Please tell me what games are FFA PvP that you guys think are keeping this genre alive? The 400 people on Darktide? The 1000, or less, on EQ's FFA server? The 300 on DAoC's FFA server? The barely running SB? Not even sure if thats FFA, tbh. The joke of a game L2, that scores lower than Rubies of Eventide?
There is one game I know about that comes close to being popular that could be considered FFA, and that is EVE. And that still is not truely FFA.
Very few people want FFA. That is why you have hybrids like DAoC, WoW, GW and other games that protect from griefing. There is no reason to take offense. Facts are just facts.
More and more people are liking PvP, Shadowbane is ffa, Lineage 2 has a decent sized following and eve has a higher satisfaction rate than WoW.
ffa-pvp will almost certainly get a niche back.
Don't mistake the people that are talking trash for the typical ffa-pvp player. Most are respectful and don't insult new players. If we get a solid, non-bugged or crashing ffa like UO was you'll see some numbers going up on the servers. It won't be WoW numbers but I think it'll surprise some people.
Originally posted by asdar No need to be nasty brostyn. More and more people are liking PvP, Shadowbane is ffa, Lineage 2 has a decent sized following and eve has a higher satisfaction rate than WoW. ffa-pvp will almost certainly get a niche back. Don't mistake the people that are talking trash for the typical ffa-pvp player. Most are respectful and don't insult new players. If we get a solid, non-bugged or crashing ffa like UO was you'll see some numbers going up on the servers. It won't be WoW numbers but I think it'll surprise some people.
Don't be nasty? Please quote me on what I said that was "nasty" or rude. I like PvP. Never said I didn't. What I don't like is lvl 60s going around owning lvl 20s. That's no challenge, and is poor design, imo.
WoW isn't FFA. Not sure if you were saying it is, or you're just saying its a popular game. The fact is, again, FFA PvP is dead, and what is growing is Realm/alliance/race/ pvp. I'm not disputing the fact PvP is a great way to game.
Originally posted by Kormac I think I generally agree with a few people here. Among them: Both Fulltimekilr and Jimmy_Schythe. At times I read it as though we are saying the same things, but at the same time it seems we stand on different sides of a fence, trying to convince eachother of it... I don't think there are many (if any) anti FFA PvP'ers who have stuck with this discussion, posts don't indicate that. The anti's drop by, make a post about hoping this thing is really dead and move on. What separates people still is what kind of FFA PvP we want. How it should be implemented. And I don't know of a single workable solution that has come out as a game. Mildly enjoyable, temporarily, yes. Truly workable, no. But really: I know I could enjoy a good game of FFA PvP. I have my own views on what is good, but don't we all?
I have to agree with you totally on that one Kormac, so instead of us flaming each other on what we would/wouldn't like to see in a FFA PvP game, let us post on what we would like to see in a FFA PvP game.
I for one would like to see : 1)Skill based, not level based system. (like Darfall)
2) Moderate to low attention on items (meaning no +20 sword of uber lewtnes that takes months to aquire)
3) City/conquest with resources and TRADE ROUTES. IE you have a woodshop but their are no choppable forests around so you have to import trade from other player run cities. A good way for enemies to help disrupt your city without actually burning it to the ground would be to disrupt your trade routes. I am thinking it could be done with both NPC and PC traders. Same with the actual gathering of recources. PC's will do it faster but NPC's will do it more consistent (as long as they do not get wiped out by enemy cities.) Throw in some upgradable transport between allied cities (IE build a griffon rider stable in city A,B and C and charge a premium for people to ride it for fast travel.) Also do not make cities take months to build and get a decent level. Also, for god's sake, make NPC guards worthwhile to have! In shadowbane with my R6 channeler I could camp a tree of life by myself with a full stock of R4 guards gunning for me no problem.
Basically, I am looking for game a lot like Savage with more character/guild/community growth and *gasp* roleplaying.
4) Oh and last but certainly not least, make the game complete upon release with no serious bugs/issues/crashes/will implement at a future time (3 years from now) People pay to play a game, not to beta test it.
If at first you don't succeed, try try again. If you try and try again and still don't succeed? Try something different.
Originally posted by brostyn Please tell me what games are FFA PvP that you guys think are keeping this genre alive? The 400 people on Darktide? The 1000, or less, on EQ's FFA server? The 300 on DAoC's FFA server? The barely running SB? Not even sure if thats FFA, tbh. The joke of a game L2, that scores lower than Rubies of Eventide? There is one game I know about that comes close to being popular that could be considered FFA, and that is EVE. And that still is not truely FFA. Very few people want FFA. That is why you have hybrids like DAoC, WoW, GW and other games that protect from griefing. There is no reason to take offense. Facts are just facts.
as stated countless times in this very thread, the reason SB is barely there anymore is because of all the bugs it had for so long, the development team always too slow to act on what the players want, CCR's that ban people left and right....most who played the game would still be playing it had those 3 things not been so horrible.
Don't be nasty? Please quote me on what I said that was "nasty" or rude. I like PvP. Never said I didn't. What I don't like is lvl 60s going around owning lvl 20s. That's no challenge, and is poor design, imo.
WoW isn't FFA. Not sure if you were saying it is, or you're just saying its a popular game. The fact is, again, FFA PvP is dead, and what is growing is Realm/alliance/race/ pvp. I'm not disputing the fact PvP is a great way to game.
ganking a lvl 20 isn't poor design, it is a fact of FFA PvP. You like PvP, a lot of people do, but apparently you are one of the people who like some sort of restrictions on your game. That's fine, to each his own, but FFA PvP has worked. EVE online has the highest satisfactoin rating of any game on the market (according to this site), Shadowbane would still be going strong were it not for all the bugs and other things of that nature.
Originally posted by Entreri28 Oh good, someone that doesn't enjoy challenge. Why do you even care about posting in a pvp thread if you don't like it?
FFA PvP in a MMORPG is NOT a challenge. It's generally an uneven contest one way or another, and it has the added drawback of encouraging griefing. It has NO redeeming features...FULL STOP.
PS. I thought the thread was about the DEATH of FFA PvP...that's why I'm here...to see, and revel in it!
You have zero clue. Did you ever even play Ultima Online back in 1997 or 1998? If you havent, then i suggest you shut your mouth.
Here are my points.
Looting who you kill: This promotes and ingame economy. People will lose items and need them replaced by crafters. Keeps prices down, no one will pay alot for items if they are lost. The game mechanics can make it so you dont have to spend months to get an uber loot, maybe they can be obtained easier so you can try it out and if you lose it, so what, find another. Thats the challenge and the risk you take.
Ganking, Griefing: Learn how to avoid these things first off. Avoid PVP hot spots, be smart. Pick your battles. If you get ganked, well, next time maybe you can gank back. Sometimes you find 1 on 1 and sometimes you wont. The challenge is to limit how much your ganked and griefed upon. Don't cry about it, do something about it. Find a guild or group so you can protect yourself. Build ingame friends and alliances.
FFA PVP: In UO in 1997, towns were safe, outside of that you were free game, even in dungeons. But there where ways to avoid being killed and safe spots to hunts. Ways to escape. All i know is I never got a rush from a game like UO when someone approached. Friend or Foe? Made it exciting. When you saw a Murderer approach (RED Name), your heart rate would go up, is he gonna attack me? or just talk to me? None of the games now have that element. There is almost no point to playing them.
I've played WOW and SWG. They are horrible in comparison to Ultima Online circa 1998. In fact i play a player run server now for UO (1998 Version). Yes, i've given up all teh fancy graphics for the classic of all MMORPGS. And you know what? I'm hooked again. See all those games to the left. Most of them are junk, none have FFA PVP. I bet no one ever makes another game like that. Its a shame, all of you are paying monthly fees for games with no major innovations. They are all the same, clones of each other.
I've played other MMORPGS too and my final conclusion is that UO was the best. I don't care about the graphics anymore. I just want well rounded game mechanics. Some of you may just want PVE or no PVP. Thats fine.
The main reason to play online games with people. (1) To compete against an opponents that thinks with a brain and not AI. Why the hell would anyone buy Dungeons and Dragons Online, its not even a MMORPG. Neverwinter Nights is the same thing, and you dont have to pay monthly fees. I can't understand this.
And i agree with the original poster. Having uber loot that can't be lost or looted just makes those great for Online Farmers to sell on EBAY. A FFA PVP game would elimnate all of that, and the only thing they could do is sell gold or credits. That being said. If you have looting and FFA PVP, the prices on everything will be so low you wont need to buy any currency off EBAY. You can put all those Online Farming setups out of business so we can enjoy this game.
So for now, i'm gonna play old school Ultima Online. I'm happy again. I'll wait till some other developer has the balls to make another FFA PVP game.
