To make it simple for you lazy boys - If God existed, children would know of him when they are born. And we would have a free will, which we can't have if God exists.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW... It all sucked.
I'm not convinced their is a god, or if their isnt a god. If people want to be truly objective they have to allow for that as a possibilty. Even if you believe in the scientific method it has to be in the realm of a possibility. Of course possible could be 1:1000000 or 1:1 but since we dont know the scale to which the probability is at, its all conjecture.
Just because you cant prove god exists doesnt mean he doesnt. Its the same of those people who believed viruses, bacteria, atoms, quarks, neutrinos, etc, didnt exist when the science was first proposed. These people who didnt believe didnt invalidate their existence . It just took knowledge to bring evidence to light.
Well, according to our, by God stated, laws, that's how it works :P
Please be very aware of the fact that these texts do not represent my personal opinions..
I'm a Zen-Buddhist myself and personally feel that 2000 years of humans tampering with things that give them power and can take it away, can only defile what they have written themselves. Hence the only (only) logic thing I can say about the bible is: "What a load of crap."
Edit: And the ratio of probability of God's existence is 1:2, no more, no less, will never ever be either.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW... It all sucked.
Why did God give man free will? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Look at it like this. There are 2 ways to do something. You can do it because you WANT to do it and you can do it because you are MADE to do it.
I do not know about you but if I do something that I WANT to do I tend to do well in it. I put everything I have into it.
If I do something I am made to do I do just what it takes to get the job done. Nothing fancy on the side.
I think that is why God gave us free will. God knows that 10 men that WANT to worship him are better than 100 men that are MADE to worship him. He gets a better deal this way.
God is not looking for QUANTITY. He is looking for QUALITY.
Thank you
PS: One note on the side, you can also look at it like this. If it turns out there is no God, well I lived a good life. Fought the good fight and when death comes that is it. It's a win - win situation for me, But if there IS a God, I go to heaven and you go to hell. Think about it.
Raven, there's so many flaws to that I can't believe it.
First. For argument's sake lets say God is real. We are all God's children. God loves us all EQUALLY. He does not love you more than he loves me. So, what sense does it make for him to give us free will knowing I will not choose him and I'll burn forever, but you will? In the end he still loses because he lost his child. Someone he loved immensely.
I don't know about you, but I don't want to see my child scream in eternal pain. No matter what. I won't MAKE him choose me, but I won't make him suffer either. Especially when I have the power end his suffering.
Quality is great, but watching my child suffer is far more painful than the joy I'll get from being loved by my other child. I still lose. Hate me if he must, but be happy doing it. I would rather my son be happy and hate me, than miserable and hate me.
10 loving men is not greater than 100 hateful men. In the end God still loses because he still lost 100 of his children. All of whom he loved equally to the 10 he did not lose.
The point IS that God already knows what my choice. He knows all and sees all, remember. He knows every hope, dream, idea, thought, action ect ect that I have ever and will ever have. He already knows what my choice is.
Originally posted by ZivaDomini The point isn't "do I have the choice?" The point IS that God already knows what my choice. He knows all and sees all, remember. He knows every hope, dream, idea, thought, action ect ect that I have ever and will ever have. He already knows what my choice is. So the point is, why create me?
and this contradicts yet another characteristic of god. god is said to be all-loving (or more accurate, just).
How is it justice to create someone when you know they won't accept you then punish them for eternity.
/someone fetch me a bucket...there's god-contradiction spilling out everywhere.
Maybe God does not know. Maybe THAT is free will. We are the only things He as ever created with it. Think about that. J<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I have often wondered why did got make Satan, knowing what Satan would do to mankind.
See, God is all holy. He could not tempt mankind with sin, represented as an Apple in the Bible, but He knew that something like Satan would do it. Gods plan in making mankind included Satan. Satan did not and possible still does not realize he is nothing but an ingredient in Gods ultimate creation, a living being like no other.
God needed the ingredient Satan to make a being with free will.
So you ask why did God make you since you do not believe in him. That is not for me to answer. Maybe you are here to simply argue the other side, without both sides there is no choice. J
Maybe God is not finished with you. You may still have many years of life ahead of you and your day of grace is yet to come. J
Raven, you're looking at it from a human perspective. You're saying "Maybe one day you will..."
God does know. Remember? God knows ALL. It says so in the very Bible that teach you about God. He knows eeeeeeeeeverything. Every.single.thing. Nothing is not known. And if there is something God doesn't know, maybe there's something else God doesn't know. Maybe there's a LOT God doesn't know. Then..is he a God? Or just simply a very powerful being.
And we are not the only thing created with free will. Lucifer, an angel, had free will. They all did. Some chose not to betray God, while others chose to. So, we are not the only things with free will. Also, we do not know what else exists in the universe. There could be other beings out there, also with free will. So, how you can say we're the only things with free will is beyond me.
Also, God created EVERYTHING. Remember? Every.single.thing. Love, hate, pain, joy, happiness, suffering. All of it. Hell too. God is THE creator. Not A creator. THE creator. The one and only.
Also, I think you forgot one point in my previous post. What good am I to argue the opposite side? God loves me as much as you, right? So, what good is it to condemn me and save you? He still loses someone he loves. It serves him NO good for me to argue the opposite side just to save someone else.
To reiterate. The point isn't "will I one day be a believer?" The point is "I will NEVER be a believer, so why make me?"
Originally posted by The-Raven Maybe God does not know. Maybe THAT is free will. We are the only things He as ever created with it. Think about that. J
um..so you are willing to admit that your god is not omniscient? interesting.
See, God is all holy. He could not tempt mankind with sin, represented as an Apple in the Bible, but He knew that something like Satan would do it. Gods plan in making mankind included Satan. Satan did not and possible still does not realize he is nothing but an ingredient in Gods ultimate creation, a living being like no other.
God needed the ingredient Satan to make a being with free will.
It seems you are wanting to admit that your god may not be all-powerful too (a.k.a omnipotent). Are you sure you want to do that?
So you ask why did God make you since you do not believe in him. That is not for me to answer.
I'll be honest with you, I find it very odd that you know enough to know:
* god isn't omniscient (even though something like 99.9999% of christians I've talked to disagree) * may not be omnipotent (even though something like 99.9999% of christians I've talked to disagree) * go into lengths about how and why satan was created and how he relates to freewill
yet your don't know enough to answer this question? Doesn't that seem a little suspecious? I'm sorry, I think your just making ad hoc replies here.
Maybe God is not finished with you. You may still have many years of life ahead of you and your day of grace is yet to come. J
the point should not be focused on me...people, everyday, die who believe in the wrong god or no god at all.
IF you had a free will, you would be able to do what you wanted. However we only have one way we can act, through the needs of the being. Outer sources (And inner such as endorfins and andrenaline, serotonine and so on) changes settings for the situation of which you have to choose. By that you always act after certain conditions.. Psychology wouldn't exist if this was true. Human behaviour wouldn't be a class either.
But let's skip that for a second as we're talking God here... IF we had a free will, we would be able to choose freely what we did in life or not. HOWEVER we have a minor problem called God in the equation.. If God is all and absolute supreme, I would expect him to know his children too, us.
