Unless it allows me to Swipe my CC, and Boot Stomp the Shit out of Someone who is otherwise far my superior in every way in PvP, it's not P2W.
So you're saying that using a chip reader instead of swiping credit cards makes games not pay to win? That's good to know. It sounds like pay to win is on the way out, then, as chip readers are a lot more secure than swiping a card.
Unless it allows me to Swipe my CC, and Boot Stomp the Shit out of Someone who is otherwise far my superior in every way in PvP, it's not P2W.
So you're saying that using a chip reader instead of swiping credit cards makes games not pay to win? That's good to know. It sounds like pay to win is on the way out, then, as chip readers are a lot more secure than swiping a card.
TBF, I can't shove my CC into my computer yet for it to read the chip.. I might change my stand when I am able to do that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Unless it allows me to Swipe my CC, and Boot Stomp the Shit out of Someone who is otherwise far my superior in every way in PvP, it's not P2W.
So you're saying that using a chip reader instead of swiping credit cards makes games not pay to win? That's good to know. It sounds like pay to win is on the way out, then, as chip readers are a lot more secure than swiping a card.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Unless it allows me to Swipe my CC, and Boot Stomp the Shit out of Someone who is otherwise far my superior in every way in PvP, it's not P2W.
So you're saying that using a chip reader instead of swiping credit cards makes games not pay to win? That's good to know. It sounds like pay to win is on the way out, then, as chip readers are a lot more secure than swiping a card.
TBF, I can't shove my CC into my computer yet for it to read the chip.. I might change my stand when I am able to do that.
As you walk into the room, a little green light goes on, signifying that the little BB-sized implant in your arm has identified you. You are now free to start playing games, or banking, or both since these days games are more like banking.
Unless it allows me to Swipe my CC, and Boot Stomp the Shit out of Someone who is otherwise far my superior in every way in PvP, it's not P2W.
So you're saying that using a chip reader instead of swiping credit cards makes games not pay to win? That's good to know. It sounds like pay to win is on the way out, then, as chip readers are a lot more secure than swiping a card.
TBF, I can't shove my CC into my computer yet for it to read the chip.. I might change my stand when I am able to do that.
As you walk into the room, a little green light goes on, signifying that the little BB-sized implant in your arm has identified you. You are now free to start playing games, or banking, or both since these days games are more like banking.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMOs need funding after they launch, to me a sub and costumes are the fairest way. ESO shows what can be achieved but I think they may have some P2W in the store now, ages since we discussed that.
Like what, for example?
You tell me, I am thinking back to a conversation a couple of years back, potions for increasing stamina etc, slots and bigger bags. Anything beyond cosmetics and paying for new zones can be seen as P2W. But I can remember the conclusion was that P2W was only marginal in ESO.
How am I supposed to tell you what you feel to be P2W in the ESO store? That's a curious expectation.
There are very few things exclusive to the cash shop, and the vast majority that are have in game alternatives.
Optional account services are limited to the cash shop, such as extra character slots, name changes, and so forth. These typically cost extra so I don't see them an issue.
You can get potions through the shop. Superior potions can be crafted in game. You can expand character and bank inventory through the shop, but can also do the same with gold earned in game.
You can accelerate the development of your character's riding skills in the cash shop, but can also do the same over time with gold earned in play. Either way, the character's maximum riding skill potential is the same.
There are cosmetics exclusive to the shop, as well as dyes exclusively for them. However, every piece of gear you earn in play are also cosmetics with dyes for them being earned through in game achievements. There are crafting patterns exclusive to the store, but also many crafting patterns earned through play and game events.
Perhaps what would be most bothersome to many is Crown Crates, their version of loot boxes. There are cosmetics there not available through play that purchasers of them may randomly get. However, not long ago Seals of Endeavour were added to the game, earned from doing daily and weekly tasks, that can be used to directly buy cosmetics found in these crates, bypassing the monetary cost and randomness of them. I routinely earn the seals though I never bother looking up their conditions, so they are earned easily without active intent.
ESO seems pretty decent to me overall, which is why I wondered what you specific examples of P2W slipping in you had.
ESO is decent, though I would caution using the ability to earn things in-game as a reason for such.
