Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants.
WoW modernized mmorpgs. Anything older was a draft of what was needed. Unfortunately, for the last 12 years it had gone too far with it being DEVELOPERS FAULT.
We can't just blame the developers Delete, though it is the studios fault in the main. Studios became more and more run by executives vison not designers vision, as the industry started to become more and more profitable executives from other industries parachuted into gaming studios like the former CEO of EA. That guy had been the likes of VP to Haagen Dazs and a big chemical company, no previous experience of gaming, EA's current board has only one person on it with gaming experience. As gaming became the most profitable form of entertainment industry that process sped up. Developers don't have the say they used to, it is all about how a game will look to investors and what the quarterlies will be like.
We played our part too, if you have played a MMO since WoW came out you are part of the problem. We all are, but what were we going to do give up on MMORPG's because they were changing? So I put some of the blame on our shoulders, even though we had no idea that the changes we saw in in WoW were going to be taken this far.
Agree, I'll rephrase It's the companies management's fault, it jut seemed easer to say developers.
Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants.
WoW modernized mmorpgs. Anything older was a draft of what was needed. Unfortunately, for the last 12 years it had gone too far with it being DEVELOPERS FAULT.
We can't just blame the developers Delete, though it is the studios fault in the main. Studios became more and more run by executives vison not designers vision, as the industry started to become more and more profitable executives from other industries parachuted into gaming studios like the former CEO of EA. That guy had been the likes of VP to Haagen Dazs and a big chemical company, no previous experience of gaming, EA's current board has only one person on it with gaming experience. As gaming became the most profitable form of entertainment industry that process sped up. Developers don't have the say they used to, it is all about how a game will look to investors and what the quarterlies will be like.
We played our part too, if you have played a MMO since WoW came out you are part of the problem. We all are, but what were we going to do give up on MMORPG's because they were changing? So I put some of the blame on our shoulders, even though we had no idea that the changes we saw in in WoW were going to be taken this far.
Yep games used to be creative individual passion projects.
But when the money started flowing, a formula was created...
They became business projects.
I do think that it is mainly the business guys' fault the industry went down hill.
This is an industry where the player doesn't really know what is good for themself too.
They think they do, but they don't.
It is because:
-Humans are horrendously bad at examining their own psychology.
-We also tend to model novel ideas in our head, that very often don't turn out to work as intended in reality.
So it really is up to the designers of the systems (the devs) and the business (the money vampires) to balance these things out so it doesn't go down hill.
I do think it is the business guys who are the real problem because they made it become mainly just profit incentive, instead of creative/fun incentive. The devs don't have the creative freedom any longer. It is all regulated and fomulaic, you create what the money wants you to.
This pushes games down the route of more and more quality of life, trying to make it as accesible as possible, dumbing everything down, until it is a easy mode commercial mess of mini games and quick hit addictions like loot boxes.
The indie games are where the real ideas shine now. The issue with the genre of MMORPG's here is that indy devs don't usually have the time/money/expertise to create fully fledged MMORPG's. They are big big projects if you are following the general formula.
So I think that formula probably needs to be broken and we need more small scale indie MMORPG's with risk vs reward mechanics to make it fun (so people don't just point to all other MMORPG's and say "but it has no features compared to WoW!", they will just enjoy it for what it is).
Crowfall was perhaps a novel idea regarding PvP MMORPG's... just create a small battlegrounds MMORPG. The problem is, they didn't pull it off well at all because they tried using the same tired formula (similar generic combat system to most MMORPG's, etc.. It really felt like and was a generic MMORPG at its core) and they didn't tune the system to have a fun enough game loop at all.
MMORPG devs really are terrible at designing and tuning fun combat balance/systems... absolutely terrible!
People were hyped at the start though. I think they were onto something... they just didn't know how to pull it off and went down the wrong path imo.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants.
WoW modernized mmorpgs. Anything older was a draft of what was needed. Unfortunately, for the last 12 years it had gone too far with it being DEVELOPERS FAULT.
We can't just blame the developers Delete, though it is the studios fault in the main. Studios became more and more run by executives vison not designers vision, as the industry started to become more and more profitable executives from other industries parachuted into gaming studios like the former CEO of EA. That guy had been the likes of VP to Haagen Dazs and a big chemical company, no previous experience of gaming, EA's current board has only one person on it with gaming experience. As gaming became the most profitable form of entertainment industry that process sped up. Developers don't have the say they used to, it is all about how a game will look to investors and what the quarterlies will be like.
We played our part too, if you have played a MMO since WoW came out you are part of the problem. We all are, but what were we going to do give up on MMORPG's because they were changing? So I put some of the blame on our shoulders, even though we had no idea that the changes we saw in in WoW were going to be taken this far.
It 100% is the dev's fault. When people are talking devs they are saying the people with the creative control. Nobody is talking about some intern with no say. The vast majority of the executives of these studios come from the ranks of devs.
Even this CEO you are talking about, I doubt they even have any creative control at all. Likely they are just steering the funding and overall goals of the company.