If you dont want anything to do with FFA PVP, then thats your perogative. I have nothing against you, just dont bash those that want a greifing, scamming, player killing game. Sure there are evil people that play these but there are also good people too. And this is where a great online community is born. This is what makes the game worth playing, this is the real challenge.
Originally posted by GungaDin You have zero clue. Did you ever even play Ultima Online back in 1997 or 1998? If you havent, then i suggest you shut your mouth.
You can say I have zero clue and tell me to shut my mouth (which makes you look like the typical PvPing dick), but all you're doing is stating your OPINION and PREFERENCE, just like every other damned person in this (almost pointless) thread.
So you like Ultima Online, who gives a rats...just like nobody cares about whether I like FFA PvP or not. That's my opinion too, and I don't care much whether people agree with me. The FACT FACT FACT is that despite the points you made in your post, there are still WAY too many bad features in FFA PvP for them to become a mainstream thing.
(BTW, Your points can easily be slapped aside anyway: (1) plenty of other ways to moneysink and destroy items in MMOs that don't lead to the cesspit that is FFA PvP (2) Being killed by people levels and levels above you, and being jumped on when you're doing something else, particularly if you've reached low health is just day-spoiling, insecure, anti-social, weak-minded, insipid behaviour, I'm not accepting THAT in any game I play, it's called bad-sportsmanship!! No adrenaline rush for me on EITHER side of THAT particular equation! (3) If towns were SAFE in UO back in "the day", then it WASN'T! true FFA PvP, now, was it!? The rest of your post is JUST your opinion...and can be taken with a grain of salt, just as mine can)
I'm glad you found your niche, just be prepared to play with VERY VERY FEW people...for the rest of your life.
Have a nice day! And watch your back...I'm sure there's a whole 2 or 3 other players on that UO server too, they might sneak up on you in the utter ghostland. j/k (Nah, really I've heard a lot of good things about UO, from real-life friends, each to their own. I just think it's a factor of which MMO was your "first" as to the one you feel fondest about.)
Have you played it? Did you ever play Ultima Online from 1997-1998? Your right, I shouldnt have told ya to shut your mouth lol, had a few drinks in me and got upset, i'm not here to make enemies. Except my apology. But if you havent played UO from that time period, then I'm not sure you have a clear idea of what it was like or what my points mean. Thats all i'm saying. If your interested in getting a taste of it let it know. By the way, I dont PVP that much. It was just the thought that you had to always keep on your toes and watch your back. Avoiding thieves and what not.
Originally posted by GungaDin Have you played it? Did you ever play Ultima Online from 1997-1998? Your right, I shouldnt have told ya to shut your mouth lol, had a few drinks in me and got upset, i'm not here to make enemies. Except my apology. But if you havent played UO from that time period, then I'm not sure you have a clear idea of what it was like or what my points mean. Thats all i'm saying. If your interested in getting a taste of it let it know. By the way, I dont PVP that much. It was just the thought that you had to always keep on your toes and watch your back. Avoiding thieves and what not.
No probs mate, I'm not looking to make enemies either. And no, I didn't play it back in 97, 98 so I don't know exactly how it was. I'd have tried the current version (always into trying new MMOs) but my friend (who loved the original) says it's not nearly as good now, so I never bothered. (He does still jump back into the current one every now and then though...I think for old time's sake)
I do understand what you're saying though, it would provide a certain atmosphere, and a bit more "reality" than just knowing where your mob of choice would always be roaming.
Even though UO was safe in all but one town, it was very very very much FFA PVP. You were safe in town because the guards would kill you if you made an aggressive act on another player or npc. In all towns except Bucs Den the guards would kill those who transgresed upon another. However, you were still able to steal/attack someone. Stealing was possible but if you were caught, if your stealing was low or you failed etc, then the guards could be called and you would be killed instantly. It was still possible to get killed in town by another player, but that means that it would take a group or more people to openly attack you in town each dieing instantly after getting one hit or spell off, as well as all of them receiving murder counts. Even in this scenario you are not guaranteed to die, but if you did you have the satisfaction of giving all the players who did any damage to you a murder count. 5 counts and you go red..... So yes while it was very safe in town, it was not 100%, the towns just provided a realistic level of protection as any good king/lord would do for his subject while in the safety of his/her town.
Yeah exactly. It was the atmosphere that it provided. Thats what i'm missing in playing some of these newer MMOPRGS. I stopped playing UO for 3 yrs. Its only now after playing WOW, SWG, City of Villians , etc that i've decided that its that FFA atomosphere I desire. Thankfully I found a player run server that gives me that fix again.