There were a couple instances I recall where new features (such as furnishing crafting iirc) technically could be grinded in-game *or* expedited via the cash shop. Only, the grind was not what one would call reasonable. To their credit, Zenimax adjusted the grind I believe.
However, merely having an equivalent path in-game can still leave the player with an incredibly tedious and/or time-consuming experience, depending upon the specific implementation.
Seeing as the discussion was within the context of P2W creeping into the ESO shop, my evaluation of pretty decent can't be based on other than the ability to get things through play or otherwise having similar in game features.
MMORPGs are grind heavy games out of need. Grind provides purpose to play after the latest expansion is rampaged through. Purpose maintains interest and interest maintains players. It is necessary for ongoing game functionality.
As such I have little to no sympathy for those that choose not to walk the walk or how much it costs them. Buying your way out of game play is a self-inflicted bleed. The more you do it the less purpose play has and the less play will interest you, and the sooner you'll be back on forums complaining there is nothing to do.
Those that choose to pay the game can grease the wheels for those of us here to do things the old-fashioned way.
I thought P2W in ESO was marginal and you have confirmed it good to hear. I have decided LA is not for me, so FF (after graphics update who knows when) or ESO looks like where I am headed this year.
MMOs need funding after they launch, to me a sub and costumes are the fairest way. ESO shows what can be achieved but I think they may have some P2W in the store now, ages since we discussed that.
Like what, for example?
You tell me, I am thinking back to a conversation a couple of years back, potions for increasing stamina etc, slots and bigger bags. Anything beyond cosmetics and paying for new zones can be seen as P2W. But I can remember the conclusion was that P2W was only marginal in ESO.
How am I supposed to tell you what you feel to be P2W in the ESO store? That's a curious expectation.
There are very few things exclusive to the cash shop, and the vast majority that are have in game alternatives.
Optional account services are limited to the cash shop, such as extra character slots, name changes, and so forth. These typically cost extra so I don't see them an issue.
You can get potions through the shop. Superior potions can be crafted in game. You can expand character and bank inventory through the shop, but can also do the same with gold earned in game.
You can accelerate the development of your character's riding skills in the cash shop, but can also do the same over time with gold earned in play. Either way, the character's maximum riding skill potential is the same.
There are cosmetics exclusive to the shop, as well as dyes exclusively for them. However, every piece of gear you earn in play are also cosmetics with dyes for them being earned through in game achievements. There are crafting patterns exclusive to the store, but also many crafting patterns earned through play and game events.
Perhaps what would be most bothersome to many is Crown Crates, their version of loot boxes. There are cosmetics there not available through play that purchasers of them may randomly get. However, not long ago Seals of Endeavour were added to the game, earned from doing daily and weekly tasks, that can be used to directly buy cosmetics found in these crates, bypassing the monetary cost and randomness of them. I routinely earn the seals though I never bother looking up their conditions, so they are earned easily without active intent.
ESO seems pretty decent to me overall, which is why I wondered what you specific examples of P2W slipping in you had.
ESO is decent, though I would caution using the ability to earn things in-game as a reason for such.
There were a couple instances I recall where new features (such as furnishing crafting iirc) technically could be grinded in-game *or* expedited via the cash shop. Only, the grind was not what one would call reasonable. To their credit, Zenimax adjusted the grind I believe.
However, merely having an equivalent path in-game can still leave the player with an incredibly tedious and/or time-consuming experience, depending upon the specific implementation.
Seeing as the discussion was within the context of P2W creeping into the ESO shop, my evaluation of pretty decent can't be based on other than the ability to get things through play or otherwise having similar in game features.
MMORPGs are grind heavy games out of need. Grind provides purpose to play after the latest expansion is rampaged through. Purpose maintains interest and interest maintains players. It is necessary for ongoing game functionality.
As such I have little to no sympathy for those that choose not to walk the walk or how much it costs them. Buying your way out of game play is a self-inflicted bleed. The more you do it the less purpose play has and the less play will interest you, and the sooner you'll be back on forums complaining there is nothing to do.
Those that choose to pay the game can grease the wheels for those of us here to do things the old-fashioned way.
Not really about your preferences, but about the development goals and how such microtransactions alter them.
As I said, even ESO was not immune. They just received a lot of negative feedback, enough to pull back on it.
My post was simply highlighting that it's not a binary, but a manner of degree.
I thought P2W in ESO was marginal and you have confirmed it good to hear. I have decided LA is not for me, so FF (after graphics update who knows when) or ESO looks like where I am headed this year.
The P2W in ESO is definitely marginal, but the pay for convenience is phenomenal.
So many useful things, three different vendors which are so very useful in the field, the monthly sub a must for the unlimited crafting materials storage, buying skill points for your alts (as long as your main already has cleared zones for them.
Mount improvement boosters, you're really going to want them for the initial speed @ storage capacity boosts which otherwise take several months of daily log ins to fully acquire per character, so recommend you create multiple characters at the start and start training them daily in mounts and crafting.
There's so many wonderful things to purchase in the store, so hard to resist.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And the circle is shut. Here we are complaining about P2P being shit and that F2P is the way to go and still, most of the F2P games expects you to pay a monthly sub to not be heavily limited, while ALSO gating a lot of its content by QoL stuff you have to pay for.
Imagine if other SaaS products began to gate improvements of the software by forcing the customers to pay an extra one-time cost to unlock it. That's why we currently see games where the UX team spends more time sorting QoL features to create a just enough annoying game to incentivise users to pay for features that should come as a free update. We are currently consciously taking it in the back-hole and being played for fools while these companies earn money by creating an intentionally annoying product just to gain more from it.
I bet the moral of these developers are fairly low.
The past decade has been an era of indie games as they are made with passion and love for the craft. There needs to be a mentality shift in the MMORPG genre and P2P/B2P with NO P2W/Pay for convenience or any of that junk must return for it to be successful. I see no other option. Money CANNOT be of highest priority.
MMOs need funding after they launch, to me a sub and costumes are the fairest way. ESO shows what can be achieved but I think they may have some P2W in the store now, ages since we discussed that.
Like what, for example?
You tell me, I am thinking back to a conversation a couple of years back, potions for increasing stamina etc, slots and bigger bags. Anything beyond cosmetics and paying for new zones can be seen as P2W. But I can remember the conclusion was that P2W was only marginal in ESO.
How am I supposed to tell you what you feel to be P2W in the ESO store? That's a curious expectation.
There are very few things exclusive to the cash shop, and the vast majority that are have in game alternatives.
Optional account services are limited to the cash shop, such as extra character slots, name changes, and so forth. These typically cost extra so I don't see them an issue.
You can get potions through the shop. Superior potions can be crafted in game. You can expand character and bank inventory through the shop, but can also do the same with gold earned in game.
You can accelerate the development of your character's riding skills in the cash shop, but can also do the same over time with gold earned in play. Either way, the character's maximum riding skill potential is the same.
There are cosmetics exclusive to the shop, as well as dyes exclusively for them. However, every piece of gear you earn in play are also cosmetics with dyes for them being earned through in game achievements. There are crafting patterns exclusive to the store, but also many crafting patterns earned through play and game events.
Perhaps what would be most bothersome to many is Crown Crates, their version of loot boxes. There are cosmetics there not available through play that purchasers of them may randomly get. However, not long ago Seals of Endeavour were added to the game, earned from doing daily and weekly tasks, that can be used to directly buy cosmetics found in these crates, bypassing the monetary cost and randomness of them. I routinely earn the seals though I never bother looking up their conditions, so they are earned easily without active intent.
ESO seems pretty decent to me overall, which is why I wondered what you specific examples of P2W slipping in you had.
ESO is decent, though I would caution using the ability to earn things in-game as a reason for such.
There were a couple instances I recall where new features (such as furnishing crafting iirc) technically could be grinded in-game *or* expedited via the cash shop. Only, the grind was not what one would call reasonable. To their credit, Zenimax adjusted the grind I believe.
However, merely having an equivalent path in-game can still leave the player with an incredibly tedious and/or time-consuming experience, depending upon the specific implementation.
