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disstress
Member Posts: 417
While PvP is very important to us, expect EQ-like PvP at first (though hopefully more balanced).Awesome ideas and discussion. Definitely an area I'd like to explore with alternate ruleset servers. Likely not to be a server type available at launch.
^^ from the president of sigil , basically a FU to all PvP players out there, I was sceptical at first to follow the EQ guys, but now I will not give one red cent to theses guys. DEVELOP PVP FIRST or go away....
Comments
People like to play against another player, rather than against an NPC.
But PVP needs to be balanced and fun, and unfortunately only a couple of games come close to that.
WOW has hilighted how much people like PVP, and now every company is following, rightly.
Having said that, Vanguard will be an awesome PVE game, therefore I don't think it really needs PVP.
I only hope that if/when PVP will be implemented, it will be decent.
I rather prefer to have no PVP at all, than having a crappy PVP ala EQ (Arenas and Duels........)
I suggest you to give it a try anyway, you might like it, and who knows maybe even the PVP will be great.
As I said several times, it is still to early to make any definitive judgement on Vanguard, because it is still a work in progress.
have you read the faq? i hope the quote at the bottom clears things up for you a bit
"15.2 Will there be Player vs. Player servers?
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Thank you, now I don't have to look it up
. I'll probably try both types at first, picking of course the more hardcore of PvP servers. WoW PvP is kinda sucky, anyone who has played it should know that it isn't anything to write home about. DAoC has it goin' on as far as PvP, I hope Vanguard also has a reason to PvP other than to dance on someones grave.
I don't need PvP though to have fun, just that the game itself is challenging and rewarding! EQ was very satisfying for me because of the immense challenge, from level 1 to defeating gods, they never spoonfed you anything. I don't want a game that 4 million people like because I for one think most people don't really want a serious challenge. I quit WoW because I just got bored, level 60 is just inevitable and not a challenge at all.
I thank the good lord that so many people are saying "I won't be trying Vanguard." I'm a punk rocker at heart and this tells me that Sigil is doing something right! The masses are sheep that need to be led down a path to the high end of a game, those of use who crave a challenge take the path less travelled and we truly get more out of our games.
Have fun in Candyland Online!
have you read the statements from the devs, the faq goes against these comments, EQ pvp=lol
have you read the statements from the devs, the faq goes against these comments, EQ pvp=lol
So, what was wrong with EQ PvP just so we know you aren't fos?
EQ PvP was implemented after PVE, therefore it was unbalanced and laughable at its most core of qualities. It was a gankfest and nothing more. PvP needs content just like PvE, having PvP swept to the side as a "nifty addon" is insulting.
have you read the statements from the devs, the faq goes against these comments, EQ pvp=lol
i cant say that i know what statements you are talking about that "go against" the faq, hmm maybe you could be so kind as to post them here?
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Hrm, how can I say this without offending anyone..I don't think they are trying to attract "those" players.
Besides, comparing to other MMORPGs is usually bad. WOW has got to be one of the easiest online games ive played in my life, hell you need PvP just to break the boredom there.
Keep in mind, im all for some PvP action, but I think it belongs most in FPS etc. Speaking of which, off to kill some peeps in BF2...
EQ PvP was implemented after PVE, therefore it was unbalanced and laughable at its most core of qualities. It was a gankfest and nothing more. PvP needs content just like PvE, having PvP swept to the side as a "nifty addon" is insulting.
Ok you aren't FOS, just checking
Hrm, how can I say this without offending anyone..I don't think they are trying to attract "those" players.
Besides, comparing to other MMORPGs is usually bad. WOW has got to be one of the easiest online games ive played in my life, hell you need PvP just to break the boredom there.
Keep in mind, im all for some PvP action, but I think it belongs most in FPS etc. Speaking of which, off to kill some peeps in BF2...
Absolutely couldn't agree more, you articulated my sentiments and a lot of peoples around here exactly. Now if they would just make a BF2 MMOG.......
Hrm, how can I say this without offending anyone..I don't think they are trying to attract "those" players.
Besides, comparing to other MMORPGs is usually bad. WOW has got to be one of the easiest online games ive played in my life, hell you need PvP just to break the boredom there.