Your other point about just going from one MOB to the next is spot on too. After I completed every quest , had wealth beyond my dreams and killed everything, the only thing left to challenge me was that PVP aspect. Playing against real people, not AI. However, the PVP on most of these new games is so protected and it wasnt much fun.
I actually missed being griefed, scammed and looted. It was more to reality than whats being produced now. The friends and alliances you made during these tough encounters really lasted the longest and meant the most.
After playing UO for so long and realizing that I was in love with the old school PVP "griefing (which is a pussy word for I cant handle being PK'd)". It made the game fun, the thrill of the chase or being chased. In UO you could have a character on a shard for PK PVP or a nobleman who tries to hunt PKers. Ultima Online lost its touch with this but I believe other games in the future will pick it up.
Nowadays I just see games that are truly focused on role-play. If I wanted to fight monsters all day that were all AI I would play games that I wouldnt have to subscribe to monthly and just pay the one time fee of owning the damn game. If its companionship your looking for play team starcraft.
Another thing, why has consentual PvP gotten so popular? I mean player versus player should be what it is, a person who wants to combat another person. Why does it have to be consentual...its not sex or rape...its war. (please no cheesy comments on love and war...)... I guess I am more of a real life role player, I like games to be realistic (besides the fantasy/scifi aspect), life in games should be harsh, not easy flowing..its early if this post doesnt entirely make sense, im sorry
Ive got two choices, run, or stay and fight...And I dont see no doors...
Wow, i must say Kade pretty much laid it all out. Very nice post. Asdar and Gunga, and others who im forgetting, also have some very admirable posts in this thread on behalf of FFA full-loot pvp.
All the idiots who posted 10 word flames supporting FFA full loot pvp... seriously, stop using forums. i know your probably pretty cool ingame and whatnot but just dont use forums, and if you come to darkfall, and i see you, lol "let there be war". good ol' fashioned 1 on 1 heh
_______________________________________________ Games looking forward to: Fallen Earth, Mortal Online
The noob formally not known as not being the formally not unkown known APEist; The Stone Cold Killer of Tarq.
I think FFA PVP with FFA looting is sorta ridiculous, because say you get all the massive gear. get gfanked and now have nothign so you can't kill anyone after that and then you get mad and upset and never play the game again. What the point of it?
I love pvp and FFA pvp jsut nto FFA looting of corpse. Maybe if you could like take items out of the backpack but not equip.
--------------------------------------------- WoW -Rhalon 85 B.E. rogue -Rhalon 81 UD Mage -Doneski 85 Orc death knight
"Everyones life has a beginning and an end, No one can change that."-Hiko "If you wish to taste the ground, then feel free to attack."-Kenshin Himura ---------------------------------------------
I think FFA PvP with massive gear is sorta ridiculous because that kind of gear only exists to buff the buffed and increase the gap. Oh, the satisfaction of wielding a fiery +21 sword of newbmaimship or launching lightning bolts from the +23 composite longbow of thunder, but really... No.
Your character should be of far greater importance than your gear.
When it comes to griefing: There may be things that are good and right which is called griefing, but to simply dismiss it as a "pussy word" from the "other side" is not going to help anybody.
Of course, if the game says it is ok, then it is, and the game just isn't for those who don't want it. But that doesn't mean those who complain of griefing aren't capable of handling PK. It means something about that particular game (and every single clone of it) is wrong, at least for them. They need a better, or at least different, game.
And I think of griefing as the purposeful act of making somebody else's game miserable. Making it impossible to play because they can hardly get started before they're knocked out - again and again. And here I'm talking of a targeted newcomer, not just random encounters with other players.
IMHO
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I think I'll review my opinion on what killed ffa pvp to griefing and bad game design.
To the guy who said griefing is just another pussy word for I don't like being pk'ed think of the bad game design in current games and try to understand that if you don't have a chance at all at either running away from danger or using that adrenaline rush to kill your oponent it's not a challenge. Most people are not comming from UO in '97 or '98, they're comming from EQ or WoW points of view.
I truly understand your wish for a good ffa pvp game but I don't see any mmorpg implementing it in a way that could allow for a reasonable fanbase to sustain it (at least 5k people for very low dev-cost). Reason being is that you underestimate the size of the group mostly looking to kill people that don't have a chance against them in these type of games. They prefer it to be real people rather then AI just because they know they caused someone to get upset irl (even pvp'ers don't like to get killed, they want to win). It's not only about the challenge, I've seen AI done in a way that a single player can never defeat a monster and that it takes a group hours to kill it. That AI had random moves, attack resistances, spellcasting (full PvP spell acces for the monster) etc. You can make AI far more challenging then PvP can ever be.
To me mmorpg's are for playing together in a roleplaying environment with graphics and not just against eachother. To each their own type of fun. If you can't accept that I pay a monthly fee for that why don't you just go play counterstrike.
Design notes if ffa pvp with looting is to be implemented in any game
The most important part is being able to regain what you lost in PvP almost instantly in PvE/crafting content along with an easy levelling curve (rpg logic, not fps). It'll create incentive and fun. Most people think of their hours of grinding and are indeed more attached to their items/lvls then to their characters hence they become the enemies of looting/permadeath in PvP. "I worked hard for my pixels I want to keep them."
Law system is the next important thing. If you want to play a villain, fine, but there are risks to that too, if it's about realism, that's easily compared to real life (don't say me to not compare because an rpg IS a simulation of an alternate life). Society provides protection for the weaker people. Parents protect their children, guilds protect their members etc. If someone disappears from the face of the earth someone else will get curious as to why. And yes that can be NPC guards.
Lastly I agree on the permadeath option. You want FFA PvP with looting, alright that's maximum reward accept to take maximum risk with it. If you're not willing to take that risk in a game even in a guild vs guild war you shouldn't get maximum reward.
Comments
I don't suppose you've ever played Lineage 2?
---------------------------------------
No Userbar here, sorry to disappoint.
Please tell me what games are FFA PvP that you guys think are keeping this genre alive? The 400 people on Darktide? The 1000, or less, on EQ's FFA server? The 300 on DAoC's FFA server? The barely running SB? Not even sure if thats FFA, tbh. The joke of a game L2, that scores lower than Rubies of Eventide?
There is one game I know about that comes close to being popular that could be considered FFA, and that is EVE. And that still is not truely FFA.
Very few people want FFA. That is why you have hybrids like DAoC, WoW, GW and other games that protect from griefing. There is no reason to take offense. Facts are just facts.
No need to be nasty brostyn.
More and more people are liking PvP, Shadowbane is ffa, Lineage 2 has a decent sized following and eve has a higher satisfaction rate than WoW.
ffa-pvp will almost certainly get a niche back.
Don't mistake the people that are talking trash for the typical ffa-pvp player. Most are respectful and don't insult new players. If we get a solid, non-bugged or crashing ffa like UO was you'll see some numbers going up on the servers. It won't be WoW numbers but I think it'll surprise some people.
Asdar
Don't be nasty? Please quote me on what I said that was "nasty" or rude. I like PvP. Never said I didn't. What I don't like is lvl 60s going around owning lvl 20s. That's no challenge, and is poor design, imo.
WoW isn't FFA. Not sure if you were saying it is, or you're just saying its a popular game. The fact is, again, FFA PvP is dead, and what is growing is Realm/alliance/race/ pvp. I'm not disputing the fact PvP is a great way to game.
I have to agree with you totally on that one Kormac, so instead of us flaming each other on what we would/wouldn't like to see in a FFA PvP game, let us post on what we would like to see in a FFA PvP game.
I for one would like to see :
1)Skill based, not level based system. (like Darfall)
2) Moderate to low attention on items (meaning no +20 sword of uber lewtnes that takes months to aquire)
3) City/conquest with resources and TRADE ROUTES. IE you have a woodshop but their are no choppable forests around so you have to import trade from other player run cities. A good way for enemies to help disrupt your city without actually burning it to the ground would be to disrupt your trade routes. I am thinking it could be done with both NPC and PC traders. Same with the actual gathering of recources. PC's will do it faster but NPC's will do it more consistent (as long as they do not get wiped out by enemy cities.) Throw in some upgradable transport between allied cities (IE build a griffon rider stable in city A,B and C and charge a premium for people to ride it for fast travel.) Also do not make cities take months to build and get a decent level. Also, for god's sake, make NPC guards worthwhile to have! In shadowbane with my R6 channeler I could camp a tree of life by myself with a full stock of R4 guards gunning for me no problem.
Basically, I am looking for game a lot like Savage with more character/guild/community growth and *gasp* roleplaying.
4) Oh and last but certainly not least, make the game complete upon release with no serious bugs/issues/crashes/will implement at a future time (3 years from now) People pay to play a game, not to beta test it.
If at first you don't succeed, try try again. If you try and try again and still don't succeed? Try something different.
