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Opinion: Sometimes The 'Massively Multiplayer' Can Get In The Way Of The RPG | MMORPG.com

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  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 636
    I spoke generally, on a macro level earlier. Now, I will speak on a micro level, concerning ESO specifically:

    This issue isn't new in ESO. The fact that it took so long for the OP to notice it is telling in itself. Ok, maybe it's me and the heavy influence of SWTOR on me, but my immersion was shattered the moment I saw how dialogues were handled. They aren't mini instances like in SWTOR, no. An NPC tries to tell you some drama only for a person to literally bunnyhop(or talk to the same NPC at the same time) behind it.

    That HUGE issue, as well as quite...eccentric way the combat is handled always ruined ESO for me. ESO is probably the most obvious example of "skip quest text" because no matter how hard you try, something is going to shatter your immersion. So, why bother?

    And while there are larger issues at play as I noted in my earlier post, this specific phenomenon is 100% design fail. If you want to create an illusion of choice or illusion of impact, use tools at your disposal: phasing(to allow world changes), instancing(to reinforce immersion) etc. ESO is NOTORIOUSLY BAD at this, sadly. Quite a good game otherwise.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,568
    edited June 9
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    Exactly ESO just does it badly. Everquest 2 has a fantastic story and lore and quests with huge stories than span over several zones. Quests that takes a lot of levels to progress and it works. The stories are both interesting and fun. I did some of the quests just to see how the story was going and the dialogue and story were interesting enough that I read everything and did it all over again years later with the same interest.

    I loved FFXIV for the well written and great story and so did many others. It is a success in that department.

    It is not a mistake at all in fact it makes the world I am in far more engaging and meaningful and lends gravitas to my presence.

    Bethesda just choose the wrong way to deliver their story in an MMORPG. Years later I still remember how I did the whole sleeping druids story in WoW and this was when I first started playing and how much the stories and lore in Teldrassil affected my decision to play a Night Elf.
    GorweScot

  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 3,414
    Viper482 said:
    The problem here is ESO is a single player RPG pretending to be an MMORPG. It has nothing to do with the genre and everything to do with execution.

    My fiance and I play through this "single player RPG" together all the time, each having our own character dedicated to this purpose. The same could be done easily with a static group of players as a persistent party.

    So, while the story may assume a single player, it is by no means a single player RPG, but a MMORPG that can be played as such by anyone that doesn't wish to play alone.
    Just because you can play with other people doesn't make it an MMORPG. You are essentially saying because you can play with your wife it is an MMORPG.....that is called co-op. There are literally dozens of games you can play with someone else, that just makes them multiplayer. ESO is a single player game wrapped in an MMORPG costume. 
    Gdemami
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 3,414
    edited June 9
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?

    Just because ESO is a popular game doesn't make it a good MMORPG design. WoW and FFXIV are much better at incorporating "your story" into their game than ESO's sloppy approach. 

    No one is telling you to not like the game, just asking for some objectivity. I've played ESO since its release, but I know what it is.
    Gdemami
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • corrosivechainscorrosivechains Member UncommonPosts: 19
    Weird take to have for an always online single player RPG.

    Real Talk here, if you don't want to play an MMO there are plenty of single player games to fill your niche. This seems to be the only genre in the history of gaming where people can complain away everything that made MMO's what they were and still continue to bitch about it, then wonder why the genre is so stagnant. Imagine going onto the Super Mario forums or reddit and demanding the game be a massive multiplayer affair? You'd be laughed at and mocked because that's not what Super Mario is.

    Listening to "hot takes" like this article is exactly why MMORPG's are absolute shit now.
    Gdemami
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Viper482 said:
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?

    Just because ESO is a popular game doesn't make it a good MMORPG design. WoW and FFXIV are much better at incorporating "your story" into their game than ESO's sloppy approach. 

    No one is telling you to not like the game, just asking for some objectivity. I've played ESO since its release, but I know what it is.