A well known fact is that God knows everything.. We can safely assume that he is forever and not dependant on time, right? (Now why did it take 7 days to create the world then..) So he should know what You as a Christian will do in life. He does know everything if I'm not mistaken? (Kinda the point of being Supreme) Now if GOD knows what YOU will do throughout your life ( God is supreme.. ) Then you have no options anymore, as he already knows it.. (God knows everything)
So tell me, where is your free will? You were judged by God before Adam even was created, as he knows your path, he knows your death and he knows what you will become. (God knows everything, God is supreme)
Edit - And it's Not a friggin apple that Adam ate, stop with that idiocy already!
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW... It all sucked.
I try to stay away from the "if god exists why would he _____" type of questions. Because frankly if their was a god I cant think for him or really understand his/her/its motives. Putting human terms on god and putting it in human perspective might have nothing to do with god.
It would be like using a ducks perspective to find out what human behavior does. Its probably inconcievable to us what his motives, if he has motives, or anything else about what his actions are. Many people use the bible as his word, but throughout the bible contradictions rule the day. ANYONE can read anything in the bible, the inquisition, witch burnings/hangings, crusades, etc etc were all from people who slept with the bible. So the bible proves nothing, except it was written by man.
Now granted if their is a god and their is real godly inspiration behind the bible, that hardly means its a perfect document. It was written by man, it could have lost alot in translation. Also the bible throughout its ages has changed, some of the writers/prophets were removed, some included, etc. Basically the bible is a heavily edited book by man and as such taking the literal interpretations on it are in my eyes not reasonable. The overall lessons of the bible are sound like the 10 commandments, thats far more of a guideline on how to live with your fellow man than a christian exclusive. Especially considering that those rules are taught in different forms in almost all the great religions.
Are you something for me to practice my power of prayer on?
Are you there for me to feel thankful to God that I am not like you?
you believe in a god who is (by very definition) a contradiction. yet you still use that to set yourself above others with the "I'll Pray For You" sentiment. Well, I'll see your god and raise you an invisible pink unicorn...i'll neigh for you brotha
anyway I can't believe how civil this thread has been...in my experience these types of topics usually are reduced to flames within the first few pages...
Originally posted by Sramota By the biggest God worshipping continent in the world (Hence score highest on the biggest brownnosers of God) we have been given the knowledge of the law "Innocent until caught"And as we can basicly prove he doesn't excist, but we can't prove that he does. He is thereby nullified. (Proof: - Is there a God? - Yes. - Prove it.- GOD IF YOU EXCST, GIVE US A SIGN!- [Blank..] - Is there a God?- No.- Prove it.- GOD IF YOU EXCST, GIVE US A SIGN!- [Blank..]
Wow...Your wisdom of thorough knowledge, education, and research has surely opened our eyes to the truth. Because you demand to be shown by God that he exists, and he doesn't listen to your arrogant demands, it must mean he doesn't exist. I applaud your wisdom.
---Edit--- Also isn't it funny how people tend t othink that jesus was tall and white? On top of that - Thing of this, all those who worship God whorship the same God..As there is only one God and all expect to get to heaven..(That and the fact that they all come from the same base..)
Seriously, before you comment, you should do your research instead of just driveling. Here...Lets start with the basics. god Pronunciation Key (god)n. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality. Ok, you got that mentally noted now? Now lets continue. Before the Translation of the Bible over into English, the original texts(What they were written in depending on it being the Old or New Testament), when using the word God, the previously translation was in fact many different words with different meanings. #1 Eloha. Meaning god, a god, or God. #2. Elohim. Plural of Eloha, meaning literally, "gods". And then finally, #3. YHVH, or YHWH, usually in english, "Yahweh". Meaning the most High and powerful God, the creator; the "Father God". The one in the Bible that is considered the father of Christ, the ultimate and omnipotent being. So is there only one god? No...is there only one YHVH? Yes.
Originally posted by ZivaDomini It's already been said that the burden of proof does not fall on those who do not believe, but on those who do.
A random guy on the messageboards says something...And that means it must be gospel! Aghast! You are surely right. Because well...It's already been said. And if you said I was a purple monkey with nerfballs for brains, an antenna for ears, and tin cups for feet, it must be so! If you got anymore pretentious, I'd have to slap you for an overdose of arrogance.
Originally posted by Sramota
----The Bible was written by humans. Hence not valid evidence. Not true. The Ten Commandments were in fact...Written by God! The rest was inspired. By legal standards, there is no proof whatsoever of his excistence.
Always had a distaste for the legal system myself; it seemed everytime you turned around, it was changing what it originally was.
And when looking at the current situation. Adam and Eve - as first generation children of God, could not have been created with anything BUT God's will (For the simple fact that there was nothing else) they couldn't have chosen to eat the fruit or not, due to God's will being the only will. (Yes yes you mention the snake, remember the snake is also first generation and has nothing but God's will.)Hence their will to eat the fruit can only be God's will.
Here, let me try to make this simple. Feh-ree-weeeeelll. See...With God's will, as you so quaintly, and accurately put it. He not only created man, and everything else with his Will, but with his will...He well, willed them, to have a will of their own. Hence free will; and your point being moot and invalid.
On top of that we can first of all not prove any part where the so-called 'evil' would be either.
Free will. It's the choice of two paths. With free will, there always has to be two antithesis choices. The fruit of good and evil being a perfect case and point, "to, or not to".
ON TOP of that, if we listen to God, we only here HIS side of the story, hence he could be something minor in comparsion to the true God. And in that case, you're the one not accepting the ONE God. Good job there.. Really.
And maybe...Maybe, the one above that one, really isn't the ONE God either, and then we'd not be accepting the ONE God, but then wait, the one above that one, that says that he is the ONE God, wouldn't be the one God either, so then STILL, you wouldn't be accepting the one God. Oh my...
ON TOP OF THAT God gave the Earth to the human, however the prosecutor also walks the Earth, assuming he is satan, what would be his wisest move? To pretend he's God. As not even God can question the prosecutor the people would forget the true God and worship the one he or she thought was God. Hence you could just as well be worshipping satan as it is.
Of course Satan will make himself up as a god, or even pretend to be GOD. But Satan isn't a paradox. And will not tell you to, "Forgive thy enemy, and love your neighbor as thy self."
ON TOP OF THAT (Jeebus this is long) we can to 100% prove that no child knows the concept of God.This simply by going to any nature religion culture or whatever, God is not the same thing there.And are a newborn child not the essence of purity? Undefiled and pure? Sure we are born in sin but we need to sin in order to be sinful. And as we know a child is not aware of the concept of God, the whole part of being close to God by not committing sins is also a void argument as not even the purest of humans hear his voice. All in all, summed up, Gods word is the biggest reason for death in this world (TRY to argue against that) also he created death and all that bad bit ( Newtons law - no action without reaction states this) as there is only ONE creator, right?
Errr, wrong. Man created death and entropy when he sinned. If he didn't sin(Newtons law, reaction to an action), there would be no death. Since he did, boom, Newtons law.
And since he is both the creator of life and death, joy and pain, he is also guilty for all murders done to date.
