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Future Upgrades

BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
Hello people, I'm trying to compile a list of what parts I'm going to get around the time of Black Friday deals. Since the prices of GPUs are still through the roof, I'm still going to keep my msi gtx 1080 and upgrade the Motherboard, CPU, Ram, and Case (maybe an additional SSD as well).

Now, the first big dilemma is; my room is not that spacious, plus it gets quite hot (especially with the heatwave we currently have) in the summer. So, I was considering building in this case specifically: https://www.thermaltake.com/the-tower-100-mini-chassis.html Alternatively, if I go for a mid tower, I was considering one of the Fractal Meshify versions: https://www.fractal-design.com/products/cases/meshify/

Obviously, if I go with something like that, the motherboard, cooling and perhaps even my current PSU need to be taken into consideration due to size limitation. For CPU I am heavily leaning for AMD as they been going strong lately. This obviously means I need to find a motherboard that caters to that processor. I'm still unsure whether its worth going for Ryzen 9 over 7 for gaming. 

For cpu cooling, I'm still debating whether I should go for water cooling or good ole reliable noctua (it fits I checked on youtube). On one hand, water cooling scares me a little, but I can't deny its effectiveness. On the other hand, I saw some comparisons of air cooling like noctua reaching or surpassing water cooling options. 

Lastly, for ram, I'll probably go for 32 GB and not more. I see no point in going higher than that. 

That should be all. As far as pricing goes, I don't really have a cap. However, aside from the CPU and its cooling the rest shouldn't be that much expensive. I'm from Europe, but since I'm making this list for the future, I'm mainly looking for suggestions on 1) mini tower vs mid tower and 2) what motherboard to buy for AMD and be future proof. If you require additional information, I'll add more.

Thanks!

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Comments

  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,393
    edited August 2021
    For cases, going larger is better at keeping components cool. As for ambient room temperatures, the case doesn't matter since the components will still produce the same amount of heat.
    I would opt for a Ryzen 7 unless you have a specific use case for the Ryzen 9. The performance difference is not significant enough to justify the costs if you are not using more cores. For mobos, I would lean towards a MicroATX. I find the 6 slots on an ATX board to be a waste of space.
    For CPU cooling, it depends on the cooler. A large tower style cooler that uses 120mm fans may cool as well as a closed loop 120mm cooler since its a similar amount of cooling surface.
    BloodaxesRidelynn
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    edited August 2021
    The biggest reason for considering a smaller case is space. I really want to get a 2nd monitor, but with my big ass tower taking so much space on my desk, I can't fit one :( 

    If I get a smaller case, I can surely fit it underneath my L shaped desk and have ample space for a 2nd monitor. Alternatively, if I still keep it on my desk, with a smaller case I could also place a monitor in front of it.

    But yes, heat can be an issue, so I'm considering both options. 

  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,393
    A mid tower should fit underneath. I don't think that Thermaltake is what you want if you are looking for small. It's more a design piece with low airflow piece.
    MiniITX small case comparison:
    Thermaltake The Tower 100 Mini Chassis 462.8mm H x 266mm W x 266 mm L
    ZZAW B1 Mid-Tower 235mm H x 140mm W x 310mm L

    They can get smaller than that as well. But with a mini-ITX there are a couple big drawbacks. 2 Memory Dims, 2 expansion slots which is usually consumed by 1 GPU, and worse heat management of components.
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    edited August 2021
    Cleffy said:
    A mid tower should fit underneath. I don't think that Thermaltake is what you want if you are looking for small. It's more a design piece with low airflow piece.
    MiniITX small case comparison:
    Thermaltake The Tower 100 Mini Chassis 462.8mm H x 266mm W x 266 mm L
    ZZAW B1 Mid-Tower 235mm H x 140mm W x 310mm L

    They can get smaller than that as well. But with a mini-ITX there are a couple big drawbacks. 2 Memory Dims, 2 expansion slots which is usually consumed by 1 GPU, and worse heat management of components.
    To conserve space, the desk I bought while being an L shape, isn't technically 1 piece. The side part is on wheels and goes underneath the main part. On top of that, the side part has a compartment so there's no place to pass wires through. While my mid tower could technically fit, there would be barely any airflow. 

    Also, you're correct. The thermaltake case is not exactly a mini-ITX, but it is still less wide than a mid tower which is why I'm considering it. As you said, you have to gimp too much your system to fit everything well in a mini-ITX case. This case doesn't require that much sacrifice to fit stuff in it besides losing some possible airflow (depending on what you use as well).
    Post edited by Bloodaxes on

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,940
    edited August 2021
    Keep in mind a smaller case in a room with a higher amb temp...it will run hotter. 

    My son has a small PC desk and limited room so the  CM Storm Enforcer he is using is tucked underneath his desk (sideways) where your feet are  when you are sitting at it.


    It was either put it there or the top shelf over his monitor which might have been better except  the kitty cat likes to lie down there and watch him when he is on his PC.

    Both those spot will not cut into airflow very much and even with the case underneath there he still has room to sit at his desk no issues.

    Bloodaxes

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    Asm0deus said:
    Keep in mind a smaller case in a room with a higher amb temp...it will run hotter. 
    Totally. I'm going to purchase these in "winter" (the weather is too fucked up now... can't say for certain) so it shouldn't be a huge problem.

    I am eventually going to move out of this room which will alleviate the heat issue a lot.  However, space will still be a concern which is why I'm still considering it (plus it looks cool). 

    My main concern is the motherboard as these versions X570, B550, X470, and B450 are kinda confusing when considering the CPU I'm going to get. Its either Ryzen 5 5600x or Ryzen 7 5800x unless I find a good deal on a 5900x+.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,940
    edited August 2021
    All those board should be able to run those cpu's, the main difference is the chipset.

    The x470 and b450 are the older chipset from the older model boards that are PCIe 3.0.  with the lower number b450 being the budget boards.

    Here's a tier list for the EOL boards:


    and here's an updated list with some of the newer baords:


    Those in blue are better than the other boards in that list, those in orange barely made it into the list.

    Myself I would look for a new board in the second updates tier list like a x570 or B550.

    The x570 chipset are full PCIe 4.0 while the B550 boards, even though they came out after the x570 for some odd reason, are hybrid half PCie 3.0 and half PCIe 4.0




    You can see here the B550 boards runs the gpu at PCIe 4.0 and some storage but the rest of the chipset run at PCIe 3.0.

    Personally I went with a msi x570 tomahawk since I will be keeping it 5+ years so wanted full PCIe 4.0.



    Bloodaxes[Deleted User]Ridelynn

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    Thanks for the explanation and links! Really appreciate it.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,940
    edited August 2021
    Bloodaxes said:
    Thanks for the explanation and links! Really appreciate it.

    BTW  if you buy an older board be sure to check and see if the bios has been updated for the new ryzen  5xxx cpu's. Most should be by now but good to keep an eye on in case you get an older board.

    BTW the x570 are the bigger budget boards and B550 the "budget" boards.

    I went with a x570 tomahawk wifi to go with my ryzen 5800x since in the x570, which are really expensive it is priced like a B550 board but competes with the big 500$+ x570 boards.

    I haven't looked to much into the B550 since I wasn't interested in a hybrid  PCIe board.

    Oh if you go with a small case and smaller form factor keep in minds lots of the boards are regular sized atx boards so you might have to hunt down reviews and commentary about how good the smaller mini/micro atx boards are.




    [Deleted User]

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,356
    edited August 2021
    I will say - the size of your case will have nothing to do with how hot your computer makes your room. It will affect the temperature of the components, but energy is energy, and every bit that goes into the computer will eventually make it out into your room.

    Your selection of CPU and GPU will have the biggest impact on that:

    Intel CPUs tend to use a lot more energy than AMD right now.

    Higher tier GPUs will use a lot more energy than lower tier ones. Top tier cards like the 3090 and 6900XT use a lot.

    And overclocks use a lot more energy than stock clocks.

    Your room is going to heat up depending on the energy burned by all those components. Your components will heat up based on how well you can pump that energy off into your room - the better your cooling, the faster you are moving the heat buildup into your room, and the lower your temps on your components will be.

    Post edited by Ridelynn on
    [Deleted User]Asm0deus
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,356
    edited August 2021
    I can also touch on the air vs water cooling thing a bit.

