Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Planning to Add Crafting and Gathering to Pre-Alpha This Weekend | MMOR

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Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Planning to Add Crafting and Gathering to Pre-Alpha This Weekend | MMORPG.com

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen has releases its latest newsletter, with a review of February, progress, a feature on the game's environmental art, and what's to come.

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Mensur

Vicarious Visions :-P small typo there friend. Its great to se Pantheon moving forward steady.

Mendel

I think a large reason for the lengthy development costs is clearly displayed in that message.  It implies that there is only a single 3D Environmental artist working on the project.  If they are so short-staffed, at least try to hide it by saying "the Lead 3D Environmental Artist" or "Environmental Art Director".  Meaningless titles are cheap.

Nanfoodle

Mendel said:

I think a large reason for the lengthy development costs is clearly displayed in that message.  It implies that there is only a single 3D Environmental artist working on the project.  If they are so short-staffed, at least try to hide it by saying "the Lead 3D Environmental Artist" or "Environmental Art Director".  Meaningless titles are cheap.

I think the entire team is about 10 people working on this game. Maybe 12?

goldwheat

" ... The team is also noting that they made major progress on the “overhaul of our persistence server and architecture”, Which should help with stability and performance. One of the issues they discovered had to do with client crashes and character data rollback. ... "

Holy crap! 10 years in, and they're JUST NOW overhauling their persistence server and architecture because client crashes are causing character data rollbacks?

Good lord, what did you DO for 10 years if not test and fix that? RED FLAG! Alert: RED FLAG!
Did they not have a reliable persistence server for the past 9 years? If not, what did they have? :O
How is a client crash rolling back database transactions within the persistence database?

Kumapon

I totally see some of you playing this with shaky hands in a retirement home. Half of your raid wiped standing on red circle because you forgot your reading glasses.

"We are waiting on Mike, he forgot to take his pill"
"Bob went to the toilet the 2nd time in 5mins"

It's gonna be hilarious.

Kyleran

Kumapon said:

I totally see some of you playing this with shaky hands in a retirement home. Half of your raid wiped standing on red circle because you forgot your reading glasses.

"We are waiting on Mike, he forgot to take his pill"
"Bob went to the toilet the 2nd time in 5mins"

It's gonna be hilarious.

And Kyleran is asleep in the recliner, again.  No healz today folks...

Wait, that happens now... 

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Scot

Kyleran said:

Kumapon said:

I totally see some of you playing this with shaky hands in a retirement home. Half of your raid wiped standing on red circle because you forgot your reading glasses.

"We are waiting on Mike, he forgot to take his pill"
"Bob went to the toilet the 2nd time in 5mins"

It's gonna be hilarious.

And Kyleran is asleep in the recliner, again.  No healz today folks...

Wait, that happens now... 

Scot is on his way back from having his check up, pumping that Zimmer frame to get back to his PC and and log on!

Nilden

Kumapon said:

I totally see some of you playing this with shaky hands in a retirement home. Half of your raid wiped standing on red circle because you forgot your reading glasses.

"We are waiting on Mike, he forgot to take his pill"
"Bob went to the toilet the 2nd time in 5mins"

It's gonna be hilarious.

Sovrath

Robokapp said:

this game will be obsolete by the time it hits Beta...

Nah.

"if" it hits beta it will be patronized by a good many people the first few weeks. It very much "is what it is" and there aren't going to be many games like it.

After that, the people who tried it out for curiosity's sake will leave and what  will be left are the people who originally wanted that game. They will stay around "if" the developers can make enough content and a reason to stick around.

Nanfoodle

Sovrath said:

Robokapp said:

this game will be obsolete by the time it hits Beta...

Nah.

"if" it hits beta it will be patronized by a good many people the first few weeks. It very much "is what it is" and there aren't going to be many games like it.

After that, the people who tried it out for curiosity's sake will leave and what  will be left are the people who originally wanted that game. They will stay around "if" the developers can make enough content and a reason to stick around.

If I remember off the top of my head, a long time ago, VR said 25'000 players would sustain them but they hope for 100-200k. I would not be shocked if they got 50k subs. I know I would be one of them for at least a time. 

