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How powerful should PC's be?

This is a question I have been asking myself for a long time. In D&D in was fine to have your characters save the Forgotten Realms world a thousand times. It provided enjoyment and a sense of having done something good.

Now, with MMO's there are thousands of players on a given server, and given time most of them will reach max level. What is Max level? In EQ when your mage hit 60, you were dubbed Arch-Mage. That's a friggin load of Arch-Mages running about (Arch-Mages who could still do squat w/o a group =) ).

Should the maximum level, be it 50, 60, or 100, ever be so powerful lore wise? Everyone, in most modern MMO's has the potential to reach max level, it all depends on the amount of time you spend in the game.

Can everyone be a Drizzt? A Gandalf? To me this just seems to ring false.

Now, it's true enough that few people are going around soloing Dragons, or Balrogs, but the result, to me at least is still the same.

I was in the auction house the other day on WoW, and noticed that everyone around me was level sixty and toting Epics... it kind of ruins the "Hero Factor" when everyone around you can do exactly the same things you can, when everyone's weapon glows so brightly it makes your eyes hurt.

This is why, when SWG, came out I was so thrilled to hear about their Jedi system (in theory). I thought it was really cool that only a certain amount of people could be Jedi.

On the otherhand, I knew I'd never want to devote that much time to play if I wasn't a Jedi already, and while I thought the concept was great (even though it turned out to be a near endless grind) I never bought the game.

So I guess, even to my own suggestion I am wary. Would even I play a game where I couldn't be the "Ultimate" Hero?

I mean, people pay 15$ a month (sometimes more, sometimes less) to BE the Hero, not to be some rank and file nobody. But in the end, if everyone is the same, are you not that anyway?

This is the core of my post, and the heart of my trouble, below I have delved into theorycraft and wish to label it as such:

-Have a system like SWG's old one, where to become a Jedi/Hero (or open a "force sensitive" slot) it takes a great deal of time and the grinding of a lot of professions.

-Make everyone (at max level) have the ability to become a "Hero" through PvE missions, allow them then to have access to another 5 levels or so, and extra skills. If you embark on the path of the Hero, however, while you're on the mission to become a hero, and while you are a hero, you suffer from a properly instituted system of Perma-Death (even from players, you are perma-flagged for PvP). A sizeable bounty is placed on your head.

-Become a "Hero" as stated above through achievements in PvP. Once again, after becoming a Hero, you are flagged for Perma-Death. A sizeable bounty, is put on your head. Killing a Hero gives you a chance to go on and become one yourself.

In any of these Perma-Death cases, the player would get 3-5 lives to make up for lag deaths etc.

This is what I have come up with. It allows players to go beyond the scopes of normal PC's, at the cost of Perma-Death, and constantly being hunted. Instead of grinding endless hours like SWG, however, a difficult Quest is undertaken, or you match your skill against opponents' in PvP.

Let me know what you think,
Gray Shadow


  • kel11kel11 Member Posts: 1,089

    I agree I have always seen the website for some mmorpg coming out and I'm like, Oh that armor looks really cool.

    Then I get the game, and after a while, everyone has it. I mean I wanted to have that and now I see it all the time, it takes the fun out of it.

    It would be difficult to stop this, probably add tons of high level weapons and armors, etc. More classes would vary the looks, not by much though.

    Change my mind so much I can't even trust it
    My mind change me so much I can't even trust myself

  • kruellkruell Member Posts: 17

    GrayShadow i agree completly with what you have said.. so do many other people. which is why games with perma-death are being developed. I think it's the answer.. only a few very skilled players will be able to survive long enough in a perma-death world to become 'heroes'.

    Check out the game Trials of Ascension, its been in development for a long time, but as far as i know it's still vaporware. Read about the game, i think it's exactly what you want.


  • deggilatordeggilator Member Posts: 520

    A hero is someone renowned for his achievements, someone the community recognises for his heroic deeds. It's not a matter of rank and it's not a matter of having more powerful abilities than the average high-lvl player, so I have to fundamentally disagree with the OP.

    The game system should go as far as providing uniqueness for each character, as well as community tools, such as player-run cities and, generally, player-run content. That's all you need to make heroes.

    Currently playing:
    * City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
    * City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.

  • Mikesta707Mikesta707 Member Posts: 338

    That is a very good idea, and i think it would work If a developer did it write. Like you said, a sort of... ascension when you reach the max level. However, to save people from saying, "Oh, i lost my level 60 char for ever from doing this quest!!! never playing again etc." You may want to have a system where, as you go on the quest, you gain levels, like go from 60 to 61, etc. and if you fail, and use all of you permadeaths then you go back to your original, level 60 self. To save people from saying, "Oh, i dont loose anything if i do this quest except for the stuff i find, so im going to do it as many times as i can, and become a hero" you have a limit on the amount of times you can try. say 3 - 5. This will not only create a more mature section of players that have broken off from the normal batch of people, it will create a type of atmosphere in the game.

    Am I ever wrong??

  • SpiritofGameSpiritofGame Member UncommonPosts: 1,332

    Perma-death is now, has always been and will always be a BAD idea.


    ~ Ancient Membership ~

  • GrayShadowGrayShadow Member Posts: 53

    Originally posted by deggilator

    A hero is someone renowned for his achievements, someone the community recognises for his heroic deeds. It's not a matter of rank and it's not a matter of having more powerful abilities than the average high-lvl player, so I have to fundamentally disagree with the OP.The game system should go as far as providing uniqueness for each character, as well as community tools, such as player-run cities and, generally, player-run content. That's all you need to make heroes.

    I've been playing MMO's for a while, but admittadly do not spend long in the "end game". How does one become famous on given a server? Be the first one to slay this mob, or that? Be the winner of some GM Storyline event?

    Quite frankly I don't think anyone but the person/guild themselves will ever remember that kind of thing.

    Perhaps something different? Like the founder of this city, or that city, or the head of this or that uber guild? Do people get respect for that?

    The only thing I can really imagine people being "really" well known for is either a helpful, friendly attitude in General Chat, or being a complete douche bag, and I don't think that's enough.

    I do appreciate your views on Player-run content, I think you're right on about that, it gives a chance for players to be known, and to have some effect on their world, which is exactly what a "true" endgame should be, altering your world in visibable ways.

    To the poster who said permadeath will always be a bad idea:

    I think your views are narrow minded. The big problem in MMO's today is that eventually they get stagnant with high level/uber bedecked players with terrible economies. Perma-death is a character sink (at it's most basic point), and a reflection of a more realistic (there is no better word, and the "games shouldn't be realistic, they should be fun" escuse is old and tired) world.

    You're right, games should be fun, but they should also be a competitive challenge. If people glean nothing furthur from this post, hear this:

    There can be no great rewards without great risk.

    Having max level and uber items is meaningless, it is not a reflection of skill, or intelligence, or even ability, it's a reflection of how many hours you've poured into the game.

    Forgive the somewhat harsh tone, this is one of the few issues I feel strongly about.

    Gray Shadow

  • brian72282brian72282 Member UncommonPosts: 783

    Well...there is one game coming out, where only 5000 people will become heroes/villains. No, I'm not talking about D+L, I'm talking about Dark Solstice. The first 5000 beta testers will have lore written about them added into the game, talking about their deeds. Good, evil, or just opportunistic, it will be added. This will be both a reward for the beta testers, as well as another way to flesh out the world, and get people interested in it.

    Seriously, how great will it be to walk around as that character and have people either run away in fear, or gather around you, praising your deeds? That to me is something I've waited for, for quite a while :)

  • boeskyleboeskyle Member Posts: 114

    A lot of good stuff there GreyShadow, unfortunately I think the current breed of MMO gamers will find it foreign.

    Only in small MMOs like Hz or server games like NWN persistent worlds can characters get that "heroes" reputation based on acts.  There is a lot of GM involvement that promotes such unique aspects - heroes and villians and others.  This is especially so in NWN worlds.

    As for the game mechanic strength of level 20 or 50 or higher characters . . . . I always found it unimmersive and detractive that characters run around with 100s or 1000s of hp and other "god-like" numbers for abilities.  A group of low level characters, or wolves, should always have a chance to defeat a high level character.  On the flip side are the "epic" monsters to challenge the "epic" characters, as if they sit idly and not take over parts of the world as their own game mechanics allow.

    Stagnation at the "endgame" levels is best achieved by skill attrition, permanent death, and certainly reliance on player skill (to control that character).  This will be seen in upcoming games like MMOCenter's The Chronicle and Shadowpool's Trials of Ascension.

  • seabass2003seabass2003 Member Posts: 4,144
    One way would be to have 100 levels and at level 50 you choose whether or not you want permadeath if you choose yes then you can continue on your uber career but if you chose no then thats as high as you go. This should seperate the normal pc's from the elite pc's.

    In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.

  • KormacKormac Member Posts: 297

    According to the market research done for Adellion there are about 10.000 players who will be wanting to join a game featuring

    • Permadeath
    • Stats that are invisible to ALL players
    • No levels, individual skills advance through use
    • Persistent world, fully player driven within engine and environment
    • Strong roleplay and immersiveness

    If the posts on MMORPG.COM are representative then the market research is wrong. The number of people who would enjoy Adellion would be a lot higher, and somewhere in between you'd find the number of people who knew they would enjoy it.

    Those who say no, they don't want it, are

    • either happy with the current games
    • simply afraid of radical change, even though the current status is dissatisfying

    That last group is large and contradicts itself. What they want can not be achieved without fundamental changes. It may be achieved without permadeath. You know what some of us say: Permadeath can work if it is well thought out and implemented. The same is true for immortality, which is the norm of today: It can work if it is well thought out and implemented. In my opinion, it doesn't work. It is as poorly implemented as anything.

    But as I like to tell people everywhere: It is happening! The game is on the way, and it is called Adellion. I honestly believe that more than a few of those who post their desires for a new genre of MMORPG would enjoy it. I often see features that were practically set in stone at the beginning of development being listed as things people want today. The time is ripe, and Adellion will be coming. I hope a lot of you will be there.

    The future: Adellion
    Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
    Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
    Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
    Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)

  • Tyson03Tyson03 Member Posts: 49
    Powerful enough to run F.E.A.R, lol
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