Seeing as the discussion was within the context of P2W creeping into the ESO shop, my evaluation of pretty decent can't be based on other than the ability to get things through play or otherwise having similar in game features.
MMORPGs are grind heavy games out of need. Grind provides purpose to play after the latest expansion is rampaged through. Purpose maintains interest and interest maintains players. It is necessary for ongoing game functionality.
As such I have little to no sympathy for those that choose not to walk the walk or how much it costs them. Buying your way out of game play is a self-inflicted bleed. The more you do it the less purpose play has and the less play will interest you, and the sooner you'll be back on forums complaining there is nothing to do.
Those that choose to pay the game can grease the wheels for those of us here to do things the old-fashioned way.
Not really about your preferences, but about the development goals and how such microtransactions alter them.
As I said, even ESO was not immune. They just received a lot of negative feedback, enough to pull back on it.
My post was simply highlighting that it's not a binary, but a manner of degree.
I don't recall the furniture crafting cash shop issues you mention and the resulting player discontent and change it led to. I'll see what I can find regarding it as I'm curious about the details.
ESO has no special immunity, either from the potential of excessive greed or critique of their practices. On the other hand, many aren't all that precise in their critique of company practices. When evaluating it all I can really do is look at their practices while also keeping those of other games I'm experienced with for comparison.
Based on what I've directly observed and am otherwise aware they do a good job with their cash shop and providing generally reasonable in game alternatives to what is provided within it, at least in the context of the state of things these days.
It remains, or course, imperfect... but I feel it among the less imperfect.
MMOs need funding after they launch, to me a sub and costumes are the fairest way. ESO shows what can be achieved but I think they may have some P2W in the store now, ages since we discussed that.
Like what, for example?
You tell me, I am thinking back to a conversation a couple of years back, potions for increasing stamina etc, slots and bigger bags. Anything beyond cosmetics and paying for new zones can be seen as P2W. But I can remember the conclusion was that P2W was only marginal in ESO.
How am I supposed to tell you what you feel to be P2W in the ESO store? That's a curious expectation.
There are very few things exclusive to the cash shop, and the vast majority that are have in game alternatives.
Optional account services are limited to the cash shop, such as extra character slots, name changes, and so forth. These typically cost extra so I don't see them an issue.
You can get potions through the shop. Superior potions can be crafted in game. You can expand character and bank inventory through the shop, but can also do the same with gold earned in game.
You can accelerate the development of your character's riding skills in the cash shop, but can also do the same over time with gold earned in play. Either way, the character's maximum riding skill potential is the same.
There are cosmetics exclusive to the shop, as well as dyes exclusively for them. However, every piece of gear you earn in play are also cosmetics with dyes for them being earned through in game achievements. There are crafting patterns exclusive to the store, but also many crafting patterns earned through play and game events.
Perhaps what would be most bothersome to many is Crown Crates, their version of loot boxes. There are cosmetics there not available through play that purchasers of them may randomly get. However, not long ago Seals of Endeavour were added to the game, earned from doing daily and weekly tasks, that can be used to directly buy cosmetics found in these crates, bypassing the monetary cost and randomness of them. I routinely earn the seals though I never bother looking up their conditions, so they are earned easily without active intent.
ESO seems pretty decent to me overall, which is why I wondered what you specific examples of P2W slipping in you had.
ESO is decent, though I would caution using the ability to earn things in-game as a reason for such.
There were a couple instances I recall where new features (such as furnishing crafting iirc) technically could be grinded in-game *or* expedited via the cash shop. Only, the grind was not what one would call reasonable. To their credit, Zenimax adjusted the grind I believe.
However, merely having an equivalent path in-game can still leave the player with an incredibly tedious and/or time-consuming experience, depending upon the specific implementation.
Seeing as the discussion was within the context of P2W creeping into the ESO shop, my evaluation of pretty decent can't be based on other than the ability to get things through play or otherwise having similar in game features.
MMORPGs are grind heavy games out of need. Grind provides purpose to play after the latest expansion is rampaged through. Purpose maintains interest and interest maintains players. It is necessary for ongoing game functionality.
As such I have little to no sympathy for those that choose not to walk the walk or how much it costs them. Buying your way out of game play is a self-inflicted bleed. The more you do it the less purpose play has and the less play will interest you, and the sooner you'll be back on forums complaining there is nothing to do.
Those that choose to pay the game can grease the wheels for those of us here to do things the old-fashioned way.
Not really about your preferences, but about the development goals and how such microtransactions alter them.
As I said, even ESO was not immune. They just received a lot of negative feedback, enough to pull back on it.
My post was simply highlighting that it's not a binary, but a manner of degree.
I don't recall the furniture crafting cash shop issues you mention and the resulting player discontent and change it led to. I'll see what I can find regarding it as I'm curious about the details.
ESO has no special immunity, either from the potential of excessive greed or critique of their practices. On the other hand, many aren't all that precise in their critique of company practices. When evaluating it all I can really do is look at their practices while also keeping those of other games I'm experienced with for comparison.
Based on what I've directly observed and am otherwise aware they do a good job with their cash shop and providing generally reasonable in game alternatives to what is provided within it, at least in the context of the state of things these days.
It remains, or course, imperfect... but I feel it among the less imperfect.
I may be misremembering the specifics, but I do remember a new crafting system being introduced that had longer grind than the rest when it was introduced. What new systems have they introduced in expansions? Jewelry crafting? Maybe that was it.
You're absolutely right about ESO in general. My original reply to you wasn't a rebuttal so much as piggy-backing off your point to highlight how some games *technically* include in-game ways to get items sold in the cash shop, but those ways will include an intentionally long and tedious grind specifically to help push microtransactions.
I thought P2W in ESO was marginal and you have confirmed it good to hear. I have decided LA is not for me, so FF (after graphics update who knows when) or ESO looks like where I am headed this year.
The P2W in ESO is definitely marginal, but the pay for convenience is phenomenal.
So many useful things, three different vendors which are so very useful in the field, the monthly sub a must for the unlimited crafting materials storage, buying skill points for your alts (as long as your main already has cleared zones for them.
Mount improvement boosters, you're really going to want them for the initial speed @ storage capacity boosts which otherwise take several months of daily log ins to fully acquire per character, so recommend you create multiple characters at the start and start training them daily in mounts and crafting.
There's so many wonderful things to purchase in the store, so hard to resist.
The remote bank, vendor, set changer, and now gear dismantler are all quite handy to have in the field and not what I would consider inexpensive.
Unlimited crafting material storage is a subscription exclusive incentive, so I don't consider that pay for convenience any more than the subscription itself. I would if it were available as a separate cash shop purchase.
The remainder you mentioned comes down to playing the game or paying it in my view. I've collected shards manually on all my characters and raised their riding skills through the stables. It's what I would have done for alts before such boosting was available in cash shops so don't find the store alternatives difficult to resist.
The cash shop is indeed loaded with a lot of shiny wants that catch the eye and can often test one's restraint. Steeling one's resolve before opening it is advised.
Are you paying for unlimited crafting storage? Yes, then it is pay for convenience. The fact that you're renting the convenience doesn't change the nature of it being paid for.
The fact that they remove pain points in the game and provide an advantage through a recurring monthly rent bill is what I find particularly egregious because you're also paying for the Chapters separately. If the subscription was just access to content without a purchase then it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that they have to pad it with advantage incentives like game cash and unlimited storage really speaks to the lack of value people see in a base sub especially in a B2P hybrid like ESO.
I'm paying for a subscription. Unlimited crafting material shortage and a stipend in Crowns comes along with at no additional cost. That unlimited crafting storage isn't available otherwise in an incentive to subscribe, a rather effective one as is evidenced by the frequently expressed desire it be otherwise available. Paying for expansions on top of subscription fees is nothing new in the MMORPG genre.
The only thing somewhat atypical for ESO is the player option to subscribe for general ongoing DLC access for the duration of, or purchase ongoing access to specific DLC regardless of subscription status.
Are you paying for unlimited crafting storage? Yes, then it is pay for convenience. The fact that you're renting the convenience doesn't change the nature of it being paid for.