Brainy

Nanfoodle said:

Sovrath said:

Robokapp said:

this game will be obsolete by the time it hits Beta...

Nah.

"if" it hits beta it will be patronized by a good many people the first few weeks. It very much "is what it is" and there aren't going to be many games like it.

After that, the people who tried it out for curiosity's sake will leave and what  will be left are the people who originally wanted that game. They will stay around "if" the developers can make enough content and a reason to stick around.

If I remember off the top of my head, a long time ago, VR said 25'000 players would sustain them but they hope for 100-200k. I would not be shocked if they got 50k subs. I know I would be one of them for at least a time. 

Would you be shocked if they only got 10k subs at launch?

Eldrach

goldwheat said:

" ... The team is also noting that they made major progress on the “overhaul of our persistence server and architecture”, Which should help with stability and performance. One of the issues they discovered had to do with client crashes and character data rollback. ... "

Holy crap! 10 years in, and they're JUST NOW overhauling their persistence server and architecture because client crashes are causing character data rollbacks?

Good lord, what did you DO for 10 years if not test and fix that? RED FLAG! Alert: RED FLAG!
Did they not have a reliable persistence server for the past 9 years? If not, what did they have? :O
How is a client crash rolling back database transactions within the persistence database?

If you followed the development - you’d know that halfway through the development, they admitted to choosing the wrong game engine as it simply wasn’t able to handle the large environments they’d created. They basically had to recreate the entire game and re-do all the server architecture

Theocritus

Robokapp said:

this game will be obsolete by the time it hits Beta...

if not already.....

Brainy

Eldrach said:

goldwheat said:

" ... The team is also noting that they made major progress on the “overhaul of our persistence server and architecture”, Which should help with stability and performance. One of the issues they discovered had to do with client crashes and character data rollback. ... "

Holy crap! 10 years in, and they're JUST NOW overhauling their persistence server and architecture because client crashes are causing character data rollbacks?

Good lord, what did you DO for 10 years if not test and fix that? RED FLAG! Alert: RED FLAG!
Did they not have a reliable persistence server for the past 9 years? If not, what did they have? :O
How is a client crash rolling back database transactions within the persistence database?

If you followed the development - you’d know that halfway through the development, they admitted to choosing the wrong game engine as it simply wasn’t able to handle the large environments they’d created. They basically had to recreate the entire game and re-do all the server architecture

Sounds like either incompetence or excuses for not being able to make a reasonable game in a reasonable time frame.  When management continuously makes decisions this bad over and over again, why would people think they would suddenly make good choices and deliver a good product.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

Eldrach said:

goldwheat said:

" ... The team is also noting that they made major progress on the “overhaul of our persistence server and architecture”, Which should help with stability and performance. One of the issues they discovered had to do with client crashes and character data rollback. ... "

Holy crap! 10 years in, and they're JUST NOW overhauling their persistence server and architecture because client crashes are causing character data rollbacks?

Good lord, what did you DO for 10 years if not test and fix that? RED FLAG! Alert: RED FLAG!
Did they not have a reliable persistence server for the past 9 years? If not, what did they have? :O
How is a client crash rolling back database transactions within the persistence database?

If you followed the development - you’d know that halfway through the development, they admitted to choosing the wrong game engine as it simply wasn’t able to handle the large environments they’d created. They basically had to recreate the entire game and re-do all the server architecture

Sounds like either incompetence or excuses for not being able to make a reasonable game in a reasonable time frame.  When management continuously makes decisions this bad over and over again, why would people think they would suddenly make good choices and deliver a good product.

He's correct.

I've said this many tines. They started and stopped several times, they had to remake their team twice (if memory serves) and they "just" made it so their npc's had the same skeleton so they didnt' have to change each armor piece to suit (no pun intended) every character/monster.

I would say lack of experience, some bad choices, etc.

It's been a rough development which is why I think they will come up short. We'll see.

Mendel

Sovrath said:

Brainy said:

Eldrach said:

If you followed the development - you’d know that halfway through the development, they admitted to choosing the wrong game engine as it simply wasn’t able to handle the large environments they’d created. They basically had to recreate the entire game and re-do all the server architecture

Sounds like either incompetence or excuses for not being able to make a reasonable game in a reasonable time frame.  When management continuously makes decisions this bad over and over again, why would people think they would suddenly make good choices and deliver a good product.

He's correct.

I've said this many tines. They started and stopped several times, they had to remake their team twice (if memory serves) and they "just" made it so their npc's had the same skeleton so they didnt' have to change each armor piece to suit (no pun intended) every character/monster.

I would say lack of experience, some bad choices, etc.

It's been a rough development which is why I think they will come up short. We'll see.

Correct only in that he (@Eldrach) has stated what happened.  That doesn't excuse these actions (restarting the game, rebuilding architecture, restaffing, reworking models to a standard size, etc.)  These are nothing but excuses that competent management *should* have avoided.  The ultimate result of these actions is that this game has been delayed for too long.

I will agree that this project is probably going to come up short, both of claimed promises and customer expectations.

Kyleran

Sovrath said:

Brainy said:

Eldrach said:

goldwheat said:

" ... The team is also noting that they made major progress on the “overhaul of our persistence server and architecture”, Which should help with stability and performance. One of the issues they discovered had to do with client crashes and character data rollback. ... "

Holy crap! 10 years in, and they're JUST NOW overhauling their persistence server and architecture because client crashes are causing character data rollbacks?

Good lord, what did you DO for 10 years if not test and fix that? RED FLAG! Alert: RED FLAG!
Did they not have a reliable persistence server for the past 9 years? If not, what did they have? :O
How is a client crash rolling back database transactions within the persistence database?

If you followed the development - you’d know that halfway through the development, they admitted to choosing the wrong game engine as it simply wasn’t able to handle the large environments they’d created. They basically had to recreate the entire game and re-do all the server architecture

Sounds like either incompetence or excuses for not being able to make a reasonable game in a reasonable time frame.  When management continuously makes decisions this bad over and over again, why would people think they would suddenly make good choices and deliver a good product.

He's correct.

I've said this many tines. They started and stopped several times, they had to remake their team twice (if memory serves) and they "just" made it so their npc's had the same skeleton so they didnt' have to change each armor piece to suit (no pun intended) every character/monster.

I would say lack of experience, some bad choices, etc.

It's been a rough development which is why I think they will come up short. We'll see.

In my opinion they originally were trying to complete enough of the game in order to entice some investors to buy in. 

Right before he passed (2018?) Brad published a series of state of the game blogs in Sep/Oct which claimed that if they "had to launch" in the near future they would have about 4 weeks of content ready to play.

From what they show here in 2023 I'm doubtful they were really that far along back then, but they've received a couple more rounds of investment so perhaps their plan worked as intended.

They admitted to hard coding much of the game in order to show off their progress including making people believe they had 10 zones completed or nearly so.

Bazgrim did a "famous" stream back then to prove these zones existed as stated, but clearly they didn't as after the last refactoring almost all zones reverted to graybox models.

Which is why I never believe anything these or other indie devs say in terms of how much "progress" they've made, at least not until NDA's come down and a wider audience besides $750 plus backers get their hands on it.

achesoma

Nanfoodle said:

Mendel said:

I think a large reason for the lengthy development costs is clearly displayed in that message.  It implies that there is only a single 3D Environmental artist working on the project.  If they are so short-staffed, at least try to hide it by saying "the Lead 3D Environmental Artist" or "Environmental Art Director".  Meaningless titles are cheap.

I think the entire team is about 10 people working on this game. Maybe 12?

Just over 20 of actual developers. Which is still very small for this ambitious of a project.

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/team/

And yes, there is only one 3D environment artist.

Sovrath

Mendel said:

Sovrath said:

Brainy said:

Eldrach said:

If you followed the development - you’d know that halfway through the development, they admitted to choosing the wrong game engine as it simply wasn’t able to handle the large environments they’d created. They basically had to recreate the entire game and re-do all the server architecture

Sounds like either incompetence or excuses for not being able to make a reasonable game in a reasonable time frame.  When management continuously makes decisions this bad over and over again, why would people think they would suddenly make good choices and deliver a good product.