Don't be nasty? Please quote me on what I said that was "nasty" or rude. I like PvP. Never said I didn't. What I don't like is lvl 60s going around owning lvl 20s. That's no challenge, and is poor design, imo.
WoW isn't FFA. Not sure if you were saying it is, or you're just saying its a popular game. The fact is, again, FFA PvP is dead, and what is growing is Realm/alliance/race/ pvp. I'm not disputing the fact PvP is a great way to game.
ganking a lvl 20 isn't poor design, it is a fact of FFA PvP. You like PvP, a lot of people do, but apparently you are one of the people who like some sort of restrictions on your game. That's fine, to each his own, but FFA PvP has worked. EVE online has the highest satisfactoin rating of any game on the market (according to this site), Shadowbane would still be going strong were it not for all the bugs and other things of that nature.
FFA PvP in a MMORPG is NOT a challenge. It's generally an uneven contest one way or another, and it has the added drawback of encouraging griefing. It has NO redeeming features...FULL STOP.
PS. I thought the thread was about the DEATH of FFA PvP...that's why I'm here...to see, and revel in it!
You have zero clue. Did you ever even play Ultima Online back in 1997 or 1998? If you havent, then i suggest you shut your mouth.
Here are my points.
Looting who you kill: This promotes and ingame economy. People will lose items and need them replaced by crafters. Keeps prices down, no one will pay alot for items if they are lost. The game mechanics can make it so you dont have to spend months to get an uber loot, maybe they can be obtained easier so you can try it out and if you lose it, so what, find another. Thats the challenge and the risk you take.
Ganking, Griefing: Learn how to avoid these things first off. Avoid PVP hot spots, be smart. Pick your battles. If you get ganked, well, next time maybe you can gank back. Sometimes you find 1 on 1 and sometimes you wont. The challenge is to limit how much your ganked and griefed upon. Don't cry about it, do something about it. Find a guild or group so you can protect yourself. Build ingame friends and alliances.
FFA PVP: In UO in 1997, towns were safe, outside of that you were free game, even in dungeons. But there where ways to avoid being killed and safe spots to hunts. Ways to escape. All i know is I never got a rush from a game like UO when someone approached. Friend or Foe? Made it exciting. When you saw a Murderer approach (RED Name), your heart rate would go up, is he gonna attack me? or just talk to me? None of the games now have that element. There is almost no point to playing them.
I've played WOW and SWG. They are horrible in comparison to Ultima Online circa 1998. In fact i play a player run server now for UO (1998 Version). Yes, i've given up all teh fancy graphics for the classic of all MMORPGS. And you know what? I'm hooked again. See all those games to the left. Most of them are junk, none have FFA PVP. I bet no one ever makes another game like that. Its a shame, all of you are paying monthly fees for games with no major innovations. They are all the same, clones of each other.
I've played other MMORPGS too and my final conclusion is that UO was the best. I don't care about the graphics anymore. I just want well rounded game mechanics. Some of you may just want PVE or no PVP. Thats fine.
The main reason to play online games with people. (1) To compete against an opponents that thinks with a brain and not AI. Why the hell would anyone buy Dungeons and Dragons Online, its not even a MMORPG. Neverwinter Nights is the same thing, and you dont have to pay monthly fees. I can't understand this.
And i agree with the original poster. Having uber loot that can't be lost or looted just makes those great for Online Farmers to sell on EBAY. A FFA PVP game would elimnate all of that, and the only thing they could do is sell gold or credits. That being said. If you have looting and FFA PVP, the prices on everything will be so low you wont need to buy any currency off EBAY. You can put all those Online Farming setups out of business so we can enjoy this game.
So for now, i'm gonna play old school Ultima Online. I'm happy again. I'll wait till some other developer has the balls to make another FFA PVP game.
If you dont want anything to do with FFA PVP, then thats your perogative. I have nothing against you, just dont bash those that want a greifing, scamming, player killing game. Sure there are evil people that play these but there are also good people too. And this is where a great online community is born. This is what makes the game worth playing, this is the real challenge.
You can say I have zero clue and tell me to shut my mouth (which makes you look like the typical PvPing dick), but all you're doing is stating your OPINION and PREFERENCE, just like every other damned person in this (almost pointless) thread.
So you like Ultima Online, who gives a rats...just like nobody cares about whether I like FFA PvP or not. That's my opinion too, and I don't care much whether people agree with me. The FACT FACT FACT is that despite the points you made in your post, there are still WAY too many bad features in FFA PvP for them to become a mainstream thing.