The fact that they remove pain points in the game and provide an advantage through a recurring monthly rent bill is what I find particularly egregious because you're also paying for the Chapters separately. If the subscription was just access to content without a purchase then it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that they have to pad it with advantage incentives like game cash and unlimited storage really speaks to the lack of value people see in a base sub especially in a B2P hybrid like ESO.
The Pay for Crafting Storage is less of a convenience than a barrier to crafting. That is one of the primary reasons I haven't been in ESO in about 3 years.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The only way Subs will really make a comeback is if it's sold in the manner of "Ad Free Gaming! Only 15 a month!"
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Are you paying for unlimited crafting storage? Yes, then it is pay for convenience. The fact that you're renting the convenience doesn't change the nature of it being paid for.
The fact that they remove pain points in the game and provide an advantage through a recurring monthly rent bill is what I find particularly egregious because you're also paying for the Chapters separately. If the subscription was just access to content without a purchase then it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that they have to pad it with advantage incentives like game cash and unlimited storage really speaks to the lack of value people see in a base sub especially in a B2P hybrid like ESO.
The Pay for Crafting Storage is less of a convenience than a barrier to crafting. That is one of the primary reasons I haven't been in ESO in about 3 years.
It depends to what degree one wants to craft.
If heavily, a subscription is very helpful. If instead someone only wishes to raise Alchemy for the potion duration passive that can be done easily without.
So unlimited storage is a bad thing if paid for in a cash shop, but OK if it comes with a sub? At least with the cash shop its a one time thing....
It's "okay" whatever way they want to provide it. Unlimited crafting material storage is not a standard MMORPG feature one can expect to be included by default or offered in a particular way.
So unlimited storage is a bad thing if paid for in a cash shop, but OK if it comes with a sub? At least with the cash shop its a one time thing....
It's "okay" whatever way they want to provide it. Unlimited crafting material storage is not a standard MMORPG feature one can expect to be included by default or offered in a particular way.
EVE Online, unlimited storage, industry or otherwise included in the subscription price since 2003 and the game I played for 10 years, so yes I expect all MMORPGS to be similar, or are deficient as far as I'm concerned.
Funny thing is, I loath crafting but can't bear to sell or throw anything away which might be useful later, which is a trait common for many humans which the designers at Zenimax / Bethesda intentionally prey upon.
Nnot the first or only company to do so but they intentionally created a system to force one to sub in order to not go crazy trying to manage the onslaught of materials they coded into the game for this purpose.
They doubled down in FO76 by giving materials weight, and limiting total storage by weight rather than by slots, making the entire process extra evil.
But Kyle, can't you just sell the extra materials to the vendor bots? Only up to the daily maximum cap limit. Oh, you somehow manage to stay under storage weight daily....great, until you hit the 30K character limit for caps..easy to do as there really isn't anything of value to buy.
Along with a sub on my first account I eventually ended up buying a 2nd account ($15 sale at GameStop) to facilitate trading between characters so had about 8 storage mules each holding 30K caps and all overflow crafting materials and gear I didn't want to scrap.
Even then my friends and I would occasionally give away 5K caps to random new players to try and offload the surplus though many were suspicious of the free offer and ran away in terror thinking it was a trap of some sort.
Kinda comical and sad really to think how jaded gamers have become these days.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMORPGs are grind heavy games out of need. Grind provides purpose to play after the latest expansion is rampaged through. Purpose maintains interest and interest maintains players. It is necessary for ongoing game functionality.
As such I have little to no sympathy for those that choose not to walk the walk or how much it costs them. Buying your way out of game play is a self-inflicted bleed. The more you do it the less purpose play has and the less play will interest you, and the sooner you'll be back on forums complaining there is nothing to do.
Those that choose to pay the game can grease the wheels for those of us here to do things the old-fashioned way.
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
As I said, even ESO was not immune. They just received a lot of negative feedback, enough to pull back on it.
My post was simply highlighting that it's not a binary, but a manner of degree.
So many useful things, three different vendors which are so very useful in the field, the monthly sub a must for the unlimited crafting materials storage, buying skill points for your alts (as long as your main already has cleared zones for them.
Mount improvement boosters, you're really going to want them for the initial speed @ storage capacity boosts which otherwise take several months of daily log ins to fully acquire per character, so recommend you create multiple characters at the start and start training them daily in mounts and crafting.
