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Loot Boxes Are Predatory - It's Time Netmarble Gets Rid of Them | MMOWTF | MMORPG.com

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Comments

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Sorry for several posts, 

    What I see on these forums is nobody really gives a fuck about addiction or people suffering from loot-boxes. You just don't like them personally, and you don't want them to see them in your games. 

    Apparently, people do like them, otherwise there would be no loot-boxes in the first place. 

    I yet to see a study that concludes why loot-boxes are bad and shall be removed from existence. What I see is just a lot of personal preferences. Which is fine. But get off your moral high horse lads, you are not bullshitting anyone. 
    People with zero skill and more money than sense like them. I mean people that lose their shirt at poker, slots or craps all like the game enough to lose their life savings at those altars. The only difference is, the ones doing it for loot boxes do it so they can wave their hotdogs in everyone's face that they are the strongest out there. 

    I agree with one thing. Loot boxes don't have to necessarily be "banned". They do need to be regulated, and not even necessarily by the government, but by the rating agencies associated with games, like the ESRB. IMO they are as much at fault as these companies. 

    How the hell are you going to give a rating of E (everyone) or T (teen) to a game that has real money gambling in it? 

    The other question would be, is it worth it for games to market gacha games to 18+? Sure those are probably where the whales are too, which is essentially all these games care about, but the whales are essentially advertisements whether they are content creators or not. 

    And how many IP's want to start marketing as ONLY 18+? It kind of doesn't track if suddenly Marvel and Star Wars games are only 18+, for parents that actually DO pay attention to what their kids play, that could begin to be a major turn off to these IP's and the hobby in its entirety. 

    And as for studies I would recommend checking out some of the links in the article. There's a lot of good stuff there. 
    I meant actual studies mate, not news articles. If there are any on the article, I can't find them. 


    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,866
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    GAMEE is developing a game similar to axie for the Arc8 platform. The are doing their first NFT pack (loot box) drop tomorrow. Here are the odds- 

    image
    Clearly listed. Verifiable by looking at contracts and transparent on the Polygon blockchain. What do you guys think of this? Ok? Not ok?
    I know you're trying to swing this around to a blockchain convo, which I briefly brought up before, but that isn't really what this thread is about tbh.

    Making what you roll for NFT's only makes it MORE like gambling because you can cash out what you get and it isn't against TOS like if I power up a roster in genshin and then sell the account.  (That's actually what people used to do. Roll new account after new account until you got rare characters and sell the account).

    So if anything this just makes it MORE of a reason why loot boxes need to be regulated. 
    NFT packs and loot boxes are the same concept. I don't think your regulation comment applies here though.
    Why wouldn't it? 
    What is there to regulate?
    It's still gambling. Even when you provide the odds of something it doesn't make it not gambling. You have a 13.89% chance of rolling a 6 or 8 on dice, it doesn't magically make craps legal for kids to play at a casino. So why should a .04 chance on a legendary item from a loot box get a pass? 



  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    GAMEE is developing a game similar to axie for the Arc8 platform. The are doing their first NFT pack (loot box) drop tomorrow. Here are the odds- 

    image
    Clearly listed. Verifiable by looking at contracts and transparent on the Polygon blockchain. What do you guys think of this? Ok? Not ok?
    I know you're trying to swing this around to a blockchain convo, which I briefly brought up before, but that isn't really what this thread is about tbh.

    Making what you roll for NFT's only makes it MORE like gambling because you can cash out what you get and it isn't against TOS like if I power up a roster in genshin and then sell the account.  (That's actually what people used to do. Roll new account after new account until you got rare characters and sell the account).

    So if anything this just makes it MORE of a reason why loot boxes need to be regulated. 
    NFT packs and loot boxes are the same concept. I don't think your regulation comment applies here though.
    Why wouldn't it? 
    What is there to regulate?
    It's still gambling. Even when you provide the odds of something it doesn't make it not gambling. You have a 13.89% chance of rolling a 6 or 8 on dice, it doesn't magically make craps legal for kids to play at a casino. So why should a .04 chance on a legendary item from a loot box get a pass? 
    In gambling you can lose. Not all loot-boxes are like that. You will be getting something for your money, usually equal or even more than that you have already spent, it would be just a random reward. Toss mobile gaming aside, I have yet to see an AAA game that doesn't work like that. 

    You might say it is gambling, because there is a chance involved to win what you want, but even that, it is a VERY kind of gambling and in no way can be compared to a game of craps or any other casino games. 
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,813
    edited November 2021
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    GAMEE is developing a game similar to axie for the Arc8 platform. The are doing their first NFT pack (loot box) drop tomorrow. Here are the odds- 

    image
    Clearly listed. Verifiable by looking at contracts and transparent on the Polygon blockchain. What do you guys think of this? Ok? Not ok?
    I know you're trying to swing this around to a blockchain convo, which I briefly brought up before, but that isn't really what this thread is about tbh.

    Making what you roll for NFT's only makes it MORE like gambling because you can cash out what you get and it isn't against TOS like if I power up a roster in genshin and then sell the account.  (That's actually what people used to do. Roll new account after new account until you got rare characters and sell the account).

    So if anything this just makes it MORE of a reason why loot boxes need to be regulated. 
    NFT packs and loot boxes are the same concept. I don't think your regulation comment applies here though.
    Why wouldn't it? 
    What is there to regulate?
    It's still gambling. Even when you provide the odds of something it doesn't make it not gambling. You have a 13.89% chance of rolling a 6 or 8 on dice, it doesn't magically make craps legal for kids to play at a casino. So why should a .04 chance on a legendary item from a loot box get a pass? 
    Casinos regulate to insure fair play for those of legal age. 

    In the case of loot bboxes or NFT packs. If of legal age, what more regulation would be needed?

    I think we might be on the same page here. If of age of legal consent, whatever that maybe, then no problem. Correct?
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,866
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    GAMEE is developing a game similar to axie for the Arc8 platform. The are doing their first NFT pack (loot box) drop tomorrow. Here are the odds- 

    image
    Clearly listed. Verifiable by looking at contracts and transparent on the Polygon blockchain. What do you guys think of this? Ok? Not ok?
    I know you're trying to swing this around to a blockchain convo, which I briefly brought up before, but that isn't really what this thread is about tbh.

    Making what you roll for NFT's only makes it MORE like gambling because you can cash out what you get and it isn't against TOS like if I power up a roster in genshin and then sell the account.  (That's actually what people used to do. Roll new account after new account until you got rare characters and sell the account).

    So if anything this just makes it MORE of a reason why loot boxes need to be regulated. 
    NFT packs and loot boxes are the same concept. I don't think your regulation comment applies here though.
    Why wouldn't it? 
    What is there to regulate?
    It's still gambling. Even when you provide the odds of something it doesn't make it not gambling. You have a 13.89% chance of rolling a 6 or 8 on dice, it doesn't magically make craps legal for kids to play at a casino. So why should a .04 chance on a legendary item from a loot box get a pass? 
    In gambling you can lose. Not all loot-boxes are like that. You will be getting something for your money, usually equal or even more than that you have already spent, it would be just a random reward. Toss mobile gaming aside, I have yet to see an AAA game that doesn't work like that. 

    You might say it is gambling, because there is a chance involved to win what you want, but even that, it is a VERY kind of gambling and in no way can be compared to a game of craps or any other casino games. 
    At casinos you still get free drinks. So because you get something for the money you lose it makes it okay? 

    There's no guarantee that the NFTs you earn or the items you get being worth anything. That's generally the point. When you roll and get a common item from a loot box it is basically worthless. That's losing. 



  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    GAMEE is developing a game similar to axie for the Arc8 platform. The are doing their first NFT pack (loot box) drop tomorrow. Here are the odds- 

    image
    Clearly listed. Verifiable by looking at contracts and transparent on the Polygon blockchain. What do you guys think of this? Ok? Not ok?
    I know you're trying to swing this around to a blockchain convo, which I briefly brought up before, but that isn't really what this thread is about tbh.

    Making what you roll for NFT's only makes it MORE like gambling because you can cash out what you get and it isn't against TOS like if I power up a roster in genshin and then sell the account.  (That's actually what people used to do. Roll new account after new account until you got rare characters and sell the account).

    So if anything this just makes it MORE of a reason why loot boxes need to be regulated. 
    NFT packs and loot boxes are the same concept. I don't think your regulation comment applies here though.
    Why wouldn't it? 
    What is there to regulate?
    It's still gambling. Even when you provide the odds of something it doesn't make it not gambling. You have a 13.89% chance of rolling a 6 or 8 on dice, it doesn't magically make craps legal for kids to play at a casino. So why should a .04 chance on a legendary item from a loot box get a pass? 
    In gambling you can lose. Not all loot-boxes are like that. You will be getting something for your money, usually equal or even more than that you have already spent, it would be just a random reward. Toss mobile gaming aside, I have yet to see an AAA game that doesn't work like that. 

    You might say it is gambling, because there is a chance involved to win what you want, but even that, it is a VERY kind of gambling and in no way can be compared to a game of craps or any other casino games. 
    At casinos you still get free drinks. So because you get something for the money you lose it makes it okay? 

    There's no guarantee that the NFTs you earn or the items you get being worth anything. That's generally the point. When you roll and get a common item from a loot box it is basically worthless. That's losing. 
    You don't get a free drink every time you bet $5. You won't get two free drinks every time you bet $10. But that's how loot-boxes work. 

    In casinos you don't bet to get a drink. You bet to win money. But loot-boxes rewards are still from the reward pool that betting for. 

    Anyone who thinks (most) loot-boxes are like a casino then either has never been to a casino or never had purchased any loot-boxes. 
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 2,415


    Anyone who thinks (most) loot-boxes are like a casino then either has never been to a casino or never had purchased any loot-boxes. 
    Seems the same to me.

    If you put money into the machine, and then activate it without knowing what you will get, that is gambling. Loot boxes give you a chance to win something really valuable, or something worthless. Same with slot machines in a casino.

    If you could just buy the boxes knowing what was inside them, obviously that isn't gambling. But when you put up real money, for a *chance* to win something of value, that is gambling.

    Professional gamblers can calculate the odds of each bet, and some of the bets are as low as 0.4% in favor of the casino. In the case of loot boxes, you don't even get to know what the odds are.




    maskedweasel

    ------------
    2022: 45 years on the Net.


  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    olepi said:


    Anyone who thinks (most) loot-boxes are like a casino then either has never been to a casino or never had purchased any loot-boxes. 
    Seems the same to me.

    If you put money into the machine, and then activate it without knowing what you will get, that is gambling. Loot boxes give you a chance to win something really valuable, or something worthless. Same with slot machines in a casino.

    If you could just buy the boxes knowing what was inside them, obviously that isn't gambling. But when you put up real money, for a *chance* to win something of value, that is gambling.

    Professional gamblers can calculate the odds of each bet, and some of the bets are as low as 0.4% in favor of the casino. In the case of loot boxes, you don't even get to know what the odds are.




    There is a big difference of not winning anything and completely losing your money to winning something random with at least the same value. 

    Just because there is a chance involved doesn't make it the same thing. How is that the same to you? With the second model ALL casinos would go bankrupt on the first weekend. The only reason loot-boxes can work like this is because it is digital goods. Otherwise, it is a horrible business model for a casino. 
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 2,415
    edited November 2021
    olepi said:


    Anyone who thinks (most) loot-boxes are like a casino then either has never been to a casino or never had purchased any loot-boxes. 
    Seems the same to me.

    If you put money into the machine, and then activate it without knowing what you will get, that is gambling. Loot boxes give you a chance to win something really valuable, or something worthless. Same with slot machines in a casino.

    If you could just buy the boxes knowing what was inside them, obviously that isn't gambling. But when you put up real money, for a *chance* to win something of value, that is gambling.

    Professional gamblers can calculate the odds of each bet, and some of the bets are as low as 0.4% in favor of the casino. In the case of loot boxes, you don't even get to know what the odds are.




    There is a big difference of not winning anything and completely losing your money to winning something random with at least the same value. 

    Just because there is a chance involved doesn't make it the same thing. How is that the same to you? With the second model ALL casinos would go bankrupt on the first weekend. The only reason loot-boxes can work like this is because it is digital goods. Otherwise, it is a horrible business model for a casino. 

    In the case of the casino, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to be in the casino, play the games, and lose a tiny fraction of your money (most slots are 98+% return). That little bit you lose is payment for entertainment.

    In the case of a loot box, you put up money and most of the time you get things that don't help you in the game. Maybe a common cosmetic, or potion. Even though what you get has minimal value, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to play the game, etc.

    That "entertainment" is the excitement from not knowing what you will get. And the possibility of getting a big win.

    I'll bet that in most cases, what you get from the loot box would have been cheaper if you just bought it in their store.

    ------------
    2022: 45 years on the Net.


  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    olepi said:
    olepi said:


    Anyone who thinks (most) loot-boxes are like a casino then either has never been to a casino or never had purchased any loot-boxes. 
    Seems the same to me.

    If you put money into the machine, and then activate it without knowing what you will get, that is gambling. Loot boxes give you a chance to win something really valuable, or something worthless. Same with slot machines in a casino.

    If you could just buy the boxes knowing what was inside them, obviously that isn't gambling. But when you put up real money, for a *chance* to win something of value, that is gambling.

    Professional gamblers can calculate the odds of each bet, and some of the bets are as low as 0.4% in favor of the casino. In the case of loot boxes, you don't even get to know what the odds are.




    There is a big difference of not winning anything and completely losing your money to winning something random with at least the same value. 

    Just because there is a chance involved doesn't make it the same thing. How is that the same to you? With the second model ALL casinos would go bankrupt on the first weekend. The only reason loot-boxes can work like this is because it is digital goods. Otherwise, it is a horrible business model for a casino. 

    In the case of the casino, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to be in the casino, play the games, and lose a tiny fraction of your money (most slots are 98+% return). That little bit you lose is payment for entertainment.

    In the case of a loot box, you put up money and most of the time you get things that don't help you in the game. Maybe a common cosmetic, or potion. Even though what you get has minimal value, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to play the game, etc.

    That "entertainment" is the excitement from not knowing what you will get. And the possibility of getting a big win.

    I'll bet that in most cases, what you get from the loot box would have been cheaper if you just bought it in their store.
    The entertainment part of course justifies the risk of losing, heck without losing, there won't be much excitement. I used to be a poker pro, and the grinding part of the game was a sheer torment, there was no fun it, I just did it for the money, like a job that you hate but it pays well. 

    That's why there is no "losing" in loot-boxes. Because they ain't fun by themselves. And it is possible to give out something. 

    Of course there is chance, but you can't really compare loot-boxes to casino games. 

    Here's an example; I buy a lot of loot-boxes in League of Legends. There are 10 tiers of skins available in this game, costing from $5 to ~$1000. You can buy a loot-box for $1. It would have a random skin inside it ranging from $5 to $1000 ones. You also need another type of crafting item that you need to use to upgrade the skin shard drop from the loot-box to a permanent skin. You need to disenchant 4 shards to upgrade 1 permanently. Your skin shard drops are at least tier 1 and can also be tier 10, lower chance though, but I have gotten a couple of T10 and I have spent less than $2k for sure. There is no way to lose money buying loot-boxes, whatever you do, you will end up with more valuable digital goods. Might be not the ones exactly you wanted. But they are still more valuable than what you have invested or if you wanted to buy them directly from the shop. Also, you won't get the skins you currently have. 

    No way in hell you can compare the above practice to playing a game of craps, or other types of casino games. Because there is a difference between non-zero-sum game and a zero-sum game. 
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 2,415
    olepi said:
    olepi said:


    Anyone who thinks (most) loot-boxes are like a casino then either has never been to a casino or never had purchased any loot-boxes. 
    Seems the same to me.

    If you put money into the machine, and then activate it without knowing what you will get, that is gambling. Loot boxes give you a chance to win something really valuable, or something worthless. Same with slot machines in a casino.

    If you could just buy the boxes knowing what was inside them, obviously that isn't gambling. But when you put up real money, for a *chance* to win something of value, that is gambling.

    Professional gamblers can calculate the odds of each bet, and some of the bets are as low as 0.4% in favor of the casino. In the case of loot boxes, you don't even get to know what the odds are.




    There is a big difference of not winning anything and completely losing your money to winning something random with at least the same value. 

    Just because there is a chance involved doesn't make it the same thing. How is that the same to you? With the second model ALL casinos would go bankrupt on the first weekend. The only reason loot-boxes can work like this is because it is digital goods. Otherwise, it is a horrible business model for a casino. 

    In the case of the casino, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to be in the casino, play the games, and lose a tiny fraction of your money (most slots are 98+% return). That little bit you lose is payment for entertainment.

    In the case of a loot box, you put up money and most of the time you get things that don't help you in the game. Maybe a common cosmetic, or potion. Even though what you get has minimal value, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to play the game, etc.

    That "entertainment" is the excitement from not knowing what you will get. And the possibility of getting a big win.

    I'll bet that in most cases, what you get from the loot box would have been cheaper if you just bought it in their store.
    The entertainment part of course justifies the risk of losing, heck without losing, there won't be much excitement. I used to be a poker pro, and the grinding part of the game was a sheer torment, there was no fun it, I just did it for the money, like a job that you hate but it pays well. 

    That's why there is no "losing" in loot-boxes. Because they ain't fun by themselves. And it is possible to give out something. 

    Of course there is chance, but you can't really compare loot-boxes to casino games. 

    Here's an example; I buy a lot of loot-boxes in League of Legends. There are 10 tiers of skins available in this game, costing from $5 to ~$1000. You can buy a loot-box for $1. It would have a random skin inside it ranging from $5 to $1000 ones. You also need another type of crafting item that you need to use to upgrade the skin shard drop from the loot-box to a permanent skin. You need to disenchant 4 shards to upgrade 1 permanently. Your skin shard drops are at least tier 1 and can also be tier 10, lower chance though, but I have gotten a couple of T10 and I have spent less than $2k for sure. There is no way to lose money buying loot-boxes, whatever you do, you will end up with more valuable digital goods. Might be not the ones exactly you wanted. But they are still more valuable than what you have invested or if you wanted to buy them directly from the shop. Also, you won't get the skins you currently have. 

    No way in hell you can compare the above practice to playing a game of craps, or other types of casino games. Because there is a difference between non-zero-sum game and a zero-sum game. 

    I understand what you mean. I decided to learn craps and even wrote my own craps program to test different betting strategies. Once I mastered one, I went into the casino and won a bunch of money. But it wasn't really fun, more like a grind as you say.

    (More fun was trying to come up with a truly random number generator for dice rolls. I bought a plug-in geiger counter and used the time between ticks as the random seed.)


    "Might be not the ones exactly you wanted."

    This is the problem. Say I want to get a blue skin. I have the red one, yellow, and green. So I buy a loot box hoping to get blue, but get another red. That really has no value to me, I just lost my money. Sure I got something, and yes it has some value, just not to me.

    That is the definition of gambling.


    ------------
    2022: 45 years on the Net.


  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    olepi said:
    olepi said:
    olepi said:


    Anyone who thinks (most) loot-boxes are like a casino then either has never been to a casino or never had purchased any loot-boxes. 
    Seems the same to me.

    If you put money into the machine, and then activate it without knowing what you will get, that is gambling. Loot boxes give you a chance to win something really valuable, or something worthless. Same with slot machines in a casino.

    If you could just buy the boxes knowing what was inside them, obviously that isn't gambling. But when you put up real money, for a *chance* to win something of value, that is gambling.

    Professional gamblers can calculate the odds of each bet, and some of the bets are as low as 0.4% in favor of the casino. In the case of loot boxes, you don't even get to know what the odds are.




    There is a big difference of not winning anything and completely losing your money to winning something random with at least the same value. 

    Just because there is a chance involved doesn't make it the same thing. How is that the same to you? With the second model ALL casinos would go bankrupt on the first weekend. The only reason loot-boxes can work like this is because it is digital goods. Otherwise, it is a horrible business model for a casino. 

    In the case of the casino, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to be in the casino, play the games, and lose a tiny fraction of your money (most slots are 98+% return). That little bit you lose is payment for entertainment.

    In the case of a loot box, you put up money and most of the time you get things that don't help you in the game. Maybe a common cosmetic, or potion. Even though what you get has minimal value, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to play the game, etc.

    That "entertainment" is the excitement from not knowing what you will get. And the possibility of getting a big win.

    I'll bet that in most cases, what you get from the loot box would have been cheaper if you just bought it in their store.
    The entertainment part of course justifies the risk of losing, heck without losing, there won't be much excitement. I used to be a poker pro, and the grinding part of the game was a sheer torment, there was no fun it, I just did it for the money, like a job that you hate but it pays well. 

    That's why there is no "losing" in loot-boxes. Because they ain't fun by themselves. And it is possible to give out something. 

    Of course there is chance, but you can't really compare loot-boxes to casino games. 

    Here's an example; I buy a lot of loot-boxes in League of Legends. There are 10 tiers of skins available in this game, costing from $5 to ~$1000. You can buy a loot-box for $1. It would have a random skin inside it ranging from $5 to $1000 ones. You also need another type of crafting item that you need to use to upgrade the skin shard drop from the loot-box to a permanent skin. You need to disenchant 4 shards to upgrade 1 permanently. Your skin shard drops are at least tier 1 and can also be tier 10, lower chance though, but I have gotten a couple of T10 and I have spent less than $2k for sure. There is no way to lose money buying loot-boxes, whatever you do, you will end up with more valuable digital goods. Might be not the ones exactly you wanted. But they are still more valuable than what you have invested or if you wanted to buy them directly from the shop. Also, you won't get the skins you currently have. 

    No way in hell you can compare the above practice to playing a game of craps, or other types of casino games. Because there is a difference between non-zero-sum game and a zero-sum game. 

    I understand what you mean. I decided to learn craps and even wrote my own craps program to test different betting strategies. Once I mastered one, I went into the casino and won a bunch of money. But it wasn't really fun, more like a grind as you say.

    (More fun was trying to come up with a truly random number generator for dice rolls. I bought a plug-in geiger counter and used the time between ticks as the random seed.)


    "Might be not the ones exactly you wanted."

    This is the problem. Say I want to get a blue skin. I have the red one, yellow, and green. So I buy a loot box hoping to get blue, but get another red. That really has no value to me, I just lost my money. Sure I got something, and yes it has some value, just not to me.

    That is the definition of gambling.


    I get what you mean. But this is basically like Kinder eggs, they aren't really gambling mate, there's just chance involved. Even if you call that game of chance, a sort of gambling, still vastly different from casino games. 

    I think definitions matter. And I believe we shouldn't just ban whatever we feel uncomfortable about. There should be precise definitions, mechanisms understood well, and then there should be precise and well-thought regulations, making loot-boxes a better experience while cutting off the greedy or predatory practices. I also believe in their current state, they are not horrible in general. Yes mobile games are godawful, and here and now there will be an AAA title with awful loot-boxes. Regulations should keep those at bay, meanwhile others (like League of Legends), should continue their business as it is. 
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,723
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    But, but those poor studios need to make a profit and any way they do it is just fine /s

    Loot boxes are dumb shit for even dumber people defended by the morally bankrupt.

    Nobody here is defending it ..

    ORLY?

    Scorchien said:


    So either you have the money and make a conscious decision to spend it on your Hobby ..Nothing wrong with this

    Nothing wrong with this


    Hmm...

    Lol thats not defending , Thats a simple basic Fact...

        So simply do you agree with ..


        You have the money to spend on something you enjoy .. And there is Nothing wrong with that ..

                Do you agree


                             or


        You dont have the money and foolishly spend it any way .. There is something wrong with this ..


      So answer .. do you agree .. with the 2 statements ..

       Go ahead answer ...  Now is your answer defending the first action .. Or is it simple common sense ..

      Of course you agree .. .. and guess what you are not defending the action ..

       
    The topic is loot boxes and whether they're an OK monetization gimmick or need to go.

    Not the wealthy v. poor horseshit you're spewing.

    By your own words you gave them the seal of approval by saying if you have the money it's OK to spend money on loot boxes.

    You may not be able to connect your own dots to see how you're defending loot boxes but you sure as shit are,
    Scorchien is still on point, you can't have one without the other, these are the consumers who buy into the Loot Boxes.
    MMORPGs aren't easy, You're just too PRO!
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,723
    Scorchien said:
    Scot said:
    Scorchien said:
    Vrika said:
    Society doesn't typically accommodate addiction, nor should it. Alcoholics do not prevent the sale of alcohol, tobacco related addictions don't prevent the sale of it, gambling addiction does not cause the closure of casinos or lotteries to be shut down, lock boxes to be banned, and so forth. Though addictions do have societal impact they are at their core tied to the individual so they must be addressed at that level rather than at the communal one.
    Society prevents minors from buying alcohol, tobacco, and gambling on casinos.

    There's also usually special regulation like permit that's needed if you want to run gambling or produce alcohol, mandatory health warnings, ban on focusing advertisement to minors, etc.

    Society regulates other addictive stuff, and loot boxes should get the same treatment.



    Society does not prevent anything , to the contrary its quite the opposite..

            Minors can and do get all of those things easily , most delivered directly to there door now .. And walk into casinos with Fake Ids ..

     The laws in place for these things are frivolous at best and not enforced ..

       Its still comes down to parenting .. "You made the kid , its your job to raise the kid "..

    Society in of itself does/did not fail when a kid is doing any of these activities the Parent did ..

      Society regulates NOTHING

     Its also worth noting that All these games require EULA agreement by an adult for online purchases .. Its very clear..
    I don't see parents allowing kids to open mail sent through the post to them, nor do I see a 13 year old getting into a casino or betting shop with a fake idea. I think you are taking individualism verses statism too far. I would agree with you far more when it comes to adults, but a laissez-faire attitude to children is not on. Governments can and must intervene when private companies are encouraging children to gamble.
    You are certainly on the wrong side of history  there are much more pressing matters any government should be focused on..

    Loot boxes being the least of them ..

    RIGHT HERE ----> That is a parenting/ Adult issue /end.. <------RIGHT HERE

    You dont see parents letting kids open mail .. lol it happens everyday every state every county .. Minors are getting stuff delivered to the there homes .. And yes it starts with bad parenting .. The govetmentis right now trying to get more  control of kids , the push back is strong .. But I digress this discussion is now drifting into bannable topics as ya know snowflakes.. 

     Bottom line , good parents know exactly what there kids have acess to on the internet,  and check this stuff daily . Me or wife do this each day .. 

      
    This topic ended right here!
    ConstantineMerusScorchien
    MMORPGs aren't easy, You're just too PRO!
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,227
    Again the core problem in my mind s not even the pseudo-gambling. 

    It is the fact that these companies hire people who make their living finding new ways to sucker you out of your money (because that is what a casino is designed to do...) but rather than being more or less upfront about it like a casino... They try to play it off as some innocent fun.... 

    Unless you are EA... Then you just make it the core gameplay mechanic... *looks at FIFA FUT* 

    This have been a good conversation

  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,723
    edited November 2021
    tawess said:
    Again the core problem in my mind s not even the pseudo-gambling. 

    It is the fact that these companies hire people who make their living finding new ways to sucker you out of your money (because that is what a casino is designed to do...) but rather than being more or less upfront about it like a casino... They try to play it off as some innocent fun.... 

    Unless you are EA... Then you just make it the core gameplay mechanic... *looks at FIFA FUT* 
    The problem with this statement LOOT BOXES are not new!
    You as a responsible adult should be able to identify this early on and find whether or not this is acceptable. 
    Scorchien
    MMORPGs aren't easy, You're just too PRO!
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,866
    edited November 2021
    olepi said:
    olepi said:


    Anyone who thinks (most) loot-boxes are like a casino then either has never been to a casino or never had purchased any loot-boxes. 
    Seems the same to me.

    If you put money into the machine, and then activate it without knowing what you will get, that is gambling. Loot boxes give you a chance to win something really valuable, or something worthless. Same with slot machines in a casino.

    If you could just buy the boxes knowing what was inside them, obviously that isn't gambling. But when you put up real money, for a *chance* to win something of value, that is gambling.

    Professional gamblers can calculate the odds of each bet, and some of the bets are as low as 0.4% in favor of the casino. In the case of loot boxes, you don't even get to know what the odds are.




    There is a big difference of not winning anything and completely losing your money to winning something random with at least the same value. 

    Just because there is a chance involved doesn't make it the same thing. How is that the same to you? With the second model ALL casinos would go bankrupt on the first weekend. The only reason loot-boxes can work like this is because it is digital goods. Otherwise, it is a horrible business model for a casino. 

    In the case of the casino, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to be in the casino, play the games, and lose a tiny fraction of your money (most slots are 98+% return). That little bit you lose is payment for entertainment.

    In the case of a loot box, you put up money and most of the time you get things that don't help you in the game. Maybe a common cosmetic, or potion. Even though what you get has minimal value, the argument is that you are paying for entertainment. You get to play the game, etc.

    That "entertainment" is the excitement from not knowing what you will get. And the possibility of getting a big win.

    I'll bet that in most cases, what you get from the loot box would have been cheaper if you just bought it in their store.
    The entertainment part of course justifies the risk of losing, heck without losing, there won't be much excitement. I used to be a poker pro, and the grinding part of the game was a sheer torment, there was no fun it, I just did it for the money, like a job that you hate but it pays well. 

    That's why there is no "losing" in loot-boxes. Because they ain't fun by themselves. And it is possible to give out something. 

    Of course there is chance, but you can't really compare loot-boxes to casino games. 

    Here's an example; I buy a lot of loot-boxes in League of Legends. There are 10 tiers of skins available in this game, costing from $5 to ~$1000. You can buy a loot-box for $1. It would have a random skin inside it ranging from $5 to $1000 ones. You also need another type of crafting item that you need to use to upgrade the skin shard drop from the loot-box to a permanent skin. You need to disenchant 4 shards to upgrade 1 permanently. Your skin shard drops are at least tier 1 and can also be tier 10, lower chance though, but I have gotten a couple of T10 and I have spent less than $2k for sure. There is no way to lose money buying loot-boxes, whatever you do, you will end up with more valuable digital goods. Might be not the ones exactly you wanted. But they are still more valuable than what you have invested or if you wanted to buy them directly from the shop. Also, you won't get the skins you currently have. 

    No way in hell you can compare the above practice to playing a game of craps, or other types of casino games. Because there is a difference between non-zero-sum game and a zero-sum game. 
    Did you read the studies in the video? Taken directly from the study:

    " Approximately 1.45 billion sales worth $1,004,955,106.92 USD in real currency. At an aggregate level, these items clearly have substantial monetary value. 5

    At the individual level, the average sales price for an individual item was $5.03 (SD = $34.83, Range: $0.03-$743.80).

    Critically, most items were sold for less than the cost of purchasing a loot box ($2.49), demonstrating a financial loss in real terms, and contradicting the common argument that loot boxes are not gambling because no player loses upon opening a loot box6.

    Indeed, the overwhelming majority of players incur financial losses when onselling loot box items, with ~93% of sales recouping less than the purchase price. For context, European style roulette wheels have an approximate 97% loss rate for bets placed on one number"

    Losing only signifies that what you spent is more than what you obtained. In slots you can legitimately spend 5 dollars, win 1, and that would constitute a LOSE condition despite you winning something of "value". It doesn't matter that you can statistically see what that value is, or whether or not what you obtain is of any value, loot boxes still have winners and losers. 

    On a side note, kinder eggs are even worse than regular gambling too. Sure you always obtain chocolate, but in the end they make you throw out a terrible toy which is worth less than the time it takes me to walk to the trash to throw it there. ;) 



  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Anyone but me kinda just stop when Loot Boxes got equated to any other kind of purchase?

    Like, going to McD's, with that kind of mindset.
    Me: I's like a #1.
    Cashier: "Alright, that is 9.75, for a #1, would you like to super size that?"
    Me: Sure.
    Cashier: That's 12.25, your number is D27, thank you for your order, 
    Me: Thank you.

    I go take my receipt, and wait for D27 to come up.

    Alright.. Roll it for D27, and now the question is, do they get their Big Mac, with large fries, and a large drink, like they ordered, or, do they... ding, ding, ding, Well lets see, they got a pile of Quail Shit on an Maple Leaf, thank you for playing, enjoy your meal.

    No.. fuck that.

    Loot Boxes are not like buying something, when I buy something, I want to get what I paid for.

    If It's a gamble, then it is under the Gambling Commission, and needs to be treated as a gambling mechanic, with all the laws and drawbacks applied.

    Can you imagine if this was applied to cars.

    Me: I'd like to buy a Toyota Tundra.
    Sales Rep: We don't sell Tundra's directly, but You can buy a ticket, for 5,000 and see what Toyota you get, you might get a Tundra.
    Me: Umm No.. I'd like to buy a Toyota Tundra, it's normally 53,000, so I would like to buy that, not a lottery ticket for some random Toyota.
    Sales Rep: well we only sell the lottery tickets, would you like to buy 10 of them to see if you get a Tundra?
    Me: Fine, give me 10.
    Roll It!:
    1: Toyota Roof Rack for a Camery
    2: Toyota Oil Filter and Tune Up Package
    3: Toyota Cup Holder for a Toyota RAV4
    5: Toyota Bumper for a Tocoma
    6: Shit
    7: Shit
    8: Shit
    9: Shit
    10: a Toy Yoda.

    Yah.. no.. Loot boxes are not like buying a fucking car.
    maskedweasellaserit
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    You guys make a lot of anecdotal non existent problems, straw manning, out of context and irrelevant examples, and have never been to a casino.

    I'm out. Enjoy your Karen crusade. 
    maskedweaselDeathkon1
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    You guys make a lot of anecdotal non existent problems, straw manning, out of context and irrelevant examples, and have never been to a casino.

    I'm out. Enjoy your Karen crusade. 
    When I was in Wisconsin, I would go to the Casino every week end, have a dinner and the wife and I would play the slots for a bit, while letting our food digest.

    Do you have a point you were going to make about gambling or some such?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    edited November 2021
    You guys make a lot of anecdotal non existent problems, straw manning, out of context and irrelevant examples, and have never been to a casino.

    I'm out. Enjoy your Karen crusade. 
    You want to know what I see when I go into a casino... a bunch of flashing signs saying to call this 1-800 number if you got problems.

    The problem with the picture I get in my head is I don't know whether I'm seeing cows, chickens or sheep.

    And I'm not talking about people who go for a few of hours of entertainment.

    edited for grammar

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • Deathkon1Deathkon1 Member RarePosts: 714
    edited November 2021
    You guys make a lot of anecdotal non existent problems, straw manning, out of context and irrelevant examples, and have never been to a casino.

    I'm out. Enjoy your Karen crusade. 
    The crusade to get that new high at canceling anything and thinking omfg I matter I ruined something for someone else is eternal, weaponize the karen army gear up and role out 



    All jokes aside this is adorable that someone brought an argument thats been up for debate for like years and people going ham at it, arguments stupid over the years its devolved into a what should and shouldnt be allowed per me aka the person and how can people get their rockers off forcing a change down peoples throats for no other reason then the momentary high they get from being able to tell what people are allowed to do for that one moment
    maskedweasel
    Fantasy is often prettier then reality
    The hardest thing in life to learn is which bridge to cross and which to burn
    ​Without ​​​wrong, there is no right

    Sad Music
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  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,866
    Deathkon1 said:
    You guys make a lot of anecdotal non existent problems, straw manning, out of context and irrelevant examples, and have never been to a casino.

    I'm out. Enjoy your Karen crusade. 
    The crusade to get that new high at canceling anything and thinking omfg I matter I ruined something for someone else is eternal, weaponize the karen army gear up and role out 



    All jokes aside this is adorable that someone brought an argument thats been up for debate for like years and people going ham at it, arguments stupid over the years its devolved into a what should and shouldnt be allowed per me aka the person and how can people get their rockers off forcing a change down peoples throats for no other reason then the momentary high they get from being able to tell what people are allowed to do for that one moment
    So basically, the video talks to a clinical psychologist. Talks about governments looking into legislation. Shows studies where they equate and prove loot boxes are gambling and have cause for the impending regulations. 

    But like so many things and people who "know better", ears closed mouths open seems to be the major response. Same with constantine, I posted a direct quote from the study refuting what he said, and instead of responding to it, he decided "I'm out". 

    Took me less than 2 seconds to search and find multiple studies as recent as this year related to the subject. It's not hard. As the topic continues to get more traction and more regulation happens we're going to hear more about this stuff whether we want to or not. 



  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 3,287
    Kyleran said:
    laserit said:

    You have the right to spend your money and make your money anyway you like.
    One has the right to make and spend money any way the law allows, which may or not be in accordance with what one likes.
    Or is in the best interest of society.



    If it was thought sufficiently damaging to the best interest of society the law wouldn't allow it. Considering the law allows conduct that if abused is much more dangerous than the excessive purchase of loot boxes I don't see them being seen so any time soon.
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 3,287
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    laserit said:

    You have the right to spend your money and make your money anyway you like.
    One has the right to make and spend money any way the law allows, which may or not be in accordance with what one likes.
    Really?

    First paste in the next sentence (it was a two sentence paragraph) and then put the statement in the context of loot boxes and video games.

    If we're discussing life, I will reevaluate my statement.

    Thank you



    Yes, really. My response to your first sentence was also in the context of loot box discussion, a context that extends beyond your post nevermind paragraph. The second sentence of the paragraph was irrelevant in that context so not responded to.
    Lol ok well the law does seem to allow for pretty much anything when it comes to loot boxes and video games as long as there is nothing of real value given to the customer.

    My argument is that it’s time for that to change.

    If people didn't feel the value of loot boxes real they wouldn't be buying them.

    Your desire for change is clear, as is that of many others. What is lacking is an adequate basis for many of the changes desired.
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