Keep in mind, im all for some PvP action, but I think it belongs most in FPS etc. Speaking of which, off to kill some peeps in BF2...
the majority of people that play mmorpgs perfer pvp
mmogchart.com
PVP: 5.42 Million
PVE : 3.5 Million
now, for microsoft(who is behind sigil on this) to not want to make more money is completly not true, they are screwing themselves, pvp does not mean duels and guild wars, look at the success of DAoC, will these companies never learn?
BUILD A GAME WITH PVP IN MIND, good thing that the great minds behind DAoC are doing warhammer...
While PvP is very important to us, expect EQ-like PvP at first (though hopefully more balanced)
It's really just a matter of how much time we have to finish the game.
^^ from Aradune-Aradune Mithara, President/CEO/Co-Produce
sorry I didn't post this sooner, was busy playing games
While PvP is very important to us, expect EQ-like PvP at first (though hopefully more balanced)
It's really just a matter of how much time we have to finish the game.
^^ from Aradune-Aradune Mithara, President/CEO/Co-Produce
sorry I didn't post this sooner, was busy playing games
ok ya i have read that , and im just curious if thats the same thred i got it from because if it is that may not be acurate because the op has no idea how old that quote is. see for yourself below
"Originally Posted by Aradune
While PvP is very important to us, expect EQ-like PvP at first (though hopefully more balanced). Please don't take this as an indication that we don't feel it's important. It's really just a matter of how much time we have to finish the game. I would much rather keep improving PvP after-launch than rush it, or rush something else.
We're at a point now where we're more focused on what it will take to get this game out the door. We have to change from idealists to realists. I'm letting you guys know this to manage expectations -- I think it's the right thing to do.
We have a LOT of ideas for alternate ruleset servers, and not all of them are PvP related. We are architecting things such that implementing variations in the mechanics won't be too hard. So we have big plans, but we also have to draw a line somewhre and say 'this is good enough to ship -- Vanguard will be an awesome game at launch, but then become even more awesome'. - Aradune
Realm v Realm
Awesome ideas and discussion. Definitely an area I'd like to explore with alternate ruleset servers. Likely not to be a server type available at launch.
Now the author of this info was Aradune. You know....Aradune Mithara, President/CEO/Co-Producer of this game!
The only thing I don't know is when exactly this post was written. If this is a fairly old post then maybe"
ok so even if this is acurate i still dont see how this could be going against what the faq stated. im not arguing the fact that vanguard will be a pve geared game. mainly for the hardcore pve'er, but there will be pvp servers at launch witch was my original argument. now how good will it be remains to be seen but i played eq on vallon zek pvp server and i loved it! so if its like that or better ill welcome it with open arms
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I, for one, expect two totally different things from my PvE and PvP games that cannot co-exist in a game.
In a PvE game, I expect very hard PvE. In a PvP game, I don't expect PvE to be too hard or time consuming, I am not playing to PvE in a PvP game.
In a PvE game, I expect death to really hurt. There has to be something to discourage dying over and over. In a PvP game, I expect death to be mostly meaningless. I want a system that encourages taking crazy risks and dying over and over (to other players).
In a PvE game, I want something item centric. In a PvP game, I want the good items to be easier to obtain, or obtainable through PvP so the edge doesn't go to those who spend more time in PvE.
In other words, they should basically be total opposites when it comes to their PvE and item aspects. And even further in PvP, I despise open PvP and prefer the RvR system of DAoC.
All that is why Vanguard is currently my most highly anticipated PvE game while Warhammer is my most highly anticipated PvP game.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I have no interest in PvP, and I'm not alone.
Have a look around pretty much any WoW server sometime. Go to the AH, and check out the level 60's. There are many that don't have any pvp title at all, and all you need is 10 pvp kills (honorable) top get private or scout. They, obviously, aren't interested in PvP either. Now, you could claim that all the people who play games that support PvP are in love with the idea of PvP. But you'd be no more correct than if you claimed that all people who play video games are 15 year old, pimple-ridden geeks.
[edit: Just to clarify : Just because people play a game that supports PvP, but is not centered wholly on PvP, doesn't mean they want to PvP. And anyone that claims otherwise is deliberately manipulating statistics. It's obvious to the least intelligent.]