There's so many wonderful things to purchase in the store, so hard to resist.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Imagine if other SaaS products began to gate improvements of the software by forcing the customers to pay an extra one-time cost to unlock it. That's why we currently see games where the UX team spends more time sorting QoL features to create a just enough annoying game to incentivise users to pay for features that should come as a free update. We are currently consciously taking it in the back-hole and being played for fools while these companies earn money by creating an intentionally annoying product just to gain more from it.
I bet the moral of these developers are fairly low.
The past decade has been an era of indie games as they are made with passion and love for the craft. There needs to be a mentality shift in the MMORPG genre and P2P/B2P with NO P2W/Pay for convenience or any of that junk must return for it to be successful. I see no other option. Money CANNOT be of highest priority.
ESO has no special immunity, either from the potential of excessive greed or critique of their practices. On the other hand, many aren't all that precise in their critique of company practices. When evaluating it all I can really do is look at their practices while also keeping those of other games I'm experienced with for comparison.
Based on what I've directly observed and am otherwise aware they do a good job with their cash shop and providing generally reasonable in game alternatives to what is provided within it, at least in the context of the state of things these days.
It remains, or course, imperfect... but I feel it among the less imperfect.
You're absolutely right about ESO in general. My original reply to you wasn't a rebuttal so much as piggy-backing off your point to highlight how some games *technically* include in-game ways to get items sold in the cash shop, but those ways will include an intentionally long and tedious grind specifically to help push microtransactions.
The remote bank, vendor, set changer, and now gear dismantler are all quite handy to have in the field and not what I would consider inexpensive.
Unlimited crafting material storage is a subscription exclusive incentive, so I don't consider that pay for convenience any more than the subscription itself. I would if it were available as a separate cash shop purchase.
The remainder you mentioned comes down to playing the game or paying it in my view. I've collected shards manually on all my characters and raised their riding skills through the stables. It's what I would have done for alts before such boosting was available in cash shops so don't find the store alternatives difficult to resist.
The cash shop is indeed loaded with a lot of shiny wants that catch the eye and can often test one's restraint. Steeling one's resolve before opening it is advised.
I'm paying for a subscription. Unlimited crafting material shortage and a stipend in Crowns comes along with at no additional cost. That unlimited crafting storage isn't available otherwise in an incentive to subscribe, a rather effective one as is evidenced by the frequently expressed desire it be otherwise available. Paying for expansions on top of subscription fees is nothing new in the MMORPG genre.
The only thing somewhat atypical for ESO is the player option to subscribe for general ongoing DLC access for the duration of, or purchase ongoing access to specific DLC regardless of subscription status.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It's "okay" whatever way they want to provide it. Unlimited crafting material storage is not a standard MMORPG feature one can expect to be included by default or offered in a particular way.
We are talking about mmoppgs right ?..... everyone is to be equal was the original intent all so PEOPLE CAN PLAY TOGEATHER.
Funny thing is, I loath crafting but can't bear to sell or throw anything away which might be useful later, which is a trait common for many humans which the designers at Zenimax / Bethesda intentionally prey upon.
Nnot the first or only company to do so but they intentionally created a system to force one to sub in order to not go crazy trying to manage the onslaught of materials they coded into the game for this purpose.
They doubled down in FO76 by giving materials weight, and limiting total storage by weight rather than by slots, making the entire process extra evil.
But Kyle, can't you just sell the extra materials to the vendor bots? Only up to the daily maximum cap limit. Oh, you somehow manage to stay under storage weight daily....great, until you hit the 30K character limit for caps..easy to do as there really isn't anything of value to buy.
Along with a sub on my first account I eventually ended up buying a 2nd account ($15 sale at GameStop) to facilitate trading between characters so had about 8 storage mules each holding 30K caps and all overflow crafting materials and gear I didn't want to scrap.
Even then my friends and I would occasionally give away 5K caps to random new players to try and offload the surplus though many were suspicious of the free offer and ran away in terror thinking it was a trap of some sort.
Kinda comical and sad really to think how jaded gamers have become these days.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon