For ideas of things that Players can do that help other players, and promote socializing and friendships in MMORPGs. I'm hoping for a good list, if we can come up with stuff new and old.
I can see what you are aiming for, but I'm going to be pedantic on terminology (as usual :P )
I want to distinguish between "socialising" and "teamwork". As you know they aren't the same thing, though there is a link of course.
Most of the suggestions in this thread are for things that will encourage teamwork. Increased interdependency and harder content requiring multiple people are great ways to increase the amount of teamwork needed in a game, but that won't necessarily promote socialising.
Actual abilities that promote socialising, and not just teamwork? Thats a tough one. I'm not certain a single ability could accomplish this, but if you expand to wider features then there is definitely some stuff. I think @brainy is probably on the right track.
My criteria for features that would promote socialising:
Has to be low intensity - if all my attention is on the content, I won't have any left for socialising.
Should be flexible on group size - we want the feature to bring people together and be convenient.
Should allow for some sort of self expression - can't become friends with a wall! Some sort of self-expression helps others get to know you
Needs to include downtime - can't socialise if I'm busy! a bit of downtime here and there will give me time to chat to others and actually socialise.
A reason to participate - no good creating a feature if there is no reason for players to engage!
Something like LotRO's music system fits the bill here. Requires minimal skill, can scale up and down in group size. Choice of music is a form of self-expression, especially when combined with the outfit system. Plenty of downtime to chat to bandmates or the audience.
The only thing missing from LotRO's music system was a reason to participate (beyond intrinsic value ofc). I don't think there were any quests leading into it, certainly no rewards for doing it.
This is the point I was going to make, anything that increases interaction is great, but socialising is as important as teamwork if not more so. The best way to do that in my eyes would be the equivalent of working of "fatigue" downtime at an inn, the likes of dancing and having a pint would slowly work of the downtime. Then some buffs from "minstrels" and that's all you would really need.
I think that this subject is much more difficult than I thought.
First of all, "downtime" is a lousy way to do things. If players consider something as "downtime" then something's wrong.
I'm trying to find the means for players to interact, to mingle, in a natural way that's just "playing the game." This is basic socializing.
Having come from UO and not sticking in any other game, I saw this in UO but never again in any other game.
I didn't play EQ or AC, but I have a feeling there was a large degree of this "natural socializing" in those games too. That was because (IMO) both games made a better attempt at creating a full scale "open world" than later games. In EQ's case, the level grind and power gaps created problems for that sort of "World", adventuring and socializing. WoW fixed those problems at the cost of giving up on the Open World concept, where socializing was delegated to just your steady Groups (if you could maintain them because of the forced division), and not open to the other players of the World at large.
So this is the basis of this topic, how do you design features that create this "natural socializing"?
So this is the basis of this topic, how do you design features that create this "natural socializing"?
The simple answer here, is having things in game that other players need to interact with other players to obtain what they want.
There is going to be this huge group of people that are going to called this "forced" in some way. But the reality is, if you encourage people to be completely independent of other people then there will be less socializing.
The key is how can you add activities to the game that doesnt piss off the "solo only group". Or maybe just completely disregard these people and let them play another game. Although they do tend to be a pretty big base of players.
How big is the solo ONLY group vs the solo sometimes group, I dont know, wish I knew that answer.
So this is the basis of this topic, how do you design features that create this "natural socializing"?
The simple answer here, is having things in game that other players need to interact with other players to obtain what they want.
There is going to be this huge group of people that are going to called this "forced" in some way. But the reality is, if you encourage people to be completely independent of other people then there will be less socializing.
The key is how can you add activities to the game that doesnt piss off the "solo only group". Or maybe just completely disregard these people and let them play another game. Although they do tend to be a pretty big base of players.
How big is the solo ONLY group vs the solo sometimes group, I dont know, wish I knew that answer.
It would be called forced because it is. Any time players need to interact it is by definition forced. That can be a reasonable requirement for some things. Not everything has to be accessible to solo players.
For example ESO has high difficulty content for groups, but also for solo players. The content is different, but at least nobody is left out in the cold.
Does it matter how may are solo only or sometimes? That which accommodates those that always solo will provide for those that sometimes do, making that content beneficial to everyone except those that play in groups only.
This is the point I was going to make, anything that increases interaction is great, but socialising is as important as teamwork if not more so. The best way to do that in my eyes would be the equivalent of working of "fatigue" downtime at an inn, the likes of dancing and having a pint would slowly work of the downtime. Then some buffs from "minstrels" and that's all you would really need.
Fatigue is a negative reinforcement. Where a buff is a positive reinforcement.
Games should focus on positive reinforcement as people like that more than negative reinforcement. You can argue the semantics as both essentially being the same. However I believe positive reinforcement is generally viewed as fun, where negative reinforcement is viewed as punishment.
Good point, maybe buffs only, but they would need to take as long to get from an "inn" as working off fatigue. The problem there is that is might be harder to work out do players really need the buff for an activity as opposed to fatigue?
I think that this subject is much more difficult than I thought.
First of all, "downtime" is a lousy way to do things. If players consider something as "downtime" then something's wrong.
I'm trying to find the means for players to interact, to mingle, in a natural way that's just "playing the game." This is basic socializing.
Having come from UO and not sticking in any other game, I saw this in UO but never again in any other game.
I didn't play EQ or AC, but I have a feeling there was a large degree of this "natural socializing" in those games too. That was because (IMO) both games made a better attempt at creating a full scale "open world" than later games. In EQ's case, the level grind and power gaps created problems for that sort of "World", adventuring and socializing. WoW fixed those problems at the cost of giving up on the Open World concept, where socializing was delegated to just your steady Groups (if you could maintain them because of the forced division), and not open to the other players of the World at large.
So this is the basis of this topic, how do you design features that create this "natural socializing"?
If you take players away from gaming they will complain and that's what downtime is, even if it is "uptime" and you are getting a buff. The important thing is making sure the players enjoy the activity, if the music and dancing was good and the ale had you falling around on the floor that sort of thing. You could go down the route of minigames in the "inn", but the idea is socializing, so I would not go that way.
Here is an outrageous cheat for you, how about all players start with a buff, you get that for just being online, but it goes down the longer you are in combat, that's when you need to go to an inn and get it refreshed. Obviously you can't just log off and get it back once you log in. So it is a buff that is really fatigue.
This is the point I was going to make, anything that increases interaction is great, but socialising is as important as teamwork if not more so. The best way to do that in my eyes would be the equivalent of working of "fatigue" downtime at an inn, the likes of dancing and having a pint would slowly work of the downtime. Then some buffs from "minstrels" and that's all you would really need.
Fatigue is a negative reinforcement. Where a buff is a positive reinforcement.
Games should focus on positive reinforcement as people like that more than negative reinforcement. You can argue the semantics as both essentially being the same. However I believe positive reinforcement is generally viewed as fun, where negative reinforcement is viewed as punishment.
Good point, maybe buffs only, but they would need to take as long to get from an "inn" as working off fatigue. The problem there is that is might be harder to work out do players really need the buff for an activity as opposed to fatigue?
Err, wasn't that idea tried long ago on SWG which even their Dev team eventually walked away from requiring?
SWG was where I first heard of this being used, the players swore by it and removing it was just "ever more easy mode", that bane of MMORPG's.
Swore by it, or swore at it?
When I read a review in Computer Gaming World "magazine" they definitely did not speak kindly of SWG overall, gave it their infamous "Coaster of the Year" award. (As in use the DVD's for table protectors)
One area they decried was the medical system where players were waiting in long lines to see player controlled "doctor" to remove a debuff that built up over time I think.
Then there was the forced cantina system, players had to sit in them for some period of time to get some sort of bonus, might even have had to tip the performers.
Apparently the benefits from both were too big to ignore so a substantial amount of playing time was required (15 to 30 mins at least).
These two features completely turned me off from ever considering giving SWG a try, and come to think of it, was probably the start of what has become my almost full blown indifference of most things related to Star Wars.
They eventually walked it back big time which you said was ,"ever more easy mode"as but developers normally only make QOL improvements because enough of their current customers have been asking for them to do so.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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We need a reversal of the one man swiss army knife concept that plagues many of today's games.
If you can do everything then there is obviously no need for other people.
DAoC had roles and benefits for each class and spec. You WANTED a bard in your groups for the speed and the fatigue regen. You WANTED a Warden for their Bubble spell. You WANTED a Mentalist for their "crack". So on and so forth. You needed to communicate on what you were pulling and what should be mezzed or slept or rooted.
8 person groups... the more you had the faster you could pull and the hared enemies you could fight. You WANTED to fill you group, even with strangers.
As long as you can make a Rambo/Gandalf/The Rock character all rolled into one there is simply no reason to group or socialize.
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This is the point I was going to make, anything that increases interaction is great, but socialising is as important as teamwork if not more so. The best way to do that in my eyes would be the equivalent of working of "fatigue" downtime at an inn, the likes of dancing and having a pint would slowly work of the downtime. Then some buffs from "minstrels" and that's all you would really need.
Fatigue is a negative reinforcement. Where a buff is a positive reinforcement.
Games should focus on positive reinforcement as people like that more than negative reinforcement. You can argue the semantics as both essentially being the same. However I believe positive reinforcement is generally viewed as fun, where negative reinforcement is viewed as punishment.
Good point, maybe buffs only, but they would need to take as long to get from an "inn" as working off fatigue. The problem there is that is might be harder to work out do players really need the buff for an activity as opposed to fatigue?
Err, wasn't that idea tried long ago on SWG which even their Dev team eventually walked away from requiring?
SWG was where I first heard of this being used, the players swore by it and removing it was just "ever more easy mode", that bane of MMORPG's.
Swore by it, or swore at it?
When I read a review in Computer Gaming World "magazine" they definitely did not speak kindly of SWG overall, gave it their infamous "Coaster of the Year" award. (As in use the DVD's for table protectors)
One area they decried was the medical system where players were waiting in long lines to see player controlled "doctor" to remove a debuff that built up over time I think.
Then there was the forced cantina system, players had to sit in them for some period of time to get some sort of bonus, might even have had to tip the performers.
Apparently the benefits from both were too big to ignore so a substantial amount of playing time was required (15 to 30 mins at least).
These two features completely turned me off from ever considering giving SWG a try, and come to think of it, was probably the start of what has become my almost full blown indifference of most things related to Star Wars.
They eventually walked it back big time which you said was ,"ever more easy mode"as but developers normally only make QOL improvements because enough of their current customers have been asking for them to do so.
I was not in SWG, this is from players who were in it, they valued it as a socialising system. Looks like it was not to everyone's taste.
The dangers are clear, if people think they are being stopped from gaming as opposed to enjoying the down time they will become rebels...as it were.
Thinking to when we were talking about how relaxing resource gathering can be and how it was something were you could do something else but I chose not to, the same could be said for waiting in a queue. The difference is gathering makes you think you are gaming, queuing does not. So you would definitely not want a queue into that "inn" I was talking about.
I think that this subject is much more difficult than I thought.
First of all, "downtime" is a lousy way to do things. If players consider something as "downtime" then something's wrong.
I'm trying to find the means for players to interact, to mingle, in a natural way that's just "playing the game." This is basic socializing.
Having come from UO and not sticking in any other game, I saw this in UO but never again in any other game.
I didn't play EQ or AC, but I have a feeling there was a large degree of this "natural socializing" in those games too. That was because (IMO) both games made a better attempt at creating a full scale "open world" than later games. In EQ's case, the level grind and power gaps created problems for that sort of "World", adventuring and socializing. WoW fixed those problems at the cost of giving up on the Open World concept, where socializing was delegated to just your steady Groups (if you could maintain them because of the forced division), and not open to the other players of the World at large.
So this is the basis of this topic, how do you design features that create this "natural socializing"?
If you take players away from gaming they will complain and that's what downtime is, even if it is "uptime" and you are getting a buff. The important thing is making sure the players enjoy the activity, if the music and dancing was good and the ale had you falling around on the floor that sort of thing. You could go down the route of minigames in the "inn", but the idea is socializing, so I would not go that way.
Here is an outrageous cheat for you, how about all players start with a buff, you get that for just being online, but it goes down the longer you are in combat, that's when you need to go to an inn and get it refreshed. Obviously you can't just log off and get it back once you log in. So it is a buff that is really fatigue.
Excellent thinking.
Just spit balling here...
What if you have a base time requirement at either a Tavern, and for each aspect the Player participates in (Music, Food, Alcoholic Drink), that time gets reduced by half each time? So, maybe a the Player hears Music from other Players for 4 minutes and fully recovers. He eats Tavern Food cooked by other Players and now he fully recovers in only 2 minutes. And if he also has a Drink he fully recovers in 1 minute. (The time requirements here are debatable.)
Campsites: The same for Campsites. I think it would be a bonus to socializing if Campsites can be made useful near Dungeons and Ruins, or anywhere in the Wilds. Campsites can be like a makeshift town, where Players can sell and buy loot and supplies, and a Player or a Group can set them up just like a They can build a Tavern in a town. Campsites should be a lesser version of Taverns, IMO. I think that will naturally happen because dealing solely with other Players and not having NPC shops to limit greed will cause some of that. Competition will limit greed too, if a Player doesn't have a monopoly on something bought and sold. So a Campsite that's well defined will be as good as "going to town." But towns will have ALL the amenities, where Campsites will have the needed adventuring amenities.
I disagree on "mini-games", I think. That's a good way to get players to know other players a little. But they shouldn't be part of the requirements, just something to do while you're there. Throwing "Knucklebones" (or Dice), Darts or Axes, etc. can add a little something to these "Worlds."
I'm not sure about the above comments. This needs a lot of thought, IMO.
We need a reversal of the one man swiss army knife concept that plagues many of today's games.
If you can do everything then there is obviously no need for other people.
DAoC had roles and benefits for each class and spec. You WANTED a bard in your groups for the speed and the fatigue regen. You WANTED a Warden for their Bubble spell. You WANTED a Mentalist for their "crack". So on and so forth. You needed to communicate on what you were pulling and what should be mezzed or slept or rooted.
8 person groups... the more you had the faster you could pull and the hared enemies you could fight. You WANTED to fill you group, even with strangers.
As long as you can make a Rambo/Gandalf/The Rock character all rolled into one there is simply no reason to group or socialize.
I agree, but I also think that there are too many "Classes" and that needs to be reduced to a more basic organization. As an example, Mentalists can be a form of Mage that also has many Mage abilities.
As long as you can make a Rambo/Gandalf/The Rock character all rolled into one there is simply no reason to group or socialize.
I seen this first hand in DAOC. They released a "bonedancer" class in an expansion that was a tank, healer, melee dps, mage dps all at the same time. This was the beginning of the end for grouping in Midgard. It also killed the social aspect of that realm.
Although grouping with an optimal 8 man group was still preferred especially for PVP. That Bonedancer class really screwed things up in PVE.
Its a case where people liked the class, but it was a slow poison to the overall game experience. Unintended consequences.
Then there was the forced cantina system, players had to sit in them for some period of time to get some sort of bonus, might even have had to tip the performers.
Apparently the benefits from both were too big to ignore so a substantial amount of playing time was required (15 to 30 mins at least).
I think this is a delicate balance for sure. I agree the buffs cannot be mandatory, nor can they consume alot of your online playtime to get. 15 min for 1 hour buff is way to much IMO. 1 min per hour is more reasonable, especially if you can stack that where 5 min = 5 hours.
I also like it when the buffs do not leave when you log out. Let them roll over to your next login.
Additionally getting multiple buffs at the same time from different activities in the area is even better.
Finally, the game needs a system of teleportation where you can get to and from the "social buff" spot quickly.
The social spot should be somewhere people go to do stuff normally and by the way lets interact while im here. It cant be something that is so redundant that people start to resent it.
The key is to make natural hangout areas, that casual people can join in and not feel embarassed or harrassed.
I was not in SWG, this is from players who were in it, they valued it as a socialising system. Looks like it was not to everyone's taste.
The dangers are clear, if people think they are being stopped from gaming as opposed to enjoying the down time they will become rebels...as it were.
Interesting this scenario. Because @Kyleran didnt actually say they didnt like the system, but implied they didnt like the concept of the system. If they would have played, they might have enjoyed the system who knows. Probably not, but without trying there is always uncertainty.
I never played SWG so cannot give an opinion on this system. Sounds like it went to far.
This is the problem with new systems. Some people wont even try it. Others will rebel because its different. You have to really nail a new system or get a alot of heat.
If this system was conceptually good but needed to be tweaked. Then who is to blame for its failure? Testers or Devs?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No matter how many systems you design you cannot create the desire for people to socialize in games when they have no need to. Games that force it end up with multiboxing.
Currently Discord and other social media outlets are what people use for their socializing and games are not the main way to socialize. More like an outlet to just game while watching TV shows or chatting with others and mindlessly farming or grinding.
Gaming isn't what it was in 2000. Lot of the priorities have shifted and maintaining social media is a more prevalent concern among gamers and those that stream have totally different considerations. The old methods are not going to be effective in this landscape and people will find ways to circumvent them. They will end up as a white albatross on our necks.
No matter how many systems you design you cannot create the desire for people to socialize in games when they have no need to. Games that force it end up with multiboxing.
Sure you can. The systems can create the "need" and the desire. Like I said. In DAoC the incentive was to be able to capitalize on the skills of others. You WANTED the Bard, the Mentalist, etc... 8 man groups. None of this 4 man stuff.
People do not group today because there is no benefit to it. They can be Kyleran's Black Adam and plow through anything.
Which is fine.. if you like that. There are countless games that let you do that. The tradeoff is that you have little "group" experiences in those MMOs and when you do they are limited to some kind of DungeonFinder speed run where you don't even say 5 words.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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As long as you can make a Rambo/Gandalf/The Rock character all rolled into one there is simply no reason to group or socialize.
The reason to group or socialize when you are not dependent on others is because you want to, the same as any other voluntary association.
Well in real life, some of the most social places are forced: school, work, sports practice ...
Many of those kids would choose not to go to those if they had another option, but while they happen to be doing those things they socialize. Its mainly because any activity that puts people together with the opportunity to socialize people will more likely do that.
I bet there was much less socializing during covid.
Then there was the forced cantina system, players had to sit in them for some period of time to get some sort of bonus, might even have had to tip the performers.
Apparently the benefits from both were too big to ignore so a substantial amount of playing time was required (15 to 30 mins at least).
I think this is a delicate balance for sure. I agree the buffs cannot be mandatory, nor can they consume alot of your online playtime to get. 15 min for 1 hour buff is way to much IMO. 1 min per hour is more reasonable, especially if you can stack that where 5 min = 5 hours.
I also like it when the buffs do not leave when you log out. Let them roll over to your next login.
Additionally getting multiple buffs at the same time from different activities in the area is even better.
Finally, the game needs a system of teleportation where you can get to and from the "social buff" spot quickly.
The social spot should be somewhere people go to do stuff normally and by the way lets interact while im here. It cant be something that is so redundant that people start to resent it.
The key is to make natural hangout areas, that casual people can join in and not feel embarassed or harrassed.
That is a great post. You hit on some key points of importance. But I'll tell you, I'm having some misgivings. Players often spend 5 hours or more in a play session. Or they break it up throughout a day.
I'm thinking that maybe the benefits should last 24 RL hours, but maybe limited to specific abilities that the Character "studies" or "meditates on" while there.
For ideas of things that Players can do that help other players, and promote socializing and friendships in MMORPGs. I'm hoping for a good list, if we can come up with stuff new and old.
I can see what you are aiming for, but I'm going to be pedantic on terminology (as usual :P )
I want to distinguish between "socialising" and "teamwork". As you know they aren't the same thing, though there is a link of course.
Most of the suggestions in this thread are for things that will encourage teamwork. Increased interdependency and harder content requiring multiple people are great ways to increase the amount of teamwork needed in a game, but that won't necessarily promote socialising.
Actual abilities that promote socialising, and not just teamwork? Thats a tough one. I'm not certain a single ability could accomplish this, but if you expand to wider features then there is definitely some stuff. I think @brainy is probably on the right track.
My criteria for features that would promote socialising:
Has to be low intensity - if all my attention is on the content, I won't have any left for socialising.
Should be flexible on group size - we want the feature to bring people together and be convenient.
Should allow for some sort of self expression - can't become friends with a wall! Some sort of self-expression helps others get to know you
Needs to include downtime - can't socialise if I'm busy! a bit of downtime here and there will give me time to chat to others and actually socialise.
A reason to participate - no good creating a feature if there is no reason for players to engage!
Something like LotRO's music system fits the bill here. Requires minimal skill, can scale up and down in group size. Choice of music is a form of self-expression, especially when combined with the outfit system. Plenty of downtime to chat to bandmates or the audience.
The only thing missing from LotRO's music system was a reason to participate (beyond intrinsic value ofc). I don't think there were any quests leading into it, certainly no rewards for doing it.
This is the point I was going to make, anything that increases interaction is great, but socialising is as important as teamwork if not more so. The best way to do that in my eyes would be the equivalent of working of "fatigue" downtime at an inn, the likes of dancing and having a pint would slowly work of the downtime. Then some buffs from "minstrels" and that's all you would really need.
I remember an old blog post from Raph on social areas. I think he broke them down into "gathering points", "pit stops" and "the local tavern".
Pit stops were your repairs, auction house etc, and turned out to not be very social at all.
Gathering points were the old gates to a dungeon, or local quest hubs etc. Wherever was convenient for putting a group together. These were the most social areas in old school MMOs, because you had motivated players with little to do....except chat and hope to get a group! Sadly, these spaces have largely disappeared or lost their relevance thanks to layering and group finders. But, there are still some around!
The local tavern is where you go after you've had an adventure. For example, after my guild downed the Balrog in LotRO for the first time, we all went to the Prancing Pony for some ale. We sat around, drank digital booze and relived the fight from our own perspectives.
The local tavern is where your idea of fatigue would fit in, but I'm not certain if it would promote socialising. It's certainly enforced downtime, but in SWG the vast majority of players would just AFK in a cantina whilst their battle fatigue (??) healed and they got their buffs. I think if you could come up with some low intensity gameplay - involving both players - that removed the fatigue then would probably work. Drinking games, darts, card games, i don't know, something along those lines.
What I think worked well "back in the day" was the downtime between fights. You're looking to find the right balance between intensity and downtime. Theres a ton of psychological research into the subject, but you're looking at a ratio of 3:1 or 4:1 iirc.
for example, you solo a normal mob, fight takes 30 seconds, so you give 10 seconds downtime afterwards. Take on a 10 minute boss fight, give 2 or 3 minutes downtime afterwards.
When a game has been designed well, you have shorter waves of intensity/downtime between longer pattern, which are in turn between longer patterns. Essentially, this is the "pacing" of the game. Too intense with not enough downtime and players burnout. Not intense enough with too much downtime and players get bored.
You can then design social stuff that fits into each of those windows of time. A 10 second downtime? Ping off some emotes at nearby players. 1 minute downtime? Ask a question in /advice. 3 minutes downtime? Have a chat with your guildies. 10 minutes downtime? Back to the guild hall for some sparring!
As long as you can make a Rambo/Gandalf/The Rock character all rolled into one there is simply no reason to group or socialize.
The reason to group or socialize when you are not dependent on others is because you want to, the same as any other voluntary association.
Well in real life, some of the most social places are forced: school, work, sports practice ...
Many of those kids would choose not to go to those if they had another option, but while they happen to be doing those things they socialize. Its mainly because any activity that puts people together with the opportunity to socialize people will more likely do that.
I bet there was much less socializing during covid.
They force proximity in real life, and sometimes cooperation. They do not force socialization. Some will socialize because they like to, and others will do so out of what they feel is social obligation even if they don't enjoy it. Still others will choose not to socialize, and avoid any such interaction when possible and be generally uncomfortable at the least otherwise.
There was less socializing during Covid than then there could have been and more than there should have been. Regardless, variations in the sociability of people existed before that was a factor.
As long as you can make a Rambo/Gandalf/The Rock character all rolled into one there is simply no reason to group or socialize.
The reason to group or socialize when you are not dependent on others is because you want to, the same as any other voluntary association.
Sure but there are REASONS to want to. As in, I WANT others to join me because COMBINED we are stronger and better.
Go play your game where you are Gandalf,Rambo,TheRock and Superman all in one if thats what you like. You have plenty to choose from
But since this topic was titled "Helpful abilities that promote Socialization" I'll stick to what I said.
When you are strong enough on your own there is no wanting for power. What may remain is the wanting for companionship. Abilities and systems that promote socialization in MMORPGs remain applicable regardless of personal power. They just can't be based on force when characters are independently powerful enough on their own.
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First of all, "downtime" is a lousy way to do things. If players consider something as "downtime" then something's wrong.
I'm trying to find the means for players to interact, to mingle, in a natural way that's just "playing the game." This is basic socializing.
Having come from UO and not sticking in any other game, I saw this in UO but never again in any other game.
I didn't play EQ or AC, but I have a feeling there was a large degree of this "natural socializing" in those games too. That was because (IMO) both games made a better attempt at creating a full scale "open world" than later games. In EQ's case, the level grind and power gaps created problems for that sort of "World", adventuring and socializing.