Again...You seem to just be INABLE, to comprehend free will.
With that said, the laws that are, according to the text in the book, stated by God as the judge is only a extended hand of God's will (Read the lawbook) he must also be seen under his own laws.Hence if he did exist he would be guilty of aaaaaloooot of crap by now. But we don't blame him for that, hence he is innocent as long as he is not proven to be guilty of it, and if he created it, he is guilty of it.
Read above... *sigh*
So... God is innocent until caught. and in order for YOUR religion to work with the system you also abide under, God must NOT exist if he is to be all the Good in the world.
By your own pretentious and obviously arrogant view on how YOU think the universe works. But guess what champ, the universe doesn't work how you want it, or think it to works. To put it bluntly...It works how it works.
Originally posted by ZivaDomini
Raven, there's so many flaws to that I can't believe it. First. For argument's sake lets say God is real. We are all God's children. God loves us all EQUALLY. He does not love you more than he loves me. So, what sense does it make for him to give us free will knowing I will not choose him and I'll burn forever, but you will? In the end he still loses because he lost his child. Someone he loved immensely.
See, that's something that many people get tripped on. For one reason... NO ONE"S BURNING FOREVER! Yes, that's true. Even Satan in the end will be reconciled. It's a concept called "Ultimate Reconciliation", and though is not widely accepted, is Biblically accurate.
I don't know about you, but I don't want to see my child scream in eternal pain. No matter what. I won't MAKE him choose me, but I won't make him suffer either. Especially when I have the power end his suffering. Quality is great, but watching my child suffer is far more painful than the joy I'll get from being loved by my other child. I still lose. Hate me if he must, but be happy doing it. I would rather my son be happy and hate me, than miserable and hate me. 10 loving men is not greater than 100 hateful men. In the end God still loses because he still lost 100 of his children. All of whom he loved equally to the 10 he did not lose.
*Points what I wrote above*
Originally posted by ZivaDomini
Raven, you're looking at it from a human perspective. You're saying "Maybe one day you will..." God does know. Remember? God knows ALL. It says so in the very Bible that teach you about God. He knows eeeeeeeeeverything. Every.single.thing. Nothing is not known. And if there is something God doesn't know, maybe there's something else God doesn't know. Maybe there's a LOT God doesn't know. Then..is he a God? Or just simply a very powerful being. And we are not the only thing created with free will. Lucifer, an angel, had free will. They all did. Some chose not to betray God, while others chose to. So, we are not the only things with free will. Also, we do not know what else exists in the universe. There could be other beings out there, also with free will. So, how you can say we're the only things with free will is beyond me. Also, God created EVERYTHING. Remember? Every.single.thing. Love, hate, pain, joy, happiness, suffering. All of it. Hell too. God is THE creator. Not A creator. THE creator. The one and only.
"For the wages of Sin is Death". I'll go over this again to make sure that it is emphasized. God is not sin, God is perfect. So you would say, "Well then...How is there sin then?" God is also not pain, he is joy.
But...FREE will. Free will is the choice of two paths, and always will be. Because of free will, there are antithesis' to almost all things in life. Love/hate, sorrow/joy, life/sin.
Also, I think you forgot one point in my previous post. What good am I to argue the opposite side? God loves me as much as you, right? So, what good is it to condemn me and save you? He still loses someone he loves. It serves him NO good for me to argue the opposite side just to save someone else. To reiterate. The point isn't "will I one day be a believer?" The point is "I will NEVER be a believer, so why make me?"
Everyone serves a purpose in life.
Originally posted by Sramota IF you had a free will, you would be able to do what you wanted.However we only have one way we can act, through the needs of the being.Outer sources (And inner such as endorfins and andrenaline, serotonine and so on) changes settings for the situation of which you have to choose. By that you always act after certain conditions..
Your in open admittance to your outside surroundings completely controlling how you act and behave, thus removing your belief in free will?
Psychology wouldn't exist if this was true. Human behaviour wouldn't be a class either. But let's skip that for a second as we're talking God here... IF we had a free will, we would be able to choose freely what we did in life or not.HOWEVER we have a minor problem called God in the equation..If God is all and absolute supreme, I would expect him to know his children too, us.
Minor problem...Hrmm...uhh. Sorry, you seemed to have skipped explaining that minor problem...
A well known fact is that God knows everything.. We can safely assume that he is forever and not dependant on time, right? (Now why did it take 7 days to create the world then..)
He wanted to...
So he should know what You as a Christian will do in life. He does know everything if I'm not mistaken? (Kinda the point of being Supreme)Now if GOD knows what YOU will do throughout your life ( God is supreme.. )Then you have no options anymore, as he already knows it.. (God knows everything)
He knows everything, so you have no free will...That's such an illogical leap of "logic", that it's a completely invalid point. For that matter, we could say because we in the future(at least in perspective of those to the past), know what those in the past(to our perspective), end up doing. They have no free will.
So tell me, where is your free will? You were judged by God before Adam even was created, as he knows your path, he knows your death and he knows what you will become. (God knows everything, God is supreme) Edit - And it's Not a friggin apple that Adam ate, stop with that idiocy already!
Actually, no one really knows.
Originally posted by Scorpes I try to stay away from the "if god exists why would he _____" type of questions. Because frankly if their was a god I cant think for him or really understand his/her/its motives. Putting human terms on god and putting it in human perspective might have nothing to do with god. It would be like using a ducks perspective to find out what human behavior does. Its probably inconcievable to us what his motives, if he has motives, or anything else about what his actions are. Many people use the bible as his word, but throughout the bible contradictions rule the day.
Scriptures?
ANYONE can read anything in the bible, the inquisition, witch burnings/hangings, crusades, etc etc were all from people who slept with the bible. So the bible proves nothing, except it was written by man.
"Anyone can read anything in the bible...*rant*, So the bible proves nothing except it was written by man." That is one of the most incoherent and nonsensical statements I've seen. And I'm not sure what EXACTLY you were trying to prove.
Now granted if their is a god and their is real godly inspiration behind the bible, that hardly means its a perfect document. It was written by man, it could have lost alot in translation.
Of course it lost alot in translation. I've read an unabridged version of Genesis. Direct translation. Talk about a headache. Of course for research purposes it was great. King James is a good, not the best, but good translation, and very convenient.
Also the bible throughout its ages has changed, some of the writers/prophets were removed, some included, etc. Basically the bible is a heavily edited book by man and as such taking the literal interpretations on it are in my eyes not reasonable.
Haha...Well. Thing is, it's because the Bible isn't a book! It's a collection of books. And for example, there are differences between your everday King James bible, and the Catholic Cannon. And then there are books that have been left out for one reason or another, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Book of Enoch, or the Book of Jasher.
The overall lessons of the bible are sound like the 10 commandments, thats far more of a guideline on how to live with your fellow man than a christian exclusive. Especially considering that those rules are taught in different forms in almost all the great religions.
Christian exclusives are in fact, how you are suppose to live with your fellow man.
