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Discussion: Why Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO's Fail

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    edited September 2021
    olepi said:
    Ungood said:
    olepi said:
    Ungood said:
    olepi said:
    So that's DAOC and ESO right there. Most of the "sheep" stay in safe areas where they can't be attacked. And there are a lot more of them doing PvE things than get into PvP. They only PvP when they want to, when they come down from the mountains, on purpose. And they know they can retreat back to the peaks and be safe again.

    A world of only wolves doesn't work. A world where the sheep can be killed at any time, no matter what they do, doesn't work.

    If you try to create such a world, you'll need to artificially cull the wolves somehow.


    Lets get away from Animal Husbandry, and just get down to MMO's directly.

    Personally, the real question becomes, why would someone that does not want to play a PvP game, play a game with PvP In it?

    I like to mostly PvE, including wandering around, fishing, farming, etc. And sometimes, I like to mix it up and attack a keep in PvP. Some games let me do both, and they are very successful. Games that only have PvP are not successful generally.
    PvP games are hugely successful, LOL, Overwatch, Fortnight, COD, Team Fortress (2).

    Yes, PvP games are popular, just not in the MMO genre. Why not?

    Simply put, "advancement", be it in levels or gear. Each "unequalizes" the playing field in an MMORPG.
    UngoodBrainy

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 3,004
    Albion Online is successful and that's full loot PvP MMORPG.
    AlBQuirky

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,824
    Scot said:
    olepi said:

    Yes, PvP games are popular, just not in the MMO genre. Why not?
    You have the friction between the PvE only and the PvP at any cost crowd, but also they are far harder to balance. Games with mixed gameplay even solo games find balancing different types of gameplay tricky. Finally there is the bagge here of 'carebears and gankers', that flavours all these discussions and seems impossible to move past.

    What I notice though is that the PvE crowd has always been in favor of adding PvP servers to games. The opposite is sadly not so true though: it seems the PvP crowd, at least a non negligible part of it, wants to force others into their play style and are opposed to PvE servers in games with PvP.
    I am not sure I would agree, I can remember in a MMO you are very familiar with New World we had posters saying the likes of "I'm out" as soon as they realised the PvP nature of the game and then near enough doing hallelujahs when it went PvE in the main. I don't remember them advocating a PvP server then, do you?

    As an advocate of three way faction MMOs with contestable hinterlands like DAOC or at least faction "arena" MMOs like ESO I find PvE players to be as bad as PvP players in wanting things their way. This is why I don't see us getting past this, it will remain a perennial problem.
    AlBQuirky
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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    Akulas said:
    Albion Online is successful and that's full loot PvP MMORPG.

    Is it? I didnt think it was all that successful, having to go f2p and all....
    AlBQuirky
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Akulas said:
    Albion Online is successful and that's full loot PvP MMORPG.

    Is it? I didnt think it was all that successful, having to go f2p and all....

    Albion Online earned over 6 million $ last year ...
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    edited September 2021
    Scorchien said:
    Akulas said:
    Albion Online is successful and that's full loot PvP MMORPG.

    Is it? I didnt think it was all that successful, having to go f2p and all....

    Albion Online earned over 6 million $ last year ...
    While that sounds good and all, keep in mind that was about what GW1 was making at its lowest point in 2011. Before it was pretty much put into Maintenance Mode, as GW2 launched.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Akulas said:
    Albion Online is successful and that's full loot PvP MMORPG.

    Is it? I didnt think it was all that successful, having to go f2p and all....

    Albion Online earned over 6 million $ last year ...
    While that sounds good and all, keep in mind that was about what GW1 was making at its lowest point in 2011. Before it was pretty much put into Maintenance Mode, as GW2 launched.
    Yeah, but how large was the Guild Wars 2 development team compared to Albion's? 

    6 million for, say, a Blizzard game is going to look different to 6 million to Guild Wars 2, to Albion, and heck, even Pantheon if it launches.


    AlBQuirky
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    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited September 2021
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Akulas said:
    Albion Online is successful and that's full loot PvP MMORPG.

    Is it? I didnt think it was all that successful, having to go f2p and all....

    Albion Online earned over 6 million $ last year ...
    While that sounds good and all, keep in mind that was about what GW1 was making at its lowest point in 2011. Before it was pretty much put into Maintenance Mode, as GW2 launched.

    • Albion Online has a strong market share in their industry
    • Revenue generated per employee is greater than industry average
    • Demonstrating revenue growth that is faster than the industry average
    • The number of employees is growing faster than the industry average
    • Revenue growth is more steady than the industry average
    • Since Albion Online was founded, the company has grown faster than the industry average
    • Web traffic rankings are better than the industry average 

      And ill add this is with 31 employees...


       Albion is no Crowfall but...,... yea // nv/m ... Lol not worth the energy .
    AlBQuirky
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,824
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    olepi said:

    Yes, PvP games are popular, just not in the MMO genre. Why not?
    You have the friction between the PvE only and the PvP at any cost crowd, but also they are far harder to balance. Games with mixed gameplay even solo games find balancing different types of gameplay tricky. Finally there is the bagge here of 'carebears and gankers', that flavours all these discussions and seems impossible to move past.

    What I notice though is that the PvE crowd has always been in favor of adding PvP servers to games. The opposite is sadly not so true though: it seems the PvP crowd, at least a non negligible part of it, wants to force others into their play style and are opposed to PvE servers in games with PvP.
    I am not sure I would agree, I can remember in a MMO you are very familiar with New World we had posters saying the likes of "I'm out" as soon as they realised the PvP nature of the game and then near enough doing hallelujahs when it went PvE in the main. I don't remember them advocating a PvP server then, do you?


    For NW, the idea of PvP servers had been suggested many times on the official forums during all the beta events, and I don't remember reading anyone who was actually against it.
    Well I never saw those, just thinking about what I saw on here. Like Mtibbs said it is unlikely for a game as big as this that people would object. I can imagine in CF for example someone must have put their hand up and said where is the player base for this?

    But point taken, they are happy there is PvP as long as it is over there and no where near me and mine. :)
    AlBQuirky[Deleted User]
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    olepi said:

    Yes, PvP games are popular, just not in the MMO genre. Why not?
    You have the friction between the PvE only and the PvP at any cost crowd, but also they are far harder to balance. Games with mixed gameplay even solo games find balancing different types of gameplay tricky. Finally there is the bagge here of 'carebears and gankers', that flavours all these discussions and seems impossible to move past.

    What I notice though is that the PvE crowd has always been in favor of adding PvP servers to games. The opposite is sadly not so true though: it seems the PvP crowd, at least a non negligible part of it, wants to force others into their play style and are opposed to PvE servers in games with PvP.
    I am not sure I would agree, I can remember in a MMO you are very familiar with New World we had posters saying the likes of "I'm out" as soon as they realised the PvP nature of the game and then near enough doing hallelujahs when it went PvE in the main. I don't remember them advocating a PvP server then, do you?


    For NW, the idea of PvP servers had been suggested many times on the official forums during all the beta events, and I don't remember reading anyone who was actually against it.
    There really shouldn't be opposition to having alternate servers.

    There shouldn't be, I agree. I recall in EQ1 that changes were made across all servers. Many a time the PvE servers saw class changes because PvP servers "needed more balance."

    As long the servers are truly separate, they should co-exist nicely :)

    Of course that was one MMORPG example and way back when.
    [Deleted User]kitarad

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Ungood said:
    olepi said:
    Ungood said:
    olepi said:
    So that's DAOC and ESO right there. Most of the "sheep" stay in safe areas where they can't be attacked. And there are a lot more of them doing PvE things than get into PvP. They only PvP when they want to, when they come down from the mountains, on purpose. And they know they can retreat back to the peaks and be safe again.

    A world of only wolves doesn't work. A world where the sheep can be killed at any time, no matter what they do, doesn't work.

    If you try to create such a world, you'll need to artificially cull the wolves somehow.


    Lets get away from Animal Husbandry, and just get down to MMO's directly.

    Personally, the real question becomes, why would someone that does not want to play a PvP game, play a game with PvP In it?

    I like to mostly PvE, including wandering around, fishing, farming, etc. And sometimes, I like to mix it up and attack a keep in PvP. Some games let me do both, and they are very successful. Games that only have PvP are not successful generally.
    PvP games are hugely successful, LOL, Overwatch, Fortnight, COD, Team Fortress (2).
    So are American Football, Soccer,  Stratego, and Risk.

    None are relevant to this conversation about MMORPGS, same with your examples.

    Although, I'm told Fortnite has some PVEish base building in it...hmm?
    AlBQuirky

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    AlBQuirky said:
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    olepi said:

    Yes, PvP games are popular, just not in the MMO genre. Why not?
    You have the friction between the PvE only and the PvP at any cost crowd, but also they are far harder to balance. Games with mixed gameplay even solo games find balancing different types of gameplay tricky. Finally there is the bagge here of 'carebears and gankers', that flavours all these discussions and seems impossible to move past.