    I would distinguish between an AIO (All-In-One) versus a custom water loop. A custom water loop is the best cooling you can do, hands down. It's also the most involved, has the most risk of things going wrong, and can be extremely expensive. AIOs simplify that down to a pre-packaged bundle that is pretty easy to install, but you will lose some performance in the commoditization of it.

    I will assume we are talking about AIOs from here on out, as custom cooling loops are an entirely different beast.

    Both air and AIO are effective - top end air coolers can beat out the performance lower end AIOs for about the same price.

    Air has the advantage that it's simple, and not much can go wrong with it. They can also be easier to install - although I have had some air coolers that are a royal PITA to get mounted, so I wouldn't necessarily call them universally easier to install. The only real moving parts are the fans, and those are usually pretty easy to change out if needed.

    AIOs are pretty solid - I have never seen one leak (not to say it's impossible), and the pumps are pretty reliable. You can reasonably expect it to live about as long as the fans in an air cooler do. But the pump is another moving component, and in an AIO, if the pump goes out, you have to replace the entire AIO. Fans on them are just like the fans on an air cooler though, and just as easy to replace.

    Where AIOs have the big advantage - you can direct where you want the heat to go exactly. Which is great if you have a smaller case.

    With an air cooler, the heat is going from your CPU to inside the case, then you need to have the case ventilation move it out. Apart from installing some complicated baffles inside your case, you don't really have any other options when using an air cooler.

    With an AIO, you can chose where to place the radiator and how to direct the fans, so you can keep the heat from your CPU from being dumped inside your case in the first place. This means everything will tend to run a bit cooler, as the CPU doesn't have to compete with the energy released by the other components (and vice-versa) when dumping energy to inside the case.

    Another benefit to an AIO is that you get a bigger area to work with so you can use bigger fans and/or more fans, which can increase the cooling capacity and/or make the rig quieter for the same level of performance. With air coolers, you only have so much physical space to work with right on top of the CPU before you bump into RAM, VRM coolers, and the side of the case itself.

    The pumps in AIOs are for the most part silent - or at least they should be. If you can hear it under normal conditions with the case closed up, something is wrong and you should RMA it.

    When just looking at CPU cooling performance, a top-tier air cooler can beat out low and mid-tier AIOs that cost about the same. But you will still have those side benefits on an AIO that the air cooler just can't do no matter what you spend on it. I'd say if you are looking at spending much more than about $60USD on your CPU cooler (and I could argue less than that even), you probably ought to just go ahead and move up to an AIO unless your choice of cases just prohibits it or you are just really turned off by water cooling in the first place.

    For AIOs, I wouldn't recommend looking at anything smaller than a 240 (double-fan) radiator. There are 120mm single-fan units out there, which for really small builds might make some sense, but you lose out on the second benefit of AIOs I mention above, and it makes the economics of it not that great. The difference between a 240 and 360 (double vs triple) is mostly going to be in noise -- you can run 3 fans at a lower speed (and lower noise) than you can two for the same amount of performance. Yeah, you can get more performance out of 360, but it won't be a huge amount more than 240.
    Post edited by Ridelynn on
    BloodaxesAsm0deus
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    Thanks for the rundown of air vs water cooling ridelynn! You made me debate more going for one or the other now haha. However, you're right. A water cooler (especially for smaller cases) gives you more room to "breath" unlike big bulky air cooler.

    Guess I'm leaning more for water cooling now. All that's left is what CPU I should go for, and ram I guess. That shouldn't be a big hassle tough. Will look for options and see whether higher MHz is worth x amount of price jump.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,940
    Also keep in mind AIO tend to not last as long as a air cooler in that when a pump breaks down or goes faulty or there issues with the liquid inside you need to change the whole thing.

    Air coolers only thing that can go wrong is the fans dies, you replace it and done not need even remove the heatsink itself.

    I say this with probably a bias though since I am using a old noctua nh D14 in my pc that is like 10 years old or so with the original fans and it still working great to cool my 5800x. 

    I dare any AIO to claim the same lol
    :D
    Bloodaxes

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    Asm0deus said:
    Also keep in mind AIO tend to not last as long as a air cooler in that when a pump breaks down or goes faulty or there issues with the liquid inside you need to change the whole thing.

    Air coolers only thing that can go wrong is the fans dies, you replace it and done not need even remove the heatsink itself.

    I say this with probably a bias though since I am using a old noctua nh D14 in my pc that is like 10 years old or so with the original fans and it still working great to cool my 5800x. 

    I dare any AIO to claim the same lol
    :D
    Yeah, I know fully well haha. I only purchased one AIO and it died in a year or two. Since then, I went back to air coolers. As you said, fans are cheap to replace.

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,356
    Bloodaxes said:
    Guess I'm leaning more for water cooling now. All that's left is what CPU I should go for, and ram I guess. That shouldn't be a big hassle tough. Will look for options and see whether higher MHz is worth x amount of price jump.
    With AMD, your paying more for core count than frequency. Mostly just decide how many cores you think you need. For general gaming/PC purposes, 6 cores is still overkill, 8 is really nice, and anything over that is ... really only good for some specific purposes


  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,422
    Ridelynn said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    Guess I'm leaning more for water cooling now. All that's left is what CPU I should go for, and ram I guess. That shouldn't be a big hassle tough. Will look for options and see whether higher MHz is worth x amount of price jump.
    With AMD, your paying more for core count than frequency. Mostly just decide how many cores you think you need. 
    This.

    If you buy Ryzen 5800X instead of 5600X you'll get only 2% increase in boost clock speed. Getting 5900X instead of 5800X would give you further 2% extra, and getting 5950X instead of 5900X would again give you 2% extra boost clock speed.

    The 2% speed increases are a marketing strategy so that you'd always get some benefit from a more expensive CPU, but it's so small difference that with AMD's current generation you should just ignore that 2% difference. Decide how many cores you need, and then purchase based on that.
    RidelynnTruvidienn
     
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    edited August 2021
    For CPU I'm going for either the 5600x or 5800x depending on the price difference around November. While the 5600x is still great for gaming, the additional 2 cores could theoretically be useful in the future.

    Hmm.... There doesn't seem to be that many (or any) x570 mini itx motherboards sold in my country. That could be a problem with the smaller case.

    I am a little afraid on buying them from amazon or some other online store since they're fragile. However, many order them online so it can't be that bad.

  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,422
    Bloodaxes said:

    I am a little afraid on buying them from amazon or some other online store since they're fragile. However, many order them online so it can't be that bad.
    Motherboards aren't that fragile and they're packaged quite well. I wouldn't be too concerned about it breaking down. If the post system in your home country is unreliable, I'd be more concerned about it being lost or stolen during transit, but something like motherboard breaking in transit is rare enough.
    BloodaxesRidelynn
     
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    Vrika said:
    Bloodaxes said:

    I am a little afraid on buying them from amazon or some other online store since they're fragile. However, many order them online so it can't be that bad.
    Motherboards aren't that fragile and they're packaged quite well. I wouldn't be too concerned about it breaking down. If the post system in your home country is unreliable, I'd be more concerned about it being lost or stolen during transit, but something like motherboard breaking in transit is rare enough.
    That's good to hear. It's probably going to be my only option if I stick with the smaller case. I like the fractal meshify as well, but the compactness of the smaller one ensures that I can 100% be able to fit a monitor (or 2) on my desk without any compromises.

    Also, from the looks of it, the thermaltake tower 100 case only allows 140mm fans and the top and sides, so AIO is out of the question based on Ridelynn explanation above. I'd rather have a noctua air cooler that's guaranteed to be good than a small AIO that might not keep up. 

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,356
    Unless you are running SLI/Crossfire (and why would you today, it's dead), are into competition overclocking, or have some other specific requirement - a good B550 motherboard will be a heck of a lot cheaper and you would never notice the difference. 
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    Ridelynn said:
    Unless you are running SLI/Crossfire (and why would you today, it's dead), are into competition overclocking, or have some other specific requirement - a good B550 motherboard will be a heck of a lot cheaper and you would never notice the difference. 
    Isn't the x570 the newer technology tough? Since there's the AM4 now with amd.