P.S. This post may look a little weird, or have a few flaws in it. Transferring it between two browsers, and a note pad, have caused it to look a bit...off.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
I was just thinking about the free-will dilemma, and could alternate dimensions be a valid form of free-will? I believe there are theories out there supporting multiple dimensions, with each dimension being the different outcomes of a particular event. Could this be a form of free-will? I'm just trying to give these Bible-thumpers some decent ammunition against these athesists, because the atheists are tearing you guys apart with logic.
Originally posted by Aldaron "Anyone can read anything in the bible...*rant*, So the bible proves nothing except it was written by man."That is one of the most incoherent and nonsensical statements I've seen. And I'm not sure what EXACTLY you were trying to prove.
Before you start calling things nonsensical and incoherent, perhaps the actual fault lies in you not being able to understand or comprehend what is being said. Its a simple concept really, but if you need a long drawn out explanation so you can understand it, here you go.
My point is alot of people would use the bible to further their own beliefs, motives, aspirations, dogma's, etc etc, no matter how extreme the spectrum is. The KKK, and other hate groups cite passages in the bible supporting their agenda while pacifists use it to support their agenda.
Almost everyone that believes in the bible know that their interpretation of the bible is the correct one. Even between 2 people of the same faith and denomination, each will probably take away a different perspective than the another. So using the bible literally to prove or disprove anything is untenable, because at that point its mostly just opinions. As if thats not enough to dispell its literal interpretation, its also been rewritten millions of times since the dawn of history by man and man almost by definition if flawed. You cant believe everything written 1 second ago, nevermind something written 2000 years ago.
Originally posted by modjoe86 I was just thinking about the free-will dilemma, and could alternate dimensions be a valid form of free-will? I believe there are theories out there supporting multiple dimensions, with each dimension being the different outcomes of a particular event. Could this be a form of free-will? I'm just trying to give these Bible-thumpers some decent ammunition against these athesists, because the atheists are tearing you guys apart with logic.
It very well could, our understanding of quantum mechanics might be that of a flea doing college level algebra. We might never even fully understand our own galaxy, nevermind alternate dimensions.
Originally posted by ZivaDomini It's already been said that the burden of proof does not fall on those who do not believe, but on those who do.
"A random guy on the messageboards says something...And that means it must be gospel! Aghast! You are surely right. Because well...It's already been said. And if you said I was a purple monkey with nerfballs for brains, an antenna for ears, and tin cups for feet, it must be so! If you got anymore pretentious, I'd have to slap you for an overdose of arrogance."
If I said you were a purple monkey with nerballs for brains, an antenna for ears, and a tin cups for feet, would not make it so. However, what would you ask? You would ask for me to....prove it. Meaning, the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim. Now sure, you could post a picture of yourself disproving me from the get go, however that's because it's simple to disprove what is obviously not true.
However, if I were to say "There's a chemical in space that could easily melt any metal in the universe." You would ask me to prove it. You, however, could not simply disprove it. Why? Because then you would have to spend the rest of eternity dedicating your life to finding this thing. Which would make almost no sense at all. It's not your job to disprove my claim until I have tested it. The burden of proof is mine. Not yours.
Originally posted by ZivaDomini
Raven, there's so many flaws to that I can't believe it. First. For argument's sake lets say God is real. We are all God's children. God loves us all EQUALLY. He does not love you more than he loves me. So, what sense does it make for him to give us free will knowing I will not choose him and I'll burn forever, but you will? In the end he still loses because he lost his child. Someone he loved immensely.
"See, that's something that many people get tripped on. For one reason... NO ONE"S BURNING FOREVER! Yes, that's true. Even Satan in the end will be reconciled. It's a concept called "Ultimate Reconciliation", and though is not widely accepted, is Biblically accurate."
That's true. I've heard of this. I even googled it to ensure we were on the same page. I've also read a few pages from random preachers. Many of which who agree that this is simply nit-picking. People trying to manipulate the Bible to mean what they want it to mean. Here's one link in particular. http://www.americaslastdays.com/ultimaterec.htm There's plenty more, just hit up Google. Yahoo.com also has Christian chatrooms if you want to visit those and see what they have to say on it. A lot of them are well versed. I used to frequent those rooms.
Edit: I remember reading somewhere in your post, couldn't find it. You said something along the lines of the Devil would pretend to be God, but would not say "love thy neighbor ect ect." To me, Ultimate Reconciliation sounds like something the Devil would preach. Why worship God? You'll be redeemed some day anyway. Why read the Bible? God will forgive you someday anyway. Why do ANYTHING for God? Eventually, you are redeemed. It sounds a lot like something the Devil would want you to think. So maybe you're right, maybe the Devil would pretend to be God...but would just change it around a little bit.
Now, why do I say everyone will burn forever? Because it's the most widely accepted belief as far as I can tell. You're Ultimate Reconciliation is what a lot of people have on the Bible, an opinion. It's not fact. So please don't pass it on as fact. I brought up the most widely accepted belief of the Bible because it's what the majority agree on. We could argue about Ultimate Reconciliation to no end just like every other religion debate.
To put it simply. I don't believe in God. However, if I did, I do not feel as if I would believe in Ultimate Reconciliation. So no, it's not "True" as you have put it. It's an idea. An opinion. That is not accepted in many groups.
Originally posted by ZivaDomini
Raven, you're looking at it from a human perspective. You're saying "Maybe one day you will..." God does know. Remember? God knows ALL. It says so in the very Bible that teach you about God. He knows eeeeeeeeeverything. Every.single.thing. Nothing is not known. And if there is something God doesn't know, maybe there's something else God doesn't know. Maybe there's a LOT God doesn't know. Then..is he a God? Or just simply a very powerful being. And we are not the only thing created with free will. Lucifer, an angel, had free will. They all did. Some chose not to betray God, while others chose to. So, we are not the only things with free will. Also, we do not know what else exists in the universe. There could be other beings out there, also with free will. So, how you can say we're the only things with free will is beyond me. Also, God created EVERYTHING. Remember? Every.single.thing. Love, hate, pain, joy, happiness, suffering. All of it. Hell too. God is THE creator. Not A creator. THE creator. The one and only.
"For the wages of Sin is Death". I'll go over this again to make sure that it is emphasized. God is not sin, God is perfect. So you would say, "Well then...How is there sin then?" God is also not pain, he is joy.
But...FREE will. Free will is the choice of two paths, and always will be. Because of free will, there are antithesis' to almost all things in life. Love/hate, sorrow/joy, life/sin.
Funny you should say that (For the wages of sin is death.) Because I've met a few that believe that Hell IS death. Not physically killing over, heart stopping ect ect. But that Hell is the ultimate death. You are away from the light of God in eternal torment. You are dead. However, if you are ultimately redeemed, you aren't dead then. You're just, in trouble. So how can you be dead if Hell is not the ultimate death?
My point wasn't does God express these. It was that God created everything, therefore he must have been the ultimate creator of the things that bring us pain. I am not saying he IS sin. However, did he create sin? I do believe he did. I don't consider it sinful to create sin because we do have that free will of choosing to sin or not to sin. You could simply chalk it up to one of God's "tests."
