Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
P2W. Isn't that defined by the goals of the players?
If a player plays a game to "collect" items, be it outfits, armor or weapons, isn't any cash shop that helps them achieve this goal "pay to win" for them? The mounts you mentioned may have been "P2W" for players whose goal was to collect mounts.
Cash shop items can also help crafting players to "win", yet mean little to non-crafting players. Maybe a "double speed" mining or chopping potion
For me, the most basic "P2W" item in a cash shop is an XP potion, as it seems to accelerate every play style be it PvE or PvP. I almost added in "Double XP Weekends", but players don't really pay for those in a cash shop
PS: What many of us players often forget is that this extra money does NOT go to developers and artists who create the games, but rather to "business suits and boards", most of whom don't even play games.
I hope my rambling here wasn't too incoherent
Sorta.
The Profits do go back to the Dev Team/Studio in the form of approved spending, this allowing them to give overtime to some staff, or perhaps hiring additional staff, as well as getting better software, new offices, better computers, and other upgrades.
How well these help the employees sits more with the direct supervisor/director of that studio, then the top suits.
But, overall, in the most simple form, the more profitable a game becomes, the more money gets given to the studio, to keep improving the product to keep making more money.
This is not always the case (Like Blizzard having a banner year and then firing a bunch of staff) but often the profits (or lack thereof) do direct affect the upcoming budgets for a studio, and thus directly affect the staff that works there.
Just wanted to point that out, yes, the money you spend does in fact directly affect the studio and thus yes, it does directly affect the artiest and programmers, and the like, in some cases, it just ensures they have a job to come back to tomorrow.
Kind of. The more money a game makes insures that other games can be made and keep employees employed. Unless a developer or artist gets some kind of "commission" or stock option bonus, the more a game makes doesn't really immediately impact them. I'm thinking more of the hourly wage earners. Stock holders may get a better dividend as "managers" may get bonus based on profits, but the actual workers doing the job don't see much of that. Maybe a bigger Christmas Bonus? lol
Scot was right:
When gaming took off, everyone (business-wise) wanted a piece of it. That brought "the corporate mindset" into the "hobby." That mindset is good for business but bad for hobbies. It stifles creativity and risk-taking, even though many business made their impact and money on "some NEW idea" that set them above the competition
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
P2W. Isn't that defined by the goals of the players?
If a player plays a game to "collect" items, be it outfits, armor or weapons, isn't any cash shop that helps them achieve this goal "pay to win" for them? The mounts you mentioned may have been "P2W" for players whose goal was to collect mounts.
Cash shop items can also help crafting players to "win", yet mean little to non-crafting players. Maybe a "double speed" mining or chopping potion
For me, the most basic "P2W" item in a cash shop is an XP potion, as it seems to accelerate every play style be it PvE or PvP. I almost added in "Double XP Weekends", but players don't really pay for those in a cash shop
I can still find it hilarious ironic that selling direct levels is just embraces and selling a cosmetic is met with harsh criticism and called P2W.
I kinda bet that is why trying to Science gaming, fails and for the most part it's still very much in the experimental/artistic stage.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
P2W. Isn't that defined by the goals of the players?
If a player plays a game to "collect" items, be it outfits, armor or weapons, isn't any cash shop that helps them achieve this goal "pay to win" for them? The mounts you mentioned may have been "P2W" for players whose goal was to collect mounts.
Cash shop items can also help crafting players to "win", yet mean little to non-crafting players. Maybe a "double speed" mining or chopping potion
For me, the most basic "P2W" item in a cash shop is an XP potion, as it seems to accelerate every play style be it PvE or PvP. I almost added in "Double XP Weekends", but players don't really pay for those in a cash shop
I can still find it hilarious ironic that selling direct levels is just embraces and selling a cosmetic is met with harsh criticism and called P2W.
I kinda bet that is why trying to Science gaming, fails and for the most part it's still very much in the experimental/artistic stage.
I think people have been conditioned over the years to just see levels as a gate more so than a core element of a game, especially since many elements of mmorpgs advertise the 'endgame' more so than anything else. Even in wow classic, tbc boosts were an 'uproar' but now are even seen as expected in wotlkc. And Blizzard just advertises raids when you see ads about classic, so new people come in thinking previous content doesn't matter as long as they get to the end quickly. Counter to what many wanted for classic but it is what it is.
I can still find it hilarious ironic that selling direct levels is just embraces and selling a cosmetic is met with harsh criticism and called P2W.
I kinda bet that is why trying to Science gaming, fails and for the most part it's still very much in the experimental/artistic stage.
Just because something is called science doesn't mean that it's actually science. That's just not how science works.
A lot of people use "science" to mean their own personal opinion on a matter in an attempt to make it sound more authoritative. Sometimes they use "science says" to mean "I have no idea of this is true, but I hope it is". Just because we'd like to know something doesn't necessarily mean that science has or even can find the answer. And even if science does know the answer, it often isn't what people want to be true. Economics is sometimes called the "dismal science" because most of what it knows is things that people wish not to be true.
A publisher that attempted to pay for a bunch of scientific research on what will make their games better or more profitable would probably end up paying a bunch of money to get some charlatans to tell them that whatever the studio wanted to do in the first place is the correct, scientific approach. Ambiguous data can readily be manipulated to say just about whatever you want to say, and a considerable chunk of the new "science" out there is really just an exercise in doing that.
That's not all that science is, of course. A whole lot of scientific research has made a huge difference in helping us to better understand the universe in which we live, and that has made our lives better in many ways. But there's a lot of garbage mixed in, and people who don't have a good statistical background typically can't tell the difference. And of course that describes most all science journalists in mass media.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
P2W. Isn't that defined by the goals of the players?
If a player plays a game to "collect" items, be it outfits, armor or weapons, isn't any cash shop that helps them achieve this goal "pay to win" for them? The mounts you mentioned may have been "P2W" for players whose goal was to collect mounts.
Cash shop items can also help crafting players to "win", yet mean little to non-crafting players. Maybe a "double speed" mining or chopping potion
For me, the most basic "P2W" item in a cash shop is an XP potion, as it seems to accelerate every play style be it PvE or PvP. I almost added in "Double XP Weekends", but players don't really pay for those in a cash shop
I can still find it hilarious ironic that selling direct levels is just embraces and selling a cosmetic is met with harsh criticism and called P2W.
I kinda bet that is why trying to Science gaming, fails and for the most part it's still very much in the experimental/artistic stage.
It depend on the game and details. For most games with easy achievable level cap, I dont' think anyone cares about xp potions. But for games with infinite levels which goes on forever, it's essentially selling powers.
It reminds me of our another discussion about best gear. The reason why it never bothers me about raiders getting best gear is because no one actually get best gear. By the time raider get the best gear the next expansion is already out and you can get better gear by doing a 5 minutes quest. Best gear is just a never ending chase which never ends.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
That depends entirely on what you consider "win." I'm glad there are a lot of other gamers out there who see things the way I do.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
Yes, but, the irony is,
They sell a purely cosmetic item, and people lose their shit.
They sell direct character advancement, and no one bats eye on it.
I could not make this up if I tried.
Reality is, I think someone summed it up best.
"P2W is when the company sells something I want, but don't want to pay for it"
Which pretty much makes the term totally worthless.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
That depends entirely on what you consider "win." I'm glad there are a lot of other gamers out there who see things the way I do.
Not really. In the context of a game for something to be "win" it must provide game play advantage. That which doesn't is game neutral.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
Yes, but, the irony is,
They sell a purely cosmetic item, and people lose their shit.
They sell direct character advancement, and no one bats eye on it.
I could not make this up if I tried.
Reality is, I think someone summed it up best.
"P2W is when the company sells something I want, but don't want to pay for it"
Which pretty much makes the term totally worthless.
The P2W term isn't worthless. It's just routinely misapplied such that one can't consider declarations of such true simply from the making of them. One has to determine for themselves if they feel the claim has merit.
It does sound strange at face value that cosmetics would cause such a great stir compared to level boosting, but from what I've heard cosmetics are considered pretty important by many GW2 players because once one is geared out there is essentially little else to chase after. If so it makes sense they would be particularly sensitive to anything related to that.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
That depends entirely on what you consider "win." I'm glad there are a lot of other gamers out there who see things the way I do.
Not really. In the context of a game for something to be "win" it must provide game play advantage. That which doesn't is game neutral.
What makes you say that? Cosmetic things are often wanted by players. If you had to play for them, and especially if it would be considered a "rare" thing to obtain because of game lore (antiquities perhaps), then offering them up for cash is definitely PtW.
Worse, there is a great deal of game play that's lost through CSing cosmetics. Those things could be made by players, bought and sold by players for in-game coin, and collected if somewhat rare or otherwise hard to obtain or make-> such as rare dye colors or many other means.
How 'bout those colorful mounts? Tamers and explorers lose out on game play and in-game rewards, how is that not PtW when players just buy them?
Amaranthar said: , how is that not PtW when players just buy them?
Because it offers you no tangible advantage against another player, just because you look like an incandescent peacock, does not mean you beat anyone.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
Yes, but, the irony is,
They sell a purely cosmetic item, and people lose their shit.
They sell direct character advancement, and no one bats eye on it.
I could not make this up if I tried.
Reality is, I think someone summed it up best.
"P2W is when the company sells something I want, but don't want to pay for it"
Which pretty much makes the term totally worthless.
The P2W term isn't worthless. It's just routinely misapplied such that one can't consider declarations of such true simply from the making of them. One has to determine for themselves if they feel the claim has merit.
It does sound strange at face value that cosmetics would cause such a great stir compared to level boosting, but from what I've heard cosmetics are considered pretty important by many GW2 players because once one is geared out there is essentially little else to chase after. If so it makes sense they would be particularly sensitive to anything related to that.
No, really, it boiled down to the fact they didn't want to spend money on the skins.
They were high priced, no doubt, to the tune of 20 dollars worth of gems to get a single skin, and IIRC, something like 100 dollars in gems to get the whole pack of skins, placing them clean out of the realm of being able to buy them with gold.
So in that case, they were in fact, in every sense of the word, calling it P2W, simply because they didn't want to pay for it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Amaranthar said: , how is that not PtW when players just buy them?
Because it offers you no tangible advantage against another player, just because you look like an incandescent peacock, does not mean you beat anyone.
If that's all you play for, well, that's your right, but you are missing a lot of what makes for an MMORPG. "Worldliness." Lookin' good in the neighborhood. Hell, if they weren't in a cash shop, they could add advantage, in reasonable ways.
In UO they had dyes for clothing, and they added a sort of hard, sort of tedious to get really good looking black and a white. Lots of players wanted them. When I ran short of coin I made the runs and grew the plants and harvested them and made these dyes (took about 5 RL days, with a few hours of work overall). They sold for really good coin on my vendor, and others came by regularly to unload my stock. That gave me "cred." lol
Players have always complained, often without making much sense to other members of the community. We increasingly live in a culture that lives to complain, so players are going to complain even more. The importance of cheap cosmetics is an area that I find hard to grasp.
To me cosmetics are ideal for getting players to splash in a cash shop, they are not P2W. So I find it hard to understand what the problem is with paying for an outfit. This idea is not the same as people who expect a MMO to be virtually free, who expect the whales to be paying for them. But if a MMO is not going to be sub and expansion based, then cosmetics could be the answer. I know that's anathema to some players, but what other options are there?
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
That depends entirely on what you consider "win." I'm glad there are a lot of other gamers out there who see things the way I do.
Not really. In the context of a game for something to be "win" it must provide game play advantage. That which doesn't is game neutral.
What makes you say that? Cosmetic things are often wanted by players. If you had to play for them, and especially if it would be considered a "rare" thing to obtain because of game lore (antiquities perhaps), then offering them up for cash is definitely PtW.
Worse, there is a great deal of game play that's lost through CSing cosmetics. Those things could be made by players, bought and sold by players for in-game coin, and collected if somewhat rare or otherwise hard to obtain or make-> such as rare dye colors or many other means.
How 'bout those colorful mounts? Tamers and explorers lose out on game play and in-game rewards, how is that not PtW when players just buy them?
I say it because it is true.
That a game neutral cosmetic is rare doesn't provide in game advantage. That a game neutral thing is lore relevant doesn't provide in game advantage. The desire for something in itself does not provide in game advantage to that thing beyond what it inherently possesses.
While the ability to craft game neutral cosmetics may give players something to do, the resulting cosmetics still do not provide in game advantage.
If the stats of a mount are the same regardless of appearance breeding them to produce a certain look may give players something to do, but the resulting mount will still not provide in game advantage.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
Yes, but, the irony is,
They sell a purely cosmetic item, and people lose their shit.
They sell direct character advancement, and no one bats eye on it.
I could not make this up if I tried.
Reality is, I think someone summed it up best.
"P2W is when the company sells something I want, but don't want to pay for it"
Which pretty much makes the term totally worthless.
The P2W term isn't worthless. It's just routinely misapplied such that one can't consider declarations of such true simply from the making of them. One has to determine for themselves if they feel the claim has merit.
It does sound strange at face value that cosmetics would cause such a great stir compared to level boosting, but from what I've heard cosmetics are considered pretty important by many GW2 players because once one is geared out there is essentially little else to chase after. If so it makes sense they would be particularly sensitive to anything related to that.
No, really, it boiled down to the fact they didn't want to spend money on the skins.
They were high priced, no doubt, to the tune of 20 dollars worth of gems to get a single skin, and IIRC, something like 100 dollars in gems to get the whole pack of skins, placing them clean out of the realm of being able to buy them with gold.
So in that case, they were in fact, in every sense of the word, calling it P2W, simply because they didn't want to pay for it.
Yes, in this case the P2W term was entirely misapplied. People just didn't want to pay the price, as you say.
In the Atelier games you can switch the clothing on the girls mainly except for Logy who was the sole male in the series, you can switch some outfits for him too. The clothing were all very iconic in my opinion. Even Ryza with her shorts were immediately recognizable. Ryza gets a lot of attention on her thighs but I think that each alchemist's original outfit is always the best.
The reason is all the little pouches and their belts where they hold the bombs, potions, charms and other items are usually only fully displayed in the original costume. Koei Tecmo mints on these outfits additions and sometimes they are sold just for outfits. The games go on discount very seldom and they are often only 10-20 % off even after being out for years. They do not have any competition in this particular genre they have carved out so I guess people are at their mercy as far as price goes.
I personally like the original outfits the best. I do in my 100 hour runs switch out an outfit or two out but I would not really spend extra to buy just an outfit for them. If the DLC has it then it is something I get for the DLC.
I do think considering the fact that I bought a couple of outfits in Path of Exile to support the developers that it is a very much better than the P2W outfits. I have spent more than thousand hours on POE so rewarding them was a no brainer.
In the Atelier games you can switch the clothing on the girls mainly except for Logy who was the sole male in the series, you can switch some outfits for him too. The clothing were all very iconic in my opinion. Even Ryza with her shorts were immediately recognizable. Ryza gets a lot of attention on her thighs but I think that each alchemist's original outfit is always the best.
The reason is all the little pouches and their belts where they hold the bombs, potions, charms and other items are usually only fully displayed in the original costume. Koei Tecmo mints on these outfits additions and sometimes they are sold just for outfits. The games go on discount very seldom and they are often only 10-20 % off even after being out for years. They do not have any competition in this particular genre they have carved out so I guess people are at their mercy as far as price goes.
I personally like the original outfits the best. I do in my 100 hour runs switch out an outfit or two out but I would not really spend extra to buy just an outfit for them. If the DLC has it then it is something I get for the DLC.
I do think considering the fact that I bought a couple of outfits in Path of Exile to support the developers that it is a very much better than the P2W outfits. I have spent more than thousand hours on POE so rewarding them was a no brainer.
An 100 hour cosmetics run, anyone out there still think studios could not fund a MMO purely through cosmetics? That's hardcore!
Oh dear you misunderstood. I meant I would switch out my outfit when I play. I usually take about 100 hours to complete an Atelier game. The outfits are obtained in the story like in Sophie one of her friends decide to make her a new outfit.
This is her original outfit. See the bag it holds all her alchemy stuff. That is Oskar and he is a badass and uses a shovel as a weapon.
Pay to win benefits tremendously from being massively multiplayer, even if the "multiplayer" aspect of the game is just leaderboards and auto-battling PVP. The whales who are willing to pay to win predominantly want to have other players to beat. They don't just want to beat an AI. The latter is easy to do just by picking an easier game.
Eh...
I could see a lot of Whales (or players in general) paying for direct power even in a purely PvE game.
I mean think about it.
If you made a PvE game, and sold say, a +1 to all stats in the store, who loses from this? In reality, no one, because they are not fighting each other.
But I could see a lot of people considering buy that, if they felt that their character was not strong enough, and wanted that little bit more, to make the encounters a little easier.
As I see it, P2W really only exists in PvP games, because only in PvP games, can one player directly beat another, otherwise, what are you crying about, just because they have more power than you, does not stop you from doing that content and getting the same loot as them.
P2W very much exists in PvE, either to get you to a level where you do PvP or to take part in end game play like raids. In a PvE game with no competitive gameplay what so ever then yes it does not exist. Though those who put great value in outfits might still disagree with both of us.
Yah, I still remember when players in GW2 were calling mount skins P2W, Not mounts, not special abilities, just purely cosmetic skins, they were calling that P2W, and really upset about it too.
At the same time, the same company, and same group of players, GW2 gives out 80 Level boosts, which is directly giving away raw character power, and not peep about how this might be remotely P2W.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
That depends entirely on what you consider "win." I'm glad there are a lot of other gamers out there who see things the way I do.
Not really. In the context of a game for something to be "win" it must provide game play advantage. That which doesn't is game neutral.
What makes you say that? Cosmetic things are often wanted by players. If you had to play for them, and especially if it would be considered a "rare" thing to obtain because of game lore (antiquities perhaps), then offering them up for cash is definitely PtW.
Worse, there is a great deal of game play that's lost through CSing cosmetics. Those things could be made by players, bought and sold by players for in-game coin, and collected if somewhat rare or otherwise hard to obtain or make-> such as rare dye colors or many other means.
How 'bout those colorful mounts? Tamers and explorers lose out on game play and in-game rewards, how is that not PtW when players just buy them?
I say it because it is true.
That a game neutral cosmetic is rare doesn't provide in game advantage. That a game neutral thing is lore relevant doesn't provide in game advantage. The desire for something in itself does not provide in game advantage to that thing beyond what it inherently possesses.
While the ability to craft game neutral cosmetics may give players something to do, the resulting cosmetics still do not provide in game advantage.
If the stats of a mount are the same regardless of appearance breeding them to produce a certain look may give players something to do, but the resulting mount will still not provide in game advantage.
No in game advantage, no "win" to be had.
As I see it, Cosmetics serve only 2 purposes.
The first: which is the most well known purpose, is to display the possession of a unique and often very powerful item. Often the most powerful or hard to acquire armors and weapons in old school MMO's would have unique and special skins to go with them.
For example, In EQ: Armor colors were often linked to being special, like Golden Efreeti Boots were for the longest time, the only golden colored plate boots in the game, so if you saw a player with golden plate boots on, you knew they were GEB's.
In DDO: The Sword of Shadows has a very unique skin, so if you would know if someone equipped that weapon.
So, cosmetics were a means to display achievement.
The Second: is just for dress up. This provides no real advantage. They serve no purpose other then to give your character a desired look.
Now, a lot of modern games do provide both.
IE: GW2 has Legendary Weapons with unique skins and effects, to show off someone's effort to get it, and one could say that Mount Skins can be a way to show off someone's wealth. But, if the intent is to show off wealth through a skin, that means you need to actually pay for it, getting it for free would defeat it as a symbol of wealth.
Anyway, after all these words, I totally agree with you, in all cases, these cosmetics do not provide any advantage, so there is no Win Mechanic, you do not defeat anyone with your cosmetic.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Oh dear you misunderstood. I meant I would switch out my outfit when I play. I usually take about 100 hours to complete an Atelier game. The outfits are obtained in the story like in Sophie one of her friends decide to make her a new outfit.
This is her original outfit. See the bag it holds all her alchemy stuff. That is Oskar and he is a badass and uses a shovel as a weapon.
This is the one her friend makes for her.
This Escha and Logy.
His other outfit. You can remove the ears lol.
You spent a hundred hours playing it and only want to tell us about the outfits, even posting pictures. So what I said stands, some players are obsessed with outfits, you run a MMO on that money.
Oh dear you misunderstood. I meant I would switch out my outfit when I play. I usually take about 100 hours to complete an Atelier game. The outfits are obtained in the story like in Sophie one of her friends decide to make her a new outfit.
This is her original outfit. See the bag it holds all her alchemy stuff. That is Oskar and he is a badass and uses a shovel as a weapon.
This is the one her friend makes for her.
This Escha and Logy.
His other outfit. You can remove the ears lol.
You spent a hundred hours playing it and only want to tell us about the outfits, even posting pictures. So what I said stands, some players are obsessed with outfits, you run a MMO on that money.
The topic was about outfits and that was why I highlighted it.
The combat in Atelier Shallie was one of the best. Although it was turn based you can include the members at the back that switch places with the party members in front to attack and assist in defense. It was based on the older Mana Khemia games.
The alchemy in Sophie was a lot of fun in that you can flip the cauldron in different directions and you have only one minute to decide or your fail in the crafting.
Atelier Ryza had ATB system which I was not fond of since it reduced the strategy of choosing the right item that you spent time crafting in the heat of battle whether it be buff, debuff or damage.
Some bosses will become harder in the games if you do not kill them in time. I failed a lot of times and it was game over.
The topic was about outfits and that was why I highlighted it.
The combat in Atelier Shallie was one of the best. Although it was turn based you can include the members at the back that switch place with the party members in front to attack and assist in defense. It was based on the older Mana Khemia games.
The alchemy in Sophie was a lot of fun in that you can flip the cauldron in different directions and you have only one minute to decide or your fail in the crafting.
I was kidding I am sure you enjoyed it for more than outfits.
While cosmetics aren't play to win they are pay for direct content. I hate the concept because I feel like they could be incorporated into gameplay. I'd rather player pay for a higher chance to get this in gameplay than to have something sold directly.
Comments
Kind of. The more money a game makes insures that other games can be made and keep employees employed. Unless a developer or artist gets some kind of "commission" or stock option bonus, the more a game makes doesn't really immediately impact them. I'm thinking more of the hourly wage earners. Stock holders may get a better dividend as "managers" may get bonus based on profits, but the actual workers doing the job don't see much of that. Maybe a bigger Christmas Bonus? lol
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I kinda bet that is why trying to Science gaming, fails and for the most part it's still very much in the experimental/artistic stage.
