I think it ruins the game. Games are meant to be PLAYED.
I won't support SOE's attempt to milk every nickel out of it's memberbase. I believe it's just plain wrong to sanction the selling of in game items for real world money.
First they charge you for "Adventure Packs" that companies like NCSOFT have given for FREE in City of Heroes and Blizzard did in WoW. Then they charge you to view your charactors stats on their webpage(.99 Cents per month). The list goes on and on. I'm just amazed people actually pay for it and stand for it. There are many other gaming companies that focus on the players having FUN and understand the concept.
The most vocal opponents of the sale of in-game items are always those who use their items to extend their penis. If your enjoyment really came from personal achievement, instead of showing off with your items, you wouldn't give a damn where and how others got their items. An attempt to hide one's true, selfish loser-guy motives within a disguise of moral outrage is pathetic. Why are so many guys who play these games so lame.
Oh and by the way, the poll is screwed up because the people who are most likely to vote are the ones who hate the idea, usually for the above-mentioned reason. Those who are indifferent are not likely to vote at all.
I think if this poll was taken 2 years ago it would be about 90% of the people saying it ruins games.. But like SoE's "if you can't beat them, join them approach" (more like for SoE "we want all your economy" approach) Anyway times are changing more people playing long hours and I think many people are looking to be compensated for their time.
I know in WoW there was a lot of talk about China farmers ruining the game. imo if I was living off 30 cents a day and some over anxious gamer was willing to pay me a few hundred american dollars for some piece of fantasy crap then i'm gonna milk the market dry.
the worlds are virtual but all these worlds live in the real world. The virtual economies are a part of the games world but again in the big picture that world lives in the real world and if it caters to masses of people, has an economy, then that economy is part of the real world and will have value within the real worlds economy.
Like it or not It's been proven over and over again. that virtual economies are part of the real world which puts it inline with the worlds economies.
What does "ebaying game coin" do to the game world? It jacks prices up but in turn also adds higher value to those items players won in the game. So you play the game with both a higher seller and buyer market.
One may say "the new player won't be able to afford goods because the prices are too high" I been playing game enocomies for a long time and it's not that hard to make some coin out of nothing.. You find a few low level items that sell, nickel and dime it until you can afford to buy and sell more valueable items. In most games there is no need to pay rl cash for coins.
WoW as an experiment I took a level 3 rogue and made over 100 gold in less than 5 hours. LEVEL 3!! Took a few minutes a day for about 3 weeks to accomplished. I started with 3 silver from the newbie area, went to IF and noticed a stack of linen cloth on sale for under 3 silver that was just about to expire, placed the bid a few minutes later got the item, put it in the AH for 45silver, sold, the next day but several stacks of light leather sold it, did the same the next day within 3 or 4 days I was up to 10 gold for about 30 minutes of game play. the following week I turn it into about 30 to 40 gold gold, then went to 100 gold shortly after that.
EQ2 at the lowbie end spells sell, doing quite well making gold in the game after a few days of playing the game for the first time.
people buy accounts, there are several types of account buyers,
those that are noobs that haven't a clue what they are doing but want to be with the big boys. You can usually pick these guys off fast and know not to waste time grouping with them.
Good players that are bored and want to try a new class without losing time doing the high end content they enjoy to play. These guys are usually trading within their own guilds or high end friends.. kinda like boys trading baseball cards. More times then not the guilds and their inner circle know about the trade or account purchase.
others can be Farmers, hackers, etc...
I think RL sales of ingame items or accounts should be allowed if not it just creates a blackmarket. Blackmarket = a greater chance to be ripped off. The exchange on SoE gives the player the opportunity for a fair purchase. ( i think.. I'm not on an SoE exchange server)
Anyway take your time before buying game items for RL $$ cause in the end you may just find it a waste of cash when you upgrade to your sexy no drop items that most mmo's have waiting for you.
Also if you plan on buying a high end account, I suggest you have at least already level a toon to the high end and have some end game experience before making that purchase for a high end toon, because the high end players will notice a lack of skill and many will avoid playing with you.. many high end guilds, players, servers will go as far as blacklisting you.
Buying cash ingame or toons for real cash is foolish. These games are suppose to be fun. If its not fun to level or gain money why the heck do we play? SOE is letting people do this, because their game is boring! DAoC lets this slide, because their pve is boring! The people who buy this stuff are being duped by none other than the people the pay to play. Any game where its considered "ok" to buy money, aka, "plat", or toons is a game that many find boring. I blame the content of the game, and the gullible souls out there that play boring games.
It all comes down to community as it should in MMORPGS. If you find yourself on a server or game that seems to be chock full of bots, farming, levelling treadmill, groups that infuriate you because they wish to focus on high end gear, etc. then you are probably ona server where virtual currency is being dealt.
These communities are more competitive, less helpful and less enjoyable for pure gamers. However, to deny that aspect of a market is not going to do anyone good. Enter a server for virtual exchange.
Sony execs are not fools. They have shown us proof is in the pudding. It is profitable for such a server to exist. The question is - do the other servers have happier players now? Do "regular" servers have low populations? (I just saw an ad for 7 day free trial for EQ2 listed on this site, is this a sign of player discontent on the other servers? Are they leaving the game or moving to the Exchange Server?) If EQ2 net income is dropping because regular monthly subscribers are falling, The SOE Exchange will be short lived. If net revenue is increasing despite low regular server populations, well then, what shall we expect?
As a player who has played numerous of these MMORPGS, I have seen both sides of the issue. I have never bought virtual currency or items. I simply think its not worth my hard earned funds. I have sold an account or two because I could no longer play the game due to work/family commitments.
I can see virtual commerce a decimating community if gamers do not expect it. Remember all those times someone asked you for a buff? Some spare coinage? Help in finishing a mission? What if you knew that player asking was asking for your help not to improve his/her gaming experience but to get a leg up for a faster sell? If gamers get skeptical enough, the community will go down the toliet because no one will trust anyone. "Why should I help you make money?"