Also, I think you forgot one point in my previous post. What good am I to argue the opposite side? God loves me as much as you, right? So, what good is it to condemn me and save you? He still loses someone he loves. It serves him NO good for me to argue the opposite side just to save someone else. To reiterate. The point isn't "will I one day be a believer?" The point is "I will NEVER be a believer, so why make me?"
"Everyone serves a purpose in life."
That's right, we do. However, is your purpose more important than my purpose? No. If your life more important than my life? No. So, why create me if I am destined for Hell?
Comments
To make it simple for you lazy boys - If God existed, children would know of him when they are born.
And we would have a free will, which we can't have if God exists.
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It all sucked.
I'm not convinced their is a god, or if their isnt a god. If people want to be truly objective they have to allow for that as a possibilty. Even if you believe in the scientific method it has to be in the realm of a possibility. Of course possible could be 1:1000000 or 1:1 but since we dont know the scale to which the probability is at, its all conjecture.
Just because you cant prove god exists doesnt mean he doesnt. Its the same of those people who believed viruses, bacteria, atoms, quarks, neutrinos, etc, didnt exist when the science was first proposed. These people who didnt believe didnt invalidate their existence . It just took knowledge to bring evidence to light.
Well we could be at that stage now.
Well, according to our, by God stated, laws, that's how it works :P
Please be very aware of the fact that these texts do not represent my personal opinions..
I'm a Zen-Buddhist myself and personally feel that 2000 years of humans tampering with things that give them power and can take it away, can only defile what they have written themselves.
Hence the only (only) logic thing I can say about the bible is: "What a load of crap."
Edit: And the ratio of probability of God's existence is 1:2, no more, no less, will never ever be either.
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It all sucked.
Why did God give man free will? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Look at it like this. There are 2 ways to do something. You can do it because you WANT to do it and you can do it because you are MADE to do it.
I do not know about you but if I do something that I WANT to do I tend to do well in it. I put everything I have into it.
If I do something I am made to do I do just what it takes to get the job done. Nothing fancy on the side.
I think that is why God gave us free will. God knows that 10 men that WANT to worship him are better than 100 men that are MADE to worship him. He gets a better deal this way.
God is not looking for QUANTITY. He is looking for QUALITY.
Thank you
PS: One note on the side, you can also look at it like this. If it turns out there is no God, well I lived a good life. Fought the good fight and when death comes that is it. It's a win - win situation for me, But if there IS a God, I go to heaven and you go to hell. Think about it.
Raven, there's so many flaws to that I can't believe it.
First. For argument's sake lets say God is real. We are all God's children. God loves us all EQUALLY. He does not love you more than he loves me. So, what sense does it make for him to give us free will knowing I will not choose him and I'll burn forever, but you will? In the end he still loses because he lost his child. Someone he loved immensely.
I don't know about you, but I don't want to see my child scream in eternal pain. No matter what. I won't MAKE him choose me, but I won't make him suffer either. Especially when I have the power end his suffering.
Quality is great, but watching my child suffer is far more painful than the joy I'll get from being loved by my other child. I still lose. Hate me if he must, but be happy doing it. I would rather my son be happy and hate me, than miserable and hate me.
10 loving men is not greater than 100 hateful men. In the end God still loses because he still lost 100 of his children. All of whom he loved equally to the 10 he did not lose.
The point isn't "do I have the choice?"
The point IS that God already knows what my choice. He knows all and sees all, remember. He knows every hope, dream, idea, thought, action ect ect that I have ever and will ever have. He already knows what my choice is.
So the point is, why create me?
this has already been covered in this thread. freewill requires a point of uncertainty which cannot exist since god is described as omniscient.
If you want to admit god is not omnsicient then you might have a point.
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and this contradicts yet another characteristic of god. god is said to be all-loving (or more accurate, just).
How is it justice to create someone when you know they won't accept you then punish them for eternity.
/someone fetch me a bucket...there's god-contradiction spilling out everywhere.
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Maybe God does not know. Maybe THAT is free will. We are the only things He as ever created with it. Think about that. J<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I have often wondered why did got make Satan, knowing what Satan would do to mankind.
See, God is all holy. He could not tempt mankind with sin, represented as an Apple in the Bible, but He knew that something like Satan would do it. Gods plan in making mankind included Satan. Satan did not and possible still does not realize he is nothing but an ingredient in Gods ultimate creation, a living being like no other.
God needed the ingredient Satan to make a being with free will.
So you ask why did God make you since you do not believe in him. That is not for me to answer. Maybe you are here to simply argue the other side, without both sides there is no choice. J
Maybe God is not finished with you. You may still have many years of life ahead of you and your day of grace is yet to come. J
I did not always believe either.
Raven, you're looking at it from a human perspective. You're saying "Maybe one day you will..."
God does know. Remember? God knows ALL. It says so in the very Bible that teach you about God. He knows eeeeeeeeeverything. Every.single.thing. Nothing is not known. And if there is something God doesn't know, maybe there's something else God doesn't know. Maybe there's a LOT God doesn't know. Then..is he a God? Or just simply a very powerful being.
And we are not the only thing created with free will. Lucifer, an angel, had free will. They all did. Some chose not to betray God, while others chose to. So, we are not the only things with free will. Also, we do not know what else exists in the universe. There could be other beings out there, also with free will. So, how you can say we're the only things with free will is beyond me.
Also, God created EVERYTHING. Remember? Every.single.thing. Love, hate, pain, joy, happiness, suffering. All of it. Hell too. God is THE creator. Not A creator. THE creator. The one and only.
Also, I think you forgot one point in my previous post. What good am I to argue the opposite side? God loves me as much as you, right? So, what good is it to condemn me and save you? He still loses someone he loves. It serves him NO good for me to argue the opposite side just to save someone else.
To reiterate. The point isn't "will I one day be a believer?" The point is "I will NEVER be a believer, so why make me?"
*sigh* this is a thread masquerading as a "Do you believe in God?" thread.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
um..so you are willing to admit that your god is not omniscient? interesting.
It seems you are wanting to admit that your god may not be all-powerful too (a.k.a omnipotent). Are you sure you want to do that?
I'll be honest with you, I find it very odd that you know enough to know:
* god isn't omniscient (even though something like 99.9999% of christians I've talked to disagree)
* may not be omnipotent (even though something like 99.9999% of christians I've talked to disagree)
* go into lengths about how and why satan was created and how he relates to freewill
yet your don't know enough to answer this question? Doesn't that seem a little suspecious? I'm sorry, I think your just making ad hoc replies here.
the point should not be focused on me...people, everyday, die who believe in the wrong god or no god at all.
==========================
You are right. It is pretty much ad-hoc. I have no idea WHAT God's plan is for some of you.
Are you something for me to practice my power of prayer on? Are you there for me to feel thankful to God that I am not like you?
I do not know. I often ask myself the same question you ask yourself. Why ARE you here?
I will just continue to have faith.
oops double post.
IF you had a free will, you would be able to do what you wanted.
However we only have one way we can act, through the needs of the being.
Outer sources (And inner such as endorfins and andrenaline, serotonine and so on) changes settings for the situation of which you have to choose. By that you always act after certain conditions..
Psychology wouldn't exist if this was true. Human behaviour wouldn't be a class either.