(BTW, Your points can easily be slapped aside anyway: (1) plenty of other ways to moneysink and destroy items in MMOs that don't lead to the cesspit that is FFA PvP (2) Being killed by people levels and levels above you, and being jumped on when you're doing something else, particularly if you've reached low health is just day-spoiling, insecure, anti-social, weak-minded, insipid behaviour, I'm not accepting THAT in any game I play, it's called bad-sportsmanship!! No adrenaline rush for me on EITHER side of THAT particular equation! (3) If towns were SAFE in UO back in "the day", then it WASN'T! true FFA PvP, now, was it!? The rest of your post is JUST your opinion...and can be taken with a grain of salt, just as mine can)
I'm glad you found your niche, just be prepared to play with VERY VERY FEW people...for the rest of your life.
Have a nice day! And watch your back...I'm sure there's a whole 2 or 3 other players on that UO server too, they might sneak up on you in the utter ghostland. j/k
(Nah, really I've heard a lot of good things about UO, from real-life friends, each to their own. I just think it's a factor of which MMO was your "first" as to the one you feel fondest about.)
Have you played it? Did you ever play Ultima Online from 1997-1998? Your right, I shouldnt have told ya to shut your mouth lol, had a few drinks in me and got upset, i'm not here to make enemies. Except my apology. But if you havent played UO from that time period, then I'm not sure you have a clear idea of what it was like or what my points mean. Thats all i'm saying. If your interested in getting a taste of it let it know. By the way, I dont PVP that much. It was just the thought that you had to always keep on your toes and watch your back. Avoiding thieves and what not.
No probs mate, I'm not looking to make enemies either. And no, I didn't play it back in 97, 98 so I don't know exactly how it was. I'd have tried the current version (always into trying new MMOs) but my friend (who loved the original) says it's not nearly as good now, so I never bothered. (He does still jump back into the current one every now and then though...I think for old time's sake)
I do understand what you're saying though, it would provide a certain atmosphere, and a bit more "reality" than just knowing where your mob of choice would always be roaming.
Even though UO was safe in all but one town, it was very very very much FFA PVP. You were safe in town because the guards would kill you if you made an aggressive act on another player or npc. In all towns except Bucs Den the guards would kill those who transgresed upon another. However, you were still able to steal/attack someone. Stealing was possible but if you were caught, if your stealing was low or you failed etc, then the guards could be called and you would be killed instantly. It was still possible to get killed in town by another player, but that means that it would take a group or more people to openly attack you in town each dieing instantly after getting one hit or spell off, as well as all of them receiving murder counts. Even in this scenario you are not guaranteed to die, but if you did you have the satisfaction of giving all the players who did any damage to you a murder count. 5 counts and you go red..... So yes while it was very safe in town, it was not 100%, the towns just provided a realistic level of protection as any good king/lord would do for his subject while in the safety of his/her town.
Yeah exactly. It was the atmosphere that it provided. Thats what i'm missing in playing some of these newer MMOPRGS. I stopped playing UO for 3 yrs. Its only now after playing WOW, SWG, City of Villians , etc that i've decided that its that FFA atomosphere I desire. Thankfully I found a player run server that gives me that fix again.
Your other point about just going from one MOB to the next is spot on too. After I completed every quest , had wealth beyond my dreams and killed everything, the only thing left to challenge me was that PVP aspect. Playing against real people, not AI. However, the PVP on most of these new games is so protected and it wasnt much fun.
I actually missed being griefed, scammed and looted. It was more to reality than whats being produced now. The friends and alliances you made during these tough encounters really lasted the longest and meant the most.
After playing UO for so long and realizing that I was in love with the old school PVP "griefing (which is a pussy word for I cant handle being PK'd)". It made the game fun, the thrill of the chase or being chased. In UO you could have a character on a shard for PK PVP or a nobleman who tries to hunt PKers. Ultima Online lost its touch with this but I believe other games in the future will pick it up.
Nowadays I just see games that are truly focused on role-play. If I wanted to fight monsters all day that were all AI I would play games that I wouldnt have to subscribe to monthly and just pay the one time fee of owning the damn game. If its companionship your looking for play team starcraft.
Another thing, why has consentual PvP gotten so popular? I mean player versus player should be what it is, a person who wants to combat another person. Why does it have to be consentual...its not sex or rape...its war. (please no cheesy comments on love and war...)... I guess I am more of a real life role player, I like games to be realistic (besides the fantasy/scifi aspect), life in games should be harsh, not easy flowing..its early if this post doesnt entirely make sense, im sorry
Ive got two choices, run, or stay and fight...And I dont see no doors...