The SOE Exchange server at least lets players know what they are getting into. Everyone wins.
Originally posted by brostyn Buying cash ingame or toons for real cash is foolish. These games are suppose to be fun. If its not fun to level or gain money why the heck do we play? SOE is letting people do this, because their game is boring! DAoC lets this slide, because their pve is boring! The people who buy this stuff are being duped by none other than the people the pay to play. Any game where its considered "ok" to buy money, aka, "plat", or toons is a game that many find boring. I blame the content of the game, and the gullible souls out there that play boring games.
If the game that is being played was so boring why would someone pay more out of pocket cash to keep playing it? mmo's I played that I didn't find interesting I unsubscribed too so I wouldn't have to keep paying money too.
TBH, I have no problem with it whatsoever. The players who do it are easily distinguishable from real players. I just don't group with them as they always rack up your XP debt with their lack of game savvy. I had some LvL 48 Warlock ask me this question the other night, "What is the maximum Group size in EQ 2". I replied that a level 48 Warlock could not possibly not know the answer to that question. He fed me some stupid excuse about how he never groups and thats why he doesn't know.
Now we all know this guy is an E-bayer, and it's all good. I simply put him on ignore and went about my business. If your kick is to miss the whole point of the game and show up to wave your massive E-penis then more power to you. Personally I think you are only hurting yourself. These games are all about working your way up while learning the game's systems, questing, meeting new people and exploring. What fun is the game if you remove that?
I am under the assumption that one buys and subscribes to a 'game' to PLAY it.
If you buy virtual game items and virtual gold with real $$ - you are not 'playing' the game.
I am a professional as well. I am getting married next summer. I have tons of friends and families and I PLAY these games.
I am way behind the geeks with no life that pharm and grief and all that bs. I don't care, because I have fun PLAYING the game.
I've never paid a US dollar for a stinking piece of VIRTUAL property. And if you are one of the suckers that have, then let me tell you this: You paid something for NOTHING! You got duped. And you have NOTHING to show for the cash that you paid.
Furthermore, if you are one of those that got duped - I have many ways to recuperate that hard earned cash you spent on nothing.
1. Swamp land in Florida
2. A pyramid scheme - this one works baby
3. A new mutual fund that I created. It's called Franky's Beer Fund.
Don't be a sucka! Don't buy nothing!
Here's an idea! Just play the game stoopid! It's more fun.
"I have live my life by these nine simple words: It sounded like a good idea at the time." --Livingston Taylor
What I find more disturbing is the emerging trend that some developers are currently looking into of including real world trade as part of the game design, the so called micro purchases. In this game model the player can of course play his character as normal and collect any of the mediocre items that the game has to offer. If however that player should desire a suit of uber armour, megasword of death or rifle of doom then he purchases it, in game with real money from the game company and hey presto it appears in his inventory.
I assume that SOE is just using the phrase "if you can't beat em join em.". They've been trying to stop this for years ever since Ebay started with EQ1.
You missed my point here. The above was not aimed at the station exchange but at the new type of MMO currently under discussion and research. This new game model ONLY makes the games most desirable items available to those players that decide to buy them with real world cash. Those players that do not buy them can NEVER get them because they do not exist in the game world until purchased.
I was recently asked to take part in a market research exercise by a well known developer on this very subject and it goes without saying that my input to the idea was a negative one.
Originally posted by frankyz669 Furthermore, if you are one of those that got duped - I have many ways to recuperate that hard earned cash you spent on nothing. 1. Swamp land in Florida 2. A pyramid scheme - this one works baby 3. A new mutual fund that I created. It's called Franky's Beer Fund. Don't be a sucka! Don't buy nothing! Here's an idea! Just play the game stoopid! It's more fun.
lol let's see
1. not a buyer in florida only a renter with the dream of moving on very soon
2. Did this for a telecom service in the 90's and double my 60 dollar investment back..... after about 100 hours of work ... wait cancel that cause I ran my phone bill to a couple hundred making long distance calls to get new marketers.
3. Sorry byob
I want to be part of the cyber mafia like the kingpin ige =/
This is a hotly debated issue, but i still belive it ruins the game.
If someone works SOOOO damned hard to get an item that is extremely hard to get without any gold selling, he gets his moment to shine. Then someone swoops in and buys 15 of those items with real world cash. I think item selling RUINS the economy, causing inflation and making items in game SOOOO overpriced that only gold sellers/buyers can get anywhere in game. I think the right way to do this is the way that Roma Victor is expirimenting with, selling in game money gagued on the ingame economy, and not selling too much it causes much inflation, but not too little that they are left with no money.
Well it is just my opinion, cause that is what made me quit WoW when i finally got the LAST PART of my beaststalkers set just to have a SHAMAN in my guild buy the entire set on IGE.
What is worse is Shamans cant use that set. He got it cause he "Wanted to". By the way it took me 2 months of 2-3 raids a day to get it.
Originally posted by Jade6 The most vocal opponents of the sale of in-game items are always those who use their items to extend their penis. If your enjoyment really came from personal achievement, instead of showing off with your items, you wouldn't give a damn where and how others got their items. An attempt to hide one's true, selfish loser-guy motives within a disguise of moral outrage is pathetic. Why are so many guys who play these games so lame. Oh and by the way, the poll is screwed up because the people who are most likely to vote are the ones who hate the idea, usually for the above-mentioned reason. Those who are indifferent are not likely to vote at all.
This sounds pretty militant but I think that a person who has played from scratch and earned their character levels and items the hard way is more entitled to "show off" with their items than someone who just bought the character. As for the poll being screwed up because only people opposed to the idea would bother answeing the poll, did you vote?