I think people have been conditioned over the years to just see levels as a gate more so than a core element of a game, especially since many elements of mmorpgs advertise the 'endgame' more so than anything else. Even in wow classic, tbc boosts were an 'uproar' but now are even seen as expected in wotlkc. And Blizzard just advertises raids when you see ads about classic, so new people come in thinking previous content doesn't matter as long as they get to the end quickly. Counter to what many wanted for classic but it is what it is.
A lot of people use "science" to mean their own personal opinion on a matter in an attempt to make it sound more authoritative. Sometimes they use "science says" to mean "I have no idea of this is true, but I hope it is". Just because we'd like to know something doesn't necessarily mean that science has or even can find the answer. And even if science does know the answer, it often isn't what people want to be true. Economics is sometimes called the "dismal science" because most of what it knows is things that people wish not to be true.
A publisher that attempted to pay for a bunch of scientific research on what will make their games better or more profitable would probably end up paying a bunch of money to get some charlatans to tell them that whatever the studio wanted to do in the first place is the correct, scientific approach. Ambiguous data can readily be manipulated to say just about whatever you want to say, and a considerable chunk of the new "science" out there is really just an exercise in doing that.
That's not all that science is, of course. A whole lot of scientific research has made a huge difference in helping us to better understand the universe in which we live, and that has made our lives better in many ways. But there's a lot of garbage mixed in, and people who don't have a good statistical background typically can't tell the difference. And of course that describes most all science journalists in mass media.
It depend on the game and details. For most games with easy achievable level cap, I dont' think anyone cares about xp potions. But for games with infinite levels which goes on forever, it's essentially selling powers.
It reminds me of our another discussion about best gear. The reason why it never bothers me about raiders getting best gear is because no one actually get best gear. By the time raider get the best gear the next expansion is already out and you can get better gear by doing a 5 minutes quest. Best gear is just a never ending chase which never ends.
People may have called it that, but it isn't P2W at all. One gets no in game advantage from a mount functionally identical regardless of aesthetic.
A level boost is more so, but really, how long does it take to get to level 80 in GW2. The levels zip by pretty fast if I recall correctly. I'm not surprised people don't complain about it.
I'm glad there are a lot of other gamers out there who see things the way I do.
Once upon a time....
They sell a purely cosmetic item, and people lose their shit.
They sell direct character advancement, and no one bats eye on it.
I could not make this up if I tried.
Reality is, I think someone summed it up best.
"P2W is when the company sells something I want, but don't want to pay for it"
Which pretty much makes the term totally worthless.
Not really. In the context of a game for something to be "win" it must provide game play advantage. That which doesn't is game neutral.
The P2W term isn't worthless. It's just routinely misapplied such that one can't consider declarations of such true simply from the making of them. One has to determine for themselves if they feel the claim has merit.
It does sound strange at face value that cosmetics would cause such a great stir compared to level boosting, but from what I've heard cosmetics are considered pretty important by many GW2 players because once one is geared out there is essentially little else to chase after. If so it makes sense they would be particularly sensitive to anything related to that.
Worse, there is a great deal of game play that's lost through CSing cosmetics. Those things could be made by players, bought and sold by players for in-game coin, and collected if somewhat rare or otherwise hard to obtain or make-> such as rare dye colors or many other means.
How 'bout those colorful mounts? Tamers and explorers lose out on game play and in-game rewards, how is that not PtW when players just buy them?
Once upon a time....
They were high priced, no doubt, to the tune of 20 dollars worth of gems to get a single skin, and IIRC, something like 100 dollars in gems to get the whole pack of skins, placing them clean out of the realm of being able to buy them with gold.
So in that case, they were in fact, in every sense of the word, calling it P2W, simply because they didn't want to pay for it.
In UO they had dyes for clothing, and they added a sort of hard, sort of tedious to get really good looking black and a white.
Lots of players wanted them. When I ran short of coin I made the runs and grew the plants and harvested them and made these dyes (took about 5 RL days, with a few hours of work overall). They sold for really good coin on my vendor, and others came by regularly to unload my stock.
That gave me "cred." lol
Once upon a time....
To me cosmetics are ideal for getting players to splash in a cash shop, they are not P2W. So I find it hard to understand what the problem is with paying for an outfit. This idea is not the same as people who expect a MMO to be virtually free, who expect the whales to be paying for them. But if a MMO is not going to be sub and expansion based, then cosmetics could be the answer. I know that's anathema to some players, but what other options are there?
I say it because it is true.
That a game neutral cosmetic is rare doesn't provide in game advantage. That a game neutral thing is lore relevant doesn't provide in game advantage. The desire for something in itself does not provide in game advantage to that thing beyond what it inherently possesses.
While the ability to craft game neutral cosmetics may give players something to do, the resulting cosmetics still do not provide in game advantage.
If the stats of a mount are the same regardless of appearance breeding them to produce a certain look may give players something to do, but the resulting mount will still not provide in game advantage.
No in game advantage, no "win" to be had.
Yes, in this case the P2W term was entirely misapplied. People just didn't want to pay the price, as you say.
The reason is all the little pouches and their belts where they hold the bombs, potions, charms and other items are usually only fully displayed in the original costume. Koei Tecmo mints on these outfits additions and sometimes they are sold just for outfits. The games go on discount very seldom and they are often only 10-20 % off even after being out for years. They do not have any competition in this particular genre they have carved out so I guess people are at their mercy as far as price goes.
I personally like the original outfits the best. I do in my 100 hour runs switch out an outfit or two out but I would not really spend extra to buy just an outfit for them. If the DLC has it then it is something I get for the DLC.
I do think considering the fact that I bought a couple of outfits in Path of Exile to support the developers that it is a very much better than the P2W outfits. I have spent more than thousand hours on POE so rewarding them was a no brainer.
This is her original outfit. See the bag it holds all her alchemy stuff. That is Oskar and he is a badass and uses a shovel as a weapon.
This is the one her friend makes for her.
This Escha and Logy.
His other outfit. You can remove the ears lol.
The first: which is the most well known purpose, is to display the possession of a unique and often very powerful item. Often the most powerful or hard to acquire armors and weapons in old school MMO's would have unique and special skins to go with them.
For example, In EQ: Armor colors were often linked to being special, like Golden Efreeti Boots were for the longest time, the only golden colored plate boots in the game, so if you saw a player with golden plate boots on, you knew they were GEB's.
In DDO: The Sword of Shadows has a very unique skin, so if you would know if someone equipped that weapon.
So, cosmetics were a means to display achievement.
The Second: is just for dress up. This provides no real advantage. They serve no purpose other then to give your character a desired look.
Now, a lot of modern games do provide both.
IE: GW2 has Legendary Weapons with unique skins and effects, to show off someone's effort to get it, and one could say that Mount Skins can be a way to show off someone's wealth. But, if the intent is to show off wealth through a skin, that means you need to actually pay for it, getting it for free would defeat it as a symbol of wealth.
Anyway, after all these words, I totally agree with you, in all cases, these cosmetics do not provide any advantage, so there is no Win Mechanic, you do not defeat anyone with your cosmetic.
The combat in Atelier Shallie was one of the best. Although it was turn based you can include the members at the back that switch places with the party members in front to attack and assist in defense. It was based on the older Mana Khemia games.
The alchemy in Sophie was a lot of fun in that you can flip the cauldron in different directions and you have only one minute to decide or your fail in the crafting.
Atelier Ryza had ATB system which I was not fond of since it reduced the strategy of choosing the right item that you spent time crafting in the heat of battle whether it be buff, debuff or damage.
Some bosses will become harder in the games if you do not kill them in time. I failed a lot of times and it was game over.