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Discussion: Why Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO's Fail

TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 9,569
Interesting listen, pretty decent summery.



As for myself I don't mind PvP and actually prefer games with a flag system and PvP in the open world as opposed to instances. These days I hate full loot PvP games as I would rather stick to one on one duels until squad based open world zergs until my character is strong enough to survive a fight against equal level opponents. I just do not have time for the death treadmill while leveling in owpvp games some folks seem to love. It doesn't add fun and danger, it it adds annoyance and headache and wastes real time and all you are doing is providing fodder to some chuckle head.

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Comments

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member RarePosts: 3,442
    edited September 14
    Just a FYI, Josh does satirical videos more for entertainment/comedy than fact. I've had discussions and debated his arguments in the past and he has stated it himself. 

    As for his video on this, he pretty much states the obvious, hardcore PvP players aren't remotely close to the majority, never will be. The same goes for hardcore PvE players. The vast majority of players are and will always be extremely casual.

    COD and Candy Crush have something on WoW, cash shop with lootboxes... So yeah, the income will always be higher when you implement microtransactions.

    As for Hardcore players being overly aggressive, yeah definitely. But if we're comparing hardcore PvP players to the "casual" communities using his example of Call of Duty... then the amount of aggressive hardcore players pales in comparison to the aggressive casual player base.

    As for your argument, yeah... it sounds like you're done with PvP for now.


    Post edited by Mtibbs1989 on
    AlBQuirky

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  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 9,569
    Just a FYI, Josh does satirical videos more for entertainment/comedy than fact. I've had discussions and debated his arguments in the past and he has stated it himself. 

    As for your argument, yeah... it sounds like you're done with PvP for now.



    Interesting assumption, though completely inaccurate.
    AlBQuirky
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  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member RarePosts: 3,442
    edited September 13
    "I just do not have time for the death treadmill while leveling in owpvp games some folks seem to love. It doesn't add fun and danger, it it adds annoyance and headache and wastes real time and all you are doing is providing fodder to some chuckle head."

    You went from full loot PvP to OW PvP. The two have very different meanings and characteristics...

    Eitherway, that's what I enjoyed about Warhammer Online. It didn't force new players into the midst of in-game politics. It warmed new players up to it by dividing the playerbase into level ranges and gave dedicated locations in the overarching world for full blown PvP.

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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,663
    edited September 13
    I suppose I should say I was implying large scale PvP. Specifically because of...

    " I just do not have time for the death treadmill while leveling in owpvp games some folks seem to love. It doesn't add fun and danger, it it adds annoyance and headache and wastes real time and all you are doing is providing fodder to some chuckle head."

    You went from full loot PvP to OW PvP.

    Those things are not mutually exclusive they can exist in the same game.

    It is pretty obvious as someone else pointed out but I believe the best iteration of PvP is in those games like Quake and other games where the playing field is balanced. You are looking at skill rather than being ganged up on by larger numbers.
    AlBQuirky

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member RarePosts: 3,442
    edited September 14
    kitarad said:
    I suppose I should say I was implying large scale PvP. Specifically because of...

    " I just do not have time for the death treadmill while leveling in owpvp games some folks seem to love. It doesn't add fun and danger, it it adds annoyance and headache and wastes real time and all you are doing is providing fodder to some chuckle head."

    You went from full loot PvP to OW PvP.

    Those things are not mutually exclusive they can exist in the same game.
    Right, but the way I read it I thought he was inferring that OW PvP and FL PVP games were synonymous.
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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,099
    edited September 14
    Watching it now. I found it funny that he had a page from this site with a several banned players. Um "oops."
    So far he's not wrong, the mmorpg genre IS small compared to other video games.

    Watched the whole video and I agree.
    MendelAlBQuirky
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member RarePosts: 3,442
    edited September 14
    kitarad said:
    I suppose I should say I was implying large scale PvP. Specifically because of...

    " I just do not have time for the death treadmill while leveling in owpvp games some folks seem to love. It doesn't add fun and danger, it it adds annoyance and headache and wastes real time and all you are doing is providing fodder to some chuckle head."

    You went from full loot PvP to OW PvP.

    Those things are not mutually exclusive they can exist in the same game.

    It is pretty obvious as someone else pointed out but I believe the best iteration of PvP is in those games like Quake and other games where the playing field is balanced. You are looking at skill rather than being ganged up on by larger numbers.
    Sure, but as newer shooters adopt RPG elements with modifications in guns, health bars, and armor the harder it will be balanced in them as well.

    People will always complain about balance even down to the most minute details.
    KyleranAlBQuirky

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 16,116
    Old video. Watched it a month ago.

    Anyway... he highlights quite well the main problem with full loot: it's great killing someone and getting some great loot but it also sucks to be the one losing the loot you spent hours or weeks getting.

    The typical solution to that has been to make the loot easy to get so you don't lose anything that's not easy to replace but in turn you also don't get great loot when killing someone. A side effect of this is that this "solution" kills off an MMO game play loop that most players find attractive: getting epic loot.

    New world actually has what I think is the best of both worlds: you can get epic loot when you kill someone but it doesn't come from them - it's loot generated from a similar RNG loot table as that used for mob drops.

    Probably not good enough for the real hardcore PvPers but fuck them :)
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,090
    I love the video at 6:40 where he shows these forums and half of the commenters are banned...


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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 16,116
    I love the video at 6:40 where he shows these forums and half of the commenters are banned...


    It's a thread from 2009. 12 years is plenty of time to get yourself banned.
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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,564
    Didn't watch the video but I know the reason. PvE players and casuals are the biggest part of the community. PvPers don't want to admit it. But when your majority of PvEers, crafters and casuals feel too beat up and move on. PvPers get board there are less people to kill. So the PvPers start to leave as well. 
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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,218
    They mostly fail, because there are not enough people want to be someone else's content and entertainment. I mean, obviously there are people that embrace the idea, but as it stands, there are not enough, so, only the very few truly exceptional games, can pull in the numbers to thrive.
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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 8,579
    edited September 14
    We've whipped this dead horse many times......In general, PVP appeals to a certain type of player, especially full loot PVP....I've never been ineterested because I have never seen it done well.....Usually you are either fighting players that are way more powerful. have numbers, or have spent alot in a P2W cash shop..... I just see most PVP MMOs as a waste of time.
    AlBQuirkyDeathkon1
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,533
    This is new and intresting just like the genre. Thanks OP.
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  • CanPantherCanPanther Member UncommonPosts: 30
    Wizardry Online was a full loot PvP game that had a cash shop with RNG boxes. Players could possibly win 'hidden slots', where you could place gear, and still use them, but it would be invisible to looters.

    Great concept. Bad implementation.
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 16,069
    bcbully said:
    This is new and intresting just like the genre. Thanks OP.
    Did someone body snatch Bcbully when we weren't looking? :)
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 16,069
    edited September 14
    I need to do a thread I guess called:

    Why Hardcore Full PvE Only MMO's Fail

    Without any sort of PvP a MMORPg's longevity is put at risk.

    DibdabsKidRiskAlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,441
    Scot said:
    bcbully said:
    This is new and intresting just like the genre. Thanks OP.
    Did someone body snatch Bcbully when we weren't looking? :)
    Naw, he was just false flagging us.


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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,441
    Wizardry Online was a full loot PvP game that had a cash shop with RNG boxes. Players could possibly win 'hidden slots', where you could place gear, and still use them, but it would be invisible to looters.

    Great concept. Bad implementation.
    Also had a possibility of permadeath as I recall....ugh
    AlBQuirky

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  • WargfootWargfoot Member RarePosts: 726
    I think Iselin got to the root of the problem and that is part of the gameplay loop for MMORPGs is epic loot and losing it is simply too much of a bummer.

    I'd add to that progression where another player can become totally untouchable to a new player.

    So an open world full loot PvP game needs a different design and up until now what we've gotten is largely PvE games with goofy rulesets.

    I hope a developer actually puts some thought into one at some point.
    AlBQuirky
  • nursonurso Member UncommonPosts: 101
    edited September 14
    Most hardcore full loot PVP MMO's fail because (i) one can't refuse to participate, (ii) there is no safety net and (iii) justice has to be enforced with the sword.

    AlBQuirky
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member RarePosts: 3,442
    edited September 14
    Kyleran said:
    Wizardry Online was a full loot PvP game that had a cash shop with RNG boxes. Players could possibly win 'hidden slots', where you could place gear, and still use them, but it would be invisible to looters.

    Great concept. Bad implementation.
    Also had a possibility of permadeath as I recall....ugh
    Yep, I learned that one from experience, lol.

    If I recall correctly, it was also released with very little advertising and shut down shortly after that.
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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 9,006
    More seriously, they fail because of one mechanic they fail to implement correctly: harsh punishment for mindless killing.

    A PvP MMORPG, even if FFA, should favor faction wars and very harshly punish mindless ganking, specially newbie ganking. The problem is to implement a justice system that can't be cheated or exploited, and to have the balls to make the life of the serial killer wannabees very, very hard just like in "real" life.
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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,744
    edited September 14
    Iselin said:
    fuck them :)
    Thank you Sir! 

    That is actually a nice formula. Is it as the bigger player you'd kill the better of a loot you'd get? 
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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 8,579
    edited September 14
    Kyleran said:
    Wizardry Online was a full loot PvP game that had a cash shop with RNG boxes. Players could possibly win 'hidden slots', where you could place gear, and still use them, but it would be invisible to looters.

    Great concept. Bad implementation.
    Also had a possibility of permadeath as I recall....ugh

    LOL yeah I remember playing the beta for this.....I remember being in a cave and killing my first mob....I had maybe 25-30% of my health left, and some loser attacks  me and kills me two seconds after I killed the mob.....Games like this just tick me off.... I never understood the "I have to kill other players" mentality....It had some sort of mechanic where there was a chance you lived, and I did but was immdeiately killed again a couple minutes later and that time I didn't get my character back..... Uninstall.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
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