But let's skip that for a second as we're talking God here...
IF we had a free will, we would be able to choose freely what we did in life or not.
HOWEVER we have a minor problem called God in the equation..
If God is all and absolute supreme, I would expect him to know his children too, us.
A well known fact is that God knows everything.. We can safely assume that he is forever and not dependant on time, right? (Now why did it take 7 days to create the world then..) So he should know what You as a Christian will do in life. He does know everything if I'm not mistaken? (Kinda the point of being Supreme)
Now if GOD knows what YOU will do throughout your life ( God is supreme.. )
Then you have no options anymore, as he already knows it.. (God knows everything)
So tell me, where is your free will? You were judged by God before Adam even was created, as he knows your path, he knows your death and he knows what you will become. (God knows everything, God is supreme)
Edit - And it's Not a friggin apple that Adam ate, stop with that idiocy already!
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It all sucked.
I try to stay away from the "if god exists why would he _____" type of questions. Because frankly if their was a god I cant think for him or really understand his/her/its motives. Putting human terms on god and putting it in human perspective might have nothing to do with god.
It would be like using a ducks perspective to find out what human behavior does. Its probably inconcievable to us what his motives, if he has motives, or anything else about what his actions are. Many people use the bible as his word, but throughout the bible contradictions rule the day. ANYONE can read anything in the bible, the inquisition, witch burnings/hangings, crusades, etc etc were all from people who slept with the bible. So the bible proves nothing, except it was written by man.
Now granted if their is a god and their is real godly inspiration behind the bible, that hardly means its a perfect document. It was written by man, it could have lost alot in translation. Also the bible throughout its ages has changed, some of the writers/prophets were removed, some included, etc. Basically the bible is a heavily edited book by man and as such taking the literal interpretations on it are in my eyes not reasonable. The overall lessons of the bible are sound like the 10 commandments, thats far more of a guideline on how to live with your fellow man than a christian exclusive. Especially considering that those rules are taught in different forms in almost all the great religions.
[quote]Originally posted by The-Raven
you believe in a god who is (by very definition) a contradiction. yet you still use that to set yourself above others with the "I'll Pray For You" sentiment. Well, I'll see your god and raise you an invisible pink unicorn...i'll neigh for you brotha
anyway I can't believe how civil this thread has been...in my experience these types of topics usually are reduced to flames within the first few pages...
This thread has actually been very enjoyable.
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Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Originally posted by Sramota
By the biggest God worshipping continent in the world (Hence score highest on the biggest brownnosers of God) we have been given the knowledge of the law "Innocent until caught"And as we can basicly prove he doesn't excist, but we can't prove that he does. He is thereby nullified.
(Proof: - Is there a God? - Yes. - Prove it.- GOD IF YOU EXCST, GIVE US A SIGN!- [Blank..]
- Is there a God?- No.- Prove it.- GOD IF YOU EXCST, GIVE US A SIGN!- [Blank..]
Wow...Your wisdom of thorough knowledge, education, and research has surely opened our eyes to the truth.
Because you demand to be shown by God that he exists, and he doesn't listen to your arrogant demands, it must mean he doesn't exist.
I applaud your wisdom.
---Edit--- Also isn't it funny how people tend t othink that jesus was tall and white?
On top of that - Thing of this, all those who worship God whorship the same God..As there is only one God and all expect to get to heaven..(That and the fact that they all come from the same base..)
Seriously, before you comment, you should do your research instead of just driveling.
Here...Lets start with the basics.
god Pronunciation Key (god)n.
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
Ok, you got that mentally noted now?
Now lets continue. Before the Translation of the Bible over into English, the original texts(What they were written in depending on it being the Old or New Testament), when using the word God, the previously translation was in fact many different words with different meanings.
#1 Eloha. Meaning god, a god, or God.
#2. Elohim. Plural of Eloha, meaning literally, "gods".
And then finally, #3. YHVH, or YHWH, usually in english, "Yahweh". Meaning the most High and powerful God, the creator; the "Father God". The one in the Bible that is considered the father of Christ, the ultimate and omnipotent being.
So is there only one god? No...is there only one YHVH? Yes.
Originally posted by ZivaDomini
It's already been said that the burden of proof does not fall on those who do not believe, but on those who do.
A random guy on the messageboards says something...And that means it must be gospel! Aghast! You are surely right. Because well...It's already been said. And if you said I was a purple monkey with nerfballs for brains, an antenna for ears, and tin cups for feet, it must be so!
If you got anymore pretentious, I'd have to slap you for an overdose of arrogance.
Originally posted by Sramota
----The Bible was written by humans. Hence not valid evidence.
Not true. The Ten Commandments were in fact...Written by God!
The rest was inspired.
By legal standards, there is no proof whatsoever of his excistence.
Always had a distaste for the legal system myself; it seemed everytime you turned around, it was changing what it originally was.
And when looking at the current situation. Adam and Eve - as first generation children of God, could not have been created with anything BUT God's will (For the simple fact that there was nothing else) they couldn't have chosen to eat the fruit or not, due to God's will being the only will. (Yes yes you mention the snake, remember the snake is also first generation and has nothing but God's will.)Hence their will to eat the fruit can only be God's will.
Here, let me try to make this simple. Feh-ree-weeeeelll.
See...With God's will, as you so quaintly, and accurately put it. He not only created man, and everything else with his Will, but with his will...He well, willed them, to have a will of their own.
Hence free will; and your point being moot and invalid.
On top of that we can first of all not prove any part where the so-called 'evil' would be either.
Free will. It's the choice of two paths. With free will, there always has to be two antithesis choices. The fruit of good and evil being a perfect case and point, "to, or not to".
ON TOP of that, if we listen to God, we only here HIS side of the story, hence he could be something minor in comparsion to the true God. And in that case, you're the one not accepting the ONE God. Good job there.. Really.
And maybe...Maybe, the one above that one, really isn't the ONE God either, and then we'd not be accepting the ONE God, but then wait, the one above that one, that says that he is the ONE God, wouldn't be the one God either, so then STILL, you wouldn't be accepting the one God.
Oh my...
ON TOP OF THAT God gave the Earth to the human, however the prosecutor also walks the Earth, assuming he is satan, what would be his wisest move? To pretend he's God. As not even God can question the prosecutor the people would forget the true God and worship the one he or she thought was God. Hence you could just as well be worshipping satan as it is.
Of course Satan will make himself up as a god, or even pretend to be GOD. But Satan isn't a paradox. And will not tell you to, "Forgive thy enemy, and love your neighbor as thy self."
ON TOP OF THAT (Jeebus this is long) we can to 100% prove that no child knows the concept of God.This simply by going to any nature religion culture or whatever, God is not the same thing there.And are a newborn child not the essence of purity? Undefiled and pure? Sure we are born in sin but we need to sin in order to be sinful. And as we know a child is not aware of the concept of God, the whole part of being close to God by not committing sins is also a void argument as not even the purest of humans hear his voice.
All in all, summed up, Gods word is the biggest reason for death in this world (TRY to argue against that) also he created death and all that bad bit ( Newtons law - no action without reaction states this) as there is only ONE creator, right?
Errr, wrong. Man created death and entropy when he sinned. If he didn't sin(Newtons law, reaction to an action), there would be no death. Since he did, boom, Newtons law.
And since he is both the creator of life and death, joy and pain, he is also guilty for all murders done to date.
Again...You seem to just be INABLE, to comprehend free will.
With that said, the laws that are, according to the text in the book, stated by God as the judge is only a extended hand of God's will (Read the lawbook) he must also be seen under his own laws.Hence if he did exist he would be guilty of aaaaaloooot of crap by now. But we don't blame him for that, hence he is innocent as long as he is not proven to be guilty of it, and if he created it, he is guilty of it.
Read above...
*sigh*
So... God is innocent until caught. and in order for YOUR religion to work with the system you also abide under, God must NOT exist if he is to be all the Good in the world.
By your own pretentious and obviously arrogant view on how YOU think the universe works. But guess what champ, the universe doesn't work how you want it, or think it to works.
To put it bluntly...It works how it works.
Originally posted by ZivaDomini
Raven, there's so many flaws to that I can't believe it.
First. For argument's sake lets say God is real. We are all God's children. God loves us all EQUALLY. He does not love you more than he loves me. So, what sense does it make for him to give us free will knowing I will not choose him and I'll burn forever, but you will? In the end he still loses because he lost his child. Someone he loved immensely.
See, that's something that many people get tripped on.
For one reason...
NO ONE"S BURNING FOREVER! Yes, that's true. Even Satan in the end will be reconciled.
It's a concept called "Ultimate Reconciliation", and though is not widely accepted, is Biblically accurate.
I don't know about you, but I don't want to see my child scream in eternal pain. No matter what. I won't MAKE him choose me, but I won't make him suffer either. Especially when I have the power end his suffering.
Quality is great, but watching my child suffer is far more painful than the joy I'll get from being loved by my other child. I still lose. Hate me if he must, but be happy doing it. I would rather my son be happy and hate me, than miserable and hate me.
10 loving men is not greater than 100 hateful men. In the end God still loses because he still lost 100 of his children. All of whom he loved equally to the 10 he did not lose.
*Points what I wrote above*
Originally posted by ZivaDomini
Raven, you're looking at it from a human perspective. You're saying "Maybe one day you will..."
God does know. Remember? God knows ALL. It says so in the very Bible that teach you about God. He knows eeeeeeeeeverything. Every.single.thing. Nothing is not known. And if there is something God doesn't know, maybe there's something else God doesn't know. Maybe there's a LOT God doesn't know. Then..is he a God? Or just simply a very powerful being.
And we are not the only thing created with free will. Lucifer, an angel, had free will. They all did. Some chose not to betray God, while others chose to. So, we are not the only things with free will. Also, we do not know what else exists in the universe. There could be other beings out there, also with free will. So, how you can say we're the only things with free will is beyond me.
Also, God created EVERYTHING. Remember? Every.single.thing. Love, hate, pain, joy, happiness, suffering. All of it. Hell too. God is THE creator. Not A creator. THE creator. The one and only.
"For the wages of Sin is Death".
I'll go over this again to make sure that it is emphasized. God is not sin, God is perfect. So you would say, "Well then...How is there sin then?"
God is also not pain, he is joy.
But...FREE will. Free will is the choice of two paths, and always will be. Because of free will, there are antithesis' to almost all things in life. Love/hate, sorrow/joy, life/sin.
Also, I think you forgot one point in my previous post. What good am I to argue the opposite side? God loves me as much as you, right? So, what good is it to condemn me and save you? He still loses someone he loves. It serves him NO good for me to argue the opposite side just to save someone else.
To reiterate. The point isn't "will I one day be a believer?" The point is "I will NEVER be a believer, so why make me?"
Everyone serves a purpose in life.
Originally posted by Sramota
IF you had a free will, you would be able to do what you wanted.However we only have one way we can act, through the needs of the being.Outer sources (And inner such as endorfins and andrenaline, serotonine and so on) changes settings for the situation of which you have to choose. By that you always act after certain conditions..
Your in open admittance to your outside surroundings completely controlling how you act and behave, thus removing your belief in free will?
Psychology wouldn't exist if this was true. Human behaviour wouldn't be a class either.
But let's skip that for a second as we're talking God here... IF we had a free will, we would be able to choose freely what we did in life or not.HOWEVER we have a minor problem called God in the equation..If God is all and absolute supreme, I would expect him to know his children too, us.
Minor problem...Hrmm...uhh. Sorry, you seemed to have skipped explaining that minor problem...
A well known fact is that God knows everything.. We can safely assume that he is forever and not dependant on time, right? (Now why did it take 7 days to create the world then..)
He wanted to...
So he should know what You as a Christian will do in life. He does know everything if I'm not mistaken? (Kinda the point of being Supreme)Now if GOD knows what YOU will do throughout your life ( God is supreme.. )Then you have no options anymore, as he already knows it.. (God knows everything)
He knows everything, so you have no free will...That's such an illogical leap of "logic", that it's a completely invalid point.
For that matter, we could say because we in the future(at least in perspective of those to the past), know what those in the past(to our perspective), end up doing. They have no free will.
So tell me, where is your free will? You were judged by God before Adam even was created, as he knows your path, he knows your death and he knows what you will become. (God knows everything, God is supreme)
Edit - And it's Not a friggin apple that Adam ate, stop with that idiocy already!
Actually, no one really knows.
Originally posted by Scorpes
I try to stay away from the "if god exists why would he _____" type of questions. Because frankly if their was a god I cant think for him or really understand his/her/its motives. Putting human terms on god and putting it in human perspective might have nothing to do with god.
It would be like using a ducks perspective to find out what human behavior does. Its probably inconcievable to us what his motives, if he has motives, or anything else about what his actions are. Many people use the bible as his word, but throughout the bible contradictions rule the day.
Scriptures?
ANYONE can read anything in the bible, the inquisition, witch burnings/hangings, crusades, etc etc were all from people who slept with the bible. So the bible proves nothing, except it was written by man.
"Anyone can read anything in the bible...*rant*, So the bible proves nothing except it was written by man."
That is one of the most incoherent and nonsensical statements I've seen. And I'm not sure what EXACTLY you were trying to prove.
Now granted if their is a god and their is real godly inspiration behind the bible, that hardly means its a perfect document. It was written by man, it could have lost alot in translation.
Of course it lost alot in translation. I've read an unabridged version of Genesis. Direct translation.
Talk about a headache. Of course for research purposes it was great.
King James is a good, not the best, but good translation, and very convenient.
Also the bible throughout its ages has changed, some of the writers/prophets were removed, some included, etc. Basically the bible is a heavily edited book by man and as such taking the literal interpretations on it are in my eyes not reasonable.
Haha...Well. Thing is, it's because the Bible isn't a book! It's a collection of books. And for example, there are differences between your everday King James bible, and the Catholic Cannon. And then there are books that have been left out for one reason or another, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Book of Enoch, or the Book of Jasher.
The overall lessons of the bible are sound like the 10 commandments, thats far more of a guideline on how to live with your fellow man than a christian exclusive. Especially considering that those rules are taught in different forms in almost all the great religions.