The most vocal opponents of the sale of in-game items are always those who use their items to extend their penis. If your enjoyment really came from personal achievement, instead of showing off with your items, you wouldn't give a damn where and how others got their items. An attempt to hide one's true, selfish loser-guy motives within a disguise of moral outrage is pathetic. Why are so many guys who play these games so lame
LOL,poor little me doesn't even have a penis.......(i really DON'T want to know what you think i want to extend.... )
When i see you with an nice item and i ask you where i can find this (and maybe if you could help me to get it?) what you say???? 'Ohh,just go to station exchange or e-bay,there's a big summer sale of swords at the moment,three big swords of fire for the price of only two.' Sorry,that's bizarre and people who buy there stuff in such a way are poor and ill,they need a psychologist.
The best thing about such platforms is as Jon Wood has said the try to keep the 2 sides separated although i assume they don't want to 'play' with their own kind. They need an audience to show their newly bought things.
By the way, i have used some cheats in the past (yes,
In the end there is always going to be those for and those against this. I don't agree with it or do it myself but i can understand the reasons behind why some of these ppl do it. It only becomes a problem when those ppl that are buying the currency or item start to flood the market you other economic stratgies that mess with the basic player base.
But sure if some guy who can only play 1 hour a night or less want to buy something[not talking ige like] just so they can have the same level of enjoyment out of the game as a person that has more free time, sure let them, they have the same right to have fun as the rest in there short/causal game time, not everyone can be a power gamer.
In the end i think if a company wants to have a second interest in currency and items, they should and/or: - State it on launch of the service/game and provide servers/shards that are not part of the REAL currency market. - Offer server transfers off/too the one that are active in the system, but with condition of coming off [you can transfer off the server if you havent made a trade using the system etc... to stop ppl buying then moving off the server]
At least with these sort of ideas you then give players the option to play on a server where they know its a level playing field in terms of real currency, or to play on a server where they know that its posible to buy items/currency if they want and knowing that other players are able to do the same on that server.
As i said earlier though the causal vs powergamer debate will go on forever and will alway be a source of players either buying or selling items.
At the end of the day though on both this subjects players are going to have to agree to disagree.
ps: one thing i do think is positive about in-house cash sales/auctions is that it helps to kill off IGE type profit margins and exploitation. leading to a nice crash in the profitability in them operating with-in a game.
Anyway sorry for boring you all, and well everyone entitle to there own opinion just have to remember you don't have to agree with it.
I'm completely against it and if it ever gets a point where all MMO's offer this service than I will no longer play them.
MMO designers spend large amounts of time balancing thier games. They spend large amounts of time setting up areas and levels. Once you allow someone to buy a character that has passed all those levels, the work the developers have invested mean nothing.
Furthermore it sets up a system where the people who have money in real life have a HUGE advantage over those who don't. How fair is it that a kid who's parents are rich is able to buy the best equipment, while some kid who's parents are poor ends up having to work months to get the same thing.
In real life economics either gives you an advantage or disadvantage. That status should not be carried over into the virtual world.
Originally posted by sleepyguyftl I'm completely against it and if it ever gets a point where all MMO's offer this service than I will no longer play them. MMO designers spend large amounts of time balancing thier games. They spend large amounts of time setting up areas and levels. Once you allow someone to buy a character that has passed all those levels, the work the developers have invested mean nothing. Furthermore it sets up a system where the people who have money in real life have a HUGE advantage over those who don't. How fair is it that a kid who's parents are rich is able to buy the best equipment, while some kid who's parents are poor ends up having to work months to get the same thing.In real life economics either gives you an advantage or disadvantage. That status should not be carried over into the virtual world.
have to agree there, if it did get to that point where all companies allowed it to happen then there would be no point imo to play anymore. and single player games are getting a bit to short and easy so would be a sad day for gamers en masse i think
I think its a bunch of crap plain and simple but so as long as its on a seperate server then it fine by me i dont relaly care what losers pay for their enjoyment.In that amount of cash people pay just to make their retarded characters look cool id just simply spend that much to buy a new car and clothing for me spend cash on pixalated items basically your paying for something that technicully doesnt even exist and it almost un ethical at that.Give it time give it time and the IRS will start dabbling into this mmo stuff and it gonna turn into a real deal.But if all games turn into this crap then its back too the old mudding i go again.
A company that size should know that little kids playing the game will preassure their parents into giving them money on a "virtual" item that only works in that game. Making people pay for ingame content is a irresponsible act from people who only think of the finances not the game quality.
SOE is a company that has departed from the "good 'ol days" when games were made by people who were gamers first and profits were a needed side-product. Now many are driven by profit first, where hype and early perception is more important than playability.
Perhaps this is why their recent efforts have lacked that elusive and hard to define quality of "soul" to their games....beautiful graphics, good basic formula, ... but lacking something that a gamer making their products would never leave out...a feeling of pride in your charactor.
I believe the only reason for them setting up this real-life money for in-game items is to find one more way to bleed as much money as possible out of each of their customers as possible. Look at the creation of that premium server (Legends) they creted in EQ years ago, it was immediatly followed with extremely curtailed customer service (eliminated in-game GMs assigned to each server) on their normal servers to make the premium server more attractive. Soon the games will be programmed to make RL buying of in-game items an integral part of the entire game. Already elitist premium accounts are showing up in upcoming games as "tiered pricing structures".
Epic items and keys will be tradeable so they can make their percentage....soon they will leave out the player-seller in the equation and simply offer charactors and items and plat for direct sell by SOE, then make acquiring plat in-game even more difficult so they can sell more plat.
Already SOE has an expensive expansion every 6 months that is a higher priority than fixing existing content.
Games made by boardrooms rather than gamers. It's sad to see that it's working.
The real problem here is not the trading of in game items and/or currency, I see the problem more as a real life one.
This is like Nike or whatever company out there that produces in 3rd world countries to mass market here in the "west".
There are quite a lot of people in places like china that do this for a living, and by living I do not mean some extra cash to go to the movies, but to in fact to survive.
Allthough good that our MMO experiences makes it possible for some people to earn a livelyhood one could argue that this is just a continuation of our exploitment of said countries and people.