WoW fixed those problems at the cost of giving up on the Open World concept, where socializing was delegated to just your steady Groups (if you could maintain them because of the forced division), and not open to the other players of the World at large.
So this is the basis of this topic, how do you design features that create this "natural socializing"?
Once upon a time....
There is going to be this huge group of people that are going to called this "forced" in some way. But the reality is, if you encourage people to be completely independent of other people then there will be less socializing.
The key is how can you add activities to the game that doesnt piss off the "solo only group". Or maybe just completely disregard these people and let them play another game. Although they do tend to be a pretty big base of players.
How big is the solo ONLY group vs the solo sometimes group, I dont know, wish I knew that answer.
It would be called forced because it is. Any time players need to interact it is by definition forced. That can be a reasonable requirement for some things. Not everything has to be accessible to solo players.
For example ESO has high difficulty content for groups, but also for solo players. The content is different, but at least nobody is left out in the cold.
Does it matter how may are solo only or sometimes? That which accommodates those that always solo will provide for those that sometimes do, making that content beneficial to everyone except those that play in groups only.
SWG was where I first heard of this being used, the players swore by it and removing it was just "ever more easy mode", that bane of MMORPG's.
Here is an outrageous cheat for you, how about all players start with a buff, you get that for just being online, but it goes down the longer you are in combat, that's when you need to go to an inn and get it refreshed. Obviously you can't just log off and get it back once you log in. So it is a buff that is really fatigue.
When I read a review in Computer Gaming World "magazine" they definitely did not speak kindly of SWG overall, gave it their infamous "Coaster of the Year" award. (As in use the DVD's for table protectors)
One area they decried was the medical system where players were waiting in long lines to see player controlled "doctor" to remove a debuff that built up over time I think.
Then there was the forced cantina system, players had to sit in them for some period of time to get some sort of bonus, might even have had to tip the performers.
Apparently the benefits from both were too big to ignore so a substantial amount of playing time was required (15 to 30 mins at least).
These two features completely turned me off from ever considering giving SWG a try, and come to think of it, was probably the start of what has become my almost full blown indifference of most things related to Star Wars.
They eventually walked it back big time which you said was ,"ever more easy mode"as but developers normally only make QOL improvements because enough of their current customers have been asking for them to do so.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you can do everything then there is obviously no need for other people.
DAoC had roles and benefits for each class and spec. You WANTED a bard in your groups for the speed and the fatigue regen. You WANTED a Warden for their Bubble spell. You WANTED a Mentalist for their "crack". So on and so forth. You needed to communicate on what you were pulling and what should be mezzed or slept or rooted.
8 person groups... the more you had the faster you could pull and the hared enemies you could fight. You WANTED to fill you group, even with strangers.
As long as you can make a Rambo/Gandalf/The Rock character all rolled into one there is simply no reason to group or socialize.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The dangers are clear, if people think they are being stopped from gaming as opposed to enjoying the down time they will become rebels...as it were.
Thinking to when we were talking about how relaxing resource gathering can be and how it was something were you could do something else but I chose not to, the same could be said for waiting in a queue. The difference is gathering makes you think you are gaming, queuing does not. So you would definitely not want a queue into that "inn" I was talking about.
Just spit balling here...
What if you have a base time requirement at either a Tavern, and for each aspect the Player participates in (Music, Food, Alcoholic Drink), that time gets reduced by half each time?
So, maybe a the Player hears Music from other Players for 4 minutes and fully recovers.
He eats Tavern Food cooked by other Players and now he fully recovers in only 2 minutes.
And if he also has a Drink he fully recovers in 1 minute.
(The time requirements here are debatable.)
Campsites:
The same for Campsites. I think it would be a bonus to socializing if Campsites can be made useful near Dungeons and Ruins, or anywhere in the Wilds.
Campsites can be like a makeshift town, where Players can sell and buy loot and supplies, and a Player or a Group can set them up just like a They can build a Tavern in a town.
Campsites should be a lesser version of Taverns, IMO. I think that will naturally happen because dealing solely with other Players and not having NPC shops to limit greed will cause some of that. Competition will limit greed too, if a Player doesn't have a monopoly on something bought and sold. So a Campsite that's well defined will be as good as "going to town." But towns will have ALL the amenities, where Campsites will have the needed adventuring amenities.
I disagree on "mini-games", I think.
That's a good way to get players to know other players a little. But they shouldn't be part of the requirements, just something to do while you're there.
Throwing "Knucklebones" (or Dice), Darts or Axes, etc. can add a little something to these "Worlds."
I'm not sure about the above comments. This needs a lot of thought, IMO.
Once upon a time....
The reason to group or socialize when you are not dependent on others is because you want to, the same as any other voluntary association.
As an example, Mentalists can be a form of Mage that also has many Mage abilities.
Once upon a time....
I seen this first hand in DAOC. They released a "bonedancer" class in an expansion that was a tank, healer, melee dps, mage dps all at the same time. This was the beginning of the end for grouping in Midgard. It also killed the social aspect of that realm.
Although grouping with an optimal 8 man group was still preferred especially for PVP. That Bonedancer class really screwed things up in PVE.
Its a case where people liked the class, but it was a slow poison to the overall game experience. Unintended consequences.
I think this is a delicate balance for sure. I agree the buffs cannot be mandatory, nor can they consume alot of your online playtime to get. 15 min for 1 hour buff is way to much IMO.
1 min per hour is more reasonable, especially if you can stack that where 5 min = 5 hours.
I also like it when the buffs do not leave when you log out. Let them roll over to your next login.
Additionally getting multiple buffs at the same time from different activities in the area is even better.
Finally, the game needs a system of teleportation where you can get to and from the "social buff" spot quickly.
The social spot should be somewhere people go to do stuff normally and by the way lets interact while im here. It cant be something that is so redundant that people start to resent it.
The key is to make natural hangout areas, that casual people can join in and not feel embarassed or harrassed.
Interesting this scenario. Because @Kyleran didnt actually say they didnt like the system, but implied they didnt like the concept of the system. If they would have played, they might have enjoyed the system who knows. Probably not, but without trying there is always uncertainty.
I never played SWG so cannot give an opinion on this system. Sounds like it went to far.
This is the problem with new systems. Some people wont even try it. Others will rebel because its different. You have to really nail a new system or get a alot of heat.
If this system was conceptually good but needed to be tweaked. Then who is to blame for its failure? Testers or Devs?
Go play your game where you are Gandalf,Rambo,TheRock and Superman all in one if thats what you like. You have plenty to choose from
But since this topic was titled "Helpful abilities that promote Socialization" I'll stick to what I said.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Currently Discord and other social media outlets are what people use for their socializing and games are not the main way to socialize. More like an outlet to just game while watching TV shows or chatting with others and mindlessly farming or grinding.
Gaming isn't what it was in 2000. Lot of the priorities have shifted and maintaining social media is a more prevalent concern among gamers and those that stream have totally different considerations. The old methods are not going to be effective in this landscape and people will find ways to circumvent them. They will end up as a white albatross on our necks.
People do not group today because there is no benefit to it. They can be Kyleran's Black Adam and plow through anything.
Which is fine.. if you like that. There are countless games that let you do that. The tradeoff is that you have little "group" experiences in those MMOs and when you do they are limited to some kind of DungeonFinder speed run where you don't even say 5 words.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
or a group would park a buffer alt at the keep and head out.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well in real life, some of the most social places are forced: school, work, sports practice ...
Many of those kids would choose not to go to those if they had another option, but while they happen to be doing those things they socialize. Its mainly because any activity that puts people together with the opportunity to socialize people will more likely do that.
I bet there was much less socializing during covid.
But I'll tell you, I'm having some misgivings. Players often spend 5 hours or more in a play session. Or they break it up throughout a day.
I'm thinking that maybe the benefits should last 24 RL hours, but maybe limited to specific abilities that the Character "studies" or "meditates on" while there.
Once upon a time....
They force proximity in real life, and sometimes cooperation. They do not force socialization. Some will socialize because they like to, and others will do so out of what they feel is social obligation even if they don't enjoy it. Still others will choose not to socialize, and avoid any such interaction when possible and be generally uncomfortable at the least otherwise.
There was less socializing during Covid than then there could have been and more than there should have been. Regardless, variations in the sociability of people existed before that was a factor.
When you are strong enough on your own there is no wanting for power. What may remain is the wanting for companionship. Abilities and systems that promote socialization in MMORPGs remain applicable regardless of personal power. They just can't be based on force when characters are independently powerful enough on their own.