Christian exclusives are in fact, how you are suppose to live with your fellow man.
P.S. This post may look a little weird, or have a few flaws in it. Transferring it between two browsers, and a note pad, have caused it to look a bit...off.
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Originally posted by Aldaron
"Anyone can read anything in the bible...*rant*, So the bible proves nothing except it was written by man."That is one of the most incoherent and nonsensical statements I've seen. And I'm not sure what EXACTLY you were trying to prove.
Before you start calling things nonsensical and incoherent, perhaps the actual fault lies in you not being able to understand or comprehend what is being said. Its a simple concept really, but if you need a long drawn out explanation so you can understand it, here you go.
My point is alot of people would use the bible to further their own beliefs, motives, aspirations, dogma's, etc etc, no matter how extreme the spectrum is. The KKK, and other hate groups cite passages in the bible supporting their agenda while pacifists use it to support their agenda.
Almost everyone that believes in the bible know that their interpretation of the bible is the correct one. Even between 2 people of the same faith and denomination, each will probably take away a different perspective than the another. So using the bible literally to prove or disprove anything is untenable, because at that point its mostly just opinions. As if thats not enough to dispell its literal interpretation, its also been rewritten millions of times since the dawn of history by man and man almost by definition if flawed. You cant believe everything written 1 second ago, nevermind something written 2000 years ago.
It very well could, our understanding of quantum mechanics might be that of a flea doing college level algebra. We might never even fully understand our own galaxy, nevermind alternate dimensions.
Scorpes whats with the yellow text?
the words are so bright its eye nerving!!
agh!
It's already been said that the burden of proof does not fall on those who do not believe, but on those who do.
"A random guy on the messageboards says something...And that means it must be gospel! Aghast! You are surely right. Because well...It's already been said. And if you said I was a purple monkey with nerfballs for brains, an antenna for ears, and tin cups for feet, it must be so!
If you got anymore pretentious, I'd have to slap you for an overdose of arrogance."
If I said you were a purple monkey with nerballs for brains, an antenna for ears, and a tin cups for feet, would not make it so. However, what would you ask? You would ask for me to....prove it. Meaning, the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim. Now sure, you could post a picture of yourself disproving me from the get go, however that's because it's simple to disprove what is obviously not true.
However, if I were to say "There's a chemical in space that could easily melt any metal in the universe." You would ask me to prove it. You, however, could not simply disprove it. Why? Because then you would have to spend the rest of eternity dedicating your life to finding this thing. Which would make almost no sense at all. It's not your job to disprove my claim until I have tested it. The burden of proof is mine. Not yours.
Originally posted by ZivaDominiRaven, there's so many flaws to that I can't believe it.
First. For argument's sake lets say God is real. We are all God's children. God loves us all EQUALLY. He does not love you more than he loves me. So, what sense does it make for him to give us free will knowing I will not choose him and I'll burn forever, but you will? In the end he still loses because he lost his child. Someone he loved immensely.
"See, that's something that many people get tripped on.
For one reason...
NO ONE"S BURNING FOREVER! Yes, that's true. Even Satan in the end will be reconciled.
It's a concept called "Ultimate Reconciliation", and though is not widely accepted, is Biblically accurate."
That's true. I've heard of this. I even googled it to ensure we were on the same page. I've also read a few pages from random preachers. Many of which who agree that this is simply nit-picking. People trying to manipulate the Bible to mean what they want it to mean. Here's one link in particular. http://www.americaslastdays.com/ultimaterec.htm There's plenty more, just hit up Google. Yahoo.com also has Christian chatrooms if you want to visit those and see what they have to say on it. A lot of them are well versed. I used to frequent those rooms.
Edit: I remember reading somewhere in your post, couldn't find it. You said something along the lines of the Devil would pretend to be God, but would not say "love thy neighbor ect ect." To me, Ultimate Reconciliation sounds like something the Devil would preach. Why worship God? You'll be redeemed some day anyway. Why read the Bible? God will forgive you someday anyway. Why do ANYTHING for God? Eventually, you are redeemed. It sounds a lot like something the Devil would want you to think. So maybe you're right, maybe the Devil would pretend to be God...but would just change it around a little bit.
Now, why do I say everyone will burn forever? Because it's the most widely accepted belief as far as I can tell. You're Ultimate Reconciliation is what a lot of people have on the Bible, an opinion. It's not fact. So please don't pass it on as fact. I brought up the most widely accepted belief of the Bible because it's what the majority agree on. We could argue about Ultimate Reconciliation to no end just like every other religion debate.
To put it simply. I don't believe in God. However, if I did, I do not feel as if I would believe in Ultimate Reconciliation. So no, it's not "True" as you have put it. It's an idea. An opinion. That is not accepted in many groups.
Originally posted by ZivaDominiRaven, you're looking at it from a human perspective. You're saying "Maybe one day you will..."
God does know. Remember? God knows ALL. It says so in the very Bible that teach you about God. He knows eeeeeeeeeverything. Every.single.thing. Nothing is not known. And if there is something God doesn't know, maybe there's something else God doesn't know. Maybe there's a LOT God doesn't know. Then..is he a God? Or just simply a very powerful being.
And we are not the only thing created with free will. Lucifer, an angel, had free will. They all did. Some chose not to betray God, while others chose to. So, we are not the only things with free will. Also, we do not know what else exists in the universe. There could be other beings out there, also with free will. So, how you can say we're the only things with free will is beyond me.
Also, God created EVERYTHING. Remember? Every.single.thing. Love, hate, pain, joy, happiness, suffering. All of it. Hell too. God is THE creator. Not A creator. THE creator. The one and only.
"For the wages of Sin is Death".
I'll go over this again to make sure that it is emphasized. God is not sin, God is perfect. So you would say, "Well then...How is there sin then?"
God is also not pain, he is joy.
But...FREE will. Free will is the choice of two paths, and always will be. Because of free will, there are antithesis' to almost all things in life. Love/hate, sorrow/joy, life/sin.
Funny you should say that (For the wages of sin is death.) Because I've met a few that believe that Hell IS death. Not physically killing over, heart stopping ect ect. But that Hell is the ultimate death. You are away from the light of God in eternal torment. You are dead. However, if you are ultimately redeemed, you aren't dead then. You're just, in trouble. So how can you be dead if Hell is not the ultimate death?
My point wasn't does God express these. It was that God created everything, therefore he must have been the ultimate creator of the things that bring us pain. I am not saying he IS sin. However, did he create sin? I do believe he did. I don't consider it sinful to create sin because we do have that free will of choosing to sin or not to sin. You could simply chalk it up to one of God's "tests."
Also, I think you forgot one point in my previous post. What good am I to argue the opposite side? God loves me as much as you, right? So, what good is it to condemn me and save you? He still loses someone he loves. It serves him NO good for me to argue the opposite side just to save someone else.
To reiterate. The point isn't "will I one day be a believer?" The point is "I will NEVER be a believer, so why make me?"
"Everyone serves a purpose in life."
That's right, we do. However, is your purpose more important than my purpose? No. If your life more important than my life? No. So, why create me if I am destined for Hell?