Furthermore, with so much at stake these operations constantly seeks ways to "shortcut", exploiting in any form is obviously just a good way to earn more money.
There is the added "farming" dilemma, if there is a good spot in a game to earn some fast cash these places are quickly occupied by groups set up to farm and sell, around the clock operations that will make it impossible or at least very hard for most common players to utilize that spot.
To sum it up, the selling and buying does nothing to an economy in these games, the aquiring of said resources though can utterly destroy it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've chosen this post to respond to pretty much randomly, but I think this echos what a lot of the "con" people are saying, so I will use this as the basis for my counter points, knowing that it can be applied to MANY of the posts in this thread:
Originally posted by Vertis
I couldn't help feel anything other than complete disgust when SOE first announced their 'Exchange' concept and went live with it. I play MMOGs for their recreational value, an escape from the toils of the day. There is a certain sense of accomplishment in acquiring one's own gear and wealth in a microcosm that is distinctly removed from real life.
How do you derive your sense of accomplishment? Do you finish a big quest get your awesome sword and think "Yes I've done it" and feel good about your accomplishment, or is it, you take your new sword into a public place and people say to you "Wow neat sword", and only then do you feel you've accomplished something?
What I'm asking is do you need other people to verify for you that you've accomplished something? If you don't, then someone else that bought the sword off of ebay CANNOT diminish that feeling of accomplishment. It doesn't matter what anyone else does in the game. You've done it, you know you've done it, and that's all that matters.
If you do need other people to tell you you've acomplished something, then yes ebaying will effect this feeling.
I find the practice of buying in-game items for real life currency not only disheartening, but game-breaking in many regards.
I find this to be a totally false statement. No one can name an MMO that has shut down because of this. This has been happening since the dawn of MMO's and EQ has been around what almost 6 years.
I'm a firm believer that a player should only be entitled to monies and equipment that they have earned through in-game efforts, whether adventuring or in honest trade. Being able to purchase items and wealth by means external to a game cheapens the experience immensely.
In your opening paragraph you said that you play games for fun, why does the way someone else play effect your enjoyment. It only cheapens the experience if you let it. If you let yourself feel depressed about, yeah I fought hard for this sword, and he just bought it. If you let his actions make you feel worse about what you've accomplished, well that's your own fault.
Encouraging farming
Out of all this, this is the one valid argument. Farming is wrong, but it is wrong only because it effects other people.
and selling off characters wholesale diminishes a game over many facets.
In your opinion and only because you let it.
The vast majority of these issues have been discussed ad nauseum in many different forums over the years. I find it unfortunate that SOE opted to line their pockets instead of stepping down even harder on the necks of 'players' who participate in such activities.
And what has this accomplished for Blizzard and WoW? Have they stopped the practice? Nope. What has SOE done with the money they've earned? You can play 4 (soon to be 5 with Matrix Online) for $21 a month. Name another company you can do that with.
I placed players in quotes in the previous sentence because I don't feel that those who engage in buying and selling of items out-of-game are worthy of the name. The sellers are scarcely interested in what makes a game a game and the buyers are those who lack talent and patience to achieve what they want on their own.
Just because people have less time, talent or patience than you, that makes them worse people? So I guess people that pay to have their oil changed rather than doing it themselves are also less of a person? Or the people that hire maids, or cooks, or pay to have their car washed? All these people are less of a person too?
Now like I said I'm not picking on Vertis, I just used his post as it echoes a lot of what others are saying.
Let me also clarify that I don't buy or sell virtual items. I'm a very casual player and I'll never have anything worth selling, and I'm way too cheap to by something virtually. I just don't see what someone else decides to buy in a game can effect me.
I bought an EVE-Online character on ebay after restarting the game. This allowed me to play without having to relearn basic skills that take months to train. It was worth it to me, and the guy selling it really needed the money, so everyone won.
I personally don't belive in it. I'm of the 'a game is meant to be played' catagory. I mean it's just not fair that a person can buy thier way into a game while everyone else has to work (or play) at it. For the most part most buying and selling items out of the game usually involves breaking some part of the EULA which includes the making of money quick schemes through botting or other exploits. It also affects the ingame economy.
Having said that, this point of view is coming from the fact that most games frown on it. In the case of a game like EQ2 where they do allow people to buy things outside the game I don't see why not. If you know that it's being done going into the game then you really can't complain.
Of course I'd never play a game like that. I stopped playing EQ2 when they made changes to the crafting system that took all the inter dependancy out of it making everything virtually worthless IMHO. It doesn't surprise me that they allowed people to buy stuff outside the game. They can get a piece of the action and make a game where everyone gets what they want and don't have to spend time getting it. I just hope not all games do this.
I think there alot to be said about considering the 'casual' player, but there are games that have addressed this like WoW and made it pretty easy for someone with little time to make progress.... and yet still people do buy and sell items for WoW. Using the term Casual is just excuse to not want to play like everyone else. There are people in real life that go about everything casual and there are people who work thier butts off to get what they want.... that's life.
Originally posted by Jodokai I've chosen this post to respond to pretty much randomly, but I think this echos what a lot of the "con" people are saying, so I will use this as the basis for my counter points, knowing that it can be applied to MANY of the posts in this thread:
I'm afraid I have to disagree with much of your rebuttal. I gain a sense of accomplishment by playing a game as it is intended to be played by the developers. Acquiring gear and items by completing quests, taking down NPCs, and tradeskills. I play based on the philosophy that if I didn't earn it, I don't deserve it. When I obtain a new item, I am not one of those who feels a compelling need to run around heavily populated areas showing off to produce a feeling of envy from my peers. The satisfaction comes from doing what was required to obtain an item. Someone buying the same items does diminish my feelings in this regard. They didn't earn it through in-game efforts.
I do find extensive trading of this nature to be game-breaking. It may be a false statement in your mind, but not in mine. I find it abhorrent. I don't play EQII for that very reason (primarily).
I do play MMOs for fun, competition is part of that. Items are part of the scorecard. If someone doesn't have time to devote to obtaining items via in-game play, then they should consider that perhaps they are engaged in the wrong genre of entertainment. If one spends 6 hours on a guild raid, busting your butt to gain an item, and someone else spends 1 minute buying the same item out of game ... yes I feel that cheapens the gaming experience. It most certainly is a personal sort of feeling, but then again, many seem to feel the exact same way. If you can't put in the time, you shouldn't be entitled nor able to obtain the same rewards. As I stated, crying the blues about not being able to spend enough time to accomplish something within a game simply means a person is trying to bend a genre they shouldn't be involved with in the first place to their will, circumventing the intended gameplay involved.
Of course, such activities also violate the majority of TOS agreements a player clicks on (therefore agreeing to abide by those rules) in order to play most MMOs. Someone willing to break such agreements in a cavalier manner for a game probably has the same lack of regard for other similar agreements in real life. If I don't like a TOS and its terms, I don't play. I do not enter a game, break the rules and then sit around whining about the injustice of it all later. The terms to play any MMO are usually quite clear in this regard. Don't like the terms, move on to one that meets your criteria for enjoyment.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with much of your rebuttal. I gain a sense of accomplishment by playing a game as it is intended to be played by the developers. Acquiring gear and items by completing quests, taking down NPCs, and tradeskills. I play based on the philosophy that if I didn't earn it, I don't deserve it. When I obtain a new item, I am not one of those who feels a compelling need to run around heavily populated areas showing off to produce a feeling of envy from my peers. The satisfaction comes from doing what was required to obtain an item. Someone buying the same items does diminish my feelings in this regard. They didn't earn it through in-game efforts. If this is truely where you get your satisfaction from, then ebaying shouldn't bother you, but we'll learn later in your post, this isn't where you get your satisfaction from. I do find extensive trading of this nature to be game-breaking. It may be a false statement in your mind, but not in mine. I find it abhorrent. I don't play EQII for that very reason (primarily). Please quote examples of the games it has broken? I can't name a single one that has closed up shop because of this, you may find it abhorrent, but why? Can you answer that question? I call it the Vanillia Ice Effect. Everyone hates them, it has become the socital norm to hate them, yet no one knows why we should hate them. There really are no valid reasons (except the farmers). I mean look at the poll, something like 55.7% said it was awful, yet 180k USD spent in one month. How many of that 55.7% said it was awful because that is what the MMO community expects people to say, and then participated in teh Station Exchange? I do play MMOs for fun, competition is part of that. Items are part of the scorecard. If someone doesn't have time to devote to obtaining items via in-game play, then they should consider that perhaps they are engaged in the wrong genre of entertainment. If one spends 6 hours on a guild raid, busting your butt to gain an item, and someone else spends 1 minute buying the same item out of game ... yes I feel that cheapens the gaming experience. It most certainly is a personal sort of feeling, but then again, many seem to feel the exact same way. If you can't put in the time, you shouldn't be entitled nor able to obtain the same rewards. As I stated, crying the blues about not being able to spend enough time to accomplish something within a game simply means a person is trying to bend a genre they shouldn't be involved with in the first place to their will, circumventing the intended gameplay involved. Now we see how your previous statement isn't exactly accurate. You do need others to verify your accomplishments. I'm not saying this is a bad thing or you're less of a person because of it (unlike what you do to others), but you like knowing that you have something someone else didn't, and this is where a lot of your problem with it stems from. You see I don't care if I was the last one on the server to get an item, if it was hard for me, and I finally do it, I'm happy about it. Which explains why I have less of a problem with buyers and sellers (also explains my casual attitude in leveling up) Of course, such activities also violate the majority of TOS agreements a player clicks on (therefore agreeing to abide by those rules) in order to play most MMOs. Someone willing to break such agreements in a cavalier manner for a game probably has the same lack of regard for other similar agreements in real life. If I don't like a TOS and its terms, I don't play. I do not enter a game, break the rules and then sit around whining about the injustice of it all later. The terms to play any MMO are usually quite clear in this regard. Don't like the terms, move on to one that meets your criteria for enjoyment. Do you drive a car? Have you ever gone over the speed limit or done a rolling stop at a stop sign? If you have then you must be a liar and a cheat. You haven't just violated some agreement, you've broken the law, you've done something that can be tried in a court. See how weak this arguement can be?
What is really important to this whole discussion is WHY you feel it is so awful. I mean if it is all about the compitition, then maybe you're taking the game too seriously. I mean if I buy a Super Sword of Slaying off ebay, how does that effect you at all? Unless you take the time to actively search out this sort of thing, you would probably never know.
All too often the real reason people hate it is because they've been trained to. Someone somewhere said it was "evil" and it just sort of caught on. There really are no valid reasons against it, it's just not cool to say you do it or advocate it.
Comments
I think it ruins the game. Games are meant to be PLAYED.
I won't support SOE's attempt to milk every nickel out of it's memberbase. I believe it's just plain wrong to sanction the selling of in game items for real world money.
First they charge you for "Adventure Packs" that companies like NCSOFT have given for FREE in City of Heroes and Blizzard did in WoW. Then they charge you to view your charactors stats on their webpage(.99 Cents per month). The list goes on and on. I'm just amazed people actually pay for it and stand for it. There are many other gaming companies that focus on the players having FUN and understand the concept.
StationExchangeSucks.com
It's always something...
The most vocal opponents of the sale of in-game items are always those who use their items to extend their penis. If your enjoyment really came from personal achievement, instead of showing off with your items, you wouldn't give a damn where and how others got their items. An attempt to hide one's true, selfish loser-guy motives within a disguise of moral outrage is pathetic. Why are so many guys who play these games so lame.
Oh and by the way, the poll is screwed up because the people who are most likely to vote are the ones who hate the idea, usually for the above-mentioned reason. Those who are indifferent are not likely to vote at all.
I think if this poll was taken 2 years ago it would be about 90% of the people saying it ruins games.. But like SoE's "if you can't beat them, join them approach" (more like for SoE "we want all your economy" approach) Anyway times are changing more people playing long hours and I think many people are looking to be compensated for their time.
I know in WoW there was a lot of talk about China farmers ruining the game. imo if I was living off 30 cents a day and some over anxious gamer was willing to pay me a few hundred american dollars for some piece of fantasy crap then i'm gonna milk the market dry.
the worlds are virtual but all these worlds live in the real world. The virtual economies are a part of the games world but again in the big picture that world lives in the real world and if it caters to masses of people, has an economy, then that economy is part of the real world and will have value within the real worlds economy.
Like it or not It's been proven over and over again. that virtual economies are part of the real world which puts it inline with the worlds economies.
What does "ebaying game coin" do to the game world? It jacks prices up but in turn also adds higher value to those items players won in the game. So you play the game with both a higher seller and buyer market.
One may say "the new player won't be able to afford goods because the prices are too high" I been playing game enocomies for a long time and it's not that hard to make some coin out of nothing.. You find a few low level items that sell, nickel and dime it until you can afford to buy and sell more valueable items. In most games there is no need to pay rl cash for coins.
WoW as an experiment I took a level 3 rogue and made over 100 gold in less than 5 hours. LEVEL 3!! Took a few minutes a day for about 3 weeks to accomplished. I started with 3 silver from the newbie area, went to IF and noticed a stack of linen cloth on sale for under 3 silver that was just about to expire, placed the bid a few minutes later got the item, put it in the AH for 45silver, sold, the next day but several stacks of light leather sold it, did the same the next day within 3 or 4 days I was up to 10 gold for about 30 minutes of game play. the following week I turn it into about 30 to 40 gold gold, then went to 100 gold shortly after that.
EQ2 at the lowbie end spells sell, doing quite well making gold in the game after a few days of playing the game for the first time.
people buy accounts, there are several types of account buyers,
those that are noobs that haven't a clue what they are doing but want to be with the big boys. You can usually pick these guys off fast and know not to waste time grouping with them.
Good players that are bored and want to try a new class without losing time doing the high end content they enjoy to play. These guys are usually trading within their own guilds or high end friends.. kinda like boys trading baseball cards. More times then not the guilds and their inner circle know about the trade or account purchase.
others can be Farmers, hackers, etc...
I think RL sales of ingame items or accounts should be allowed if not it just creates a blackmarket. Blackmarket = a greater chance to be ripped off. The exchange on SoE gives the player the opportunity for a fair purchase. ( i think.. I'm not on an SoE exchange server)
Anyway take your time before buying game items for RL $$ cause in the end you may just find it a waste of cash when you upgrade to your sexy no drop items that most mmo's have waiting for you.
Also if you plan on buying a high end account, I suggest you have at least already level a toon to the high end and have some end game experience before making that purchase for a high end toon, because the high end players will notice a lack of skill and many will avoid playing with you.. many high end guilds, players, servers will go as far as blacklisting you.
cheers
Dray
Buying cash ingame or toons for real cash is foolish. These games are suppose to be fun. If its not fun to level or gain money why the heck do we play? SOE is letting people do this, because their game is boring! DAoC lets this slide, because their pve is boring! The people who buy this stuff are being duped by none other than the people the pay to play. Any game where its considered "ok" to buy money, aka, "plat", or toons is a game that many find boring. I blame the content of the game, and the gullible souls out there that play boring games.
It all comes down to community as it should in MMORPGS. If you find yourself on a server or game that seems to be chock full of bots, farming, levelling treadmill, groups that infuriate you because they wish to focus on high end gear, etc. then you are probably ona server where virtual currency is being dealt.
These communities are more competitive, less helpful and less enjoyable for pure gamers. However, to deny that aspect of a market is not going to do anyone good. Enter a server for virtual exchange.
Sony execs are not fools. They have shown us proof is in the pudding. It is profitable for such a server to exist. The question is - do the other servers have happier players now? Do "regular" servers have low populations? (I just saw an ad for 7 day free trial for EQ2 listed on this site, is this a sign of player discontent on the other servers? Are they leaving the game or moving to the Exchange Server?) If EQ2 net income is dropping because regular monthly subscribers are falling, The SOE Exchange will be short lived. If net revenue is increasing despite low regular server populations, well then, what shall we expect?
As a player who has played numerous of these MMORPGS, I have seen both sides of the issue. I have never bought virtual currency or items. I simply think its not worth my hard earned funds. I have sold an account or two because I could no longer play the game due to work/family commitments.
I can see virtual commerce a decimating community if gamers do not expect it. Remember all those times someone asked you for a buff? Some spare coinage? Help in finishing a mission? What if you knew that player asking was asking for your help not to improve his/her gaming experience but to get a leg up for a faster sell? If gamers get skeptical enough, the community will go down the toliet because no one will trust anyone. "Why should I help you make money?"
The SOE Exchange server at least lets players know what they are getting into. Everyone wins.
Dray
TBH, I have no problem with it whatsoever. The players who do it are easily distinguishable from real players. I just don't group with them as they always rack up your XP debt with their lack of game savvy. I had some LvL 48 Warlock ask me this question the other night, "What is the maximum Group size in EQ 2". I replied that a level 48 Warlock could not possibly not know the answer to that question. He fed me some stupid excuse about how he never groups and thats why he doesn't know.
Now we all know this guy is an E-bayer, and it's all good. I simply put him on ignore and went about my business. If your kick is to miss the whole point of the game and show up to wave your massive E-penis then more power to you. Personally I think you are only hurting yourself. These games are all about working your way up while learning the game's systems, questing, meeting new people and exploring. What fun is the game if you remove that?
S
I am under the assumption that one buys and subscribes to a 'game' to PLAY it.
If you buy virtual game items and virtual gold with real $$ - you are not 'playing' the game.
I am a professional as well. I am getting married next summer. I have tons of friends and families and I PLAY these games.