    What I notice though is that the PvE crowd has always been in favor of adding PvP servers to games. The opposite is sadly not so true though: it seems the PvP crowd, at least a non negligible part of it, wants to force others into their play style and are opposed to PvE servers in games with PvP.
    I am not sure I would agree, I can remember in a MMO you are very familiar with New World we had posters saying the likes of "I'm out" as soon as they realised the PvP nature of the game and then near enough doing hallelujahs when it went PvE in the main. I don't remember them advocating a PvP server then, do you?


    For NW, the idea of PvP servers had been suggested many times on the official forums during all the beta events, and I don't remember reading anyone who was actually against it.
    There really shouldn't be opposition to having alternate servers.

    There shouldn't be, I agree. I recall in EQ1 that changes were made across all servers. Many a time the PvE servers saw class changes because PvP servers "needed more balance."

    As long the servers are truly separate, they should co-exist nicely :)

    Of course that was one MMORPG example and way back when.

    Yes the Ranger class was nerfed simply because of PVP implications that players felt was too overpowered....That was why I have never liked both PVE and PVP in the same game.
    KylerankitaradAlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Akulas said:
    Albion Online is successful and that's full loot PvP MMORPG.

    Is it? I didnt think it was all that successful, having to go f2p and all....

    Albion Online earned over 6 million $ last year ...
    While that sounds good and all, keep in mind that was about what GW1 was making at its lowest point in 2011. Before it was pretty much put into Maintenance Mode, as GW2 launched.

    • Albion Online has a strong market share in their industry
    • Revenue generated per employee is greater than industry average
    • Demonstrating revenue growth that is faster than the industry average
    • The number of employees is growing faster than the industry average
    • Revenue growth is more steady than the industry average
    • Since Albion Online was founded, the company has grown faster than the industry average
    • Web traffic rankings are better than the industry average 

      And ill add this is with 31 employees...


       Albion is no Crowfall but...,... yea // nv/m ... Lol not worth the energy .
    So.. why do these PvP games fail so hard, where you trying to say one is great, when it is looking about as successful as a dying PvE game?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

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    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Scot said:
    olepi said:

    Yes, PvP games are popular, just not in the MMO genre. Why not?
    You have the friction between the PvE only and the PvP at any cost crowd, but also they are far harder to balance. Games with mixed gameplay even solo games find balancing different types of gameplay tricky. Finally there is the bagge here of 'carebears and gankers', that flavours all these discussions and seems impossible to move past.

    What I notice though is that the PvE crowd has always been in favor of adding PvP servers to games. The opposite is sadly not so true though: it seems the PvP crowd, at least a non negligible part of it, wants to force others into their play style and are opposed to PvE servers in games with PvP.
    Honestly, I've always wondered what kind of game Eve would have ended up as if their community didn't have an extreme aversion to change.
    Assuming the developers wanted change, complete garbage. 
    cameltosisAlBQuirky
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Akulas said:
    Albion Online is successful and that's full loot PvP MMORPG.

    Is it? I didnt think it was all that successful, having to go f2p and all....

    Albion Online earned over 6 million $ last year ...
    While that sounds good and all, keep in mind that was about what GW1 was making at its lowest point in 2011. Before it was pretty much put into Maintenance Mode, as GW2 launched.

    • Albion Online has a strong market share in their industry
    • Revenue generated per employee is greater than industry average
    • Demonstrating revenue growth that is faster than the industry average
    • The number of employees is growing faster than the industry average
    • Revenue growth is more steady than the industry average
    • Since Albion Online was founded, the company has grown faster than the industry average
    • Web traffic rankings are better than the industry average 

      And ill add this is with 31 employees...


       Albion is no Crowfall but...,... yea // nv/m ... Lol not worth the energy .
    So.. why do these PvP games fail so hard, where you trying to say one is great, when it is looking about as successful as a dying PvE game?

    In truth, "Failure" is in the eye of the beholder."

    There is one "proof of failure" which is: "Is the game still running?"

    If the answer is yes, someone is making money (or using it as a tax write-off).

    If the answer is no, no one can, or will, play it. Or, the game had a good, long (10, 20 years), run and finally gave up.

    Many MMOs have fans that enjoy their games, but don't come anywhere near "WoW money" with which to measure them by.

    I find that "failure" is quite overused in any game discussion. Usually, the word is used in a derisive way to poo-poo some game being discussed.

    Just my opinion, of course :)
    Scorchien

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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