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Camelot Unchained's Mark Jacobs Talks Delays, Refunds and Rival Game AoC During Q&A Stream | MMORPG.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,890
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    I still say, all these games could learn a lot from Crowfall.

    Put out an Alpha, place holders, missing classes, missing races, not all the loot/gear/stuff is there, missing combat animations.. just out something playable, so players can see what you have.

    And While, I realize that Crowfall will not be the game for me, I am glad I spent the money supporting it, I played it, I watched it evolve, and I will defend it's validity as an MMO, fearlessly, because, I can log in and play.. right now, today.

    If other MMO's did the same, we would not be having these discussions.
    Still not released yet, still not past it's final wipe, long after any promises it would be, so still an indefensible fail to date.


    It's also morphed into a 12 team MOBA as the recent focus.  But hey I think they gave away 50k for their Esport tourney.  I guess that's what some people want.

    Kyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    I still say, all these games could learn a lot from Crowfall.

    Put out an Alpha, place holders, missing classes, missing races, not all the loot/gear/stuff is there, missing combat animations.. just out something playable, so players can see what you have.

    And While, I realize that Crowfall will not be the game for me, I am glad I spent the money supporting it, I played it, I watched it evolve, and I will defend it's validity as an MMO, fearlessly, because, I can log in and play.. right now, today.

    If other MMO's did the same, we would not be having these discussions.
    Still not released yet, still not past it's final wipe, long after any promises it would be, so still an indefensible fail to date.
    Still a million miles ahead of everyone else saying "We are working on it

    The reality is, If you buy it today, you can log in and play, today, which counts as an absolute win in my book.



    As far as I care, they could say Launched today, and be done with it. AFIK, They have opted to make some changes and revamp things mainly due to player feedback, not because they are dragging their feet and can't finish it.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • flynn444flynn444 Member UncommonPosts: 57
    Did someone accidentally post a screenshot from EverQuest?
    Wargfoot
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,520
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    I still say, all these games could learn a lot from Crowfall.

    Put out an Alpha, place holders, missing classes, missing races, not all the loot/gear/stuff is there, missing combat animations.. just out something playable, so players can see what you have.

    And While, I realize that Crowfall will not be the game for me, I am glad I spent the money supporting it, I played it, I watched it evolve, and I will defend it's validity as an MMO, fearlessly, because, I can log in and play.. right now, today.

    If other MMO's did the same, we would not be having these discussions.
    Still not released yet, still not past it's final wipe, long after any promises it would be, so still an indefensible fail to date.
    Still a million miles ahead of everyone else saying "We are working on it

    The reality is, If you buy it today, you can log in and play, today, which counts as an absolute win in my book.



    As far as I care, they could say Launched today, and be done with it. AFIK, They have opted to make some changes and revamp things mainly due to player feedback, not because they are dragging their feet and can't finish it.
    So the game they built wasn't really all that fun then.

    Changing designs based on player feedback, a proven path to gaming success for sure.

    ;)


    YashaXUngoodGdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    I still say, all these games could learn a lot from Crowfall.

    Put out an Alpha, place holders, missing classes, missing races, not all the loot/gear/stuff is there, missing combat animations.. just out something playable, so players can see what you have.

    And While, I realize that Crowfall will not be the game for me, I am glad I spent the money supporting it, I played it, I watched it evolve, and I will defend it's validity as an MMO, fearlessly, because, I can log in and play.. right now, today.

    If other MMO's did the same, we would not be having these discussions.
    Still not released yet, still not past it's final wipe, long after any promises it would be, so still an indefensible fail to date.
    Still a million miles ahead of everyone else saying "We are working on it

    The reality is, If you buy it today, you can log in and play, today, which counts as an absolute win in my book.



    As far as I care, they could say Launched today, and be done with it. AFIK, They have opted to make some changes and revamp things mainly due to player feedback, not because they are dragging their feet and can't finish it.
    So the game they built wasn't really all that fun then.

    Changing designs based on player feedback, a proven path to gaming success for sure.

    ;)


    Yeah I gotta say that what Ungood thinks is good about CF's development process is the exact thing they got wrong imo. CF is in a near launch state not because of the constant player access to the game but in spite of it.

    I think it would have been much better if the developers had a strong vision for the game and stuck with it, not constantly changes things around based on the desires of a few fickle gamers.
    Slapshot1188Gdemami
    ....
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,890
    YashaX said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    I still say, all these games could learn a lot from Crowfall.

    Put out an Alpha, place holders, missing classes, missing races, not all the loot/gear/stuff is there, missing combat animations.. just out something playable, so players can see what you have.

    And While, I realize that Crowfall will not be the game for me, I am glad I spent the money supporting it, I played it, I watched it evolve, and I will defend it's validity as an MMO, fearlessly, because, I can log in and play.. right now, today.

    If other MMO's did the same, we would not be having these discussions.
    Still not released yet, still not past it's final wipe, long after any promises it would be, so still an indefensible fail to date.
    Still a million miles ahead of everyone else saying "We are working on it

    The reality is, If you buy it today, you can log in and play, today, which counts as an absolute win in my book.



    As far as I care, they could say Launched today, and be done with it. AFIK, They have opted to make some changes and revamp things mainly due to player feedback, not because they are dragging their feet and can't finish it.
    So the game they built wasn't really all that fun then.

    Changing designs based on player feedback, a proven path to gaming success for sure.

    ;)


    Yeah I gotta say that what Ungood thinks is good about CF's development process is the exact thing they got wrong imo. CF is in a near launch state not because of the constant player access to the game but in spite of it.