I don't enjoy PvP. More specifically, I don't enjoy the company of those who are gung-ho about PvP. I find them to be ,more often than not, pompous zealots who derive fun from the angering of others. I find that childish at the least, and annoying as hell. I have no interest in being teamed with those people, let alone have them corpse camp me, or gank me, or spawn camp, or any of the other things possible in all but an impossibly perfect PvP game. The only entertaining facet of PvP games, is the hypocrisy of those who fall victim to thier own childish and dishonorable tactics and get pissed off about it.
You will never have PvP that's perfectly balanced in a PvE game. There are plenty of people who aren't interested in PvP, and who prefer the PvE game. A company that recognizes this, and chooses to build a PvE game, is no more telling you to **** off, then Ferarri is for building sports cars instead of pickups.
Seriously, get a grip.
Although you did provide me with plenty of evidence for why I don't care to play games with gung-ho PvP'ers.
-Feyshtey-
Get a grip? You did nothing but flame me, in an attempt to be bombastic, but yet nothing came out except for you crying about your bad experiences with PvP.
Childish? People that like to compete are little kids? So all sports all around the world are just played and watched by little kids?
Pitting a person against another person to see who comes out the winner is the basis for much of the entertainment in the world.
According to your ill attempt at a flame, you say this is just for fifteen year olds with pimples.
You cry about corpse camping and ganking, these are parts of PvP. In most games they are avoidable. If you want to just PvE why not just play console RPGs or game boy final fantasy?
What is realistic about Orcs, Trolls, Elves, Dwarves, or shooting fireballs out of your hand? I don't want a game that is too realistic, I want a game that is fun. And there is nothing fun about getting killed by another player when you are trying to PvE. There is nothing fun about having your corpse camped. There is nothing fun about being ganked by a player or group of them that you have no chance to defeat. Full PvP is about as fun as having random high level mobs pop up in newbie grounds, it may be fun for the mobs, but it is just frustrating for the newbies.
Just look at every US game on the market, and you will see that players prefer no PvP or restricted PvP over full PvP. A game must be designed from the beginning to handle good restricted PvP. Full PvP just isn't that much fun to a vast majority of the player base. Even in DAoC, a game designed with a PvP end game, fewer than 2% of the player base plays on the full PvP server. It has a lower population than the full PvE server. A game designed for PvP and more would rather have no PvP than have full PvP.
Myself, I just can't see how having unrestricted PvP could be fun in a hard PvE game, or how having hard PvE could be fun in any PvP game. They are two totally separate goals that really need two totally separate games to work.
Putting off developing PvP is the best thing that can happen to Vanguard. To many games try to do to much at release and end up being mediorce in everything. Developing a games core gameplay for release should always be the focus. Vanguard is already trying to do a lot for release. Diplomacy, new crafting system, city building, perception system, 16 classes, huge world, boats, ship fighting after release, huge dungeons, advanced encounter system, no instancing, and so much more. The devs need to make the pve game fun and work first. With development costs so high and games being forced to release years earlier than they should it will be a miracle if they can get the pve game finished, polished and fun for release.
Look at DAOC, thier pvp system (the rp system) didn't even get implemented until 6 months after release. A year after DAOC's releasde you couldn't get 50 people togther without massive server crashes. DAOC had the luxury of slow leveling allowing Mythic time to develop the pvp content. Vanguard will have this same luxury of time with slow leveling. I am not going to say that DAOC's pvp was great but that the thier, emain 24 hour a pvp whenever you want it, was well done and thier rp sytem which tied pvp to class progression was addictive and added a lot to the game. DAOC IMO had the best combination of pvp and pve of any game yet to be released and is a good role model for what Vanguard is trying to do a pve game with some pvp (on pvp servers). Vanguard while not a pvp game it shares a lot in common with DAOC both being pve games first and having the luxury of long leveling cycles.
I don't see how the Devs can finish Vanguard's pve game in time for release besides even think about developing and balancing pvp servers. I am sure they have ideas ready for pvp servers but implementing them simply cannot be a priority now. Unlike many games, like WoW, the end game will be further off thanks to a long leveling system which will give Sigil more time to devolop high end pve game content as well as develop its pvp servers.
The idea that a pvper may have to play thier first year on a pve server or on a pvp eq1 type ruleset server may be frustrating but is there another alternative. The only other alternative besides pushing back release is watering down the pve content. I would be all for pushing back release for a couple of extra years but I doubt that it is something that makes financial sense to Sigil or Microsoft.
