Horizontal Progression Games are a fools errand, no one is going to want to play a game for years, only to be no better off than someone that just started yesterday.
Guild Wars 2....
GW2 is not horizontal, last time I looked it directly has levels 1 - 80, just saying.
Timewise, you spend a few hours to get to 80 (over the span of a few days), and the rest of your time sitting on the same power score. And as you know level cap hasn't increased since release in 2012.
Ascended gives you a small percentile increase and takes some time and specializations increase your output a bit, but the power curve flattens almost completely after just a few hours.
And you have level boosters to take you to 80 instantly and, for alts, levelling tomes.
People play GW2 for the collectibles and the gameplay and content, not for the power progression. In fact those that want power progression criticize the game for that.
"People play GW2 for the collectibles and the gameplay and content, not for the power progression."
While I do want some progression, power wise, I'm much more concerned with interesting game play that can keep me involved in the game. Mostly in the "world of discovery", but also in strategic ways (which can include social interactions, economics, building and locations, etc.).
Just learning new skills is a power gain for the Player, just not vertically in the overall sense of the game. A classic example would be elemental spells. If there's the elements of fire, ice, earth, water, and air, and I know fire based spells to start, I might be able to do extra damage vs. Ice Based MOBs. If I then learn another elemental set of spells, I could do extra Damage vs. that element, but my extra damage might be reduced vs. both of those elements I know. Making me more powerful, overall in the game world, but a little less so vs. those 2 types of Elementals.
Then, if I learn to focus some spells on AOE, and others on single targets, I can really customize my Character into something more useful as I go. A Character that I want, as opposed to just what the game designed.
Same for Warriors with weapons and special attacks. Same for Blacksmiths, Alchemists, Carpenters, and any Skill that a Player chooses to practice.
That's just one example of how it can work, since the interpretation of these things is pretty open to ideas.
Vertical progression is, fundementally, about addition.
You get your base stats AND level 2 stats / skills AND level 3 stats / skills. Each bit of progression is added to what you already had before, making you more powerful.
Horizontal progression is, fundamentally, about choice.
You get your base stats OR level 2 stuff OR level 3 stuff OR level 4 stuff. You can't use it all at once, so you have to make a choice. You get better at some stuff (like burst dps) whilst balancing out by getting worse at other stuff (like aoe dps). By making it a choice, rather than an addition, you maintain power levels across the game.
As for the progression gap, of course there is one. Unlocking new specialities will allow you to do more things. That is a good thing as it helps make the progression meaningful. But, just because there is meaningful progression, doesn't mean that vets and newbies can't play together.
For example, imagine you are a newbie melee dps class and all you can do is single target dps. That is a useful role for all group content, meaning you can join in from day 1. however, if there is a dungeon or raid that requires a lot of aoe dps, that newbie is going to be less effective. You wouldn't want to do that dungeon with only newbies, you'd fail, but if you could bring a mix of vets (who have unlocked and chosen aoe specs) and newbies (who only do single target) then you can be successful.
I hope that makes it clearer.
"You get your base stats OR level 2 stuff OR level 3 stuff OR level 4 stuff. You can't use it all at once, so you have to make a choice. You get better at some stuff (like burst dps) whilst balancing out by getting worse at other stuff (like aoe dps). By making it a choice, rather than an addition, you maintain power levels across the game.
As for the progression gap, of course there is one. Unlocking new specialities will allow you to do more things. That is a good thing as it helps make the progression meaningful. But, just because there is meaningful progression, doesn't mean that vets and newbies can't play together."
This is a very interesting concept. What about skills based on crafting things, economic stuff? Let's take an Alchemist, as one example. If they make more powerful potions, and give up what? And gear producers, making better gear, what do they give up? Or are they basically refining their range of skills, better at some aspects of what they produce, but giving up others? (I'm thinking of Potions that heal one stat, or cure one stat affecting poison, etc.; or weapons that have a keener edge but wear out quicker...as a reference to my questions.
Good questions!
I guess the core of your question revolves around the concept of crafting "better gear". In a horizontal system, that term should simply be "different gear". Better mitigation balanced against lower mobility. Better damage balanced against slower speed etc etc.
The "master crafter" would have access to all the different permutations the game provides, but the stuff they craft for players would remain balanced.
Please note, though, that whenever I talk about horizontal progression, I am purely talking about horizontal character progression with respects to character power. My goal is to remove barriers between players to make it easier to play together, and to stop content becoming redundant as soon as you've done it once.
Economic power is a different thing to character power, and so I don't really care about verticality in this respect. If you have a million gold, and I only have 1 gold, we can still play together without that gap causing problems. Additionally, external sources of power like wealth or property can be traded - e.g. you could give me 10 gold to repair my gear if i was short - which means if those gaps cause problems, they are easier to overcome than inate character power.
Would I be able to create specialized Characters? Such as: - A Character that's specialized for Dungeons of a long dead ancient culture? - A Master Stealther who, while less capable in combat, might be able to secretly delve into Dungeons for the purpose of scouting and knowledge? - A Master Hunter/Scout in forests? - A Master Builder who can make beautiful, elaborate Temples and Castles? - A Master Horse Breeder who can create the best war horses, or for speed?
Or, as an alternative, Guilds that specialize in such things? (And others not mentioned.)
"People play GW2 for the collectibles and the gameplay and content, not for the power progression."
While I do want some progression, power wise, I'm much more concerned with interesting game play that can keep me involved in the game. Mostly in the "world of discovery", but also in strategic ways (which can include social interactions, economics, building and locations, etc.).
Just learning new skills is a power gain for the Player, just not vertically in the overall sense of the game. A classic example would be elemental spells. If there's the elements of fire, ice, earth, water, and air, and I know fire based spells to start, I might be able to do extra damage vs. Ice Based MOBs. If I then learn another elemental set of spells, I could do extra Damage vs. that element, but my extra damage might be reduced vs. both of those elements I know. Making me more powerful, overall in the game world, but a little less so vs. those 2 types of Elementals.
Then, if I learn to focus some spells on AOE, and others on single targets, I can really customize my Character into something more useful as I go. A Character that I want, as opposed to just what the game designed.
Same for Warriors with weapons and special attacks. Same for Blacksmiths, Alchemists, Carpenters, and any Skill that a Player chooses to practice.
That's just one example of how it can work, since the interpretation of these things is pretty open to ideas.
1) GW2 has interesting combat mechanics, fun instances, fun casual OW large group content and fun PVP. It has some interesting exploration (nooks and crannies that are hard to find without spoilers, lore bits scattered around, jumping puzzles etc.). But apart from combat, its world mechanics are not that deep and it would not fit your tastes. It is a themepark through and through.
2) This is the whole semantics quibble that anything that can help you perform better in some context is a "power gain" or "vertical progression" or whatever term anyone uses for it. In this context there is no horizontal progression. Maybe the most explicit way to frame it is "direct damage output progression". GW2 has a sharp curve (levels) in the beginning for a few days for that, then you reach the level cap which hasn't changed since release and it almost flattens. You can afterwards get more versatile by getting different gear sets, class specializations, masteries, legendaries etc.
Alright, just going to disagree on the "few days" for 1 - 80, but I suppose if you were a hard core grinder, you could pull that off.
Anyway.
Originally, GW2, could have been the closest thing to hybrid model of Levels and end game being horizontal.
Not a true horizontal game, as even with the down leveling, you were much more powerful returning to the lower level zones then you were going through them first time, mainly due to opening up skills and abilities, and more broad stat options.
With that said, they introduced Stat gear grinds, in the way of Ascended and later with various infusions. Where you could get upwards to +9 stat, as well as named infusions.
Later they added in Stat Combos that also Gave Advantages, like Vipers being better than Carrion, and now Grieving being better than Vipers, so there is direct power creep as it were, some far more noticeable than others.
Then you had Masteries, which could give a lot to a little advantage, not sure what the current ones offer, but Fractal Mastery was super handy to do Fractals, offering a direct advantage over those that didn't have it.
The real powerhouses however were the Specialization, and Elite Specializations, which were direct jumps in power as you unlocked them.
Ideally, however, GW2 is pretty much Meta or Shit, so as long as you run meta, you will be doing quite well for yourself, but to get to be able to run some of those meta builds, does in fact take a bit of grinding.
The biggest thing about GW2, was that it was marketed as a Casuals game, not a survival game, not a hardcore game, not a drag your nuts across hot asphalt game, but a game that would be for the everyone else gamer, an escape from WoW as it was marketed.
So they pulled in a lot of, what would be called Slow Burn Players, players that would taker a month or two alone, just getting to 80th, where a gamer like yourself equates that to a few hours.
And then spending time working on crafting, which again was a level grind. Then Legendary Crafting, and then making their First Legendary Item, which could take years in the process, and someone walking in is not going to be 500 in all crafting disciplines, and have the means to make a legendary weapon, so there was that as a huge marketing concept for the game.
As it turned out, players wanted Power Creep, so it was continually added in, even if not in direct levels, direct power and advantage was in fact put into the game.
So.. I stand by what I said.. Horizontal Progression is a fools errand, no one is going to play a game for years on end to be no better off than someone that just started.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
no one is going to play a game for years on end to be no better off than someone that just started.
What about all those people playing CSGO? Moot point
Wow, a purely competitive PvP game, which all progress is based on Tier and Rank, to be compared to an MMO, now, why didn't I think to compare two kinds of games that have absolutely nothing in common.
Gosh, let me ask that question again, Why didn't I think to compare two enterally different kinds of games that have nothing in common.
Gosh this makes we want to go compare Animal Crossing to Doom Eternal.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
no one is going to play a game for years on end to be no better off than someone that just started.
What about all those people playing CSGO? Moot point
What about Pong? See, I can throw out a game that has nothing to do with advancement in a MMORPG too. But you actually make an inadvertent point: that magical horizontal, non-power creep is available in FPSs and games like Chivalry. Why not get your fix there?
I guess the core of your question revolves around the concept of crafting "better gear". In a horizontal system, that term should simply be "different gear". Better mitigation balanced against lower mobility. Better damage balanced against slower speed etc etc.
The "master crafter" would have access to all the different permutations the game provides, but the stuff they craft for players would remain balanced.
Please note, though, that whenever I talk about horizontal progression, I am purely talking about horizontal character progression with respects to character power. My goal is to remove barriers between players to make it easier to play together, and to stop content becoming redundant as soon as you've done it once.
Economic power is a different thing to character power, and so I don't really care about verticality in this respect. If you have a million gold, and I only have 1 gold, we can still play together without that gap causing problems. Additionally, external sources of power like wealth or property can be traded - e.g. you could give me 10 gold to repair my gear if i was short - which means if those gaps cause problems, they are easier to overcome than inate character power.
Would I be able to create specialized Characters? Such as: - A Character that's specialized for Dungeons of a long dead ancient culture? - A Master Stealther who, while less capable in combat, might be able to secretly delve into Dungeons for the purpose of scouting and knowledge? - A Master Hunter/Scout in forests? - A Master Builder who can make beautiful, elaborate Temples and Castles? - A Master Horse Breeder who can create the best war horses, or for speed?
Or, as an alternative, Guilds that specialize in such things? (And others not mentioned.)
And will we get multiple Character Slots?
Well, now you are getting down into the very specifics of a single games design, so I cannot answer! In theory, all those things should be possible and should work within a horizontal system, but there are too many other variables to give you a definitive yes/no.
no one is going to play a game for years on end to be no better off than someone that just started.
What about all those people playing CSGO? Moot point
What about Pong? See, I can throw out a game that has nothing to do with advancement in a MMORPG too. But you actually make an inadvertent point: that magical horizontal, non-power creep is available in FPSs and games like Chivalry. Why not get your fix there?
Because FPSes don't have RPG combat
Because FPSes have no roleplaying
Because FPSes aren't massively multiplayer
Because FPSes are first person, and I prefer 3rd person
Because FPSes tend not to be set in fantasy worlds
Because FPSes don't have any persistence
Whilst the progression mechanics certainly have a big impact on my enjoyment of a game, it is only one out of many factors. I have played FPSes with horizontal progression and I really appreciated them (even tho i dont like shooters). I have played FPSes with no progression, and they weren't great. I have played FPSes with vertical progression, and they sucked balls.
no one is going to play a game for years on end to be no better off than someone that just started.
What about all those people playing CSGO? Moot point
What about Pong? See, I can throw out a game that has nothing to do with advancement in a MMORPG too. But you actually make an inadvertent point: that magical horizontal, non-power creep is available in FPSs and games like Chivalry. Why not get your fix there?
Pong was the first game to have a controlled characters and hit detection, this is a very valid point.
My post was a joke about people being bad at CSGO that went over both of your heads. Nobody wants to read a 5 paragraph essay (daily for weeks in this thread) about your opinion on meaningless mechanics and progression. Not sure why you are so heated and quick to argue with me about nothing.
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is
why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I
only hurt myself."
If.. and I mean.. IF.. you didn't want to engage in pointless discussions about games, why are you here?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If want to talk about game design why don't first read a book about game design first? Like Theory of Fun for Game Design and The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses? So you can have an educated opinion?
A game is an artefact that the player interacts with and a game is composed of mechanics and aesthetics.
Vertical progression and horizontal progression is extrinsic to game mechanics. You see this by taking a competitive FPS Shooter like Counter-Strike and adding stats and skills to it or you could take a grind Korean or Chinese MMORPG with 1000s of levels and remove the levels and give all skills at the start of the game.
Vertical and horizontal progression is a cheap way to add value to the game. Is like adding pretty graphics to a game. A game that has vertical and horizontal progression has a richer experience compared to a game that does not have.
A game mechanic is essentially a mathematical problem that the player needs to solve. With a boring game being a game that only allows one solution and a fun game one that allows infinite solutions.
In the case of MMORPG, the mechanic the player spends 90% of the time in combat. For this reason, developers need to focus on developing combat mechanics. In my opinion, what MMORPG players want is more mechanics that allow different ways to kills, different ways to socialize(taking advantage of the MMO aspect) different ways to compete with other players and the environment. Different things to build in the game.
I played both Lost Ark and Guild Wars 2. Lost Ark is like an improved Guild Wars 2. It has a better story, combat, graphics, exploration, achievement. Also, it has Vertical Progression(gated by time). But what I noticed is that all this improvement that Guild Wars 2 and also Lost Ark tried to do is only to the Aesthetic part of the game. I think developers of MMORPG need to experiment with different game mechanics to improve the genre.
If want to talk about game design why don't first read a book about game design first? Like Theory of Fun for Game Design and The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses? So you can have an educated opinion?
A game is an artefact that the player interacts with and a game is composed of mechanics and aesthetics.
Vertical progression and horizontal progression is extrinsic to game mechanics. You see this by taking a competitive FPS Shooter like Counter-Strike and adding stats and skills to it or you could take a grind Korean or Chinese MMORPG with 1000s of levels and remove the levels and give all skills at the start of the game.
Vertical and horizontal progression is a cheap way to add value to the game. Is like adding pretty graphics to a game. A game that has vertical and horizontal progression has a richer experience compared to a game that does not have.
A game mechanic is essentially a mathematical problem that the player needs to solve. With a boring game being a game that only allows one solution and a fun game one that allows infinite solutions.
In the case of MMORPG, the mechanic the player spends 90% of the time in combat. For this reason, developers need to focus on developing combat mechanics. In my opinion, what MMORPG players want is more mechanics that allow different ways to kills, different ways to socialize(taking advantage of the MMO aspect) different ways to compete with other players and the environment. Different things to build in the game.
I played both Lost Ark and Guild Wars 2. Lost Ark is like an improved Guild Wars 2. It has a better story, combat, graphics, exploration, achievement. Also, it has Vertical Progression(gated by time). But what I noticed is that all this improvement that Guild Wars 2 and also Lost Ark tried to do is only to the Aesthetic part of the game. I think developers of MMORPG need to experiment with different game mechanics to improve the genre.
I agree. I'm not sure that there's a whole lot of experimentation required, though. Just a logical view of applying them to a massively multiplayer setting, with persistence. Because most of anything that could be added has been done before, in many forms of games. Or even other types of computer programs, I would guess.
Comments
While I do want some progression, power wise, I'm much more concerned with interesting game play that can keep me involved in the game. Mostly in the "world of discovery", but also in strategic ways (which can include social interactions, economics, building and locations, etc.).
Just learning new skills is a power gain for the Player, just not vertically in the overall sense of the game.
A classic example would be elemental spells. If there's the elements of fire, ice, earth, water, and air, and I know fire based spells to start, I might be able to do extra damage vs. Ice Based MOBs. If I then learn another elemental set of spells, I could do extra Damage vs. that element, but my extra damage might be reduced vs. both of those elements I know. Making me more powerful, overall in the game world, but a little less so vs. those 2 types of Elementals.
Then, if I learn to focus some spells on AOE, and others on single targets, I can really customize my Character into something more useful as I go. A Character that I want, as opposed to just what the game designed.
Same for Warriors with weapons and special attacks.
Same for Blacksmiths, Alchemists, Carpenters, and any Skill that a Player chooses to practice.
That's just one example of how it can work, since the interpretation of these things is pretty open to ideas.
Once upon a time....
Such as:
- A Character that's specialized for Dungeons of a long dead ancient culture?
- A Master Stealther who, while less capable in combat, might be able to secretly delve into Dungeons for the purpose of scouting and knowledge?
- A Master Hunter/Scout in forests?
- A Master Builder who can make beautiful, elaborate Temples and Castles?
- A Master Horse Breeder who can create the best war horses, or for speed?
Or, as an alternative, Guilds that specialize in such things? (And others not mentioned.)
And will we get multiple Character Slots?
Once upon a time....
Anyway.
Originally, GW2, could have been the closest thing to hybrid model of Levels and end game being horizontal.
Not a true horizontal game, as even with the down leveling, you were much more powerful returning to the lower level zones then you were going through them first time, mainly due to opening up skills and abilities, and more broad stat options.
With that said, they introduced Stat gear grinds, in the way of Ascended and later with various infusions. Where you could get upwards to +9 stat, as well as named infusions.
Later they added in Stat Combos that also Gave Advantages, like Vipers being better than Carrion, and now Grieving being better than Vipers, so there is direct power creep as it were, some far more noticeable than others.
Then you had Masteries, which could give a lot to a little advantage, not sure what the current ones offer, but Fractal Mastery was super handy to do Fractals, offering a direct advantage over those that didn't have it.
The real powerhouses however were the Specialization, and Elite Specializations, which were direct jumps in power as you unlocked them.
Ideally, however, GW2 is pretty much Meta or Shit, so as long as you run meta, you will be doing quite well for yourself, but to get to be able to run some of those meta builds, does in fact take a bit of grinding.
The biggest thing about GW2, was that it was marketed as a Casuals game, not a survival game, not a hardcore game, not a drag your nuts across hot asphalt game, but a game that would be for the everyone else gamer, an escape from WoW as it was marketed.
So they pulled in a lot of, what would be called Slow Burn Players, players that would taker a month or two alone, just getting to 80th, where a gamer like yourself equates that to a few hours.
And then spending time working on crafting, which again was a level grind. Then Legendary Crafting, and then making their First Legendary Item, which could take years in the process, and someone walking in is not going to be 500 in all crafting disciplines, and have the means to make a legendary weapon, so there was that as a huge marketing concept for the game.
As it turned out, players wanted Power Creep, so it was continually added in, even if not in direct levels, direct power and advantage was in fact put into the game.
So.. I stand by what I said.. Horizontal Progression is a fools errand, no one is going to play a game for years on end to be no better off than someone that just started.
Gosh, let me ask that question again, Why didn't I think to compare two enterally different kinds of games that have nothing in common.
Gosh this makes we want to go compare Animal Crossing to Doom Eternal.
Just a logical view of applying them to a massively multiplayer setting, with persistence.
Because most of anything that could be added has been done before, in many forms of games. Or even other types of computer programs, I would guess.
But yes, this is what would advance MMORPGs.
Once upon a time....