It certainly is not the customers fault. My goodness, the genre is deing because people wont purchases this trash and the genre is dieing because they did purchase this trash, make up your mind already. Its a devs job to understand a profitable core customer group and make a product that group of customers will want. Nobody else has control other than the people developing it other than maybe a government regulator.
The entire reason MMO genre is in decline is because many customers have abandoned it, and have been giving the trash extremely poor feedback and rightly so. Stop blaming the customer geez.
Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants.
WoW modernized mmorpgs. Anything older was a draft of what was needed. Unfortunately, for the last 12 years it had gone too far with it being DEVELOPERS FAULT.
We can't just blame the developers Delete, though it is the studios fault in the main. Studios became more and more run by executives vison not designers vision, as the industry started to become more and more profitable executives from other industries parachuted into gaming studios like the former CEO of EA. That guy had been the likes of VP to Haagen Dazs and a big chemical company, no previous experience of gaming, EA's current board has only one person on it with gaming experience. As gaming became the most profitable form of entertainment industry that process sped up. Developers don't have the say they used to, it is all about how a game will look to investors and what the quarterlies will be like.
We played our part too, if you have played a MMO since WoW came out you are part of the problem. We all are, but what were we going to do give up on MMORPG's because they were changing? So I put some of the blame on our shoulders, even though we had no idea that the changes we saw in in WoW were going to be taken this far.
"Slippery Slope" comes quickly to mind, eh?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants.
WoW modernized mmorpgs. Anything older was a draft of what was needed. Unfortunately, for the last 12 years it had gone too far with it being DEVELOPERS FAULT.
We can't just blame the developers Delete, though it is the studios fault in the main. Studios became more and more run by executives vison not designers vision, as the industry started to become more and more profitable executives from other industries parachuted into gaming studios like the former CEO of EA. That guy had been the likes of VP to Haagen Dazs and a big chemical company, no previous experience of gaming, EA's current board has only one person on it with gaming experience. As gaming became the most profitable form of entertainment industry that process sped up. Developers don't have the say they used to, it is all about how a game will look to investors and what the quarterlies will be like.
We played our part too, if you have played a MMO since WoW came out you are part of the problem. We all are, but what were we going to do give up on MMORPG's because they were changing? So I put some of the blame on our shoulders, even though we had no idea that the changes we saw in in WoW were going to be taken this far.
It 100% is the dev's fault. When people are talking devs they are saying the people with the creative control. Nobody is talking about some intern with no say. The vast majority of the executives of these studios come from the ranks of devs.
Even this CEO you are talking about, I doubt they even have any creative control at all. Likely they are just steering the funding and overall goals of the company.
It certainly is not the customers fault. My goodness, the genre is deing because people wont purchases this trash and the genre is dieing because they did purchase this trash, make up your mind already. Its a devs job to understand a profitable core customer group and make a product that group of customers will want. Nobody else has control other than the people developing it other than maybe a government regulator.
The entire reason MMO genre is in decline is because many customers have abandoned it, and have been giving the trash extremely poor feedback and rightly so. Stop blaming the customer geez.
The people paying the Devs have quite a bit of control on direction and systems implemented. Which analytics/data showing where players spend money dictates much of development .
Ironically it is the players who are quite culpable in the direction of the genre, the Investors and Devs just follow the money,being on both sides of this I understand the frustration, as a gamer I dislike the direction the genre has taken , as an investor in the genre since 04 , my portfolio makes me smile.
Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants.
WoW modernized mmorpgs. Anything older was a draft of what was needed. Unfortunately, for the last 12 years it had gone too far with it being DEVELOPERS FAULT.
We can't just blame the developers Delete, though it is the studios fault in the main. Studios became more and more run by executives vison not designers vision, as the industry started to become more and more profitable executives from other industries parachuted into gaming studios like the former CEO of EA. That guy had been the likes of VP to Haagen Dazs and a big chemical company, no previous experience of gaming, EA's current board has only one person on it with gaming experience. As gaming became the most profitable form of entertainment industry that process sped up. Developers don't have the say they used to, it is all about how a game will look to investors and what the quarterlies will be like.
We played our part too, if you have played a MMO since WoW came out you are part of the problem. We all are, but what were we going to do give up on MMORPG's because they were changing? So I put some of the blame on our shoulders, even though we had no idea that the changes we saw in in WoW were going to be taken this far.
It 100% is the dev's fault. When people are talking devs they are saying the people with the creative control. Nobody is talking about some intern with no say. The vast majority of the executives of these studios come from the ranks of devs.
Even this CEO you are talking about, I doubt they even have any creative control at all. Likely they are just steering the funding and overall goals of the company.
It certainly is not the customers fault. My goodness, the genre is deing because people wont purchases this trash and the genre is dieing because they did purchase this trash, make up your mind already. Its a devs job to understand a profitable core customer group and make a product that group of customers will want. Nobody else has control other than the people developing it other than maybe a government regulator.
The entire reason MMO genre is in decline is because many customers have abandoned it, and have been giving the trash extremely poor feedback and rightly so. Stop blaming the customer geez.
You are questioning the creative control that senior executives yield, Darkhawke has gone over some of that area. But I will give some more examples.
When John Riccitiello became CEO of EA he said "I want everybody on the creative team to be accountants, understanding what anything they want to create costs" and "I want our games to be so easy your mum could play them", the executive also drives the methods of revenue like live service which effects so much of what we play. More on John later.
More examples (from a post I did years ago):
Here Toby Ragaini (Turbine) talks about AC, it was a technical labour of love. Not a lot of talk about executives because back then designers and design came before corporate culture.
Here is a quote from TR after AC became history and he had moved to far bigger projects:
"Somewhere along the way, working on 80-person teams and $50-million budgets stopped being fun and exciting. I missed the working with a small, nimble team and more modest budget. You are able to be more adaptive, creative, and ultimately make less compromised decisions."
The executives who led gaming companies until the end of the 90's were likely to have a background relevant to gaming, here Jeff Anderson Turbine CEO talks about his background and being a childhood fan of RPG's. Before he became Turbine CEO he was at Origin Systems (UO), before that EA's virtual worlds, and before that jobs unrelated to gaming.
That's one of the main things that changed, gaming companies eventfully embraced corporate culture or had it forced on them.
Take EA, started by Trip Harris who studied Strategy and Applied Game Theory in 1984. In 1997 they brought in John S. Riccitiello as their COO, what was his background in gaming, game technology or game design? Well he moved from Clorox (chemicals) to Pepsi Cola to Haagen-Dazs to Wilson Sporting Goods and finally rounded of his solid gaming industry background in Sara Lee Bakery Worldwide. He was later rehired in 2007 as CEO. He gloated (I am not exaggerating here, that's how he sounded) about making designers think of the cost before the they thought of an idea and making games so easy your mum could play them.
As for Turbine, they held to gaming ethos, no cash shop for Lotro when it launched in 2007, but they introduced one in 2010. Why was that, well they were purchased by Warner Bros. The corporate outlook became the priority, when it lunched (less than a year before the acquisition) it was hailed as the Turbine Model by gaming media, it was one of the least detrimental cash shops there was. Within a year of purchase by WB the cash shop was as bad as any other MMO of that time.
The big gaming publishers have become hugely more profitable, more like movie studios now in clout and revenue. But they lost their gaming ethos along the way, you only have to look at everything from gambling in gaming to "skin economies" to realise that. (I posted all this years before gaming became the biggest entertainment industry.)
It takes two to tango Brainy, AAA and AA western MMORPG's are in intensive care, but MMOs abound and rake in huge revenues. Customers have not abandoned MMORPG's they have just moved to lesser MMOs and indeed other genres inspired by MMORPG gameplay like MOBA and co-op.
When John Riccitiello became CEO of EA he said "I want everybody on the creative team to be accountants, understanding what anything they want to create costs" and "I want our games to be so easy your mum could play them", the executive also drives the methods of revenue like live service which effects so much of what we play. More on John later.
Well I understand the point you make here and I agree that 1 thing has huge ramifications. But that design decision in and of itself doesnt make a bad game. This is no different than Disney making kids movies and another company making horror movies. Disney "used" to make plenty of kids movies with crossover appeal.
If that is the vision, then why didnt they make a game that was amazing and appealed to that demo? Why dont we see any MMO's at all that are highly rated? I agree I probably wouldnt be a prime target for a game like that, but the Devs could still make a good game.
Either way this is just 1 studio, what are the rest doing?
It takes two to tango Brainy, AAA and AA western MMORPG's are in intensive care, but MMOs abound and rake in huge revenues. Customers have not abandoned MMORPG's they have just moved to lesser MMOs and indeed other genres inspired by MMORPG gameplay like MOBA and co-op.
I think here is why we dont agree. I dont agree MMO's are racking in cash year over year compared to years ago. All I see is new MMO's failing or losing customers left and right. I see some MMO's from 10+ years ago still existing, but only 1 FFXIV is actually growing. Nothing recently released is doing amazing. I think you are probably talking about games that I dont even consider are MMO's like Diablo Immortal (which is still debatable if that game will ever make more money than D3). The closest thing to success was 1 single game "New World" which released its 1 year expansion for FREE, no revenue from that at all, they have lost 99.8% of their customers and there is a big question whether they will ever release an expansion they can monetize for a profit.
So tell me in 2022 or 2023 what MMO released that is doing so great, I am curious what you are even talking about.
I do wish there more games for 'everyone' instead of these games trying to have 'something for everyone.' I guess devs expect people to have blinders on to ignore certain aspects of a game while playing or something but either dont understand why some aspects can't be ignored (like log in rewards, lootboxes, etc) or just dont care and think development is just another job. At the very least, more games should offer an optional server that doesn't have all those gimmicks for people to enjoy the game naturally.
When John Riccitiello became CEO of EA he said "I want everybody on the creative team to be accountants, understanding what anything they want to create costs" and "I want our games to be so easy your mum could play them", the executive also drives the methods of revenue like live service which effects so much of what we play. More on John later.
Well I understand the point you make here and I agree that 1 thing has huge ramifications. But that design decision in and of itself doesnt make a bad game. This is no different than Disney making kids movies and another company making horror movies. Disney "used" to make plenty of kids movies with crossover appeal.
If that is the vision, then why didnt they make a game that was amazing and appealed to that demo? Why dont we see any MMO's at all that are highly rated? I agree I probably wouldnt be a prime target for a game like that, but the Devs could still make a good game.
Either way this is just 1 studio, what are the rest doing?
It takes two to tango Brainy, AAA and AA western MMORPG's are in intensive care, but MMOs abound and rake in huge revenues. Customers have not abandoned MMORPG's they have just moved to lesser MMOs and indeed other genres inspired by MMORPG gameplay like MOBA and co-op.
I think here is why we dont agree. I dont agree MMO's are racking in cash year over year compared to years ago. All I see is new MMO's failing or losing customers left and right. I see some MMO's from 10+ years ago still existing, but only 1 FFXIV is actually growing. Nothing recently released is doing amazing. I think you are probably talking about games that I dont even consider are MMO's like Diablo Immortal (which is still debatable if that game will ever make more money than D3). The closest thing to success was 1 single game "New World" which released its 1 year expansion for FREE, no revenue from that at all, they have lost 99.8% of their customers and there is a big question whether they will ever release an expansion they can monetize for a profit.
So tell me in 2022 or 2023 what MMO released that is doing so great, I am curious what you are even talking about.
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
When John Riccitiello became CEO of EA he said "I want everybody on the creative team to be accountants, understanding what anything they want to create costs" and "I want our games to be so easy your mum could play them", the executive also drives the methods of revenue like live service which effects so much of what we play. More on John later.
Well I understand the point you make here and I agree that 1 thing has huge ramifications. But that design decision in and of itself doesnt make a bad game. This is no different than Disney making kids movies and another company making horror movies. Disney "used" to make plenty of kids movies with crossover appeal.
If that is the vision, then why didnt they make a game that was amazing and appealed to that demo? Why dont we see any MMO's at all that are highly rated? I agree I probably wouldnt be a prime target for a game like that, but the Devs could still make a good game.
Either way this is just 1 studio, what are the rest doing?
It takes two to tango Brainy, AAA and AA western MMORPG's are in intensive care, but MMOs abound and rake in huge revenues. Customers have not abandoned MMORPG's they have just moved to lesser MMOs and indeed other genres inspired by MMORPG gameplay like MOBA and co-op.
I think here is why we dont agree. I dont agree MMO's are racking in cash year over year compared to years ago. All I see is new MMO's failing or losing customers left and right. I see some MMO's from 10+ years ago still existing, but only 1 FFXIV is actually growing. Nothing recently released is doing amazing. I think you are probably talking about games that I dont even consider are MMO's like Diablo Immortal (which is still debatable if that game will ever make more money than D3). The closest thing to success was 1 single game "New World" which released its 1 year expansion for FREE, no revenue from that at all, they have lost 99.8% of their customers and there is a big question whether they will ever release an expansion they can monetize for a profit.
So tell me in 2022 or 2023 what MMO released that is doing so great, I am curious what you are even talking about.
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
By some accounts there is a high probability a substantial number if not even a majority of those concurrent "players" are actually bots, at least based on the multiple waves of mass bannings in the millions the AGS version has had since launch.
Still, it's the best example there is right now. New World is back in the 20K + range and even @Iselin is thinking of taking a break this summer once the next ESO expansion releases.
Truth be told, I've been thinking what my next game might be so maybe I'll join him.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When John Riccitiello became CEO of EA he said "I want everybody on the creative team to be accountants, understanding what anything they want to create costs" and "I want our games to be so easy your mum could play them", the executive also drives the methods of revenue like live service which effects so much of what we play. More on John later.
Well I understand the point you make here and I agree that 1 thing has huge ramifications. But that design decision in and of itself doesnt make a bad game. This is no different than Disney making kids movies and another company making horror movies. Disney "used" to make plenty of kids movies with crossover appeal.
If that is the vision, then why didnt they make a game that was amazing and appealed to that demo? Why dont we see any MMO's at all that are highly rated? I agree I probably wouldnt be a prime target for a game like that, but the Devs could still make a good game.
Either way this is just 1 studio, what are the rest doing?
It takes two to tango Brainy, AAA and AA western MMORPG's are in intensive care, but MMOs abound and rake in huge revenues. Customers have not abandoned MMORPG's they have just moved to lesser MMOs and indeed other genres inspired by MMORPG gameplay like MOBA and co-op.
I think here is why we dont agree. I dont agree MMO's are racking in cash year over year compared to years ago. All I see is new MMO's failing or losing customers left and right. I see some MMO's from 10+ years ago still existing, but only 1 FFXIV is actually growing. Nothing recently released is doing amazing. I think you are probably talking about games that I dont even consider are MMO's like Diablo Immortal (which is still debatable if that game will ever make more money than D3). The closest thing to success was 1 single game "New World" which released its 1 year expansion for FREE, no revenue from that at all, they have lost 99.8% of their customers and there is a big question whether they will ever release an expansion they can monetize for a profit.
So tell me in 2022 or 2023 what MMO released that is doing so great, I am curious what you are even talking about.
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
By some accounts there is a high probability a substantial number if not even a majority of those concurrent "players" are actually bots, at least based on the multiple waves of mass bannings in the millions the AGS version has had since launch.
Still, it's the best example there is right now. New World is back in the 20K + range and even @Iselin is thinking of taking a break this summer once the next ESO expansion releases.
Truth be told, I've been thinking what my next game might be so maybe I'll join him.
Lost Ark sweeps bots pretty regular , did it again 2 weeks ago , the 220- 235 k Co current us what it continues to fall back to after sweep. And a good indicator that they are achieving the 20 - 25% retention they targrted
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
But lets say for arguements sake, this game is an MMO, then so what? 1 FREE game released that is doing ok doesnt really show that all these customers are supporting shoddy games. You have anything else that is actually an MMORPG?
223k out of 1 billion gamers doesnt really seem relevant to me. Every game is going to have some players play it. If 99.999% of the people boycott something yet someone plays it that means everyone is supporting it? It doesnt matter how bad the genre gets there is always going to be SOME buyers. In order to see if a market is doing badly you really need to look at what the majority is doing, and right now they are sitting out.
Don't know about you, but my friends and I used to play Axis & Allies, a big step up from Stratego.
We did everything from A&A to WW2 war games, through to Dune and Buck Rogers in the 25th Century:
an the big disappointment Wilma wasn't in the box... xD
The games the OP wants exist, but people don't want to actual play them. They would rather make big elongated "im so smart" post then download the games.
Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants.
WoW modernized mmorpgs. Anything older was a draft of what was needed. Unfortunately, for the last 12 years it had gone too far with it being DEVELOPERS FAULT.
We can't just blame the developers Delete, though it is the studios fault in the main. Studios became more and more run by executives vison not designers vision, as the industry started to become more and more profitable executives from other industries parachuted into gaming studios like the former CEO of EA. That guy had been the likes of VP to Haagen Dazs and a big chemical company, no previous experience of gaming, EA's current board has only one person on it with gaming experience. As gaming became the most profitable form of entertainment industry that process sped up. Developers don't have the say they used to, it is all about how a game will look to investors and what the quarterlies will be like.
We played our part too, if you have played a MMO since WoW came out you are part of the problem. We all are, but what were we going to do give up on MMORPG's because they were changing? So I put some of the blame on our shoulders, even though we had no idea that the changes we saw in in WoW were going to be taken this far.
It 100% is the dev's fault. When people are talking devs they are saying the people with the creative control. Nobody is talking about some intern with no say. The vast majority of the executives of these studios come from the ranks of devs.
Even this CEO you are talking about, I doubt they even have any creative control at all. Likely they are just steering the funding and overall goals of the company.
It certainly is not the customers fault. My goodness, the genre is deing because people wont purchases this trash and the genre is dieing because they did purchase this trash, make up your mind already. Its a devs job to understand a profitable core customer group and make a product that group of customers will want. Nobody else has control other than the people developing it other than maybe a government regulator.
The entire reason MMO genre is in decline is because many customers have abandoned it, and have been giving the trash extremely poor feedback and rightly so. Stop blaming the customer geez.
Your mistake is thinking the executives who created games have any desire to preserve or increase the popularity of MMORPGs, they are mostly interested in making big money in the "genre" of video gaming.
MMORPGS are in the sub genre of "online" games, which in itself has dozens of sub variants beneath it which covers different platforms, PC, Mobile, multiple consoles, virtual services, FPS shooters MOBAs, Sports, ARPGs, fantasy, sci-fi etc. etc.
Most game executives look at the landscape and if the dev leads are asked for input the big question which has to be answered is, which type of game is the most likely to be the greatest money maker.
So the dev lead who decides MMORPGS are the answer has to convince management their new idea can be competitive which requires comparisons to what already exists and how far their new idea varies from it which can be a very tough sell, especially considering the very high cost it takes to build them.
Foolish is the developer who doesn't consider the economic model in their initial designs or something like that was quoted here recently from some famous name in the industry and they aren't wrong.
MMORPGS just don't stack up.
Also, while MMORPGs might be in the wain, gaming overall keeps growing so apparently most players keep in gaming, just not within the much more narrow sub variant of MMORPGs.
TLDR: most of your analysis and assumptions about gaming are incorrect, prove me wrong.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
But lets say for arguements sake, this game is an MMO, then so what? 1 FREE game released that is doing ok doesnt really show that all these customers are supporting shoddy games. You have anything else that is actually an MMORPG?
223k out of 1 billion gamers doesnt really seem relevant to me. Every game is going to have some players play it. If 99.999% of the people boycott something yet someone plays it that means everyone is supporting it? It doesnt matter how bad the genre gets there is always going to be SOME buyers. In order to see if a market is doing badly you really need to look at what the majority is doing, and right now they are sitting out.
223k concurrent players would put it at about 750k - 1,250,000 active accts , which are very strong numbers , for ex . Ff14 generally has about 235 -280k concurrent players ESO about 175k concurrent
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
But lets say for arguements sake, this game is an MMO, then so what? 1 FREE game released that is doing ok doesnt really show that all these customers are supporting shoddy games. You have anything else that is actually an MMORPG?
223k out of 1 billion gamers doesnt really seem relevant to me. Every game is going to have some players play it. If 99.999% of the people boycott something yet someone plays it that means everyone is supporting it? It doesnt matter how bad the genre gets there is always going to be SOME buyers. In order to see if a market is doing badly you really need to look at what the majority is doing, and right now they are sitting out.
223k concurrent players would put it at about 750k - 1,250,000 active accts , which are very strong numbers , for ex . Ff14 generally has about 235 -280k concurrent players ESO about 175k concurrent
Err, source for those concurrency numbers for ESO and FFXIV?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don't know about you, but my friends and I used to play Axis & Allies, a big step up from Stratego.
We did everything from A&A to WW2 war games, through to Dune and Buck Rogers in the 25th Century:
an the big disappointment Wilma wasn't in the box... xD
The games the OP wants exist, but people don't want to actual play them. They would rather make big elongated "im so smart" post then download the games.
Nope, they don't exist.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
When I played ESO I was expecting more of a Skyrim/Morrowind type of experience but with other players......Instead it did feel like the same old boring questing and everything felt the same...I felt zero progression in that game....At least in Skyrim, if I want to go wallop a lower level cave or something I can do that....ESO? nope...wherever I go levels with me and I feel no sense of dominance or being dominated....It just feels blah and boring.
Don't know about you, but my friends and I used to play Axis & Allies, a big step up from Stratego.
We did everything from A&A to WW2 war games, through to Dune and Buck Rogers in the 25th Century:
an the big disappointment Wilma wasn't in the box... xD
The games the OP wants exist, but people don't want to actual play them. They would rather make big elongated "im so smart" post then download the games.
Nope, they don't exist.
Shroud of the Avatar, Embers Adrift, Saga of Ryzom, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest, Everquest 2
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
But lets say for arguements sake, this game is an MMO, then so what? 1 FREE game released that is doing ok doesnt really show that all these customers are supporting shoddy games. You have anything else that is actually an MMORPG?
223k out of 1 billion gamers doesnt really seem relevant to me. Every game is going to have some players play it. If 99.999% of the people boycott something yet someone plays it that means everyone is supporting it? It doesnt matter how bad the genre gets there is always going to be SOME buyers. In order to see if a market is doing badly you really need to look at what the majority is doing, and right now they are sitting out.
223k concurrent players would put it at about 750k - 1,250,000 active accts , which are very strong numbers , for ex . Ff14 generally has about 235 -280k concurrent players ESO about 175k concurrent
I dont know total numbers but steam shows ff14 at 25k and eso at 15-20k How many are using the other launcher is unknown to me but I would guess most are using steam
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
But lets say for arguements sake, this game is an MMO, then so what? 1 FREE game released that is doing ok doesnt really show that all these customers are supporting shoddy games. You have anything else that is actually an MMORPG?
223k out of 1 billion gamers doesnt really seem relevant to me. Every game is going to have some players play it. If 99.999% of the people boycott something yet someone plays it that means everyone is supporting it? It doesnt matter how bad the genre gets there is always going to be SOME buyers. In order to see if a market is doing badly you really need to look at what the majority is doing, and right now they are sitting out.
223k concurrent players would put it at about 750k - 1,250,000 active accts , which are very strong numbers , for ex . Ff14 generally has about 235 -280k concurrent players ESO about 175k concurrent
Well first Lost ark is free, ESO and FF14 are not free. Lost ark can be mostly bots that have paid nothing. At least with ESO, FF14 those require money, so that eliminates many bots.
It really doesnt even matter because I dont even consider Lost Ark a MMO. You could easily just be talking Fortnite or Call of duty. So this point that MMORPGs are making bankroll is really Moot if the only game you can show is not even a real MMORPG.
Even IF there was a game to release today that could get a decent pop, it still would not make the genre overall doing well. The fact you cannot point to a single game in this genre is very apparent and speaks to the entire problem that customers have mostly abandoned this genre.
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
But lets say for arguements sake, this game is an MMO, then so what? 1 FREE game released that is doing ok doesnt really show that all these customers are supporting shoddy games. You have anything else that is actually an MMORPG?
223k out of 1 billion gamers doesnt really seem relevant to me. Every game is going to have some players play it. If 99.999% of the people boycott something yet someone plays it that means everyone is supporting it? It doesnt matter how bad the genre gets there is always going to be SOME buyers. In order to see if a market is doing badly you really need to look at what the majority is doing, and right now they are sitting out.
223k concurrent players would put it at about 750k - 1,250,000 active accts , which are very strong numbers , for ex . Ff14 generally has about 235 -280k concurrent players ESO about 175k concurrent
Well first Lost ark is free, ESO and FF14 are not free. Lost ark can be mostly bots that have paid nothing. At least with ESO, FF14 those require money, so that eliminates many bots.
It really doesnt even matter because I dont even consider Lost Ark a MMO. You could easily just be talking Fortnite or Call of duty. So this point that MMORPGs are making bankroll is really Moot if the only game you can show is not even a real MMORPG.
Even IF there was a game to release today that could get a decent pop, it still would not make the genre overall doing well. The fact you cannot point to a single game in this genre is very apparent and speaks to the entire problem that customers have mostly abandoned this genre.
Which is one big reason why the larger Publishers won't green light creating a new AAA MMORPG.
No recent evidence that investing large sums of money across 5-10 years will really pay off, so they have shied away for many years now.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Which is one big reason why the larger Publishers won't green light creating a new AAA MMORPG.
No recent evidence that investing large sums of money across 5-10 years will really pay off, so they have shied away for many years now.
Its probably a good business decision, if they are not going to make a quality product that people will like, then its best not to even bother. I agree with that. On the flip side, if they ever do build a solid product that is highly rated with the playerbase, who knows how much money could be made. Unfortunately we wont know that until someone actually builds it.
Pretty much describes all corporate products that are unknown. Almost every large company started from a product where the company took a risk. Someone will fill the gap, its just a question of when.
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
But lets say for arguements sake, this game is an MMO, then so what? 1 FREE game released that is doing ok doesnt really show that all these customers are supporting shoddy games. You have anything else that is actually an MMORPG?
223k out of 1 billion gamers doesnt really seem relevant to me. Every game is going to have some players play it. If 99.999% of the people boycott something yet someone plays it that means everyone is supporting it? It doesnt matter how bad the genre gets there is always going to be SOME buyers. In order to see if a market is doing badly you really need to look at what the majority is doing, and right now they are sitting out.
223k concurrent players would put it at about 750k - 1,250,000 active accts , which are very strong numbers , for ex . Ff14 generally has about 235 -280k concurrent players ESO about 175k concurrent
Well first Lost ark is free, ESO and FF14 are not free. Lost ark can be mostly bots that have paid nothing. At least with ESO, FF14 those require money, so that eliminates many bots.
It really doesnt even matter because I dont even consider Lost Ark a MMO. You could easily just be talking Fortnite or Call of duty. So this point that MMORPGs are making bankroll is really Moot if the only game you can show is not even a real MMORPG.
Even IF there was a game to release today that could get a decent pop, it still would not make the genre overall doing well. The fact you cannot point to a single game in this genre is very apparent and speaks to the entire problem that customers have mostly abandoned this genre.
There's a fellow in Cyrodiil , he has 15+ bots with him. There's bots all over ESo lol
Lost Ark would be the latest with 223k concurrent players right now , and it certainly was Data driven built with systems implemented that follow the money.
But lets say for arguements sake, this game is an MMO, then so what? 1 FREE game released that is doing ok doesnt really show that all these customers are supporting shoddy games. You have anything else that is actually an MMORPG?
223k out of 1 billion gamers doesnt really seem relevant to me. Every game is going to have some players play it. If 99.999% of the people boycott something yet someone plays it that means everyone is supporting it? It doesnt matter how bad the genre gets there is always going to be SOME buyers. In order to see if a market is doing badly you really need to look at what the majority is doing, and right now they are sitting out.
223k concurrent players would put it at about 750k - 1,250,000 active accts , which are very strong numbers , for ex . Ff14 generally has about 235 -280k concurrent players ESO about 175k concurrent
Well first Lost ark is free, ESO and FF14 are not free. Lost ark can be mostly bots that have paid nothing. At least with ESO, FF14 those require money, so that eliminates many bots.
It really doesnt even matter because I dont even consider Lost Ark a MMO. You could easily just be talking Fortnite or Call of duty. So this point that MMORPGs are making bankroll is really Moot if the only game you can show is not even a real MMORPG.
Even IF there was a game to release today that could get a decent pop, it still would not make the genre overall doing well. The fact you cannot point to a single game in this genre is very apparent and speaks to the entire problem that customers have mostly abandoned this genre.
There's a fellow in Cyrodiil , he has 15+ bots with him. There's bots all over ESo lol
Comments
I'll rephrase It's the companies management's fault, it jut seemed easer to say developers.
Even this CEO you are talking about, I doubt they even have any creative control at all. Likely they are just steering the funding and overall goals of the company.
It certainly is not the customers fault. My goodness, the genre is deing because people wont purchases this trash and the genre is dieing because they did purchase this trash, make up your mind already. Its a devs job to understand a profitable core customer group and make a product that group of customers will want. Nobody else has control other than the people developing it other than maybe a government regulator.
The entire reason MMO genre is in decline is because many customers have abandoned it, and have been giving the trash extremely poor feedback and rightly so. Stop blaming the customer geez.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Which analytics/data showing where players spend money dictates much of development .
Ironically it is the players who are quite culpable in the direction of the genre, the Investors and Devs just follow the money,being on both sides of this I understand the frustration, as a gamer I dislike the direction the genre has taken , as an investor in the genre since 04 , my portfolio makes me smile.
You are questioning the creative control that senior executives yield, Darkhawke has gone over some of that area. But I will give some more examples.
When John Riccitiello became CEO of EA he said "I want everybody on the creative team to be accountants, understanding what anything they want to create costs" and "I want our games to be so easy your mum could play them", the executive also drives the methods of revenue like live service which effects so much of what we play. More on John later.
More examples (from a post I did years ago):
It takes two to tango Brainy, AAA and AA western MMORPG's are in intensive care, but MMOs abound and rake in huge revenues. Customers have not abandoned MMORPG's they have just moved to lesser MMOs and indeed other genres inspired by MMORPG gameplay like MOBA and co-op.
Well I understand the point you make here and I agree that 1 thing has huge ramifications. But that design decision in and of itself doesnt make a bad game. This is no different than Disney making kids movies and another company making horror movies. Disney "used" to make plenty of kids movies with crossover appeal.
If that is the vision, then why didnt they make a game that was amazing and appealed to that demo? Why dont we see any MMO's at all that are highly rated? I agree I probably wouldnt be a prime target for a game like that, but the Devs could still make a good game.
Either way this is just 1 studio, what are the rest doing?
I think here is why we dont agree. I dont agree MMO's are racking in cash year over year compared to years ago. All I see is new MMO's failing or losing customers left and right. I see some MMO's from 10+ years ago still existing, but only 1 FFXIV is actually growing. Nothing recently released is doing amazing. I think you are probably talking about games that I dont even consider are MMO's like Diablo Immortal (which is still debatable if that game will ever make more money than D3). The closest thing to success was 1 single game "New World" which released its 1 year expansion for FREE, no revenue from that at all, they have lost 99.8% of their customers and there is a big question whether they will ever release an expansion they can monetize for a profit.
So tell me in 2022 or 2023 what MMO released that is doing so great, I am curious what you are even talking about.
Still, it's the best example there is right now. New World is back in the 20K + range and even @Iselin is thinking of taking a break this summer once the next ESO expansion releases.
Truth be told, I've been thinking what my next game might be so maybe I'll join him.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But lets say for arguements sake, this game is an MMO, then so what? 1 FREE game released that is doing ok doesnt really show that all these customers are supporting shoddy games. You have anything else that is actually an MMORPG?
223k out of 1 billion gamers doesnt really seem relevant to me. Every game is going to have some players play it. If 99.999% of the people boycott something yet someone plays it that means everyone is supporting it? It doesnt matter how bad the genre gets there is always going to be SOME buyers. In order to see if a market is doing badly you really need to look at what the majority is doing, and right now they are sitting out.
MMORPGS are in the sub genre of "online" games, which in itself has dozens of sub variants beneath it which covers different platforms, PC, Mobile, multiple consoles, virtual services, FPS shooters MOBAs, Sports, ARPGs, fantasy, sci-fi etc. etc.
Most game executives look at the landscape and if the dev leads are asked for input the big question which has to be answered is, which type of game is the most likely to be the greatest money maker.
So the dev lead who decides MMORPGS are the answer has to convince management their new idea can be competitive which requires comparisons to what already exists and how far their new idea varies from it which can be a very tough sell, especially considering the very high cost it takes to build them.
Foolish is the developer who doesn't consider the economic model in their initial designs or something like that was quoted here recently from some famous name in the industry and they aren't wrong.
MMORPGS just don't stack up.
Also, while MMORPGs might be in the wain, gaming overall keeps growing so apparently most players keep in gaming, just not within the much more narrow sub variant of MMORPGs.
TLDR: most of your analysis and assumptions about gaming are incorrect, prove me wrong.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nope, they don't exist.
Shroud of the Avatar, Embers Adrift, Saga of Ryzom, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest, Everquest 2
How many are using the other launcher is unknown to me but I would guess most are using steam
It really doesnt even matter because I dont even consider Lost Ark a MMO. You could easily just be talking Fortnite or Call of duty. So this point that MMORPGs are making bankroll is really Moot if the only game you can show is not even a real MMORPG.
Even IF there was a game to release today that could get a decent pop, it still would not make the genre overall doing well. The fact you cannot point to a single game in this genre is very apparent and speaks to the entire problem that customers have mostly abandoned this genre.
No recent evidence that investing large sums of money across 5-10 years will really pay off, so they have shied away for many years now.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Pretty much describes all corporate products that are unknown. Almost every large company started from a product where the company took a risk. Someone will fill the gap, its just a question of when.
There's a fellow in Cyrodiil , he has 15+ bots with him. There's bots all over ESo lol