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Part of this game community already seems toxic AF

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,040
    edited February 2022
    Zegaloth said:
    Zegaloth said:
    To do that Slap, people would have to stop placing outsized importance on the "classics," which a subset of the population would then throw a fit about.
    Classics were not always classics.  All our current path does is prevent or at least hamper the creation of new “classics” which someday would be viewed the way LOTR is today...

    My main issue with this line of thinking is that no one seems to bat an eye when a classic gets a modern remake with a bunch of white people in it, but the moment a character is recast as a PoC that's when people start coming out the woodwork to complain about how "woke" culture is ruining everything.

    That is simply incorrect and a lazy generalization IMHO.  Sorry but I think it is.  People lost their shit about every single change to GoT (Where's Lady Stoneheart!!! Tyrion's nose should have been cut off!!! For fuck's sake even the dogs/wolves caused arguments).  You do not think that Star Trek remake got destroyed by fans?  If you honestly think that "no one seems to bat an eye" about ANY and every change/remake then I think that is simply disingenuous. 

    I can't speak for everyone, nor do I wish to... but as I said... if we put the same effort into making NEW characters and stories and IP instead of changing OLD ones.. the "problem" would take care of itself.

    Do I really need another Spiderman?  Why take the cheap way out and continue going back to the same well?  How about making a NEW Superhero movie?  And make it good... not some lame ass attempt.  I honestly do not care if the "next Spiderman" is white, brown, male, female or pig (yes there is a Spiderpig) because the simple fact that there will BE another one is incredibly silly and a waste of effort/opportunity.

    Because there was a West Side Story.. did not diminish Romeo and Juliet.  And it went on to become a classic all it's own.

    Are we truly this bereft of creative talent that we cannot create anything that is new and interesting?



    Do you think that PoC shouldn't have white role models? PoC like these things too. It's not hard to see that they would want to BE Spider-Man, not Arachbro. Sometimes creating your own "thing" isn't the same as being the thing you want to be, and I don't fault anyone for that.

    See this is just a fundamental difference.  Sure... I might like a story to be different... but then it's not the same story is it?

    Why does it have to be "the same thing"?  Why can't it be something better?  

    The highest grossing film of all time (last I checked) was Avatar.  An original IP.  (It's also my all time favorite Theme park area BTW...).  Maybe I thought parts of it were silly... maybe I hated the color blue...  So what?  THAT was the IP and the story... and it was original.. and it was a multi-billion dollar commercial success.

    Stop setting artificial barriers and low thresholds like "Arachbro"

    We CAN create things that are new and interesting... we just choose the low effort route.

    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    [Deleted User]TwistedSister77

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Iselin said:
    You seem to have trouble with the concept of "overwhelming majority." 

    That concept includes exceptions, some of which are notable. It's why I didn't say "all." But 20 or so vs. 10,000... WTF difference does that make?

    Also.. how many POC women were in your list?

    And I can't believe you actually included supporting characters - love interests of the main white boy hero -  like Guinevere and Marian lol.


    You seem to have trouble with the concept of understanding/remembering civilization/history before the year 2020... and also understanding that supporting roles are sometimes far more important than the main. I included both historical and fictional examples hoping to show you the point but you obviously missed it entirely.

    You said you had a son who worked for Epic games a few years ago which means you must be around my age 45-50. How did you live to be that age and not learn any basic history before 1900? Literature in the form of art/story was/is a mostly European creation which is WHY there were no PoC main characters when there were NO PoC in their country at the time of writing those stories.. BUT J.R.R. Tolkien DID include the EAST men in his story because of India and they even rode elephants, remember?

    Supporting characters as you see them only as "love interests" played far bigger roles both historically AND in works of fiction than you seem to understand.. Without Guinevere & Marian both those stories would've been complete sausage fests... Why would anyone fight and die for a sausage fest? Without LADY of the lake how would Arthur get Excaliber and win? It could even be argued that the reason both main characters succeeded in those works of fiction was because of the supporting (female) characters.

    Wendy in Peter Pan IS the main character.

    Without Eowyn(sp?) in Lord of the Rings the Witch King of Angmar would've killed everyone and won the battle... Eowyn technically saved middle earth... a woman.

    Also remember that famous fellow from a long time ago who was/is definitely a main character but wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for his mother The Virgin Mary?

    How about those PoC Egyptian Goddesses everything from WARRIOR goddess to goddesses of the HUNT and LOVE...

    How about that Hindu god who's also pretty bad ass called Shiva THE DESTROYER also known as "The Great God" 150% most definitely a PoC... statues built.. a half woman.. get it?

    Women weren't placed as main characters in stories especially ones with combat because of any type of chauvinism as you claim but because it's unrealistic to believe a woman can lift 50+ pounds of armor and a 30+ pound sword. It wasn't LARP replica armor and swords. Here's a olde saying "If you can't lift a sword with one hand don't try". That was said because a 30lb sword that can be swung using one hand vs a person who has to use two hands means the battle is already won/lost. When a person who can swing using one hand decides to use two then the person using two can't defend against the force that's being unleashed upon them and they'll be defeated. If you want to sell books then making it completely unrealistic in that time would've been a terrible mistake for many reasons.

    [Deleted User]
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,040
    BTW-  I know this thread has little to do with Lost Ark... but kind of enjoyed my first day of it.   Not sold longterm yet, but not ruling it out.
    BLNXKyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • TheDalaiBombaTheDalaiBomba Member EpicPosts: 1,493
    Zegaloth said:
    Zegaloth said:
    To do that Slap, people would have to stop placing outsized importance on the "classics," which a subset of the population would then throw a fit about.
    Classics were not always classics.  All our current path does is prevent or at least hamper the creation of new “classics” which someday would be viewed the way LOTR is today...

    My main issue with this line of thinking is that no one seems to bat an eye when a classic gets a modern remake with a bunch of white people in it, but the moment a character is recast as a PoC that's when people start coming out the woodwork to complain about how "woke" culture is ruining everything.

    That is simply incorrect and a lazy generalization IMHO.  Sorry but I think it is.  People lost their shit about every single change to GoT (Where's Lady Stoneheart!!! Tyrion's nose should have been cut off!!! For fuck's sake even the dogs/wolves caused arguments).  You do not think that Star Trek remake got destroyed by fans?  If you honestly think that "no one seems to bat an eye" about ANY and every change/remake then I think that is simply disingenuous. 

    I can't speak for everyone, nor do I wish to... but as I said... if we put the same effort into making NEW characters and stories and IP instead of changing OLD ones.. the "problem" would take care of itself.

    Do I really need another Spiderman?  Why take the cheap way out and continue going back to the same well?  How about making a NEW Superhero movie?  And make it good... not some lame ass attempt.  I honestly do not care if the "next Spiderman" is white, brown, male, female or pig (yes there is a Spiderpig) because the simple fact that there will BE another one is incredibly silly and a waste of effort/opportunity.

    Because there was a West Side Story.. did not diminish Romeo and Juliet.  And it went on to become a classic all it's own.

    Are we truly this bereft of creative talent that we cannot create anything that is new and interesting?



    Do you think that PoC shouldn't have white role models? PoC like these things too. It's not hard to see that they would want to BE Spider-Man, not Arachbro. Sometimes creating your own "thing" isn't the same as being the thing you want to be, and I don't fault anyone for that.

    See this is just a fundamental difference.  Sure... I might like a story to be different... but then it's not the same story is it?

    Why does it have to be "the same thing"?  Why can't it be something better?  

    The highest grossing film of all time (last I checked) was Avatar.  An original IP.  (It's also my all time favorite Theme park area BTW...).  Maybe I thought parts of it were silly... maybe I hated the color blue...  So what?  THAT was the IP and the story... and it was original.. and it was a multi-billion dollar commercial success.

    Stop setting artificial barriers and low thresholds like "Arachbro"

    We CAN create things that are new and interesting... we just choose the low effort route.

    Dude, Avatar is literally Pocahontas In Space.
    Kyleran[Deleted User]ConstantineMerus
  • BLNXBLNX Member UncommonPosts: 275
    edited February 2022
    BTW-  I know this thread has little to do with Lost Ark... but kind of enjoyed my first day of it.   Not sold longterm yet, but not ruling it out.
    Keep the thread on topic please. This had no argument, insult, or catty remark.
    Kyleran[Deleted User]TwistedSister77
    In the King's Court, I choose to be the Jester.
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,134
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    BLNXScot[Deleted User]maskedweaselKyleranAsm0deuskitarad
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,040
    Zegaloth said:
    Zegaloth said:
    To do that Slap, people would have to stop placing outsized importance on the "classics," which a subset of the population would then throw a fit about.
    Classics were not always classics.  All our current path does is prevent or at least hamper the creation of new “classics” which someday would be viewed the way LOTR is today...

    My main issue with this line of thinking is that no one seems to bat an eye when a classic gets a modern remake with a bunch of white people in it, but the moment a character is recast as a PoC that's when people start coming out the woodwork to complain about how "woke" culture is ruining everything.

    That is simply incorrect and a lazy generalization IMHO.  Sorry but I think it is.  People lost their shit about every single change to GoT (Where's Lady Stoneheart!!! Tyrion's nose should have been cut off!!! For fuck's sake even the dogs/wolves caused arguments).  You do not think that Star Trek remake got destroyed by fans?  If you honestly think that "no one seems to bat an eye" about ANY and every change/remake then I think that is simply disingenuous. 

    I can't speak for everyone, nor do I wish to... but as I said... if we put the same effort into making NEW characters and stories and IP instead of changing OLD ones.. the "problem" would take care of itself.

    Do I really need another Spiderman?  Why take the cheap way out and continue going back to the same well?  How about making a NEW Superhero movie?  And make it good... not some lame ass attempt.  I honestly do not care if the "next Spiderman" is white, brown, male, female or pig (yes there is a Spiderpig) because the simple fact that there will BE another one is incredibly silly and a waste of effort/opportunity.

    Because there was a West Side Story.. did not diminish Romeo and Juliet.  And it went on to become a classic all it's own.

    Are we truly this bereft of creative talent that we cannot create anything that is new and interesting?



    Do you think that PoC shouldn't have white role models? PoC like these things too. It's not hard to see that they would want to BE Spider-Man, not Arachbro. Sometimes creating your own "thing" isn't the same as being the thing you want to be, and I don't fault anyone for that.

    See this is just a fundamental difference.  Sure... I might like a story to be different... but then it's not the same story is it?

    Why does it have to be "the same thing"?  Why can't it be something better?  

    The highest grossing film of all time (last I checked) was Avatar.  An original IP.  (It's also my all time favorite Theme park area BTW...).  Maybe I thought parts of it were silly... maybe I hated the color blue...  So what?  THAT was the IP and the story... and it was original.. and it was a multi-billion dollar commercial success.

    Stop setting artificial barriers and low thresholds like "Arachbro"

    We CAN create things that are new and interesting... we just choose the low effort route.

    Dude, Avatar is literally Pocahontas In Space.
    That is kind of my point... well.. it's NOT literally Pocahontas.  It is kind of the West Side Story vs Romeo and Juliette concept.   You CAN retell a story concept, make it your own, and also make a shit load of money while doing so.

    The alternative to changing a classic is not "Arachbro"... it's putting the time and effort required to make it into it's own thing 
    TheDalaiBombaKyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,040
    @Zegaloth Nope.  As I said a few posts back.  Total disconnect. You keep sticking to "skin color" as though that is the only item of worth.  It's sad when you try and frame an entire discussion around that.  I have explained ad nauseum and given distinct examples.  Fans do not like changes.  be it Tyrion's nose, Chekov's age, made up characters, or anything else.

    This isn't about what is legally allowed... by who owns what rights.   Nobody is disputing that changes CAN happen.

    I will always and forever believe that the West Side Story approach is the best.  But you feel free to  stick with Arachbro as the only alternative.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

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    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,040
    edited February 2022
    Zegaloth said:
    @Zegaloth Nope.  As I said a few posts back.  Total disconnect. You keep sticking to "skin color" as though that is the only item of worth.  It's sad when you try and frame an entire discussion around that.  I have explained ad nauseum and given distinct examples.  Fans do not like changes.  be it Tyrion's nose, Chekov's age, made up characters, or anything else.

    This isn't about what is legally allowed... by who owns what rights.   Nobody is disputing that changes CAN happen.

    I will always and forever believe that the West Side Story approach is the best.  But you feel free to  stick with Arachbro as the only alternative.

    Well considering you completely ignore answering questions like:

    "what's the difference between a white person voicing an asian character and a black person acting as a character?"

    It makes me think that isn't an issue for you, and if Asian characters being voiced by white people is fine to you, then what makes a black person playing a white character so different?
    I do not watch anime... I honestly have no context to answer.  If I were a fan and the character had a certain voice... and that voice changed.. I'd probably not like it.   That simple enough for you?

    You continue to cling to this "group" concept which is kind of pathetic.  You literally claimed that nobody ever complains if white actors switch roles or some nonsense like that.  FANS COMPLAIN when things change.  For you to obsessively focus on skin color as the only distinction says a lot...  Not sure if you actually read these forums.. but it should be obvious that FANS COMPLAIN ABOUT EVERYTHING.

    Anyhow.  I made my point repeatedly.  At this time it's obviously not going to sink in so I have no compulsion to "covert you" to my view that there are better and much more lucrative alternatives than Arachbro.

    As for me.. I'm going back into LostArk... with "censored" character art or not.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

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  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Zegaloth said:

    Lol. weapons didn't weigh 30+ pounds. The heaviest claymore wielded by a 7 foot Scottsman only 22 pounds. Most 1 handed swords weigh from 2.5lbs up to 10lbs. Anything heavier than that is going to tire you out no matter how strong you are.
    On top of that 50lb armor was rare. Well made plate armor like that would be reserved for high ranking knights.
    Most armor used by the average infantry was leather and chainmail if that. Sometimes just a shield and a spear.

    One of the reasons why women weren't allowed in combat is likely due to rape. It was and still is something that happens often in war. 1 in 4 women in the US Military experience sexual assault during their service from their own squad mates.

    I saw you mentioned Joan of Arc earlier, and you know how she was thanked for her service to the church and country? She was burned to death.







    What you wrote about that sword being "heaviest" isn't true/accurate.. I found the sword you were referencing and it was a 7 foot long Scottish sword NOT wielded by a 7 foot Scottsman lol AND 23lb... There's a sword that weighed 30+ pounds. I think it was Japanese but I could be wrong.

    What you wrote about armor doesn't change the fact that there's armor that does weigh 50+ pounds AND when you put it on feels much heavier. Even a grown man wearing full plate struggles to keep balance when performing the basic act of walking.. Imagine being a woman + wielding even that 22lb sword you mentioned vs a male with a 22lb sword.

    Joan of Arc was a person used to boost morale/walking propaganda... the Hollywood depiction of her is fairytale made up story. They killed her when she outlived her usefulness BUT that doesn't change the FACT that important MEN at one time did respect/listen/take her advice.

    That 'other' thing you mentioned is another in a long line of reasons why women were not doing battle and not made as main characters in stories that had combat.


  • fineflufffinefluff Member RarePosts: 561
    Men and women have different physiology and therefore are more suited towards different tasks similar to different types of ants in a colony. Thus, sex/gender locked classes is a better representation of the order found in nature: that form and function are related. When seen from this perspective, gender locking makes the game more immersive because it demonstrates that there is a natural order in that world and that the forms represented are not merely superficial costumes. However, since it is a fantasy world, the function of the form does not necessarily have to follow that of our world. But, because a relationship between form and function is represented, the player choice becomes more significant. We unconsciously pickup on the relationship and the choice holds more weight psychologically. This adds to the player investment in the world. For an RP experience, it is a superior design choice.
    ConstantineMerus
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    finefluff said:
    Men and women have different physiology and therefore are more suited towards different tasks similar to different types of ants in a colony. Thus, sex/gender locked classes is a better representation of the order found in nature: that form and function are related. When seen from this perspective, gender locking makes the game more immersive because it demonstrates that there is a natural order in that world and that the forms represented are not merely superficial costumes. However, since it is a fantasy world, the function of the form does not necessarily have to follow that of our world. But, because a relationship between form and function is represented, the player choice becomes more significant. We unconsciously pickup on the relationship and the choice holds more weight psychologically. This adds to the player investment in the world. For an RP experience, it is a superior design choice.
    If you compare eastern cinema to the west, they had women in warrior roles way before the west. While women in western movies were in need of saving, in the eastern movies women were the tough protagonist saving others. 

    I haven't seen all movies obviously, and I can't recall all of them. But even in Terminator (1984), Sarah O'Conner character was still the same stereotype, and it wasn't until Terminator II (1991) that she became the badass she was. 

    In the 70s and the 80s, eastern studios, the biggest one being Golden Harvest from Hong Kong, actually did scout US, UK, and Australia for female martial artists to star in their movies, and those women got their fame first in Hong Kong movies because they didn't had many opportunities in their own country. 

    Hong Kong cinema, with the long and strong history of producing action movies, became the cultural force that all other Asian countries followed. Even Japan, which already had an extremely rich cinema, started introducing female leads and female warriors in their movies, anime, and manga following that change. After martial arts movies, came war movies, crime movies, samurai movies, and so on. South Korea too followed the same trend, but was just got into the game and the fame later on, mostly in 2000s. 

    A western version of such movies is Kill Bill (2003), I know there have been other action movies with female protagonist, like Point of No Return (1993), but Kill Bill is the movie that really changed the game in the west. First famous (not first one) eastern one is Come Drink With Me (1966). 

    So while sexism does exist in the east, and Korea has like one of the highest in the world, but their art (whether cinema or video-games) is progressive and has been the pinnacle of change since the early 2000s. Of course there is a lot of room for improvement, but I think they are doing rather well overall. 

    I know I did a lot of references from the cinema, and not from video games. But they have always been rather close, both in the west and in the east. In my opinion, Japanese games have always been more inclusive. If count the hit games with a female protagonist which also became a series, Japanese ones outnumber the US, Canada, UK, France, combined. I mean when Assassin's Creed let players choose their gender everyone thought a revolution had happened in the gaming industry and that was in 2015! :)

    Game development in Korea follows their gaming culture. That's why there aren't that many Korean single-player games, but a lot of multiplayer and MMORPG games. They are REALLY into group play. I mean when I was there Starcraft had like the same cultural influence as Seinfeld, Sopranos, or Game of Thrones had in the west. Multiplayer competitive games are a major social activity in Korea. It is like Chess in Soviet Union. 

    Now this post isn't really aimed at anyone, I'm just replying to yours with some of my thoughts. 

    Of course, I am talking about the norm, not the exception. 
    [Deleted User]Scotfinefluff
    Constantine, The Console Poster

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 23,169
    edited February 2022
    finefluff said:
    Men and women have different physiology and therefore are more suited towards different tasks similar to different types of ants in a colony. Thus, sex/gender locked classes is a better representation of the order found in nature: that form and function are related. When seen from this perspective, gender locking makes the game more immersive because it demonstrates that there is a natural order in that world and that the forms represented are not merely superficial costumes. However, since it is a fantasy world, the function of the form does not necessarily have to follow that of our world. But, because a relationship between form and function is represented, the player choice becomes more significant. We unconsciously pickup on the relationship and the choice holds more weight psychologically. This adds to the player investment in the world. For an RP experience, it is a superior design choice.
    If you compare eastern cinema to the west, they had women in warrior roles way before the west. While women in western movies were in need of saving, in the eastern movies women were the tough protagonist saving others. 

    I haven't seen all movies obviously, and I can't recall all of them. But even in Terminator (1984), Sarah O'Conner character was still the same stereotype, and it wasn't until Terminator II (1991) that she became the badass she was. 

    In the 70s and the 80s, eastern studios, the biggest one being Golden Harvest from Hong Kong, actually did scout US, UK, and Australia for female martial artists to star in their movies, and those women got their fame first in Hong Kong movies because they didn't had many opportunities in their own country. 

    Hong Kong cinema, with the long and strong history of producing action movies, became the cultural force that all other Asian countries followed. Even Japan, which already had an extremely rich cinema, started introducing female leads and female warriors in their movies, anime, and manga following that change. After martial arts movies, came war movies, crime movies, samurai movies, and so on. South Korea too followed the same trend, but was just got into the game and the fame later on, mostly in 2000s. 

    A western version of such movies is Kill Bill (2003), I know there have been other action movies with female protagonist, like Point of No Return (1993), but Kill Bill is the movie that really changed the game in the west. First famous (not first one) eastern one is Come Drink With Me (1966). 

    So while sexism does exist in the east, and Korea has like one of the highest in the world, but their art (whether cinema or video-games) is progressive and has been the pinnacle of change since the early 2000s. Of course there is a lot of room for improvement, but I think they are doing rather well overall. 

    I know I did a lot of references from the cinema, and not from video games. But they have always been rather close, both in the west and in the east. In my opinion, Japanese games have always been more inclusive. If count the hit games with a female protagonist which also became a series, Japanese ones outnumber the US, Canada, UK, France, combined. I mean when Assassin's Creed let players choose their gender everyone thought a revolution had happened in the gaming industry and that was in 2015! :)

    Game development in Korea follows their gaming culture. That's why there aren't that many Korean single-player games, but a lot of multiplayer and MMORPG games. They are REALLY into group play. I mean when I was there Starcraft had like the same cultural influence as Seinfeld, Sopranos, or Game of Thrones had in the west. Multiplayer competitive games are a major social activity in Korea. It is like Chess in Soviet Union. 

    Now this post isn't really aimed at anyone, I'm just replying to yours with some of my thoughts. 

    Of course, I am talking about the norm, not the exception. 
    Fan of 80's/90's Hong Kong action movies here, they certainly had women fighters in lead roles first, then later Japan but I am not sure that's true of anywhere else in the far east?

    Western cinema was lifting that and more from HK by the end of the 90's. If you look at the way protagonists in western movies fight, you will see that so many of them have an array of martial arts moves that they never had before. In some Western films they are just like those old HK films, you don't have to be special forces, a cop or have any reason for martial training, you can just do it. An everyday Joe can do a head kick if he is the lead in a film.

    What was not lifted was the really way out stuff like running up a spray of bullets or running along walls and slapping down on a foe. But in films over here where reality is bent like the Matrix, any such moves can be seen.

    This replaced combat which I would describe as "brawling" more than boxing. But we used to have some really great "gritty" combat in films that we started to see less of as we headed to the nineties. Look no further than James Bond, Connery was quite capable of dirty fighting, by the time of Moore the combat was more sanitised.

    Martial arts combat looks better, and allows fight choreographers to put on more spectacle to my mind. Brawling was more "realistic" but then we are dealing with cinematic reality here.
    Post edited by Scot on
    ConstantineMerus[Deleted User]
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Scot said:
    finefluff said:
    Men and women have different physiology and therefore are more suited towards different tasks similar to different types of ants in a colony. Thus, sex/gender locked classes is a better representation of the order found in nature: that form and function are related. When seen from this perspective, gender locking makes the game more immersive because it demonstrates that there is a natural order in that world and that the forms represented are not merely superficial costumes. However, since it is a fantasy world, the function of the form does not necessarily have to follow that of our world. But, because a relationship between form and function is represented, the player choice becomes more significant. We unconsciously pickup on the relationship and the choice holds more weight psychologically. This adds to the player investment in the world. For an RP experience, it is a superior design choice.
    If you compare eastern cinema to the west, they had women in warrior roles way before the west. While women in western movies were in need of saving, in the eastern movies women were the tough protagonist saving others. 

    I haven't seen all movies obviously, and I can't recall all of them. But even in Terminator (1984), Sarah O'Conner character was still the same stereotype, and it wasn't until Terminator II (1991) that she became the badass she was. 

    In the 70s and the 80s, eastern studios, the biggest one being Golden Harvest from Hong Kong, actually did scout US, UK, and Australia for female martial artists to star in their movies, and those women got their fame first in Hong Kong movies because they didn't had many opportunities in their own country. 

    Hong Kong cinema, with the long and strong history of producing action movies, became the cultural force that all other Asian countries followed. Even Japan, which already had an extremely rich cinema, started introducing female leads and female warriors in their movies, anime, and manga following that change. After martial arts movies, came war movies, crime movies, samurai movies, and so on. South Korea too followed the same trend, but was just got into the game and the fame later on, mostly in 2000s. 

    A western version of such movies is Kill Bill (2003), I know there have been other action movies with female protagonist, like Point of No Return (1993), but Kill Bill is the movie that really changed the game in the west. First famous (not first one) eastern one is Come Drink With Me (1966). 

    So while sexism does exist in the east, and Korea has like one of the highest in the world, but their art (whether cinema or video-games) is progressive and has been the pinnacle of change since the early 2000s. Of course there is a lot of room for improvement, but I think they are doing rather well overall. 

    I know I did a lot of references from the cinema, and not from video games. But they have always been rather close, both in the west and in the east. In my opinion, Japanese games have always been more inclusive. If count the hit games with a female protagonist which also became a series, Japanese ones outnumber the US, Canada, UK, France, combined. I mean when Assassin's Creed let players choose their gender everyone thought a revolution had happened in the gaming industry and that was in 2015! :)

    Game development in Korea follows their gaming culture. That's why there aren't that many Korean single-player games, but a lot of multiplayer and MMORPG games. They are REALLY into group play. I mean when I was there Starcraft had like the same cultural influence as Seinfeld, Sopranos, or Game of Thrones had in the west. Multiplayer competitive games are a major social activity in Korea. It is like Chess in Soviet Union. 

    Now this post isn't really aimed at anyone, I'm just replying to yours with some of my thoughts. 

    Of course, I am talking about the norm, not the exception. 
    Fan of 80's/90's Hong Kong action movies here, they certainly had women fighters in lead roles first, then later Japan but I am not sure that's true of anywhere else in the far east?

    Western cinema was lifting that and more from HK by the end of the 90's. If you look at the way protagonists in western movies fight, you will see that so many of them have an array of martial arts moves that they never had before. In some Western films they are just like those old HK films, you don't have to be special forces, a cop or have any reason for martial training, you can just do it. An everyday Joe can do a head kick if he is the lead in a film.

    What was not lifted was the really way out stuff like running up a spray of bullets or running along walls and slapping down on a foe. But in films over here where reality is bent like the Matrix, any such moves can be seen.

    This replaced combat which I would describe as "brawling" more than boxing. But we used to have some really great "gritty" combat in films that we started to see less of as we headed to the nineties. Look no further than James Bond, Connery was quite capable of dirty fighting, by the time of Moore the combat was more sanitised.

    Martial arts combat looks better, and allows fight choreographers to put on more spectacle so to my mind. Brawling was more "realistic" but then we are dealing with cinema reality here.
    I think the big difference is in Hong Kong movies it was the martial artists who became actors, but in the west the other way around. Like the whole Matrix cast trained (for a year?) to be able to fight. But yeah, can't really compare them. Because people like Cynthia Rothrock or Richard Norton trained since their childhood and they were actual masters with awards in their field. So can't really compare it with an actor who trains for few months in their adulthood. 

    I'm glad that you are also a fan. We should definitely exchange some notes! :)

    Yes, it was during the Moore era that they decided to make James Bond more of a funny man with the "British" way of fighting! ;) Then again that changed with Daniel Craig. 

    If you check the credits of many action movies you'd still find some famous choreographers from Hong Kong. But in the end, the actors' capabilities would really limit how realistic or fluid fighting scenes. Right now we got like 17 cuts during one punch! :) 
    Scot[Deleted User]
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,596
    finefluff said:
    Men and women have different physiology and therefore are more suited towards different tasks similar to different types of ants in a colony. Thus, sex/gender locked classes is a better representation of the order found in nature: that form and function are related. When seen from this perspective, gender locking makes the game more immersive because it demonstrates that there is a natural order in that world and that the forms represented are not merely superficial costumes. However, since it is a fantasy world, the function of the form does not necessarily have to follow that of our world. But, because a relationship between form and function is represented, the player choice becomes more significant. We unconsciously pickup on the relationship and the choice holds more weight psychologically. This adds to the player investment in the world. For an RP experience, it is a superior design choice.
    If you compare eastern cinema to the west, they had women in warrior roles way before the west. While women in western movies were in need of saving, in the eastern movies women were the tough protagonist saving others. 

    I haven't seen all movies obviously, and I can't recall all of them. But even in Terminator (1984), Sarah O'Conner character was still the same stereotype, and it wasn't until Terminator II (1991) that she became the badass she was. 

    In the 70s and the 80s, eastern studios, the biggest one being Golden Harvest from Hong Kong, actually did scout US, UK, and Australia for female martial artists to star in their movies, and those women got their fame first in Hong Kong movies because they didn't had many opportunities in their own country. 

    Hong Kong cinema, with the long and strong history of producing action movies, became the cultural force that all other Asian countries followed. Even Japan, which already had an extremely rich cinema, started introducing female leads and female warriors in their movies, anime, and manga following that change. After martial arts movies, came war movies, crime movies, samurai movies, and so on. South Korea too followed the same trend, but was just got into the game and the fame later on, mostly in 2000s. 

    A western version of such movies is Kill Bill (2003), I know there have been other action movies with female protagonist, like Point of No Return (1993), but Kill Bill is the movie that really changed the game in the west. First famous (not first one) eastern one is Come Drink With Me (1966). 

    So while sexism does exist in the east, and Korea has like one of the highest in the world, but their art (whether cinema or video-games) is progressive and has been the pinnacle of change since the early 2000s. Of course there is a lot of room for improvement, but I think they are doing rather well overall. 

    I know I did a lot of references from the cinema, and not from video games. But they have always been rather close, both in the west and in the east. In my opinion, Japanese games have always been more inclusive. If count the hit games with a female protagonist which also became a series, Japanese ones outnumber the US, Canada, UK, France, combined. I mean when Assassin's Creed let players choose their gender everyone thought a revolution had happened in the gaming industry and that was in 2015! :)

    Game development in Korea follows their gaming culture. That's why there aren't that many Korean single-player games, but a lot of multiplayer and MMORPG games. They are REALLY into group play. I mean when I was there Starcraft had like the same cultural influence as Seinfeld, Sopranos, or Game of Thrones had in the west. Multiplayer competitive games are a major social activity in Korea. It is like Chess in Soviet Union. 

    Now this post isn't really aimed at anyone, I'm just replying to yours with some of my thoughts. 

    Of course, I am talking about the norm, not the exception. 
    Kill Bill didn't start anything, Xena, Warrior Princess (1995) was the original female bad ass on US TV.

    Oh yes, she could also kick high.  ;)



    Used to tell the wife I watched it for "the stories."

     B) 


    kitarad[Deleted User]ScotTwistedSister77[Deleted User]

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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,962
    I loved Xena one of my favourite shows.

  • fineflufffinefluff Member RarePosts: 561
    finefluff said:
    Men and women have different physiology and therefore are more suited towards different tasks similar to different types of ants in a colony. Thus, sex/gender locked classes is a better representation of the order found in nature: that form and function are related. When seen from this perspective, gender locking makes the game more immersive because it demonstrates that there is a natural order in that world and that the forms represented are not merely superficial costumes. However, since it is a fantasy world, the function of the form does not necessarily have to follow that of our world. But, because a relationship between form and function is represented, the player choice becomes more significant. We unconsciously pickup on the relationship and the choice holds more weight psychologically. This adds to the player investment in the world. For an RP experience, it is a superior design choice.
    If you compare eastern cinema to the west, they had women in warrior roles way before the west. While women in western movies were in need of saving, in the eastern movies women were the tough protagonist saving others. 

    I haven't seen all movies obviously, and I can't recall all of them. But even in Terminator (1984), Sarah O'Conner character was still the same stereotype, and it wasn't until Terminator II (1991) that she became the badass she was. 

    In the 70s and the 80s, eastern studios, the biggest one being Golden Harvest from Hong Kong, actually did scout US, UK, and Australia for female martial artists to star in their movies, and those women got their fame first in Hong Kong movies because they didn't had many opportunities in their own country. 

    Hong Kong cinema, with the long and strong history of producing action movies, became the cultural force that all other Asian countries followed. Even Japan, which already had an extremely rich cinema, started introducing female leads and female warriors in their movies, anime, and manga following that change. After martial arts movies, came war movies, crime movies, samurai movies, and so on. South Korea too followed the same trend, but was just got into the game and the fame later on, mostly in 2000s. 

    A western version of such movies is Kill Bill (2003), I know there have been other action movies with female protagonist, like Point of No Return (1993), but Kill Bill is the movie that really changed the game in the west. First famous (not first one) eastern one is Come Drink With Me (1966). 

    So while sexism does exist in the east, and Korea has like one of the highest in the world, but their art (whether cinema or video-games) is progressive and has been the pinnacle of change since the early 2000s. Of course there is a lot of room for improvement, but I think they are doing rather well overall. 

    I know I did a lot of references from the cinema, and not from video games. But they have always been rather close, both in the west and in the east. In my opinion, Japanese games have always been more inclusive. If count the hit games with a female protagonist which also became a series, Japanese ones outnumber the US, Canada, UK, France, combined. I mean when Assassin's Creed let players choose their gender everyone thought a revolution had happened in the gaming industry and that was in 2015! :)

    Game development in Korea follows their gaming culture. That's why there aren't that many Korean single-player games, but a lot of multiplayer and MMORPG games. They are REALLY into group play. I mean when I was there Starcraft had like the same cultural influence as Seinfeld, Sopranos, or Game of Thrones had in the west. Multiplayer competitive games are a major social activity in Korea. It is like Chess in Soviet Union. 

    Now this post isn't really aimed at anyone, I'm just replying to yours with some of my thoughts. 

    Of course, I am talking about the norm, not the exception. 
    Like games, movies represent a fantasy where the rules of the world and capabilities of the characters can be whatever the director desires. What characters can achieve in those worlds don't necessarily reflect what they could do in reality. But you bring up a good point, which is that men and women can perform many of the same tasks. Both men and women can fight, for example.

    I think back to the many fights I observed in high school and middle school (unfortunately). Fights between boys involved more punching and tackling, while fights between girls involved more scratching and hairpulling. Both were performing the same task of fighting but in their own way.

    Of course, nobody really knew anything about fighting. Most just wildly flung their arms about. But there was an observable difference. This difference came about because they  just did what felt natural to them. In other words, their performance of the task was a result of their physiology. We see this difference manifest mostly in physical activity, such as sports, where different classes are needed for men and women.

    For example, in Europe's strongest man competition, men are deadlifting 360 kg (nearly 800lbs) for multiple repetitions. This weight is already far beyond the women's world record. Women would not be able to compete in this competition alongside men because their physiology is simply not as capable. They are not as suited for this task as males. When it comes to physical activity, the average male simply dominates the average female.

    Translating this to a game, there are both men and women fighters (heroes) in lost ark, but they do their fighting differently. There is a male exclusive class that fights with a ridiculously giant sword, and then there are assassin and mage classes that are exclusively female. There are also male and female variations for the fist weapon and gunwielding classes, which from what I understand play slightly differently. 

    Is this game sexist against males because there are no male mages? (Are we too stupid for magic?) No. Is this game sexist against females because there is no female giant sword berserker. No. The design choices are not the result of an unnatural bias, but the result of recognizing a natural order. Given that it is a fantasy, however, this order can be whatever we want. It adds more character to the world in the same way that racial bonuses do in WoW (Is WoW racist for racial bonuses?) Another way instead of gender locking could be gender bonuses. But gender locking is done for practical development reasons as well, so that is something to take into consideration.

    I feel that this topic is related to that of homogenization. The desire for distinct classes is something mmo players have always asked for. Well, gender locking is one way to make them more distinct. It makes the choice of gender less superficial, adding more depth.




  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,040
    Well looks like we lost another one.  Looks like Zegoloth deleted his account.
    Sad.

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  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited February 2022

    I personally enjoyed a lot of African Amerinan movies.. especially groundbreaking ones (Boys N Hood, Friday movies, Lion King, Glory, 7 years, Tarantino films...etc. )

    I literally have zero idea what this Lost Ark issue is... I did watch Arcade on Netflix and it was a new IP that was well done  (that pretty much is very diverse). This is how it should be done, not retcon'ng authors for diversity sake.

    Tolkien stated he was writing a mythology for the English people (meaning England 1900s)... so I'm confused...

    Should they reboot BoysNHood with white gangbangers... I'm sure everyone would be awesome with that?  We know the answer...

    There are awesome stories from African culture... and around the world.

    My position, don't slip in characters into an existing IP for a particular message... it's just a different culture.

    The shame is, I really enjoy different cultures when I travel around the world... let's not homogenize them completely. 

    Yeah I'm a terrible person for acknowledging cultures should be preserved and not put in a smoothie blender.  

    They did create a white gangbangers movie, btw.  It's called The Town, starring Ben Affleck.  Good movie, too.
    Thanks, you agreed.  The Town is a different IP... it was not launched as titled "BoysNHood"... or "BoysNHood 2".. and swapping cast for different cultures.

    PS - decent movie, I've seen it.  
  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 11,219
    Shut off chat. Going as expected. xD I expect it to get worse tomorrow. Prepare for the "I was  banned for no reason, I swear" tears on the forums.
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    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,436
    edited February 2022
    Torval said:
    Well looks like we lost another one.  Looks like Zegoloth deleted his account.
    Sad.


    I'm not surprised. Things can get nasty here really quickly and it often doesn't feel worth the effort.

    Yeah we can be quite the bunch of meanies,  I try to watch out for posts after I got "into it" with others to like, insightful or awesome to show I am not holding a grudge whether I think I was right or not. Without stalking them though! lol

    Lets face it we get grr arghh at times and/or put our feet in our mouths.
    [Deleted User][Deleted User]

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  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited February 2022


    I haven't seen all movies obviously, and I can't recall all of them. But even in Terminator (1984), Sarah O'Conner character was still the same stereotype, and it wasn't until Terminator II (1991) that she became the badass she was. 

    My opinion- 

    The character Sarah was incredible in the first movie, having watched it 30+ times before T2 was even released (it was on broadcast TV stations all the time).

    A simple waitress is hunted by an unbeatable force from the future... a future that she finds out is Armageddon.

    The Terminator literally destroys everything in it's path... a body builder boyfriend in the beginning (of a different Sarah)... to an entire policeforce.. and the "male savior" from the future also is killed... and incredible mind bending plot twist that he is John's father (John sent his dad back to die so he can be born... great paradox).

    She kills the Terminator in the final scene... that nobody else could!

    All in just a few days of movie timeline!

    Was a waitress supposed to learn how to become a master in martial arts and weapons in just a few days?  One of the appeals of the movie was that the Terminator can come for even the most modest unassuming people.

    Her character progression to T2 Sarah (14+ years later) is highly plausible given what she went through and knows.  

    This is great writing for a character's development.

    PS - thank goodness The Terminator wasn't sent against a macho male who was the father of the resistance... he might have fought back before knowing the enemy.. and died instantly (See T2 beginning scenes of the biker bar).

    Dang, now I'm off to boot those movies up for the XX time.
    Asm0deus[Deleted User]cheyane
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited February 2022


    I haven't seen all movies obviously, and I can't recall all of them. But even in Terminator (1984), Sarah O'Conner character was still the same stereotype, and it wasn't until Terminator II (1991) that she became the badass she was. 

    My opinion- 

    The character Sarah was incredible in the first movie, having watched it 30+ times before T2 was even released (it was on broadcast TV stations all the time).

    A simple waitress is hunted by an unbeatable force from the future... a future that she finds out is Armageddon.

    The Terminator literally destroys everything in it's path... a body builder boyfriend in the beginning (of a different Sarah)... to an entire policeforce.. and the "male savior" from the future also is killed... and incredible mind bending plot twist that he is John's father (John sent his dad back to die so he can be born... great paradox).

    She kills the Terminator in the final scene... that nobody else could!

    All in just a few days of movie timeline!

    Was a waitress supposed to learn how to become a master in martial arts and weapons in just a few days?  One of the appeals of the movie was that the Terminator can come for even the most modest unassuming people.

    Her character progression to T2 Sarah (14+ years later) is highly plausible given what she went through and knows.  

    This is great writing for a character's development.

    PS - thank goodness The Terminator wasn't sent against a macho male who was the father of the resistance... he might have fought back before knowing the enemy.. and died instantly (See T2 beginning scenes of the biker bar).

    Dang, now I'm off to boot those movies up for the XX time.
    FYI- T2 and many expansions ( which I'm not the hugest fan of) are on Netflix... why do I mention this?  I have accounts for a lot of streaming services... this was the one to view without rental $...

    If I boot up my DVD, it would be in 480 resolution... not even HD and I will awake the household (putting a big screen on blast).

    The original T1 is not on Amazon/HBOmax/Starz.. etc... I'm sure it's somewhere... 

    FYI - a punk tweenier boy is dictating most of the decisions throughout the movie... at the time, few people were upset.   ;)
This discussion has been closed.