    Yeah, I've played them all and none of them are about your own character's story, but a story your character plays through. Such is inescapable in story-led MMORPGs. The only difference is that ESO allows one to break from the overall linearity of the story by allowing players to play it in the order preferred.

    Only player led games allow you to tell your own story, as it is only in them that players can impact the world around them such that a new story can be made.

    I play ESO too, and know what it is. So, whatever.
    tzervo
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Weird take to have for an always online single player RPG.

    Real Talk here, if you don't want to play an MMO there are plenty of single player games to fill your niche. This seems to be the only genre in the history of gaming where people can complain away everything that made MMO's what they were and still continue to bitch about it, then wonder why the genre is so stagnant. Imagine going onto the Super Mario forums or reddit and demanding the game be a massive multiplayer affair? You'd be laughed at and mocked because that's not what Super Mario is.

    Listening to "hot takes" like this article is exactly why MMORPG's are absolute shit now.

    ESO is not a single player game. It's a MMORPG. The only thing weird is people trying to claim it is other than it is. There are plenty of solo Elder Scrolls games for those that want that. ESO doesn't provide that experience nor should it be expected to.

    As for real talk, people can and will play whatever they want, and need not adjust to whatever pigeon hole another wishes to shove them into.

    Mario games are whatever Nintendo wants them to be. Platform, racing, tennis, golf, console RPG, and so on. If they were inclined they could easily make a MMORPG in that universe and plenty of players would be all over it.
    tzervocorrosivechains
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,291
    edited June 9
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    I think "mistake" is the wrong word here, even though my preferences align with Cameltosis's.

    Personally I find that stories offer nothing to MMORPG's. You can get the enjoyment of better-quality stories from other genres, and story driven designs do not play into the strengths of MMORPG's, which are virtual worlds with many other players and their interactions, and player driven content, something that no other genre can provide.

    But that's exactly what it is: a preference. Market has proved that the majority of players want a story to drive their progression and put them in the mood, and a world that provides the convenience of solo gameplay with the social ambience of other players, alongside group content (instanced or otherwise).
    Sovrath
  • XatshXatsh Member RarePosts: 442
    People put way to much focus on story in mmos. It is one of the least important factors. A 1 and done thing in a game that is suppost to be endless.

    Too many mmos are becoming solo focused or co-op which is NOT what a mmo is about.

    A mmorpg is a mmo first then a rpg. The group, community, the massivly multiplayer are what defines the genre and makes it different then a plan multiplayer game. If it is not the first and foremost thing you are not playing a true mmo. And if you prefer solo/duo/trio focused story driven "mmos" then guess what you do not like playing mmos. And no ffxiv is not a good mmo. Really great game but the mmo elements are trash. Eso is not any better. Again good game shit mmo.


    tzervoGdemamicorrosivechains
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,894
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    A profitable idea or venture isn't necessarily a good one.


    GdemamiMendelcorrosivechains

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 636
    kitarad said:
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    Exactly ESO just does it badly. Everquest 2 has a fantastic story and lore and quests with huge stories than span over several zones. Quests that takes a lot of levels to progress and it works. The stories are both interesting and fun. I did some of the quests just to see how the story was going and the dialogue and story were interesting enough that I read everything and did it all over again years later with the same interest.

    I loved FFXIV for the well written and great story and so did many others. It is a success in that department.

    It is not a mistake at all in fact it makes the world I am in far more engaging and meaningful and lends gravitas to my presence.

    Bethesda just choose the wrong way to deliver their story in an MMORPG. Years later I still remember how I did the whole sleeping druids story in WoW and this was when I first started playing and how much the stories and lore in Teldrassil affected my decision to play a Night Elf.

    Exactly so. While there might be a lot misaligned systems, that also happens in singleplayers. Ever wished for a Fireball before you got it in an isoRPG? Or more Fireballs for that matter. That's this misalignment at work.

    But yeah, it is 100% an ESO issue.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,274
    "This is really nothing new, either. ESO, like many other MMOs nowadays, are leaning into solo play more and more in this world of MMOs."

    This problem comes in two parts, how much MMOs have already been turned into a solo only experience and how much more they will be changed. There is no end in sight to this solo journey, it would take something quite radical to even slow the journey down.
    KyleranGdemamicorrosivechains
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,998
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?

    I wouldn't call WoW or FFXIV "story-led". They both have stories, sure, but the story never felt like the primary purpose of the games. I'm not sure about ESO, obviously it has stories in them but I don't know whether the game is story-led.


    But, the specific problems as I see them:


    1) The stories are virtually always generic or low quality
    This is by far my biggest problem. I read a lot of books, and watch a reasonable amount of TV, and the stories in games just don't even come close. Like, not even remotely close. Books, films and TV have all given me joy, connected me with the characters, and some have brought me to tears. That's never happened to me with a game. Ever. Because the stories are bad. The underlying plot may be OK, but the writing and the delivery are always shit.

    There are very valid reasons why this is the case. The primary reason is that most games don't hire professional authors. The writing is done in-house by amateaurs. Do you really expect a 25 year old geek to be able to write a compelling story? Most can't, hence low quality stories in games. Another reason is that the theme of the story needs to be backed up by the themes in the gameplay, but nearly all RPGs are about acquiring power and then exercising that power to get your own way. Thats a very primative lesson to be teaching and results in primative stories being told.



    2) Telling a story requires control, but I am outside of their control.
    When you read a book, 100% of the story comes from the author. When you watch a film, 100% of the story comes out at you from the TV. Everything is controlled, curated, edited, in order to provide you with a story.

    In a game, the player is outside of the devs control. They cannot predict how I'll act, they cannot control it. As a result, the story is usually at odds with my actions, leaving it incoherant. A princess may call me kind and brave, after I've just slaughtered 100 deers. My companion may complain about a long, hard journey, except I just swift travelled so it was a piece of piss.

    This problem is then amplified in a multiplayer setting, as not only do my actions contradict the story, but so do the actions of everyone around me.



    3) Reducing player freedom to gain control make it a lesser game
    To try to gain coherance in the story, devs can reduce player freedom to help ensure the story sounds good. But, the more freedoms you remove from the player, the less of a game it is. If you keep going down this route, you end up no longer being a game, but more of an interactive film.

    A lot of the modern Final Fantasy games went this route. From about FF10 onwards, you're only actually playing the game for 50% of the time, the other 50% you're just watching cutscenes or reading dialogue. How shit! It makes the story better, but it's only half a game....



    4) Stories End
    This is a big problem for MMORPGs. Stories end. When they end, many players quit. This puts enormous pressure on the devs to keep churning out new story, and they just can't do it. Not even Blizzard managed to achieve a content schedule that kept up with demand, so there is no chance a smaller studio can manage it.

    As pressure increases and budget decreases, the quality of the story drops even further.






    With all that said, I do understand why stories are included. There is a section of the gaming community that can't live without it, they need a story to hook them in, provide context to their actions and keep them playing.

    I'm just saying it would be better, especially for MMORPGs, if they ditched the story and instead focused on systems and gameplay. Instead of telling a story, let us create a story with our friends using the systems provided to us.
    tzervoGorweGdemamiCryomatrixcorrosivechainsScot
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 636
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?

    I wouldn't call WoW or FFXIV "story-led". They both have stories, sure, but the story never felt like the primary purpose of the games. I'm not sure about ESO, obviously it has stories in them but I don't know whether the game is story-led.


    But, the specific problems as I see them:


    1) The stories are virtually always generic or low quality
    This is by far my biggest problem. I read a lot of books, and watch a reasonable amount of TV, and the stories in games just don't even come close. Like, not even remotely close. Books, films and TV have all given me joy, connected me with the characters, and some have brought me to tears. That's never happened to me with a game. Ever. Because the stories are bad. The underlying plot may be OK, but the writing and the delivery are always shit.

    There are very valid reasons why this is the case. The primary reason is that most games don't hire professional authors. The writing is done in-house by amateaurs. Do you really expect a 25 year old geek to be able to write a compelling story? Most can't, hence low quality stories in games. Another reason is that the theme of the story needs to be backed up by the themes in the gameplay, but nearly all RPGs are about acquiring power and then exercising that power to get your own way. Thats a very primative lesson to be teaching and results in primative stories being told.



    2) Telling a story requires control, but I am outside of their control.
    When you read a book, 100% of the story comes from the author. When you watch a film, 100% of the story comes out at you from the TV. Everything is controlled, curated, edited, in order to provide you with a story.

    In a game, the player is outside of the devs control. They cannot predict how I'll act, they cannot control it. As a result, the story is usually at odds with my actions, leaving it incoherant. A princess may call me kind and brave, after I've just slaughtered 100 deers. My companion may complain about a long, hard journey, except I just swift travelled so it was a piece of piss.

    This problem is then amplified in a multiplayer setting, as not only do my actions contradict the story, but so do the actions of everyone around me.



    3) Reducing player freedom to gain control make it a lesser game
    To try to gain coherance in the story, devs can reduce player freedom to help ensure the story sounds good. But, the more freedoms you remove from the player, the less of a game it is. If you keep going down this route, you end up no longer being a game, but more of an interactive film.

    A lot of the modern Final Fantasy games went this route. From about FF10 onwards, you're only actually playing the game for 50% of the time, the other 50% you're just watching cutscenes or reading dialogue. How shit! It makes the story better, but it's only half a game....



    4) Stories End
    This is a big problem for MMORPGs. Stories end. When they end, many players quit. This puts enormous pressure on the devs to keep churning out new story, and they just can't do it. Not even Blizzard managed to achieve a content schedule that kept up with demand, so there is no chance a smaller studio can manage it.

    As pressure increases and budget decreases, the quality of the story drops even further.






    With all that said, I do understand why stories are included. There is a section of the gaming community that can't live without it, they need a story to hook them in, provide context to their actions and keep them playing.

    I'm just saying it would be better, especially for MMORPGs, if they ditched the story and instead focused on systems and gameplay. Instead of telling a story, let us create a story with our friends using the systems provided to us.

    1. A lot of things are quite clearly low quality(also depends on definition, but I'll let it slide), but also fun. Commando or the like come to mind. Besides, enjoyment is personal. I've enjoyed quite a lot of stories. SWTOR(in general, but especially Smuggler or BH), LoTR:O, some WAR Epics, Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo 1 + 2 etc etc. I don't expect Shakespeare or Hemingway, rather a simple, fun, easy to immerse experience.

    2. Indeed, this is why finely curated story experiences like SWTOR(needs more phasing and influencing environment tbh) work and others like ESO don't.

    3. Indeed, this feels like a desperate move.

    4. I don't see why stories ending have to mean the game ends. I can speak from my Dragon Age: Origins experience, while I like leveling and such, once the story ends, the game ends. Rip wtf. And I was just beginning to enjoy my ridiculous level of power. I always wanted to be able to play such characters freeform. To just grind mobs if need be.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,542
    Kyleran said:
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    A profitable idea or venture isn't necessarily a good one.



    Pepsi and Coca-Cola are very good investments, making huge annual profits.  Yet, find me a dentist that says these products are good for your teeth.  Or a doctor in favor of a 3 Mountain Dew a day diet for health purposes.



    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,894
    Mendel said:
    Kyleran said:
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    A profitable idea or venture isn't necessarily a good one.



    Pepsi and Coca-Cola are very good investments, making huge annual profits.  Yet, find me a dentist that says these products are good for your teeth.  Or a doctor in favor of a 3 Mountain Dew a day diet for health purposes.



    In gaming terms there's loot boxes, gacha, and of course the ever popular F2P.

    Of course, 



    Cheers

    Gdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    tzervo said:
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    I think "mistake" is the wrong word here, even though my preferences align with Cameltosis's.


    Yes, mistake is the wrong word, seeing as the strongest MMORPGs in terms of success are predominantly story-led.
    Kylerantzervo
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,998
    tzervo said:
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    I think "mistake" is the wrong word here, even though my preferences align with Cameltosis's.


    Yes, mistake is the wrong word, seeing as the strongest MMORPGs in terms of success are predominantly story-led.

    I don't think many of them are story-led.


    Story-led is what CD Projekt Red does. They come up with the story first, then design the game around that story. The mechanics are all in support of the story, which is why the mechanics are usually not that great in a story-led game.



    SW:TOR is story-led. Bioware said they had the stories first and then designed the game around it. But even then, it's only the class stories that players liked, all the other stories were written off as generic bloat. It always confused me that the most praised patch in SWTORs history was the one that made 99% of the game irrelevant!



    WoW, FFXIV, ESO, LotRO etc. Those were all about building a world for us to live in. The stories are mostly small, self-contained stories that are there to guide the players towards the gameplay. The main difference between being gameplay-driven or story-driven is how well all the mechanics fit together.

    A game like LotRO (just because i know it the best) had a ton of different types of mechanics and gameplay loops, but they melded together pretty well, they complimented each other and worked towards building an online community. Im told WoW was the same way.




    So, yeh, mistake may have been a bad choice of words, but I firmly believe that if you design and build a game based around gameplay, and not story, you will end up with a vastly superior game that appeals to more people and has better retention.
    KylerancorrosivechainsGdemami
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?

    I wouldn't call WoW or FFXIV "story-led". They both have stories, sure, but the story never felt like the primary purpose of the games. I'm not sure about ESO, obviously it has stories in them but I don't know whether the game is story-led.

    The primary purpose of games is to have fun. Stories are part of that fun for those that prefer having them.

    WoW and FFXIV are story-led because everything that happens in them is driven by the story presented to the players. The players can't change that narrative. All they can do is follow the stories lead. ESO is exactly the same, other than you are freed from the overall linearity of having to play through them in a set order.

    Contrast that with a game with little in the way of story dragging the players along by the nose , where player action and interaction essentially create the stories of the game and can have a huge and lasting impact on the game world overall. With EVE, for example, one is just as likely to hear about player actions and their potential ramifications within the game as news about what the developer is up to.
    tzervo
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Kyleran said:
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    A profitable idea or venture isn't necessarily a good one.



    In business, which is what MMORPGs are, profitable ideas and ventures are the only good ones. Others are only considered good by government and charities.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,894
    Kyleran said:
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    A profitable idea or venture isn't necessarily a good one.



    In business, which is what MMORPGs are, profitable ideas and ventures are the only good ones. Others are only considered good by government and charities.
    You aren't wrong, but I wish it wasn't true then I might actually have more games that I really like.


    Gdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    edited June 10
    Viper482 said:
    Viper482 said:
    The problem here is ESO is a single player RPG pretending to be an MMORPG. It has nothing to do with the genre and everything to do with execution.

    My fiance and I play through this "single player RPG" together all the time, each having our own character dedicated to this purpose. The same could be done easily with a static group of players as a persistent party.

    So, while the story may assume a single player, it is by no means a single player RPG, but a MMORPG that can be played as such by anyone that doesn't wish to play alone.
    Just because you can play with other people doesn't make it an MMORPG. You are essentially saying because you can play with your wife it is an MMORPG.....that is called co-op. There are literally dozens of games you can play with someone else, that just makes them multiplayer. ESO is a single player game wrapped in an MMORPG costume. 

    Oh yes, because only speaking of my fiance and I playing together means the ESO group size is limited to two, and it is thus only a co-op game.

    In fact overland groups have a limit of 24, trial groups 12, and instanced dungeons 4. Anything that allows groups of up to 24 players isn't a single player game.
    tzervo
  • corrosivechainscorrosivechains Member UncommonPosts: 19
    Weird take to have for an always online single player RPG.

    Real Talk here, if you don't want to play an MMO there are plenty of single player games to fill your niche. This seems to be the only genre in the history of gaming where people can complain away everything that made MMO's what they were and still continue to bitch about it, then wonder why the genre is so stagnant. Imagine going onto the Super Mario forums or reddit and demanding the game be a massive multiplayer affair? You'd be laughed at and mocked because that's not what Super Mario is.

    Listening to "hot takes" like this article is exactly why MMORPG's are absolute shit now.

    ESO is not a single player game. It's a MMORPG. The only thing weird is people trying to claim it is other than it is. There are plenty of solo Elder Scrolls games for those that want that. ESO doesn't provide that experience nor should it be expected to.

    As for real talk, people can and will play whatever they want, and need not adjust to whatever pigeon hole another wishes to shove them into.

    Mario games are whatever Nintendo wants them to be. Platform, racing, tennis, golf, console RPG, and so on. If they were inclined they could easily make a MMORPG in that universe and plenty of players would be all over it.
    You can put a pig in a dress, but it's still a pig.

    You can solo everything in the game, especially now with companions, which makes it a single player game.  An always online single player game you can be banned from at any time, which has been the dream of big publishers for several decades now, and the opinion you expressed just allows them to continue with their anti-consumer practices.

    You are free to have this very wrong opinion, but if you and others have and express as much, don't keep being surprised with every flop in the genre.  It's axiomatic.
    Gdemami
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    So, designing an MMORPG around a story is a huge mistake.

    There are some pretty profitable huge mistakes in the MMORPG genre then.

    WoW, FFXIV, and ESO all seem to be doing alright.

    So, what's the actual problem with their story-led approach?
    A profitable idea or venture isn't necessarily a good one.



    In business, which is what MMORPGs are, profitable ideas and ventures are the only good ones. Others are only considered good by government and charities.
    You aren't wrong, but I wish it wasn't true then I might actually have more games that I really like.



    The closest to that would be games from small, independent developers where there is little to no divide between the creator of the game and those making the business decisions for it. They are less likely to look at the game solely as a means to profit, so more open to ideas based on merit alone.
    Kyleran
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Weird take to have for an always online single player RPG.

    Real Talk here, if you don't want to play an MMO there are plenty of single player games to fill your niche. This seems to be the only genre in the history of gaming where people can complain away everything that made MMO's what they were and still continue to bitch about it, then wonder why the genre is so stagnant. Imagine going onto the Super Mario forums or reddit and demanding the game be a massive multiplayer affair? You'd be laughed at and mocked because that's not what Super Mario is.

    Listening to "hot takes" like this article is exactly why MMORPG's are absolute shit now.

    ESO is not a single player game. It's a MMORPG. The only thing weird is people trying to claim it is other than it is. There are plenty of solo Elder Scrolls games for those that want that. ESO doesn't provide that experience nor should it be expected to.

    As for real talk, people can and will play whatever they want, and need not adjust to whatever pigeon hole another wishes to shove them into.

    Mario games are whatever Nintendo wants them to be. Platform, racing, tennis, golf, console RPG, and so on. If they were inclined they could easily make a MMORPG in that universe and plenty of players would be all over it.
    You can put a pig in a dress, but it's still a pig.

    You can solo everything in the game, especially now with companions, which makes it a single player game.  An always online single player game you can be banned from at any time, which has been the dream of big publishers for several decades now, and the opinion you expressed just allows them to continue with their anti-consumer practices.

    You are free to have this very wrong opinion, but if you and others have and express as much, don't keep being surprised with every flop in the genre.  It's axiomatic.

    Yes, one can, as is aptly demonstrated  by the arguments that ESO isn't a MMORPG that fail each time a new outfit is applied.

    Your claim is the typical solo player waltzes through 12 player trials with ease, and conquers the entirety of Cyrodill and the Imperial City single-handed because it's just that easy, and now with companions it will be even more so. Those are all a part of the "single player" game after all.

    My counter argument to yours is.. Rubbish.

    ESO is just as much a MMORPG as any of the others of like nature, with your counter argument of "no it's not" coming with absolutely nothing to support your position or counter mine which is somewhat more detailed than "yes it is."
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