Though the main slideshow is now hidden, just expand the outline and you can see plainly what Koster is talking about.
This is all about his machiavellian methods for controlling the community, it has nothing to do with the competence of one of his minions.
The community managers are there for one purpose only - to do the bidding of the SOE managment, in a planned community that follows this outline. Nothing Koster has ever said has ever changed, he is one of those that will never admit when he is wrong. The SWG community as it stands today is the result of this vision, and nothing has changed in all this time.
I swear, reading Raph Koster's webpage is like reading a copy of Mein Kampf. In hindsight, it's plainly obvious what he was talking about.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Yeah it's for real madazz, this was delivered at the 2002 Austin Game Developer's Conference.
From his website, Raph describes the slideshow as thus -
"The joint GDC 2002 presentation done with Rich Vogel. This is basically a Machiavellian guide to viral marketing, stealing someone else's community, politicking to keep the community calmed down and happy, and similar tactics. If you're a player of online games, please skip reading it. "
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Originally posted by sidebuster Now that some body rehashed some olllld ass thread, do you still feel the same way about swg enigma?
ha now this thread is just plum OLD.
Do I feel the same way? Hmm good question. Well...the thing is, the DEVs (the ones I didn't like on the SWG team) are gone from the project.
I haven't really seen any censorship on the forums now but the first 8 months of release, censorship on the SWG forums was very tight. If you did not have a subscription to SWG then you could not even look at the forum much less type in it.
However, those tight days are gone. Usually, the ones who get their posts locked now are those who keep on posting the same issue eevry day (spamming) or blatant vulgarity. Im not saying censorship doesnt happen anymore. I just haven't seen any.
About the Jedi? Yeah. too many Jedi. WAY too many Jedi.
The CU upgrade...even though the changes were harsh, did add a bit of excitement back into the game. I just wished there were more people on. Ill be lucky to find 5 on a PLANET thats not Dantoinne or Naboo lol.
Overall, I would have to say they improved since they got Raph off the captain's chair. Man....he ...well, Ill keep my mouth shut.
You can tell that they are trying (even though the avenues they are trying can be questionable at times).
One good thing though... I just made 50 million credits selling an anti decay kit last night. Lol..that's not bad.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
yeah that PowerPoint presentation is 100% Raph. Man, he's one of those anomolies where you just have to scratch your head and think to yourself "ok. How did he get to where he is today"
Dont mean anything bad about it, just stating fact. Raph had a whole theory set up for his SWG communities. I mean, I think that he thought he was some sorta demi god there.
About 9 months ago they did a community shake up. The moved Raph to another department but Im sure he had a "private meeting"
His idea of 100% player made content was just crazy. The majority of mmorpgers arent as die hard as he is. Many people log on and want to hunt, do quests, etc.
Raph is the type that when he logs off SWG, he'll put on his storm trooper outfit and play starwars in the backyard. That's just how "passionate" he is about fantasy. He's a die hard AD&D player (he created about 12 role playing games in high school alone) and he got lucky. Lol, now he's a rich die hard AD&D player. Crazy thing is, he started making it big at Ultima online as an artist....ever seen his artwork? Interesting. I would love to do an interview someday with him.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Originally posted by En1Gma yeah that PowerPoint presentation is 100% Raph. Man, he's one of those anomolies where you just have to scratch your head and think to yourself "ok. How did he get to where he is today" Dont mean anything bad about it, just stating fact. Raph had a whole theory set up for his SWG communities. I mean, I think that he thought he was some sorta demi god there. About 9 months ago they did a community shake up. The moved Raph to another department but Im sure he had a "private meeting" His idea of 100% player made content was just crazy. The majority of mmorpgers arent as die hard as he is. Many people log on and want to hunt, do quests, etc. Raph is the type that when he logs off SWG, he'll put on his storm trooper outfit and play starwars in the backyard. That's just how "passionate" he is about fantasy. He's a die hard AD&D player (he created about 12 role playing games in high school alone) and he got lucky. Lol, now he's a rich die hard AD&D player. Crazy thing is, he started making it big at Ultima online as an artist....ever seen his artwork? Interesting. I would love to do an interview someday with him.
If you ever get the chance just tell me when and where and I will bring the donuts and flame thrower. We might be able to get Wepps to bring the chainsaw and beer.
I still think you should do an article about the truth of SWG. Let players see the real game instead of the lies told your past interviewer.
The main slideshow appears correctly if you use Internet Explorer. At least, it did for me.
I remember that presentation and the comments it generated back in 2002. I still don't see what's the big deal, I find it a pretty decent presentation with quite a few valid points.
Currently playing: * City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant. * City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
The main slideshow appears correctly if you use Internet Explorer. At least, it did for me.
I remember that presentation and the comments it generated back in 2002. I still don't see what's the big deal, I find it a pretty decent presentation with quite a few valid points.
Sure it's valid in its entirety, if you are business-minded and not quality-minded.
The real error is that this was posted publically. Among the other diabolical things actually said in the presentation, this fact is what generated the backlash.
Now let me give credit where it's due. RAPH DOES HIS HOMEWORK. He clearly, and accurately defines the problems. You can see this all over his website, and you see it in his comments. He KNOWS what he is talking about.
The problem I see is from the perspective, and from the standpoint of correctness.
PERSPECTIVE
What he is attempting to do is build a set of hard and fast rules to more efficiently manage the online community; that portion of it that visits the forums anyway. He does his homework, and finds a reasonable rule that could be perverted to apply to a specific problem.
For example - The Rule of 150
Do you know what it is?
It is the limit of number of acquaintances that a person feels comfortable with on a personal level. If you were to invite people to a gathering at your house, a party of some sort, this is the limit to which a human is capable of being comfortable.
...FROM THE STANDPOINT OF CORRECTNESS
Here is the problem with that...it doesn't apply AT ALL to an online community!
The reason is this - an online community has much different social rules than a normal, face-to-face community that we deal with. People are perfectly comfortable posting online, regardless of the nonsense they spew, because they are removed personally from the potential negativity they may generate. The Internet is the post-modern Great Equalizer in that respect, and this is where the Rule of 150 falls apart.
So why try and apply it? Because there is an alternate objective here, and it has to do with perspective. From the standpoint of the COMPANY running the forum for their purpose, this is the maximum number...which THEY are comfortable with, beyond which they get nervous and more detailed in what is being said.
Raph Koster has seen the truth of it, but he has seen it from the standpoint of the COMPANY, rather than the customer, and hence the backlash.
What he and Vogel have never really come to grips with is that the COMMUNITY is what determines whether or not you have a hit, not the investor. Not the publisher. The players and the investors do NOT get along, and seeing it from the company's perspective adds fuel to that fire.
Here is why - a publisher or investor wants one thing, money. And they want it now, regardless of whether or not the product is 'ready' for delivery. They don't care about the product, the quality. The customer does, though, and is tired of being handed crap because the publisher is blind to this fact. The customer and the publisher, then, are constantly at odds.
So, how do you provide a product of excellent quality to the customer when the real authority is breathing on your neck?
You don't, and therefore you must justify in other terms familiar to the customer why certain things are impossible without actually assigning the blame where it belongs.
The real problem today in MMO design is that it is VERY DIFFICULT TO DO WITHOUT A PUBLISHER. An MMO design can cost anywhere from $10 to $33 million or more to deliver to the public. Either you have the money to invest yourself, or you must seek a publisher, or at the very least, a board of directors made up of investors. Either of these cases places, by it's nature of addressing finances FIRST, the product itself in jeopardy of not returning what is expected.
The SOE/Lucas relationship is precisely this. It is a Publisher/Developer relationship that has not addressed the needs of the potential customer base, but rather business considerations, and this is the only reason you are seeing a new expansion being spoken of...
The problem is, he may be smart, but he applied his intelligence to the needs of the COMPANY rather than the needs of the customers, and in the end customer retention being the primary issue with MMOs, failed in that regard.
So, why was EQ so successful?
A number of reasons, not the least of which it was mostly developed by the time SOE got there. SOE was at THAT TIME...the publisher in this regard. They were the nasty animal breathing down Verant's neck while they were trying to finish the quality aspects of the game.
Given that, the game had most of the content in place, a finished combat system that is overwhelming, and it also had the distinction of being one of the first 2 MMOs on the market. EQ was THE alternative to UO at the time, a product that Koster/Vogel were in the process of making major changes to.
In the end, my problem with Koster is twofold -
1 - His conclusions are all wrong because they don't jive with the needs of the customers, and since quality is the NUMBER ONE issue for customer retention in this industry, he has failed to provide this. The number TWO issue is trust, and because of the "how to manage a large-scale..." presentation that was made public, he has failed in this regard as well. SOE lost a lot of trust when this went public, and it was entirely his doing.
2 - He and Rich Vogel are considered to this day THE industry leaders, so when they speak, developers listen.
Unfortunately, because of '1', he is misdirecting them down a development cul-de-sac, and the obvious result of all this is the lower and lower quality experienced by players since Everquest.
A concentration on the company rather than the product is the main reason why people should NOT listen to his conclusions. Although I recognize his intelligence in that he is very capable of identifying the issue, I would take his conclusions with a grain of salt if you intend to put an excellent quality product on the market. His conclusions do not jive with the principles of quality of product.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Right on Wepps, right on. I didn't know where bringing this thread back would go but I think I like where it's going. I found it interesting that though the CS and the bugs gripes haven't changed, all the other problems have. At first it was not enough, now it is too much. Very interesting, indeed.
Comments
http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/gdc_2002_community_files/frame.htm
Though the main slideshow is now hidden, just expand the outline and you can see plainly what Koster is talking about.
This is all about his machiavellian methods for controlling the community, it has nothing to do with the competence of one of his minions.
The community managers are there for one purpose only - to do the bidding of the SOE managment, in a planned community that follows this outline. Nothing Koster has ever said has ever changed, he is one of those that will never admit when he is wrong. The SWG community as it stands today is the result of this vision, and nothing has changed in all this time.
I swear, reading Raph Koster's webpage is like reading a copy of Mein Kampf. In hindsight, it's plainly obvious what he was talking about.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
The first few pages I honestly thought it was a joke. But then it kept going on and on. Its really kinda messed up way to look at/do things.
Is that for real?
Yeah it's for real madazz, this was delivered at the 2002 Austin Game Developer's Conference.
From his website, Raph describes the slideshow as thus -
"The joint GDC 2002 presentation done with Rich Vogel. This is basically a Machiavellian guide to viral marketing, stealing someone else's community, politicking to keep the community calmed down and happy, and similar tactics. If you're a player of online games, please skip reading it.
"
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
ha now this thread is just plum OLD.
Do I feel the same way? Hmm good question. Well...the thing is, the DEVs (the ones I didn't like on the SWG team) are gone from the project.
I haven't really seen any censorship on the forums now but the first 8 months of release, censorship on the SWG forums was very tight. If you did not have a subscription to SWG then you could not even look at the forum much less type in it.
However, those tight days are gone. Usually, the ones who get their posts locked now are those who keep on posting the same issue eevry day (spamming) or blatant vulgarity. Im not saying censorship doesnt happen anymore. I just haven't seen any.
About the Jedi? Yeah. too many Jedi. WAY too many Jedi.
The CU upgrade...even though the changes were harsh, did add a bit of excitement back into the game. I just wished there were more people on. Ill be lucky to find 5 on a PLANET thats not Dantoinne or Naboo lol.
Overall, I would have to say they improved since they got Raph off the captain's chair. Man....he ...well, Ill keep my mouth shut.
You can tell that they are trying (even though the avenues they are trying can be questionable at times).
One good thing though... I just made 50 million credits selling an anti decay kit last night. Lol..that's not bad.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
yeah that PowerPoint presentation is 100% Raph. Man, he's one of those anomolies where you just have to scratch your head and think to yourself "ok. How did he get to where he is today"
Dont mean anything bad about it, just stating fact. Raph had a whole theory set up for his SWG communities. I mean, I think that he thought he was some sorta demi god there.
About 9 months ago they did a community shake up. The moved Raph to another department but Im sure he had a "private meeting"
His idea of 100% player made content was just crazy. The majority of mmorpgers arent as die hard as he is. Many people log on and want to hunt, do quests, etc.
Raph is the type that when he logs off SWG, he'll put on his storm trooper outfit and play starwars in the backyard. That's just how "passionate" he is about fantasy. He's a die hard AD&D player (he created about 12 role playing games in high school alone) and he got lucky. Lol, now he's a rich die hard AD&D player. Crazy thing is, he started making it big at Ultima online as an artist....ever seen his artwork? Interesting. I would love to do an interview someday with him.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
If you ever get the chance just tell me when and where and I will bring the donuts and flame thrower. We might be able to get Wepps to bring the chainsaw and beer.
I still think you should do an article about the truth of SWG. Let players see the real game instead of the lies told your past interviewer.
Kai
The main slideshow appears correctly if you use Internet Explorer. At least, it did for me.
I remember that presentation and the comments it generated back in 2002. I still don't see what's the big deal, I find it a pretty decent presentation with quite a few valid points.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
Sure it's valid in its entirety, if you are business-minded and not quality-minded.
The real error is that this was posted publically. Among the other diabolical things actually said in the presentation, this fact is what generated the backlash.
Now let me give credit where it's due. RAPH DOES HIS HOMEWORK. He clearly, and accurately defines the problems. You can see this all over his website, and you see it in his comments. He KNOWS what he is talking about.
The problem I see is from the perspective, and from the standpoint of correctness.
PERSPECTIVE
What he is attempting to do is build a set of hard and fast rules to more efficiently manage the online community; that portion of it that visits the forums anyway. He does his homework, and finds a reasonable rule that could be perverted to apply to a specific problem.
For example - The Rule of 150
Do you know what it is?
It is the limit of number of acquaintances that a person feels comfortable with on a personal level. If you were to invite people to a gathering at your house, a party of some sort, this is the limit to which a human is capable of being comfortable.
...FROM THE STANDPOINT OF CORRECTNESS
Here is the problem with that...it doesn't apply AT ALL to an online community!
The reason is this - an online community has much different social rules than a normal, face-to-face community that we deal with. People are perfectly comfortable posting online, regardless of the nonsense they spew, because they are removed personally from the potential negativity they may generate. The Internet is the post-modern Great Equalizer in that respect, and this is where the Rule of 150 falls apart.
So why try and apply it? Because there is an alternate objective here, and it has to do with perspective. From the standpoint of the COMPANY running the forum for their purpose, this is the maximum number...which THEY are comfortable with, beyond which they get nervous and more detailed in what is being said.
Raph Koster has seen the truth of it, but he has seen it from the standpoint of the COMPANY, rather than the customer, and hence the backlash.
What he and Vogel have never really come to grips with is that the COMMUNITY is what determines whether or not you have a hit, not the investor. Not the publisher. The players and the investors do NOT get along, and seeing it from the company's perspective adds fuel to that fire.
Here is why - a publisher or investor wants one thing, money. And they want it now, regardless of whether or not the product is 'ready' for delivery. They don't care about the product, the quality. The customer does, though, and is tired of being handed crap because the publisher is blind to this fact. The customer and the publisher, then, are constantly at odds.
So, how do you provide a product of excellent quality to the customer when the real authority is breathing on your neck?
You don't, and therefore you must justify in other terms familiar to the customer why certain things are impossible without actually assigning the blame where it belongs.
The real problem today in MMO design is that it is VERY DIFFICULT TO DO WITHOUT A PUBLISHER. An MMO design can cost anywhere from $10 to $33 million or more to deliver to the public. Either you have the money to invest yourself, or you must seek a publisher, or at the very least, a board of directors made up of investors. Either of these cases places, by it's nature of addressing finances FIRST, the product itself in jeopardy of not returning what is expected.
The SOE/Lucas relationship is precisely this. It is a Publisher/Developer relationship that has not addressed the needs of the potential customer base, but rather business considerations, and this is the only reason you are seeing a new expansion being spoken of...
The problem is, he may be smart, but he applied his intelligence to the needs of the COMPANY rather than the needs of the customers, and in the end customer retention being the primary issue with MMOs, failed in that regard.
So, why was EQ so successful?
A number of reasons, not the least of which it was mostly developed by the time SOE got there. SOE was at THAT TIME...the publisher in this regard. They were the nasty animal breathing down Verant's neck while they were trying to finish the quality aspects of the game.
Given that, the game had most of the content in place, a finished combat system that is overwhelming, and it also had the distinction of being one of the first 2 MMOs on the market. EQ was THE alternative to UO at the time, a product that Koster/Vogel were in the process of making major changes to.
In the end, my problem with Koster is twofold -
1 - His conclusions are all wrong because they don't jive with the needs of the customers, and since quality is the NUMBER ONE issue for customer retention in this industry, he has failed to provide this. The number TWO issue is trust, and because of the "how to manage a large-scale..." presentation that was made public, he has failed in this regard as well. SOE lost a lot of trust when this went public, and it was entirely his doing.
2 - He and Rich Vogel are considered to this day THE industry leaders, so when they speak, developers listen.
Unfortunately, because of '1', he is misdirecting them down a development cul-de-sac, and the obvious result of all this is the lower and lower quality experienced by players since Everquest.
A concentration on the company rather than the product is the main reason why people should NOT listen to his conclusions. Although I recognize his intelligence in that he is very capable of identifying the issue, I would take his conclusions with a grain of salt if you intend to put an excellent quality product on the market. His conclusions do not jive with the principles of quality of product.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo