A public call for MJ to drop the NDA

Nilden

Slapshot1188 said:

Nilden said:

If they had anything worth showing they would show it. 

They don't. There is no way they are going to drop the NDA on this. The last news letter almost 9 years in was concept art and sounds.

The second game they tried got released in early access with 3 players.

This is a dumpster fire with wet wool socks, old diapers and a dead raccoon with gas on it. Getting rid of the NDA is basically asking to open the lid. 

I would say this is another Crowfall in the making but that would be being mean to Crowfall which actually launched.

Not only do I agree with Ungood that this is silly I would add the Jameson "Are you serious?" meme

So you are saying that if they release the NDA they might go down from 3 players to 2?

They had 3 players peak on one day. It's been zero the entire rest of the time.

It would be much more accurate to just call the game dead with no players.

Of course we are talking about lifting the NDA on the main game so that doesn't even matter and is pointless to bring up.

The main game that is showing concept art and sounds almost 9 years in. They have nothing. Wait I stand corrected they definitely have a pile of concept art.

Your request is pointless. Laughably so.

Nilden

If Mark Jacobs does show up and announces that he is lifting the NDA I'll take a month worth of yoga classes so I can kick myself in the balls.

YashaX

I agree that lifting the NDA would be a good idea. It might give some of the backers motivation to log into the test servers, and being able to discuss the game candidly with various people on public forums might create a bit of a buzz.

If after nearly 10 years and 3-4 years since the "beta" launch they are not ready to lift the NDA then I think its time to give up on this project and request a refund (if you backed it).

ConstantineMerus

Nilden said:

If Mark Jacobs does show up and announces that he is lifting the NDA I'll take a month worth of yoga classes so I can kick myself in the balls.

Sorry to disappoint you mate, but you need at least 6 months to reach that stage of nirvana. 

Mendel

Ungood said:

Scot said:

I see this as devil and the deep blue sea, not sure how they are benefiting from such a long NDA, not sure they would gain anything by lifting it.

That's the thing, they don't gain anything by lifting it, so they have no reason to do so.

If there is any value added to developer transparency, then remove the NDA.  I doubt that has any value a company, though.  That's a concept of 'customer relations' that modern companies, especially those in the game development sector, seem to eschew.  I know I'd respect a developer who is in a mess and admits it.

Still not interested in their game, however.

Celcius

They have done virtually no marketing on the game at all and lifting the NDA would only upset the few people that are still following the game. There really is no point. If the game ever is approaching release then they could market it and push things like an nda free open beta,ect. 
I also think you are overestimating the marketing powers of a site like this one or Massively. You can call it marketing when a site like PC Gamer or IGN covers it. Not these. Hell, I would say that doing sponsorship deals with youtubers would be more marketing then this niche ass website. 
Reality check though is that this probably never coming out and MJ will quietly slither off to another project. 

YashaX

Celcius said:

They have done virtually no marketing on the game at all and lifting the NDA would only upset the few people that are still following the game. There really is no point. If the game ever is approaching release then they could market it and push things like an nda free open beta,ect. 

Reality check though is that this probably never coming out and MJ will quietly slither off to another project. 

I don't think lifting the NDA would "upset the few people still following the game" - as can be evidenced by this thread itself, many would probably welcome it.

I agree that the game is unlikely to come out, not sure if the developer will ever recover from this one though.

Celcius

YashaX said:

Celcius said:

They have done virtually no marketing on the game at all and lifting the NDA would only upset the few people that are still following the game. There really is no point. If the game ever is approaching release then they could market it and push things like an nda free open beta,ect. 

Reality check though is that this probably never coming out and MJ will quietly slither off to another project. 

I don't think lifting the NDA would "upset the few people still following the game" - as can be evidenced by this thread itself, many would probably welcome it.

I agree that the game is unlikely to come out, not sure if the developer will ever recover from this one though.

You might be right, but you only get one first impression. If people see something that looks really bad after being in development for nearly a decade they will probably write it off and never look back. I also don't really feel like a thread on this forum represents the majority of opinions on the subject..

Quite frankly, at this point, most people who backed the game probably forgot they backed it.  

Ungood

Mendel said:

Ungood said:

Scot said:

I see this as devil and the deep blue sea, not sure how they are benefiting from such a long NDA, not sure they would gain anything by lifting it.

That's the thing, they don't gain anything by lifting it, so they have no reason to do so.

If there is any value added to developer transparency, then remove the NDA.  I doubt that has any value a company, though.  That's a concept of 'customer relations' that modern companies, especially those in the game development sector, seem to eschew.  I know I'd respect a developer who is in a mess and admits it.

Still not interested in their game, however.

As others have said, and it's pretty much an ongoing theme, if they had something good going down the pipes, they would let everyone know.

If they wanted this game talked about, they would put in the effort to get it talked about.

As far as game company transparency, That's kinda of a mixed bag. It seems like a game these developers play to not want to give out info, like with the rise of F2P, all of a sudden no one is talking about how many active players they have, and now it's all some cloak and dagger hush hush bullshit.

Personally, I find it a bit silly, but I also wonder how many players would in fact jump ship simply because the active player count dropped.

Although, anyone that shallow, like, dude, why the fuck you even playing? 

ConstantineMerus

Ungood said:

Mendel said:

Ungood said:

Scot said:

I see this as devil and the deep blue sea, not sure how they are benefiting from such a long NDA, not sure they would gain anything by lifting it.

That's the thing, they don't gain anything by lifting it, so they have no reason to do so.

If there is any value added to developer transparency, then remove the NDA.  I doubt that has any value a company, though.  That's a concept of 'customer relations' that modern companies, especially those in the game development sector, seem to eschew.  I know I'd respect a developer who is in a mess and admits it.

Still not interested in their game, however.

As others have said, and it's pretty much an ongoing theme, if they had something good going down the pipes, they would let everyone know.

If they wanted this game talked about, they would put in the effort to get it talked about.

As far as game company transparency, That's kinda of a mixed bag. It seems like a game these developers play to not want to give out info, like with the rise of F2P, all of a sudden no one is talking about how many active players they have, and now it's all some cloak and dagger hush hush bullshit.

Personally, I find it a bit silly, but I also wonder how many players would in fact jump ship simply because the active player count dropped.

Although, anyone that shallow, like, dude, why the fuck you even playing? 

One thing about sub numbers is that it won't be like players learning about the low numbers then leave, but they compare it to another game which is more popular and believe maybe that's a better option, which usually is a correct assessment for most people. 

nurso

Celcius said:

I also think you are overestimating the marketing powers of a site like this one or Massively. You can call it marketing when a site like PC Gamer or IGN covers it. Not these. Hell, I would say that doing sponsorship deals with youtubers would be more marketing then this niche ass website.

Which is pretty funny given the strange "demonstration of power" (no idea what else to call it) by the editor-in-chief of MOP towards MJ.

Slapshot1188

nurso said:

Celcius said:

I also think you are overestimating the marketing powers of a site like this one or Massively. You can call it marketing when a site like PC Gamer or IGN covers it. Not these. Hell, I would say that doing sponsorship deals with youtubers would be more marketing then this niche ass website.

Which is pretty funny given the strange "demonstration of power" (no idea what else to call it) by the editor-in-chief of MOP towards MJ.

I go to MOP less and less.  Now it's maybe once every few weeks.  This place gets a bad rap but THAT place is just straight up toxic unless you fall 100% in line with the group-think there.

nurso

tzervo said:

If you are talking about this:

Camelot Unchained boss rebuts theory that its studio finances are in disarray | Massively Overpowered (massivelyop.com) (see comments)

MJ was at fault imo because he tried to strong-arm her into hiding a question from an interview, and when she said she could include it with a "no comment" from his side, he refused to give the whole interview. The interviewer cannot be making demands on the questions, as long as they are not offensive, otherwise there is no point.

Although I do find the "holier-than-thou" attitude of her and her "entourage" insufferable, and she did start a passive-aggressive flame crusade against him afterwards for many months out of spite.

Yes. Added to this would be, among other things

• the constant reference to the not-yet-answered interview as an addendum under earlier articles
• the publication and toleration of insinuating content & comments

And no, I don't see it as MJ trying to pressure her to omit a question from an interview. His legal team advised him against answering one specific question. And he followed that advice. The editor-in-chief then got upset because MJ didn't want her to make him look like he was maliciously refusing to comment. See https://massivelyop.com/2021/07/16/camelot-unchained-boss-rebuts-theory-that-its-studio-finances-are-in-disarray/#comment-816304

TheDalaiBomba

tzervo said:

nurso said:

Which is pretty funny given the strange "demonstration of power" (no idea what else to call it) by the editor-in-chief of MOP towards MJ.

If you are talking about this:

Camelot Unchained boss rebuts theory that its studio finances are in disarray | Massively Overpowered (massivelyop.com) (see comments)

MJ was at fault imo because he tried to strong-arm her into hiding a question from an interview, and when she said she could include it with a "no comment" from his side, he refused to give the whole interview. The interviewer cannot be making demands on the questions, as long as they are not offensive, otherwise there is no point.

Although I do find the "holier-than-thou" attitude of her and her "entourage" insufferable, and she did start a passive-aggressive flame crusade against him afterwards for many months out of spite.

It is a common practice for interviewees to make demands such as "don't ask this question, don't go into this topic" when considering an interview.

Usually, these things are worked out prior to the interview event so that everyone is on the same page.  But if it isn't, or if the interviewer steps outside the framework laid out, it is absolutely in the interviewees right to end the interview and/or refuse future interviews.

And yea, that's shit for those who just want the truth from talking heads.  But if you tried to enforce a no holds barred rule, you'd just get far less interviews in general.

Nilden

Ungood said:

Mendel said:

Ungood said:

Scot said:

I see this as devil and the deep blue sea, not sure how they are benefiting from such a long NDA, not sure they would gain anything by lifting it.

That's the thing, they don't gain anything by lifting it, so they have no reason to do so.

If there is any value added to developer transparency, then remove the NDA.  I doubt that has any value a company, though.  That's a concept of 'customer relations' that modern companies, especially those in the game development sector, seem to eschew.  I know I'd respect a developer who is in a mess and admits it.

Still not interested in their game, however.

As others have said, and it's pretty much an ongoing theme, if they had something good going down the pipes, they would let everyone know.

If they wanted this game talked about, they would put in the effort to get it talked about.

As far as game company transparency, That's kinda of a mixed bag. It seems like a game these developers play to not want to give out info, like with the rise of F2P, all of a sudden no one is talking about how many active players they have, and now it's all some cloak and dagger hush hush bullshit.

Personally, I find it a bit silly, but I also wonder how many players would in fact jump ship simply because the active player count dropped.

Although, anyone that shallow, like, dude, why the fuck you even playing? 

I really think you got this backwards. The active player count dropping is not a cause. It's a symptom.

Something probably changed and the game sucks and half your guild left. So now you are leaving. Not because the active players are dropping but because the game sucks and half your guild is gone.

Ungood

Nilden said:

Ungood said:

Mendel said:

Ungood said:

Scot said:

I see this as devil and the deep blue sea, not sure how they are benefiting from such a long NDA, not sure they would gain anything by lifting it.

That's the thing, they don't gain anything by lifting it, so they have no reason to do so.

If there is any value added to developer transparency, then remove the NDA.  I doubt that has any value a company, though.  That's a concept of 'customer relations' that modern companies, especially those in the game development sector, seem to eschew.  I know I'd respect a developer who is in a mess and admits it.

Still not interested in their game, however.

As others have said, and it's pretty much an ongoing theme, if they had something good going down the pipes, they would let everyone know.

If they wanted this game talked about, they would put in the effort to get it talked about.

As far as game company transparency, That's kinda of a mixed bag. It seems like a game these developers play to not want to give out info, like with the rise of F2P, all of a sudden no one is talking about how many active players they have, and now it's all some cloak and dagger hush hush bullshit.

Personally, I find it a bit silly, but I also wonder how many players would in fact jump ship simply because the active player count dropped.

Although, anyone that shallow, like, dude, why the fuck you even playing? 

I really think you got this backwards. The active player count dropping is not a cause. It's a symptom.

Something probably changed and the game sucks and half your guild left. So now you are leaving. Not because the active players are dropping but because the game sucks and half your guild is gone.

I commonly play with a small static, we sometimes join larger guilds when it suits our needs, other times we form our own little band, depends on the game and what will be the best for us.

With that said, Gonne be dead honest, if that band of loons left a game, it would not matter if the population was 10K, or 10 Million.. I would leave with my Static.

I get that I am not the market in that regard, but then again, I am playing DDO, which is not a huge ass popular game, and that might be why it makes no sense to me to play some game where they refuse to release the numbers.

Equally so, they don't gain anything giving out the numbers to the plebeians either, so there is that I guess.

Just always found it odd that after the rise to F2P, suddenly everyone is trying to keep their numbers all hush hush, when before game companies would brag about their subs.

Meh.. more just a pondering really.

ILLISET

Slapshot1188 said:

@MarkJacobs

It is now closing in on 9 years since the Kickstarter.  Much that has happened has been hard to control or predict.  I will not argue those points.  The fact remains however, that the Kickstarter launched in April 2013.  The original ETA was Dec 2015.  During all this time I (and many others) have kept the faith and not broken NDA.

It's been long enough though.

You may not be able to release the game at this time, but you absolutely, 100% can drop the NDA.

At worst, you will get more bad press coverage.  Big deal.  It's not like the coverage has been positive these last few years.

At best, it might stir up more discussions and conversations.  Maybe some actual TheoryCrafting.  All of that is stifled and shut by this near decades long NDA...

There are no trade secrets being saved via the NDA and there is no PR benefit.  It serves no purpose any longer.

Take this opportunity to start 2022 in a new way.  Let the world see, warts and all, the fruit of your labor.  Let honest and open discussions begin and then maybe, some goodwill will develop and folks can see with their own eyes if progress is being made.

Or... you can keep doing the same thing... I think it's the clear choice.

I 100% agree with this.  It would be very nice to be able to tell everyone the raw truth about what's going on with the game.  

nurso

ILLISET said:

I 100% agree with this.  It would be very nice to be able to tell everyone the raw truth about what's going on with the game.  

I don't understand why monthly newsletters aren't enough ... why does everyone and his dog feel entitled to have insight into a private business?

Slapshot1188

Yup.  I think MJ has given up.  He hasn't even posted on his own forums since November.

Ungood

nurso said:

ILLISET said:

I 100% agree with this.  It would be very nice to be able to tell everyone the raw truth about what's going on with the game.  

I don't understand why monthly newsletters aren't enough ... why does everyone and his dog feel entitled to have insight into a private business?

Because everyone wants to be special.. or some such nonsense.

I bet money none of the people that "Want to tell the world" have a platform where anyone would legit listen to them bitch and complain, which, lets be honest, is all they really want to do.

If they wanted to praise the game, they would find a way to say something positive without violating the NDA.

So they basically want the NDA lifted so they can dump the dirty laundry and feel edgy doing so, to the 3 other people that might give a damn about their opnion of a game.

Slapshot1188

I bet money that the poster above doesn’t have a Camelot Unchained account or he wouldn’t spout silly stuff like that.

Kyleran

nurso said:

ILLISET said:

I 100% agree with this.  It would be very nice to be able to tell everyone the raw truth about what's going on with the game.  

I don't understand why monthly newsletters aren't enough ... why does everyone and his dog feel entitled to have insight into a private business?

The minute he accepted other people's money to build the game he gave up his "right" to run a private business venture.

Kyleran

Slapshot1188 said:

I bet money that the poster above doesn’t have a Camelot Unchained account or he wouldn’t spout silly stuff like that.

Or believes treating paying customers with honesty, integrity and fairness is for suckers....

Or better yet, paying customers are suckers...

YashaX

Torval said:

Kyleran said:

Slapshot1188 said:

I bet money that the poster above doesn’t have a Camelot Unchained account or he wouldn’t spout silly stuff like that.

Or believes treating paying customers with honesty, integrity and fairness is for suckers....

Or better yet, paying customers are suckers...

Pretty sure people who throw hundreds or thousands of dollars at empty promises have always been thought of as suckers. What did paying customers buy? The promise that some project would try their best to create a vision of a product. We just never realistically figured most of these were doomed to failure and got nasty and bitter about that when it happened.

It was a good thought experiment that could have gone another direction, but it didn't. Lesson learnt here is don't throw money at these things. And if someone chooses to then don't expect it to succeed and don't bitch about it when it all falls through.

I have no sympathy for me (Ashes) or anyone else who gambled on this and lost. It's like people who go to Vegas and cry when they come back broke. I get the frustration but at some point you just have to move on and don't make that mistake again.

I think people have every right and reason to aggressively voice their grievances if someone sells them a product or an idea that in no way lives up to the expectations set. In cases like this, there is pretty much no other way to hold the developers accountable.

And considering this "game" seems to have been pretty much forgotten by the world and possibly even the people who are making it, is it really "bitching" to politely ask for a change in some aspects of how they are approaching development/marketing, such as by dropping the NDA? I see that more as some constructive advice from one of the few people that still remember this "game" even exists.

Ungood

Kyleran said:

Slapshot1188 said:

I bet money that the poster above doesn’t have a Camelot Unchained account or he wouldn’t spout silly stuff like that.

Or believes treating paying customers with honesty, integrity and fairness is for suckers....

Or better yet, paying customers are suckers...

Just for the record, I believe people that "Buy" a product before there is a Product, are just suckers waiting to happen, so obviously I do not have an account to a game that does not exist yet.

When or IF, They make the game, then and only then, I will be glad to be make the choice to buy it or not.. as a simple.. honest.. clean.. transaction between a vendor and a costumer, which is something I fully support.

I am just to say this again, because some people, even after several years, still have no figured this one out.

When it comes to Crowdfunding, something to keep in mind is that you're not a costumer, you have not bought a product, you have invested your money into a venture (or pipe dream as it where) that may or may not succeed, which makes you an investor, perhaps a foolish one, but an investor none the less.

And as far CU goes, it remains to be seen if your investment was bad idea or not on your part.
 
Now with that aside.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you have a paid account you have access to the demo, or whatever content is currently made, that you are all hot in the pants to shit on, as well as all kinds of other insider info, that the NDA that says you can't talk about it with non-costumers, correct?