The 'Get a grip' remark was in reference only to the statement that not including PvP is a direct **** you to the PvP crowd. It's not. It's a choice in game direction. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not personal. It would be no more appropriate for me to go to the DAoC boards and tell them that including PvP is a direct **** you to me as a person who prefers PvE. Or going to the SWG boards and claiming they're giving me a great big **** you because that game isn't based in a high fantasy world, but instead Sci-Fi.
Taking it personal is pointless. If this game doesn't offer what you want, there are other options available. You and I need to identify our desires, and seek out products that fit those desires. No company is out to deliberately piss you off. They are just out to deliberate satisfy others. Suggesting otherwise lacks evidential logic. Thus the 'Get a grip' remark.
And if you took offense to the PvP crowd that I prefer to avoid, then I don't know what to tell you. If you're one of those that /em pisses on Feyshtey's corpse, or corpse camps, or spawn camps, or zone ganks, then yeah, you deserve the flame, and the description of being childish. There's nothing sportsmanlike about any of those behaviours, and yeah, I see people who behave like that as childish. Honest, sporting competition is wonderful, and I thoroughly enjoy it. It's just not something you can find with any regularity in anonymous online PvP games.
Now that's not to say that there aren't honorable and mature PvP'ers. But the others are exactly why I avoid PvP games at all costs. If you're one of the honoroable and mature players, I would think it easy for you to appreciate my stance.
Or, ... and here's a REALLY crazy idea, ... play a PvE game?
I enjoy teamwork. I enjoy community. I enjoy making online friends and alliances. How are any of those less valid in a PvE game? How do I enjoy those during my playtime in a console RPG?
I don't fault anyone for enjoying PvP. There are many many reasons for enjoying them, not the least of which being the challenge. But suggesting that any game has to have PvP is an arrogant and self-centered approach. I don't suggest that PvP is not worth it, or suggest that all PvP'ers be left to play Counterstrike. I just suggest that THIS GAME is not focusing on PvP. That's one of the reasons I'm following Vanguard and supporting it. If you NEED PvP, go find an upcoming (or one of the many existing) game that has PvP at it's core, and support it.
-Feyshtey-
If Brad hadn't said that there would be PvP and they would focus on releasing PvP servers at launch, then I wouldn't be posting here. But after his comments and promises comes this... I have no problem with a PvE game coming out, I am not on the DnD boards talking about no PvP, I'm not all over EQ2, the fact is that Brad promised a focus on PvP.
DAoC had the best system IMO, you couldn't grief because you choose to participate. A few months ago on the forums on PvP was a big topic(the V:SOH forums) and I understand that many people don't like PvP, mostly based on poor PvP games. But don't promise a new game and say "ya we are going to have pvp and focus on it being a part of our release on alternate ruleset servers, of which we will have many", then say "sorry guys no pvp here, you can duel and stuff but no pvp content is going to come for a long time".
Sigil and Microsoft have vets on this, its not as if the entire development schedule was not planned. There is too much money behind this game.
Its obivous that I am jaded by this news, and this news is meant for those that don't frequent the V:SOH boards, yet still thought that Brad's promises of a well thought out PvP system would be in place at launch. The MMO community needs a new PvP home and so far there is none. DAoC is an old game, do we have to wait for warhammer to see a new one?
Brad has been saying for a long time that pve is thier focus and has also said on a number of occassions before that pvp would be done on the fly after release. I disagree and rather think it is not a surprise.
But i do agree with you about DAOC. One thing DAOC did really well was eliminating trash talking and juvenile behavior by not letting opposing realms speak with each other.
What is realistic about Orcs, Trolls, Elves, Dwarves, or shooting fireballs out of your hand? I don't want a game that is too realistic, I want a game that is fun. And there is nothing fun about getting killed by another player when you are trying to PvE. There is nothing fun about having your corpse camped. There is nothing fun about being ganked by a player or group of them that you have no chance to defeat. Full PvP is about as fun as having random high level mobs pop up in newbie grounds, it may be fun for the mobs, but it is just frustrating for the newbies.
Just look at every US game on the market, and you will see that players prefer no PvP or restricted PvP over full PvP. A game must be designed from the beginning to handle good restricted PvP. Full PvP just isn't that much fun to a vast majority of the player base. Even in DAoC, a game designed with a PvP end game, fewer than 2% of the player base plays on the full PvP server. It has a lower population than the full PvE server. A game designed for PvP and more would rather have no PvP than have full PvP.
Myself, I just can't see how having unrestricted PvP could be fun in a hard PvE game, or how having hard PvE could be fun in any PvP game. They are two totally separate goals that really need two totally separate games to work.
thats why there is a option to be on a pvp server lol, i have played eq on a pvp server (witch is about as hardcore pve as you can get).... and i loved it. the server i was on had rules like no corpse camping, training mobs, and portal camping. as long as they dont force people to pvp i dont see any problem with it, if you want to pvp join a pvp server if you dont then join a regular server.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Either you've been misinformed by someone, or that's a bold-faced lie. I've been following Sigil's actions since thier forums opened, before they had even announced that their game was going to be high fantasy. I've followed the game very closely since they announced the title and theme. They've never 'promised' anything. And I don't mean that they haven't promised PvP. They promised nothing. They've made it a very very strict point to set expectations, and made it abundently clear that nothing is a promise. That being said, they've not even suggested PvP as a focus in this game. Ever. The closest they've come is to say that they hope to support PvP on alternate rules servers, and they hope that they can have those servers at release. They've said specifically that they have no intention of doing RvR servers at release, or have any plans for them anywhere shortly after release.
Now, they have said that what they do for PvP, they hope to do well. BUT, they've not promised anything. And by the most outrageous stretch of the imagination, they've never ever ever suggested that the core focus of the game was going to be PvP. If this is what you're basing your 'giving us the big **** you' stance on, save it. It's misplaced.
Funny. They've never said either. They've never said there would be many PvP servers at release and have said only that they hope to have PvP on a couple of alternate rules servers at release. (READ AS: NO PROMISES) And they've also never said that they were not going to have PvP, and were only going to support duels. Where are you getting your information? Because frankly, as a staff member of the single most updated Vanguard fansite, I've never heard it.
Yes, the developement schedule is more or less planned. However, the game itself still has "if's". IF this works, we'll use it. IF we have time, we'll do it. IF we can make it fit, we'll use it. IF this doesn't work, we have a plan B. These are the kinds of statements the devs have made about pretty much everything. The only absolute concrete that we've ever gotten from them on any topic is that there will not be an XBox360 version at release. That leaves EVERYTHING else pretty open to change.
I have a hell of a lot of respect for how they are managing expectations. THey aren't promising anything to anyone, because they don't need people running off to the forums with "BUT THEY PROMISED!!!". They are vets, and they realize that even if they are extremely careful not to promise a damn thing on any topic, if they passingly suggest something might be possible, someone will still claim they promised it. Even if there's no truth to it whatsoever. But for the more realistic customers, they are making it very very clear, that everything is subject to adjustment, and they have a plan B for pretty much everything.
Well here's my bit of news for folks that don't visit the VSOH boards (like I do, multiple times a day), and read every single dev quote that are compiled from there and about 10 other sites (like I do).
Vanguard never 'promised' anything on any topic (wait... that's a lie. They jokingly promised rocks, and trees, and a sky at one point...)
Vanguard never 'promised' PVP at all. But what they've suggested they'd like to do is have alternate rules servers that support PVP. However, they have never had any at-release plans for anything like RVR servers.
Clear things up for you?
-Feyshtey-
Brad-I'm not a big PvP player, nor a big crafter, but I truly believe I could be, which is why they are both important for Vanguard -- our next game will offer PvP and Crafting systems that will appeal to the type of gamer I am as well as the traditional player.
Brad-PvP is still important to us and will be available in alternate ruleset servers. As for balance, the combat formulae, etc., will be different for PvP, so it will be much easier to balance the two systems
From the FAQ:15.2 Will there be Player vs. Player servers?
Yes, and hopefully several variants. How many might be available at launch is up in the air at this point.
Now this isn't from Brads lips, but just as good:
http://www.thesafehouse.org/gallery/albums/album06/SafehouseE3Video2.wmv
But I'm just a lying doochebag kiddie that is spouting lies and slander and should be shot or drawn and quartered or whatever it is that PvE people pretend to do.