I am way behind the geeks with no life that pharm and grief and all that bs. I don't care, because I have fun PLAYING the game.
I've never paid a US dollar for a stinking piece of VIRTUAL property. And if you are one of the suckers that have, then let me tell you this: You paid something for NOTHING! You got duped. And you have NOTHING to show for the cash that you paid.
Furthermore, if you are one of those that got duped - I have many ways to recuperate that hard earned cash you spent on nothing.
1. Swamp land in Florida
2. A pyramid scheme - this one works baby
3. A new mutual fund that I created. It's called Franky's Beer Fund.
Don't be a sucka! Don't buy nothing!
Here's an idea!
Just play the game stoopid! It's more fun.
"I have live my life by these nine simple words: It sounded like a good idea at the time."
--Livingston Taylor
lol let's see
1. not a buyer in florida only a renter with the dream of moving on very soon
2. Did this for a telecom service in the 90's and double my 60 dollar investment back..... after about 100 hours of work ... wait cancel that cause I ran my phone bill to a couple hundred making long distance calls to get new marketers.
3. Sorry byob
I want to be part of the cyber mafia like the kingpin ige =/
Dray
This is a hotly debated issue, but i still belive it ruins the game.
If someone works SOOOO damned hard to get an item that is extremely hard to get without any gold selling, he gets his moment to shine. Then someone swoops in and buys 15 of those items with real world cash. I think item selling RUINS the economy, causing inflation and making items in game SOOOO overpriced that only gold sellers/buyers can get anywhere in game. I think the right way to do this is the way that Roma Victor is expirimenting with, selling in game money gagued on the ingame economy, and not selling too much it causes much inflation, but not too little that they are left with no money.
Well it is just my opinion, cause that is what made me quit WoW when i finally got the LAST PART of my beaststalkers set just to have a SHAMAN in my guild buy the entire set on IGE.
What is worse is Shamans cant use that set. He got it cause he "Wanted to". By the way it took me 2 months of 2-3 raids a day to get it.
Im not anti social, im just pro solitude!
This sounds pretty militant but I think that a person who has played from scratch and earned their character levels and items the hard way is more entitled to "show off" with their items than someone who just bought the character. As for the poll being screwed up because only people opposed to the idea would bother answeing the poll, did you vote?
Originally posted by Jade6
The most vocal opponents of the sale of in-game items are always those who use their items to extend their penis. If your enjoyment really came from personal achievement, instead of showing off with your items, you wouldn't give a damn where and how others got their items. An attempt to hide one's true, selfish loser-guy motives within a disguise of moral outrage is pathetic. Why are so many guys who play these games so lame
LOL,poor little me doesn't even have a penis.......(i really DON'T want to know what you think i want to extend....
)
When i see you with an nice item and i ask you where i can find this (and maybe if you could help me to get it?) what you say???? 'Ohh,just go to station exchange or e-bay,there's a big summer sale of swords at the moment,three big swords of fire for the price of only two.' Sorry,that's bizarre and people who buy there stuff in such a way are poor and ill,they need a psychologist.
The best thing about such platforms is as Jon Wood has said the try to keep the 2 sides separated although i assume they don't want to 'play' with their own kind. They need an audience to show their newly bought things.
By the way, i have used some cheats in the past (yes,
In the end there is always going to be those for and those against this. I don't agree with it or do it myself but i can understand the reasons behind why some of these ppl do it. It only becomes a problem when those ppl that are buying the currency or item start to flood the market you other economic stratgies that mess with the basic player base.
But sure if some guy who can only play 1 hour a night or less want to buy something[not talking ige like] just so they can have the same level of enjoyment out of the game as a person that has more free time, sure let them, they have the same right to have fun as the rest in there short/causal game time, not everyone can be a power gamer.
In the end i think if a company wants to have a second interest in currency and items, they should and/or:
- State it on launch of the service/game and provide servers/shards that are not part of the REAL currency market.
- Offer server transfers off/too the one that are active in the system, but with condition of coming off [you can transfer off the server if you havent made a trade using the system etc... to stop ppl buying then moving off the server]
At least with these sort of ideas you then give players the option to play on a server where they know its a level playing field in terms of real currency, or to play on a server where they know that its posible to buy items/currency if they want and knowing that other players are able to do the same on that server.
As i said earlier though the causal vs powergamer debate will go on forever and will alway be a source of players either buying or selling items.
At the end of the day though on both this subjects players are going to have to agree to disagree.
ps: one thing i do think is positive about in-house cash sales/auctions is that it helps to kill off IGE type profit margins and exploitation. leading to a nice crash in the profitability in them operating with-in a game.
Anyway sorry for boring you all, and well everyone entitle to there own opinion just have to remember you don't have to agree with it.
I'm completely against it and if it ever gets a point where all MMO's offer this service than I will no longer play them.
MMO designers spend large amounts of time balancing thier games. They spend large amounts of time setting up areas and levels. Once you allow someone to buy a character that has passed all those levels, the work the developers have invested mean nothing.
Furthermore it sets up a system where the people who have money in real life have a HUGE advantage over those who don't. How fair is it that a kid who's parents are rich is able to buy the best equipment, while some kid who's parents are poor ends up having to work months to get the same thing.
In real life economics either gives you an advantage or disadvantage. That status should not be carried over into the virtual world.
have to agree there, if it did get to that point where all companies allowed it to happen then there would be no point imo to play anymore. and single player games are getting a bit to short and easy so would be a sad day for gamers en masse i think
I think its a bunch of crap plain and simple but so as long as its on a seperate server then it fine by me i dont relaly care what losers pay for their enjoyment.In that amount of cash people pay just to make their retarded characters look cool id just simply spend that much to buy a new car and clothing for me spend cash on pixalated items basically your paying for something that technicully doesnt even exist and it almost un ethical at that.Give it time give it time and the IRS will start dabbling into this mmo stuff and it gonna turn into a real deal.But if all games turn into this crap then its back too the old mudding i go again.
A company that size should know that little kids playing the game will preassure their parents into giving them money on a "virtual" item that only works in that game.
Making people pay for ingame content is a irresponsible act from people who only think of the finances not the game quality.
Perhaps this is why their recent efforts have lacked that elusive and hard to define quality of "soul" to their games....beautiful graphics, good basic formula, ... but lacking something that a gamer making their products would never leave out...a feeling of pride in your charactor.
I believe the only reason for them setting up this real-life money for in-game items is to find one more way to bleed as much money as possible out of each of their customers as possible. Look at the creation of that premium server (Legends) they creted in EQ years ago, it was immediatly followed with extremely curtailed customer service (eliminated in-game GMs assigned to each server) on their normal servers to make the premium server more attractive. Soon the games will be programmed to make RL buying of in-game items an integral part of the entire game. Already elitist premium accounts are showing up in upcoming games as "tiered pricing structures".
Epic items and keys will be tradeable so they can make their percentage....soon they will leave out the player-seller in the equation and simply offer charactors and items and plat for direct sell by SOE, then make acquiring plat in-game even more difficult so they can sell more plat.
Already SOE has an expensive expansion every 6 months that is a higher priority than fixing existing content.
Games made by boardrooms rather than gamers. It's sad to see that it's working.
The real problem here is not the trading of in game items and/or currency, I see the problem more as a real life one.
This is like Nike or whatever company out there that produces in 3rd world countries to mass market here in the "west".
There are quite a lot of people in places like china that do this for a living, and by living I do not mean some extra cash to go to the movies, but to in fact to survive.
Allthough good that our MMO experiences makes it possible for some people to earn a livelyhood one could argue that this is just a continuation of our exploitment of said countries and people.
Furthermore, with so much at stake these operations constantly seeks ways to "shortcut", exploiting in any form is obviously just a good way to earn more money.
There is the added "farming" dilemma, if there is a good spot in a game to earn some fast cash these places are quickly occupied by groups set up to farm and sell, around the clock operations that will make it impossible or at least very hard for most common players to utilize that spot.
To sum it up, the selling and buying does nothing to an economy in these games, the aquiring of said resources though can utterly destroy it.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Now like I said I'm not picking on Vertis, I just used his post as it echoes a lot of what others are saying.
Let me also clarify that I don't buy or sell virtual items. I'm a very casual player and I'll never have anything worth selling, and I'm way too cheap to by something virtually. I just don't see what someone else decides to buy in a game can effect me.
I personally don't belive in it. I'm of the 'a game is meant to be played' catagory. I mean it's just not fair that a person can buy thier way into a game while everyone else has to work (or play) at it. For the most part most buying and selling items out of the game usually involves breaking some part of the EULA which includes the making of money quick schemes through botting or other exploits. It also affects the ingame economy.
Having said that, this point of view is coming from the fact that most games frown on it. In the case of a game like EQ2 where they do allow people to buy things outside the game I don't see why not. If you know that it's being done going into the game then you really can't complain.
Of course I'd never play a game like that. I stopped playing EQ2 when they made changes to the crafting system that took all the inter dependancy out of it making everything virtually worthless IMHO. It doesn't surprise me that they allowed people to buy stuff outside the game. They can get a piece of the action and make a game where everyone gets what they want and don't have to spend time getting it. I just hope not all games do this.
I think there alot to be said about considering the 'casual' player, but there are games that have addressed this like WoW and made it pretty easy for someone with little time to make progress.... and yet still people do buy and sell items for WoW. Using the term Casual is just excuse to not want to play like everyone else. There are people in real life that go about everything casual and there are people who work thier butts off to get what they want.... that's life.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with much of your rebuttal. I gain a sense of accomplishment by playing a game as it is intended to be played by the developers. Acquiring gear and items by completing quests, taking down NPCs, and tradeskills. I play based on the philosophy that if I didn't earn it, I don't deserve it. When I obtain a new item, I am not one of those who feels a compelling need to run around heavily populated areas showing off to produce a feeling of envy from my peers. The satisfaction comes from doing what was required to obtain an item. Someone buying the same items does diminish my feelings in this regard. They didn't earn it through in-game efforts.
I do find extensive trading of this nature to be game-breaking. It may be a false statement in your mind, but not in mine. I find it abhorrent. I don't play EQII for that very reason (primarily).
I do play MMOs for fun, competition is part of that. Items are part of the scorecard. If someone doesn't have time to devote to obtaining items via in-game play, then they should consider that perhaps they are engaged in the wrong genre of entertainment. If one spends 6 hours on a guild raid, busting your butt to gain an item, and someone else spends 1 minute buying the same item out of game ... yes I feel that cheapens the gaming experience. It most certainly is a personal sort of feeling, but then again, many seem to feel the exact same way. If you can't put in the time, you shouldn't be entitled nor able to obtain the same rewards. As I stated, crying the blues about not being able to spend enough time to accomplish something within a game simply means a person is trying to bend a genre they shouldn't be involved with in the first place to their will, circumventing the intended gameplay involved.
Of course, such activities also violate the majority of TOS agreements a player clicks on (therefore agreeing to abide by those rules) in order to play most MMOs. Someone willing to break such agreements in a cavalier manner for a game probably has the same lack of regard for other similar agreements in real life. If I don't like a TOS and its terms, I don't play. I do not enter a game, break the rules and then sit around whining about the injustice of it all later. The terms to play any MMO are usually quite clear in this regard. Don't like the terms, move on to one that meets your criteria for enjoyment.
What is really important to this whole discussion is WHY you feel it is so awful. I mean if it is all about the compitition, then maybe you're taking the game too seriously. I mean if I buy a Super Sword of Slaying off ebay, how does that effect you at all? Unless you take the time to actively search out this sort of thing, you would probably never know.
All too often the real reason people hate it is because they've been trained to. Someone somewhere said it was "evil" and it just sort of caught on. There really are no valid reasons against it, it's just not cool to say you do it or advocate it.