Wow, i must say Kade pretty much laid it all out. Very nice post. Asdar and Gunga, and others who im forgetting, also have some very admirable posts in this thread on behalf of FFA full-loot pvp.
All the idiots who posted 10 word flames supporting FFA full loot pvp... seriously, stop using forums. i know your probably pretty cool ingame and whatnot but just dont use forums, and if you come to darkfall, and i see you, lol "let there be war". good ol' fashioned 1 on 1 heh
_______________________________________________
Games looking forward to: Fallen Earth, Mortal Online
The noob formally not known as not being the formally not unkown known APEist; The Stone Cold Killer of Tarq.
I think FFA PVP with FFA looting is sorta ridiculous, because say you get all the massive gear. get gfanked and now have nothign so you can't kill anyone after that and then you get mad and upset and never play the game again. What the point of it?
I love pvp and FFA pvp jsut nto FFA looting of corpse. Maybe if you could like take items out of the backpack but not equip.
---------------------------------------------
WoW
-Rhalon 85 B.E. rogue
-Rhalon 81 UD Mage
-Doneski 85 Orc death knight
"Everyones life has a beginning and an end, No one can change that."-Hiko
"If you wish to taste the ground, then feel free to attack."-Kenshin Himura
---------------------------------------------
I think FFA PvP with massive gear is sorta ridiculous because that kind of gear only exists to buff the buffed and increase the gap. Oh, the satisfaction of wielding a fiery +21 sword of newbmaimship or launching lightning bolts from the +23 composite longbow of thunder, but really... No.
Your character should be of far greater importance than your gear.
When it comes to griefing: There may be things that are good and right which is called griefing, but to simply dismiss it as a "pussy word" from the "other side" is not going to help anybody.
Of course, if the game says it is ok, then it is, and the game just isn't for those who don't want it. But that doesn't mean those who complain of griefing aren't capable of handling PK. It means something about that particular game (and every single clone of it) is wrong, at least for them. They need a better, or at least different, game.
And I think of griefing as the purposeful act of making somebody else's game miserable. Making it impossible to play because they can hardly get started before they're knocked out - again and again. And here I'm talking of a targeted newcomer, not just random encounters with other players.
IMHO
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I think I'll review my opinion on what killed ffa pvp to griefing and bad game design.
To the guy who said griefing is just another pussy word for I don't like being pk'ed think of the bad game design in current games and try to understand that if you don't have a chance at all at either running away from danger or using that adrenaline rush to kill your oponent it's not a challenge. Most people are not comming from UO in '97 or '98, they're comming from EQ or WoW points of view.
I truly understand your wish for a good ffa pvp game but I don't see any mmorpg implementing it in a way that could allow for a reasonable fanbase to sustain it (at least 5k people for very low dev-cost). Reason being is that you underestimate the size of the group mostly looking to kill people that don't have a chance against them in these type of games. They prefer it to be real people rather then AI just because they know they caused someone to get upset irl (even pvp'ers don't like to get killed, they want to win). It's not only about the challenge, I've seen AI done in a way that a single player can never defeat a monster and that it takes a group hours to kill it. That AI had random moves, attack resistances, spellcasting (full PvP spell acces for the monster) etc. You can make AI far more challenging then PvP can ever be.
To me mmorpg's are for playing together in a roleplaying environment with graphics and not just against eachother. To each their own type of fun. If you can't accept that I pay a monthly fee for that why don't you just go play counterstrike.
Design notes if ffa pvp with looting is to be implemented in any game
The most important part is being able to regain what you lost in PvP almost instantly in PvE/crafting content along with an easy levelling curve (rpg logic, not fps). It'll create incentive and fun. Most people think of their hours of grinding and are indeed more attached to their items/lvls then to their characters hence they become the enemies of looting/permadeath in PvP. "I worked hard for my pixels I want to keep them."
Law system is the next important thing. If you want to play a villain, fine, but there are risks to that too, if it's about realism, that's easily compared to real life (don't say me to not compare because an rpg IS a simulation of an alternate life). Society provides protection for the weaker people. Parents protect their children, guilds protect their members etc. If someone disappears from the face of the earth someone else will get curious as to why. And yes that can be NPC guards.
Lastly I agree on the permadeath option. You want FFA PvP with looting, alright that's maximum reward accept to take maximum risk with it. If you're not willing to take that risk in a game even in a guild vs guild war you shouldn't get maximum reward.
-