He's correct.

I've said this many tines. They started and stopped several times, they had to remake their team twice (if memory serves) and they "just" made it so their npc's had the same skeleton so they didnt' have to change each armor piece to suit (no pun intended) every character/monster.

I would say lack of experience, some bad choices, etc.

It's been a rough development which is why I think they will come up short. We'll see.

Correct only in that he (@Eldrach) has stated what happened.  That doesn't excuse these actions (restarting the game, rebuilding architecture, restaffing, reworking models to a standard size, etc.)  These are nothing but excuses that competent management *should* have avoided.  The ultimate result of these actions is that this game has been delayed for too long.

I will agree that this project is probably going to come up short, both of claimed promises and customer expectations.

I would just call them “reasons.”

 I think Kyleran has the right of it in that at some point they decided to make something to entice backers.

 I do think they’ve had a lot of inexperienced but passionate people working on it but without strong experienced managers it’s not enough.

achesoma

Sovrath said:

Mendel said:

Sovrath said:

Brainy said:

Eldrach said:

If you followed the development - you’d know that halfway through the development, they admitted to choosing the wrong game engine as it simply wasn’t able to handle the large environments they’d created. They basically had to recreate the entire game and re-do all the server architecture

Sounds like either incompetence or excuses for not being able to make a reasonable game in a reasonable time frame.  When management continuously makes decisions this bad over and over again, why would people think they would suddenly make good choices and deliver a good product.

He's correct.

I've said this many tines. They started and stopped several times, they had to remake their team twice (if memory serves) and they "just" made it so their npc's had the same skeleton so they didnt' have to change each armor piece to suit (no pun intended) every character/monster.

I would say lack of experience, some bad choices, etc.

It's been a rough development which is why I think they will come up short. We'll see.

Correct only in that he (@Eldrach) has stated what happened.  That doesn't excuse these actions (restarting the game, rebuilding architecture, restaffing, reworking models to a standard size, etc.)  These are nothing but excuses that competent management *should* have avoided.  The ultimate result of these actions is that this game has been delayed for too long.

I will agree that this project is probably going to come up short, both of claimed promises and customer expectations.

I would just call them “reasons.”

 I think Kyleran has the right of it in that at some point they decided to make something to entice backers.

 I do think they’ve had a lot of inexperienced but passionate people working on it but without strong experienced managers it’s not enough.

I can't help but think how things would have been different if Steve Clover was there from the beginning. He was the main workhorse behind EQ's success. But he's there now and that is a significant boon to the project.

achesoma

And for those interested there is a player made gameplay video from last weekends pre alpha session. It's still under NDA but they got permission to stream. It's completely unguided gameplay by testers. Expect more content creator streams in the near future.

Nanfoodle

Brainy said:

Nanfoodle said:

Sovrath said:

Robokapp said:

this game will be obsolete by the time it hits Beta...

Nah.

"if" it hits beta it will be patronized by a good many people the first few weeks. It very much "is what it is" and there aren't going to be many games like it.

After that, the people who tried it out for curiosity's sake will leave and what  will be left are the people who originally wanted that game. They will stay around "if" the developers can make enough content and a reason to stick around.

If I remember off the top of my head, a long time ago, VR said 25'000 players would sustain them but they hope for 100-200k. I would not be shocked if they got 50k subs. I know I would be one of them for at least a time. 

Would you be shocked if they only got 10k subs at launch?

Yes because they have somewhere around 5k backers at the VIP level. That does not include all the people like me to pledges $50 to $200.

Sovrath

achesoma said:

And for those interested there is a player made gameplay video from last weekends pre alpha session. It's still under NDA but they got permission to stream. It's completely unguided gameplay by testers. Expect more content creator streams in the near future.

I miss those types of groups and that type of game play.

I really hope they can pull it off. Eventually. Well, "we'll see."

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.