ? Of course, but firstly lets condem the people who created the opportunity for them to exploit in the first place.
See where you have got me wrong is you seem to think Im somehow in favour of farming or that I dont want to see them stopped or punished. Thats not it at all. I simply dont see why you would focus on the exploiter when if there was no way to exploit in the first place it wouldnt happen.
This so called "dribble" about the way games are developed is the entire heart and soul of the problem.
Ironically enough it would seem I have far more faith in the developers of the games abilities than most of you. I see that they are capable of programming extremely complex virtual worlds and I believe strongly they have the ability to control them a lot better than they do.
You on the other hand see that they can create these worlds but dont believe they have the ability to secure them, nor should they be held accountable for failing to try...
How odd....
As for how MMORPG makes its money.... if you dont like it..... either kick in the amount they are making from those ads or use the door.... another decision that isnt hard to make. Either way at least have the courage of your own convictions.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Has anyone else stated that there is no point to sueing over this. What would the game sue over. To sue you have to have damages to make in real gains, besides a moral victory in court. When the court ask the Developers what money have they lost due to this activity they are going to have to say $0 and infact we have gained from the subscription fees of the gold farmers. Courts are not going to be very willing to reward the developers much money. Then you have the issue of minors clicking the ok on the EULA. Contracts can not be enforced on a minor and now days a minor can get debit/credit bank cards or in some cases game time cards for certain games. In court you could not hold these minors liable for anything that is not a criminal act (breaking a contract is a civil infraction). As stated before it would cost on average $235 just to file an average lawsuit then additional cash to get a case through (Per hour lawyer, copying fees, court fees, etc.) it is not worth it. Why do you think the recording industry has dropped off its attacks on illegal downloaders in courts...it was bankrupting them for no returns.
Also you have to blame the games industry partial along with gamers, if you think this type of action is wrong. UO started what about 15 years ago with mostlikely an average user of 16-24 (just guessing). This mass of people aged got jobs and still wants to play their favorite pasttime. Now the average age of a player is what about 25 or so. These are people with real jobs that take their time yet games still rely on grinding and rely on mass raids/grouping/multi hour quests to get items and experience needed for the end game experience. People with jobs find it a better use of their time to pay what is about one hour of real world work money for what would take 20+ hours of gametime play. When they make it so the casual worker with money finds their time better spent to get the money or item ingame rather than buying it fast. Game developers need to realize that adults with money will spend that money in how best they think will best buy entertainment. Why farm 40 hours doing something most people think is boring when you can just buy it with 1 hour of real time work money and then spend the 3 hours they have to play a night doing things they want to do. That I think is an issue that would help fix farming.
Hey, Razorback... I'm not saying the makers of games should not police their policies. I am saying that no matter how easy it is to cheat, it is still cheating. There is no doubt in my mind that there would be less cheating if the cheaters became honest. (Utopian vision, everybody accepts their roles and responsibilities and fulfills them)
Enforcement is required because of what could easiest be called imperfection. We're not all nice and respectful, and therefore we need somebody to deal with it.
The "fugging tap" of yours, though, is quite an extraordinary tap. It lies, pretends to be a new, non-leaky tap only minutes after you turned it off, so that you'll turn it on, fakes its IP if it has to and conceals its activities as well as possible. (Professional "taps" exist)
And if giving a patch is an admission of failure - what failure are they admitting? The failure to protect us from ourselves? (Us being all the players in one bundle) The truth is a foolproof system is a closed system.
And when it comes to "screwing up" and "failure" - the worst thing you can do is to say "There, now it's perfect, fool proof and eternally secure". People always find new ways if they want to.
The pattern is updated daily because new threats arise. Imagine if they had stopped at 3.250 - we'd all have been hacked to death.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
They are not accepting responsiblity, they are mitigating undesirable human behaviour when cost effective.
Just to be clear, I'm not condemning the developer nor the cheater in this thread, I'm condemning someone profiting from the cheater's activities, and further promoting said activities. This being an organization that purports to support the gaming community.
You're mistaken about what I see, since you cannot know anything about me except what I express, and I have not expressed anything of what you're describing as "You... see...".
I have the courage of my own convictions, as I said on my first thread on this topic, I will no longer visit the rest of the site, except for this thread, until I grow tired of the discussion. At that point, I will evaluate my position and mmorpg.com's support of cheaters and if neither have changed, then I will no longer visit mmorpg.com or any related sites.
Razorback, let me lay it out real simple for ya, even using one of your initial examples.
because you have police in a country does that mean there is no crime????
Its the same situation in MMO's: when most people get caught they get banned/thrown in jail, but then they get out in a year or two/make new account, and are at it again. and the judge can't sentence them for longer(/sue) because the law simply does not allow it. Then there are more professional criminals and these guys do crime for a living, and usually its a lot harder to catch them simply because they know what they're doing...
Yeah that is a good example razor, you hit the nail on the head with that one, you just didn't fully consider it...
BTW please do not put words in my mouth: I absolutely am not excusing devs for responsibility over their service (maybe a better question though would be: are they really obligated to be responsible for each individual person that uses that service... thats a lot of responsibility), i am just saying that, though they may try, and some do try pretty hard, it is near impossible to just make a magic fix to the problem on their side. The beauty in these games is the freedom and community, but with it comes a lot of issues that are not "dev side" but rather human nature- in this case human greed...
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
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Excellent points.
Your right about the damages thing. Its the same in Australia, you can only sue for what you can prove you have lost and unless the company could find evidence to directly like cancelled subscriptions of other players to the activities of farmers... I cant think of any other cost they incur from farming. As you rightly point out they actually gain from farming in 99.99% of cases and thats why I argue so strongly that they are unlikely to do anyting concrete to stop it. It just doesnt make any business sense to try.
Also I strongly agree with your take on why people buy the virtual currency and items. Getting them for yourself isnt like a game anymore its more like some human version of a hamster wheel, what sane person wouldnt want to try and bypass it.
I mean I have been MMO gaming since NWN CGA version (thats before The Realm and Meridian 59 kids). Im not currently playing any MMO beause they are all so bloody boring, formulaic and packed with farmers I just cant be bothered. The current crop are about as much fun as chewing broken glass.
I am quite prepared to stand by my assertion that game developers have the power to design and implement systems to stop farming all together, all they have to do is devote sufficient thought to it. Until they do I for one will not support them in their apathy and lack of action when everytime I log into my MMO of choice I see 4 guys called "hsbbbsghr", "yytsdjnmghs", "wwwkjhglt" and "uuaytbdga" the mage run by me within 5 minutes of starting a play session.
The problems are staring the devs in the face, their genuine subscribers arnt happy about it, the MMO community as a whole isnt happy about it, the industry isnt happy about it and by and large the makers, controlers and profiteers of the games stand by and do nothing but collect the subscriptions.
Look at this for an example of the absurdity that is currently being perpetrated in WoW alone.
http://search.ebay.com//search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=wow+gold
Dont tell me that cant be stopped.... just dont even bother because if you read this thread I have already posted detailed links to the parts of Ebays terms and conditions that could prevent these auctions with 1 EMAIL from the game developers. Its just not good enough.
But instead of some of you emailing Blizzard, you come here and get stuck into MMORPG.com for being so far down the chain of this problem that I can scarcely believe they rate a mention. Its quite funny if it wasnt so serious. Take this as an example (over simplified I agree) of how absurd attacking sites like this are in this debate.
So this thread is about making a case to attack this problem at step 7 !!
Why do I seem to be the only one that thinks there is a better, more logical and sane way to go about this ???
I guess I must be a dumbass.... thats the only logical answer.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
1.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everquest
Wikipedia:
The developers of EQ have always forbidden the practice and in January 2001 asked eBay to stop listing such auctions. For a time, such auctions were immediately removed, which created market conditions that allowed a number of upstart auction sites to specialize in this new virtual economy.
2. Game companies lose exponentially more in the end from farming, and they know it, they just can't prove it to the courts, which was what i posted a few pages back if you'd bothered reading them..
3. Blizzard is one of the largest advocates against the secondary market..
4. LOL you piss me off
(no offense,
)
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
************************
I'm not convinced. How about you develop such a game. Prove it. Don't stand by and whine about someone else not doing it right, do it right yourself. Show the way. Be a leader, not an armchair quarterback.
Until you can do that, or you've walked a mile in the game developer's shoes, so to speak, then you know not of which you speak.
If you don't have the funds to create the game, then create a fully realized document (such as an architecture or design document) that describes the game that you would build that would prevent such activity.
Until you do at least that, and have it held up to the cold hard light of peer validation, then you're just posturing...
ROFL design a game...
Your copping out of the debate with that as a closer is almost convincing...
Almost....
But not quite.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
ROFL design a game...
Your copping out of the debate with that as a closer is almost convincing...
Almost....
But not quite.
You make an unsubstantiated claim about Blizzards attitude toward farmers.
I provided a link to substantial hard evidence to the contrary.
If thats the best you guys can do for a counter argument, Im not surprised you find me upsetting.
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Sorry 2 x post.... I guess its obvious why
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I'm not copping out of the debate, I'm calling you on your claim that the developer can effectively design around the issue. Let's see it. But of course you have to design enough of a game to have the issue emerge in the first place.
Or... you could even go so far as to provide a design document which analyzes on a current game, and then add the solution for the problem for that game.
However, based on your response, I'm going to guess that you already percieve it to be hard to do this kind of design work.
You make an unsubstantiated claim about Blizzards attitude toward farmers.
I provided a link to substantial hard evidence to the contrary.
If thats the best you guys can do for a counter argument, Im not surprised you find me upsetting.
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Sorry 2 x post.... I guess its obvious why
You talking about the WoW / eBay link?
eBay say they'll take things away, and maybe they will. But it is hardly evidence to the contrary. It might be as much an indication that eBay doesn't not live up to promises made about being nice and removing certain "goods". I'm not saying you can't be right, I'm saying I won't call that evidence.
I also note that you do not respond to points 1 and 2.
Point 1 greatly indicates that your "evidence" - if it is what I think it is - carries little weight in itself. If you ask Blizzard what they've done, and they say "nothing", or if they can't say they've asked eBay to stop, then you've got something more tangible. Not that I fully buy Blizzard being one of the largest advocates against the secondary market either. If they're in it at all, it is all to natural to claim to be among the largest, most determined or otherwise best.
2. Potentially harmful effects of gold-selling.
Measures that could be taken against it at a design level
Realistic loot would mean that the highwayman mobs would give you worn weapons and damaged armours, while the crafters would offer you the same items in mint condition. Overall, availability of these items should be high enough that high price crafters will have a hard time selling anything even if people offer gold for real world cash.
However
All that is no reason whatsoever for us not to also consider the rest of the chain (steps 1 through 7). I might accept the notion that the ads come last there, it makes sense. But step 7 is also immediately available for us to take a look at. Furthermore, we expect that the elements in step 7 will listen to us with ears more willing to hear than several members of earlier steps, whose existence is more directly related to what we oppose. (I mean the gold-selling services, the professionals involved and similar entities - those that were explicitly created to take advantage of the secondary market)
EDIT: Extra note:
"ROFL design a game... Your copping out of the debate with that as a closer is almost convincing... Almost.... But not quite."
Note that you could, with just a little thought of your own, at least have come closer to a better answer than "I'm not convinced". I did, and I'm not even adopting the stance that a little thought is all it takes.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
March Podcast
Just thought the end of the interview with Brad might be of interest to this debate.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Thanks Lep, that was great.
It really shows how serious Sigil still is about the issue. Maybe a question specifically about bottom feeding/farmers and their affects woulda been good, because i know they have some plans for that too, but it was still really good.
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
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Hands up if you use google, yahoo or msn to search for stuff on the web.
I do. Just searched on WOW and Guild Wars - they all have sponsored adds from companies selling in game gold, accounts and items for real world cash.
So I suggest that until we are prepared to stop using those search engines we get off our moral high horse and stop bugging mmorpg.com about the add. I think the search sites would direct a lot more people to these companies than an add on mmorpg ever would.
And before you ask - no I have never wasted real money on in game stuff - I have 4 kids to feed and a mortgage. And if I didnt have those money sinks I would still be able to find better things to do with my money like buy more games to play.
Whats interesting is MSN is Microsoft's search engine, and Sigil is the game they are marketing so obviously Microsoft hasn't taken a strong stance on this yet, or Sigil havent yelled at them enough.
Interesting point Shadowmage. However I contend that it is not Google, MSN or Yahoo's express goal to support the mmo or the gaming community, therefore this conversation has even less meaning to them.
Besides, just because you can't convince 1,000 people of your position/viewpoint at once, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to convince the first one!
YVS is a great company filled with VERY helpful people and great prices on credits.
And I'm not paid to say that.
But if they'd like to throw free gold my way, I'm not saying no
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
This is turning out to be a great thread on this topic, deleted threads aside.
I have posted here on several occasions and my own point is for me clear.
The sellings of goods, services or accounts is NOT illegal, it will never ever hold up in any court of law of wich I am aware.
But, as a fansite and one of the major influences in the MMO world I feel and hope mmorpg.com has not only a moral but also an ethical responsibility.
Intentional or not this place have quite a bit power of and influence over the MMO market and I would hate to see it fall in credebility due to being viewed as a marketing ploy.
I only ask for a place of integrety, a place I can rely on for fair and just reviews,
I do not see this path for gaming sites that care about money first and the reader second.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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3 simple points I would like to make:
1. The greater majority of MMO players purchase gold and other in game items. And sadly the vocal minority has tried to create a controversy and claim they speak for us...they dont.
2. EULA's and TOU are not legal contracts and are solely in place to allow the gaming companies to take away our accounts as they see fit. So enough of these claims that they in any way represent the law.
3. I am nauseated by the recent high horsery going on in this community especially the recent rantings in pc gamer about how they are protecting the gamers from the evil gold sellers and then in the same magazine feature an ad from the SOE operated gold and item selling site. I guess as long as its the game companies making the money then its all ok...
How naive and stupid do you think we are? Enough of the insults and pulpit pounding allready. There are enough rules in this world without stuffing even more of them down our throats in the gaming worlds we enter to escape from this crap. Just eff off and leave us be...
Interesting.
I play MMOGs to escape the influence of money and power that we experience in real life. I like MMOGs because they can allow you to compete on an even level playing field by only rewarding effort.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Buying gold in WoW has allowed me to enjoy the game much more than if I had to scrimp and save and grind out crap to earn it. Best six bucks I ever spent.
It saved me TIME. It saved me B.S. Same reason I pay a guy to mow my lawn.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Sites like MMORPG and others like it featuring MMO's exist because gamers want news, info and community interaction. They can exist because when we come to the site we look at ads which pays the bills.
Magazines about PC gaming also exist to cater to us and make a profit by getting us to look at ads while they provide some content of interest.
And of course MMO's themselves exist because we like to play fun online games, we decide thru our subscriptions the types of games the developers will ultimately make.
The vast majority of MMO gamers purchase currency and items for thier favourite games and have been doing so from the very begining. Buying from friends or anyone else who can provide us with the items we want.
We are the ones supporting the games and related magazines and websites somtimes even gaining tips and strategies from these resources to gain an advantage over other players. We are the real community the non vocal majority who want to continue playing our games the way we want.
Sadly this vocal minority who live for trying to make the world conform to thier ideals is trying to hijack our forums our developers and our games. This will not provide meaning to your life or a sense of accomplishment, that will only happen through achieving success in your work and personal life.
Our games, our choice, pro gold.
First off how is Buying Gold Not Ethical? That is my first big question to you.
I spend days making money paying for it (Monthly Fee) and at the end I'm not allowed to sell it? Why Not? I spent the time on it.
Here are some games I bought money for:
WoW - Spent about $100 over 4 months on gold. Total Cost ($190 with game and subscription) (Monthly Cost $47.5) I usually buy 1 game a month to play, and EVEN with buying gold I'm under the cost of a game every month. Reason I left: No Endgame.
Guildwars - Spent $10 in gold and quit about 3 days later as I saw how non mmorpg the game was. Worst game ever.
DDO - I've spent money for a 6 month subscription, and bought about $60 worth of gold so that I can spend more time with my family and work rather then wasting time grinding for gold.
Now my question to all of you? How does this hurt you, or the makers of the game? Awnser: IT DOESNT and that is why the companies do nothing about it. Either way i play the game if it's good, I don't hurt you by having an extra healing potion, nor do I hurt the developers as whether I play an hour a day or 5 hours a day as I would have to if I didn't buy gold, I digress that I actually help the developers have a lower load on their servers.