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[Article] Star Citizen: A $400+ Million Gaming Project With No Release Date In Sight.

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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,572
    edited August 2021
    Babuinix said:
    lahnmir said:
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A.
    You still don't get it? There is no point A to begin with. It's a non issue that anyone with a clue would have come to realise just by observing the changes during development of many other (crowdfunded and normal) games development in this same forum.

    Cherry picking out of context phrases of dev's from years ago like it's some kind of gotcha is the only childish and tiring act here.

    Specially so when it's done by people who don't even seem to have actual knowledge or actual interest in this game (or gaming in general) besides the drama and rolling in the mud. :D

    Oh well, maybe someday ya'll can re-learn to enjoy games and appreciate game developers effort, until then:


    B)
    So according to Babs.  Developers can promise anything they want and not keep to a schedule at all as long as the players enjoy what they have.  and as long as people keep giving them money.

    This is why I have no respect for your stance.  You have zero integrity. 

    Any reasonable fanboy can at least say "yeah CR has done a really bad job at sticking to deadlines and promises, but I like what he's given us and I can wait another ten years for SQ32 if that's what it takes." 
    Babuinix
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2021
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  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    edited August 2021
    Babuinix said:
    lahnmir said:
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A.
    You still don't get it? There is no point A to begin with. It's a non issue that anyone with a clue would have come to realise just by observing the changes during development of many other (crowdfunded and normal) games development in this same forum.

    Cherry picking out of context phrases of dev's from years ago like it's some kind of gotcha is the only childish and tiring act here.

    Specially so when it's done by people who don't even seem to have actual knowledge or actual interest in this game (or gaming in general) besides the drama and rolling in the mud. :D

    Oh well, maybe someday ya'll can re-learn to enjoy games and appreciate game developers effort, until then:


    B)
    So according to Babs.  Developers can promise anything they want and not keep to a schedule at all as long as the players enjoy what they have.  and as long as people keep giving them money.

    This is why I have no respect for your stance.  You have zero integrity. 

    Any reasonable fanboy can at least say "yeah CR has done a really bad job at sticking to deadlines and promises, but I like what he's given us and I can wait another ten years for SQ32 if that's what it takes." 
    Developers aren't even obligated to give you a product at the end of the day. Just as an example, they could call a project a failure due to funding and leave it at that.

    Does that mean that it creates a whole new slew of issues for said company? Absolutely, backers for example would immediately label the company/employees as scammers, audit inquiries would happen, and potential lawsuits. But, if it all checks out and a project legitimately failed, backers will get nothing in return.


    Not knowing when/if a product will ever release is the sole reason I never supported Kickstarters.
    As per original Kickstarter agreement, the devs need to deliver released game or give full refund to Star Citizen backers.

    To those who backed on RSI's website, the devs need to either deliver the game/virtual items, or post an audited cost accounting for money they have received to game development and refund any unused money.
     
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2021
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Post edited by [Deleted User] on

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,721
    Vrika said:
    Babuinix said:
    lahnmir said:
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A.
    You still don't get it? There is no point A to begin with. It's a non issue that anyone with a clue would have come to realise just by observing the changes during development of many other (crowdfunded and normal) games development in this same forum.

    Cherry picking out of context phrases of dev's from years ago like it's some kind of gotcha is the only childish and tiring act here.

    Specially so when it's done by people who don't even seem to have actual knowledge or actual interest in this game (or gaming in general) besides the drama and rolling in the mud. :D

    Oh well, maybe someday ya'll can re-learn to enjoy games and appreciate game developers effort, until then:


    B)
    So according to Babs.  Developers can promise anything they want and not keep to a schedule at all as long as the players enjoy what they have.  and as long as people keep giving them money.

    This is why I have no respect for your stance.  You have zero integrity. 

    Any reasonable fanboy can at least say "yeah CR has done a really bad job at sticking to deadlines and promises, but I like what he's given us and I can wait another ten years for SQ32 if that's what it takes." 
    Developers aren't even obligated to give you a product at the end of the day. Just as an example, they could call a project a failure due to funding and leave it at that.

    Does that mean that it creates a whole new slew of issues for said company? Absolutely, backers for example would immediately label the company/employees as scammers, audit inquiries would happen, and potential lawsuits. But, if it all checks out and a project legitimately failed, backers will get nothing in return.


    Not knowing when/if a product will ever release is the sole reason I never supported Kickstarters.
    As per original Kickstarter agreement, the devs need to deliver released game or give full refund to Star Citizen backers.

    To those who backed on RSI's website, the devs need to either deliver the game/virtual items, or post an audited cost accounting for money they have received to game development and refund any unused money.
    uh really? That's news to me. I was under the impression that no kickstarter was guaranteed. They even say there is no guarantee that giving your money to  a project will result in an actual project.

    But you're saying they had a different agreement? ok! I'll check that out as I've never seen that.
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 2,402
    RSI's website is very clear that you are not pre-ordering, you are not "buying" anything, you are merely donating to a possible future product. There is no guarantee of a product at all.

    If you donate X amount, you can get access to whatever they have now, and some specific items. Once you receive the items, and use them in the game, they are considered delivered.

    If the game never releases, nobody gets their money back. That way, RSI has little to no legal exposure.

    ------------
    2022: 45 years on the Net.


  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    Sovrath said:
    Vrika said:
    Babuinix said:
    lahnmir said:
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A.
    You still don't get it? There is no point A to begin with. It's a non issue that anyone with a clue would have come to realise just by observing the changes during development of many other (crowdfunded and normal) games development in this same forum.

    Cherry picking out of context phrases of dev's from years ago like it's some kind of gotcha is the only childish and tiring act here.

    Specially so when it's done by people who don't even seem to have actual knowledge or actual interest in this game (or gaming in general) besides the drama and rolling in the mud. :D

    Oh well, maybe someday ya'll can re-learn to enjoy games and appreciate game developers effort, until then:


    B)
    So according to Babs.  Developers can promise anything they want and not keep to a schedule at all as long as the players enjoy what they have.  and as long as people keep giving them money.

    This is why I have no respect for your stance.  You have zero integrity. 

    Any reasonable fanboy can at least say "yeah CR has done a really bad job at sticking to deadlines and promises, but I like what he's given us and I can wait another ten years for SQ32 if that's what it takes." 
    Developers aren't even obligated to give you a product at the end of the day. Just as an example, they could call a project a failure due to funding and leave it at that.

    Does that mean that it creates a whole new slew of issues for said company? Absolutely, backers for example would immediately label the company/employees as scammers, audit inquiries would happen, and potential lawsuits. But, if it all checks out and a project legitimately failed, backers will get nothing in return.


    Not knowing when/if a product will ever release is the sole reason I never supported Kickstarters.
    As per original Kickstarter agreement, the devs need to deliver released game or give full refund to Star Citizen backers.

    To those who backed on RSI's website, the devs need to either deliver the game/virtual items, or post an audited cost accounting for money they have received to game development and refund any unused money.
    uh really? That's news to me. I was under the impression that no kickstarter was guaranteed. They even say there is no guarantee that giving your money to  a project will result in an actual project.

    But you're saying they had a different agreement? ok! I'll check that out as I've never seen that.
    Back when Star Citizen had their Kickstarter campaign Kickstarter still had terms that required project creator to either deliver the promised rewards or refund. They have changed it since then.

    Of course there is still no guarantee, since there's always the chance that the company can go bankrupt.
     
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    olepi said:
    RSI's website is very clear that you are not pre-ordering, you are not "buying" anything, you are merely donating to a possible future product. There is no guarantee of a product at all.

    If you donate X amount, you can get access to whatever they have now, and some specific items. Once you receive the items, and use them in the game, they are considered delivered.

    If the game never releases, nobody gets their money back. That way, RSI has little to no legal exposure.
    Not completely true, currently if you back the game the agreement between you and RSI says:

    "...In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Pledge Item(s), and/or the Game, RSI agrees to refund any unearned portion of your Pledge Funds, and to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the funds raised for the Game Cost"

    Source: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos
     
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2021
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,331
    "As per original Kickstarter agreement, the devs need to deliver released game or give full refund to Star Citizen backers."

    Can you imagine if some agency forced SC to return almost 400M to its backers? lol that would be great drama for sure.
    Sovrath
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,721




    As I implied before, it'd be IMO virtually impossible for a project like Star Citizen to be considered fraudulent and at that point, the only thing you could do is sue for the amount paid. 

    If they've already filed or in the process of filing for it, good luck getting a 100% refund, it's already too late.
    I can't imagine they would be able to refund all of that.
    Mendel
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

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    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 2,402
    Vrika said:
    olepi said:
    RSI's website is very clear that you are not pre-ordering, you are not "buying" anything, you are merely donating to a possible future product. There is no guarantee of a product at all.

    If you donate X amount, you can get access to whatever they have now, and some specific items. Once you receive the items, and use them in the game, they are considered delivered.

    If the game never releases, nobody gets their money back. That way, RSI has little to no legal exposure.
    Not completely true, currently if you back the game the agreement between you and RSI says:

    "...In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Pledge Item(s), and/or the Game, RSI agrees to refund any unearned portion of your Pledge Funds, and to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the funds raised for the Game Cost"

    Source: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos

    Right, So let's say you pledge for a package, and it has ship X. Once you fly ship X in the game, you got what you paid for. If tomorrow, they fold the game and you lose ship X, you get nothing back.

    If you pledged and never got ship X, because they folded before you got it, you'd get your money back.

    ------------
    2022: 45 years on the Net.


  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    olepi said:
    Vrika said:
    olepi said:
    RSI's website is very clear that you are not pre-ordering, you are not "buying" anything, you are merely donating to a possible future product. There is no guarantee of a product at all.

    If you donate X amount, you can get access to whatever they have now, and some specific items. Once you receive the items, and use them in the game, they are considered delivered.

    If the game never releases, nobody gets their money back. That way, RSI has little to no legal exposure.
    Not completely true, currently if you back the game the agreement between you and RSI says:

    "...In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Pledge Item(s), and/or the Game, RSI agrees to refund any unearned portion of your Pledge Funds, and to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the funds raised for the Game Cost"

    Source: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos

    Right, So let's say you pledge for a package, and it has ship X. Once you fly ship X in the game, you got what you paid for. If tomorrow, they fold the game and you lose ship X, you get nothing back.

    If you pledged and never got ship X, because they folded before you got it, you'd get your money back.
    You'd still get something for the other items in package that were not delivered.

    But yes, the ship itself is considered to have been delivered once it's flyable in game.
     
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,976
    Babuinix said:
    lahnmir said:
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A.
    You still don't get it? There is no point A to begin with. It's a non issue that anyone with a clue would have come to realise just by observing the changes during development of many other (crowdfunded and normal) games development in this same forum.

    Cherry picking out of context phrases of dev's from years ago like it's some kind of gotcha is the only childish and tiring act here.

    Specially so when it's done by people who don't even seem to have actual knowledge or actual interest in this game (or gaming in general) besides the drama and rolling in the mud. :D

    Oh well, maybe someday ya'll can re-learn to enjoy games and appreciate game developers effort, until then:


    B)
    So according to Babs.  Developers can promise anything they want and not keep to a schedule at all as long as the players enjoy what they have.  and as long as people keep giving them money.

    This is why I have no respect for your stance.  You have zero integrity. 

    Any reasonable fanboy can at least say "yeah CR has done a really bad job at sticking to deadlines and promises, but I like what he's given us and I can wait another ten years for SQ32 if that's what it takes." 
    Not acording to babs lol

    According to real life, unless you're you living in a separate personal instance or in a cave without internet this shouldn't be news at all or crying worthy :D

    CR as done a better job at making the dream space game many people enjoy, that's why new players keep joining the game and they keep making millions every year .

    That you're still so eager for CR's game should be telling enough of it's merits lol

    Just try to keep it mature and reasonable, crying and nagging "are we there yet" is useless. Better time would be spent investing in ways to get2 a gaming PC capable of running the game at defent frames lol

    But that would be too much to ask when the focus is drama. Check.




  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,316
    <snip - interesting discussion>

    <snip -- all good stuff, go read it>
    I love how they include the phrase "traditional funding systems are risk-averse and profit-focused" to excuse (and even allow) failures.  I have yet to see any game remotely touted as an MMORPG as being anything other than risk-averse and profit-focused.

    But even this modicum of a disclaimer doesn't prohibit game developers to abandon the entire Kickstarter process at the first opportunity.  Star Citizen has their millions and millions, mostly garnered through their own collection systems (not Kickstarter).  Even assuming that the original Kickstarter project could be held liable in court, that might cover the 1st million of the approximately $400 million they've collected.  What happens to that other approximately $399 million?

    I do not see any salvation from Kickstarter, in this case.



    Arglebargle

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,183
    olepi said:
    RSI's website is very clear that you are not pre-ordering, you are not "buying" anything, you are merely donating to a possible future product. There is no guarantee of a product at all.

    If you donate X amount, you can get access to whatever they have now, and some specific items. Once you receive the items, and use them in the game, they are considered delivered.

    If the game never releases, nobody gets their money back. That way, RSI has little to no legal exposure.
    Aren't there taxes on that 'donation'?  Pretty sure that means it's not a donation in legal terms.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,183
    olepi said:
    Star Citizen suffers from a problem that has long been known in software development:

    "Featuritis or creeping featurism is the tendency for the number of features in a product (usually software product) to rise with each release of the product. What may have been a cohesive and consistent design in the early versions may end up as a patchwork of added features. And with extra features comes extra complexity. As Donald Norman explains: "Complexity probably increases as the square of the features: double the number of features, quadruple the complexity. Provide ten times as many features, multiply the complexity by one hundred." (Norman 1988: p. 174)"

    This problem is very common, and requires strong management to avoid. SC has no strong management like that. In fact, they haven't even released anything yet, and are suffering a bad case of feeping creaturism.


    Thing is, this is a historical problem with Chris Roberts, from the very beginning of his gaming career.  Even when he had a solid company to support his efforts, he always succumbed to this. He's never managed to learn from his mistakes. It's a part of his nature.

    He did, apparantly, learn about marketing  Hollywood-style, and has deployed one of gaming's best examples of cult marketing and cult branding.
    Iselin

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,976
    So if the reason of Star Citizen delays is Chris Roberts and Scope Creep how do you guys explain those same delays in many other games like Ashes of Creation, Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, Cyberpunk, Beyond Good & Evil 2, New World etc? :D
  • StizzledStizzled Member EpicPosts: 2,577
    Babuinix said:
    So if the reason of Star Citizen delays is Chris Roberts and Scope Creep how do you guys explain those same delays in many other games like Ashes of Creation, Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, Cyberpunk, Beyond Good & Evil 2, New World etc? :D
    Ask us again in several years when all of those games have released (or finally been cancelled) and SC is still in alpha.
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,183
    They aren't all the same delays Bab.  There can be a ton of interlocking reasons, from marketing, to refactoring, to unrealistic expectations, to trying to fit an advanced game onto an old console (hello Cyberpunk77), etc.

    But bad management is always a good force multiplier for developmental problems.
    Mendel

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,976
    edited August 2021
    Stizzled said:
    Babuinix said:
    So if the reason of Star Citizen delays is Chris Roberts and Scope Creep how do you guys explain those same delays in many other games like Ashes of Creation, Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, Cyberpunk, Beyond Good & Evil 2, New World etc? :D
    Ask us again in several years when all of those games have released (or finally been cancelled) and SC is still in alpha.
    Don't you think it's relevant now? B)
    They aren't all the same delays Bab.  There can be a ton of interlocking reasons, from marketing, to refactoring, to unrealistic expectations, to trying to fit an advanced game onto an old console (hello Cyberpunk77), etc.
    But bad management is always a good force multiplier for developmental problems.
    So why do so many games are delayed so often, is the upper management of so many different studios just as bad?






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,909
    Babuinix said:
    Stizzled said:
    Babuinix said:
    So if the reason of Star Citizen delays is Chris Roberts and Scope Creep how do you guys explain those same delays in many other games like Ashes of Creation, Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, Cyberpunk, Beyond Good & Evil 2, New World etc? :D
    Ask us again in several years when all of those games have released (or finally been cancelled) and SC is still in alpha.
    Don't you think it's relevant now? B)
    They aren't all the same delays Bab.  There can be a ton of interlocking reasons, from marketing, to refactoring, to unrealistic expectations, to trying to fit an advanced game onto an old console (hello Cyberpunk77), etc.
    But bad management is always a good force multiplier for developmental problems.
    So why do so many games are delayed so often, is the upper management of so many different studios just as bad?






    Apparently so.  Good thing skyscraper construction or Mars landings aren't made by game dev mgmt, we'd never see any of them finished.


    Arglebargle

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,572
    Babuinix said:
    So if the reason of Star Citizen delays is Chris Roberts and Scope Creep how do you guys explain those same delays in many other games like Ashes of Creation, Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, Cyberpunk, Beyond Good & Evil 2, New World etc? :D
    Show us the quantity of quotes for those games that we have for SC.  Especially ones promising release of features (or the game) the same year or next.  We can wait ...
    Babuinix
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,976
    Babuinix said:
    So if the reason of Star Citizen delays is Chris Roberts and Scope Creep how do you guys explain those same delays in many other games like Ashes of Creation, Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, Cyberpunk, Beyond Good & Evil 2, New World etc? :D
    Show us the quantity of quotes for those games that we have for SC.  Especially ones promising release of features (or the game) the same year or next.  We can wait ...
    Just grab any early Developer indepth interview or trailer about any game and you'll find discrepancies with reality. Have you forgot about Cyberpunk or NMS launch state and feature set vs what was teased/talked about? Have you seen the pitch videos and plans of most kickstarted mmos?

    Btw , there's gaming articles with many dev's explaining just that some posts above. Highly recomended.

    Change is a general occurrence in game dev world.

    The only abnormal thing in that collection of quotes is the seemingly creepy level of obssession that one individual developed for a game he doesn't like lol

    Reminds me those Hollywood serial killers  movies where when they show the psycho's room the walls are covered in quotes and articles about whatever celebrity he became obssessed about.

    Then again, he's a known hardent elite: dangerous fanboy... Their inferiority complex about Star Citizen can run quite deep.  :D
    Kyleran
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