  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,422
    edited August 2021
    Bloodaxes said:
    Ridelynn said:
    Unless you are running SLI/Crossfire (and why would you today, it's dead), are into competition overclocking, or have some other specific requirement - a good B550 motherboard will be a heck of a lot cheaper and you would never notice the difference. 
    Isn't the x570 the newer technology tough? Since there's the AM4 now with amd.
    ???

    AM4 is the name for AMD's CPU socket. AMD has used it for their Ryzen desktop CPUs since they launched Ryzen.


    Do you maybe mean PCIe 4 instead of AM4?

    PCIe 4 gives faster data transfer than PCIe 3 and it's newer tech, but with it the question is whether you actually need that much data transfer speed. The only thing (for normal user) that needs that much speed is fastest NVMe drives - that is if you want to have faster than 3 940 MB/s read speeds. If you want a NVMe drive faster than that then PCIe 3 isn't enough. Also top-end GPUs gain slight benefit from PCIe 4, but if I remember correctly when using RTX 3080 TI the speed advantage from PCI 4 was between 0 - 5% extra FPS so it's not large. So even the top-end GPUs don't really need it. The only thing that really needs PCIe 4 is fastest NVMe drives.

    For your average gaming computer a B550 motherboard gives you PCIe 4 for both storage and GPU and it's just as good as X570 motherboard. The X570 offers better support for stuff like dual GPUs, more fast NVMe drives at once, more USB 3.2 ports, etc. But for normal gaming computer those aren't that important. If you get a B450 or X470 motherboard those don't support PCIe 4, but even those are still ok motherboards as long as you aren't trying to assemble top-end computer.

    EDIT: I wouldn't really recommend getting a B450 or X470 motherboard even though those are still ok. But for most gaming computers I'd recommend B550 motherboard instead of X570, because as long as you don't need any of X570's extra features B550 is just as good and cheaper.
    BloodaxesRidelynn
     
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    edited August 2021
    My bad then, I was researching about motherboards and was reading about there being a new technology in the coming year for amd boards. I thought the X series had the newer technology. You might be right, I firmly remembered the number 4, it must be because of the PCIe4 not AM4 haha.

    Was looking through Asm0deus screenshot above, and assumed the X series is the go to for future builds.

  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,422
    One think I forgot to mention about those motherboards: Only some B450 and X470 motherboards support Ryzen 5000 CPUs.

    I don't recommend any of the B450 / X470 motherboards. Just thought this was an important thing to add since I forgot it from my last post.
    Ridelynn
     
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,356
    edited August 2021
    Bloodaxes said:

    Was looking through Asm0deus screenshot above, and assumed the X series is the go to for future builds.
    That is exactly what AMD and motherboard manufacturers want you to assume. But it isn't the case.

    X is the "enthusiast" lineup, B is the "mainstream" lineup. There is also an A lineup, which is more for OEMs to build pre-built office-type computers with; you won't find many third party motherboards offering them.

    AMD was pretty reasonable with the B lineup, and didn't lock a lot of features behind the higher priced X lineup. They still allow for overclocking on the B chipset, they still have a pretty generous PCI 4 allocation on the B lineup, and you aren't missing on anything important by getting a B chipset rather than an X.

    So long as you get a decent B550 model, it will still have decent power delivery and build quality and more than capable as a gaming machine -- there are some models out there that are "budget" and may be pushing the limits as to what they should be doing, but most of the big name brands avoid most of that.

    X models will tend to have higher-end features, such as optional water cooling on the motherboard, much beefier and better power delivery to support bigger overclocks, more on-board diagnostics, and higher end audio, networking, RAID support, and other various peripheral functions. Nice stuff, but hardly essential stuff.

    For most gamers, the differences between the X and B lineup on the current generation (X570 / B550) are pretty small. This is also likely the be either the last, or next to last generation to be on the AM4 chipset. DDR5 and PCI 5.0 are both coming down the road, AMD will likely break backwards compatibility and move forward to a new socket. If that occurs with Xen 4 or not I don't know, but it's coming "soon".

    That said, I wouldn't hold off on buying a new computer waiting on that - "soon" could be 3-4 years down the road, and you will get plenty of life out of any computer built with current-generation parts in 2021.
    Bloodaxes
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