    I think it would have been much better if the developers had a strong vision for the game and stuck with it, not constantly changes things around based on the desires of a few fickle gamers.
    I agree, but I also think they had an ulterior motive.  Turns out that the "Throne War Simulator" mmo engine struggles with large group combat.  So there are a few dozen hardcore people that post about wanting balance and group vs group combat.  Artcraft takes that and pushes it as "giving the players what they want"...

    Gdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    I still say, all these games could learn a lot from Crowfall.

    Put out an Alpha, place holders, missing classes, missing races, not all the loot/gear/stuff is there, missing combat animations.. just out something playable, so players can see what you have.

    And While, I realize that Crowfall will not be the game for me, I am glad I spent the money supporting it, I played it, I watched it evolve, and I will defend it's validity as an MMO, fearlessly, because, I can log in and play.. right now, today.

    If other MMO's did the same, we would not be having these discussions.
    Still not released yet, still not past it's final wipe, long after any promises it would be, so still an indefensible fail to date.
    Still a million miles ahead of everyone else saying "We are working on it

    The reality is, If you buy it today, you can log in and play, today, which counts as an absolute win in my book.



    As far as I care, they could say Launched today, and be done with it. AFIK, They have opted to make some changes and revamp things mainly due to player feedback, not because they are dragging their feet and can't finish it.
    So the game they built wasn't really all that fun then.

    Changing designs based on player feedback, a proven path to gaming success for sure.

    ;)


    NGL, it was not the right game for me. I loved the graphics, and all that, and it had a lot of fun features, but, to be honest, Realms vs Realms battles, have kinda grown stale to me. For the players that like that, I am sure Crowfall remains great fun. One of the Discord Channels I am in, they are still very active and play, and love it. So.. to each their own on that one.

    AFIK, Some of the suggestions were not so much about fun, as they were about fairness and balance, which is a huge issue for modern PvP games. Sure there are some that dream fondly back to the days of DAOC where balance simply did not exist on any level, but those days, like those games, are dinosaurs of a bygone era, and modern gamers like PvP games to be fairly balanced. From what I know, some of the backers (Like myself) made a note that the way they did offline-training and such, was set up in a way where new players would have a hard time being competitive against older players, simply because everything was time gated, which, while is advantageous for early backers, it is not good for a PvP game, or any game that will need to get new players in, to replenish those that leave.

    So, in some cases their suggestion where in a way, seeking to make the game more welcoming to late adopters, which was a a good show for the community to forsake their own advancement for the sake of fairness.

    Again, to each their own, and while Crowfall might not be the game for me. it is a very viable product, and a win as far as Indy and KS games go.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited May 2021
    I think the "we want to go with crowdfunding so we can make the game we want" excuse is starting to wear thin, given that most them end up failing and if they some how don't fail, they end up being monetized akin to AAA companies. It would be nice if the impossible happened of people not backing mmos from here on out and let these hacks have to get a loan or something therefore they are forced to be held accountable and restore some form of integrity to the mmo genre.
    BruceYeeGdemami
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,565
    Albatroes said:
    I think the "we want to go with crowdfunding so we can make the game we want" excuse is starting to wear thin, given that most them end up failing and if they some how don't fail, they end up being monetized akin to AAA companies. It would be nice if the impossible happened of people not backing mmos from here on out and let these hacks have to get a loan or something therefore they are forced to be held accountable and restore some form of integrity to the mmo genre.
    Restoring integrity oh I think that's one genie that is not going back in the bottle.
    Albatroes

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    On the refund idea i think this says he Mark is too lazy to do refunds because it is not something he values so he wants to get a secretary to handle it within the offices.Having said that he could get a secretary to handle it from home,you don't need the office to do your work.
    The only benefit the office has it to make it easier to communicate amongst each other and visually see the work but for doing refunds that is a NON factor so imo Mark is just making excuses.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,520
    edited May 2021
    Wizardry said:
    On the refund idea i think this says he Mark is too lazy to do refunds because it is not something he values so he wants to get a secretary to handle it within the offices.Having said that he could get a secretary to handle it from home,you don't need the office to do your work.
    The only benefit the office has it to make it easier to communicate amongst each other and visually see the work but for doing refunds that is a NON factor so imo Mark is just making excuses.
    The "official" excuses include:
    1. In order to quickly meet GDPR privacy / security requirements all customer PI data was stored on a single,  non-networked computer in the office. He was unwilling to relocate the computer to his home.
    2. The only person with authority to sign-off on refunds is Mark himself.
    3. Due to COVID-19 Mark ceased going into the office initially, eventually returning only on some Sundays when he worked on refunds on a very casual basis.
    4. Process to issue refunds is somewhat time consuming as Mark must double check to ensure they are legit as there has been issues with fraudulent requests.
    5. Latest delay partially attributed to death of a family member

    Will be returning to the office in June which he mentioned should allow him to close out refunds once and for all.



    Ungood

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,520
    tzervo said:
    Noone makes excuses quite like Mark Jacobs.
    Dunno, one of the reasons quoted this time was the death of a family member (his wife's mother). I don't think we should be bashing him for that.
    /shrug. I got 5 days off of work for the death of my parents (Mom when I was only 24) and then went back to it, just what you do in life.

    Tom Brady's father was hospitalized for three weeks at start of last season but the show had to go on....

    Yeah, I know, I'm a jerk...






    GdemamiUngood[Deleted User][Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Kyleran said:
    tzervo said:
    Noone makes excuses quite like Mark Jacobs.
    Dunno, one of the reasons quoted this time was the death of a family member (his wife's mother). I don't think we should be bashing him for that.
    /shrug. I got 5 days off of work for the death of my parents (Mom when I was only 24) and then went back to it, just what you do in life.

    Tom Brady's father was hospitalized for three weeks at start of last season but the show had to go on....

    Yeah, I know, I'm a jerk...






    I am sorry to hear that. I was offered time off to deal with my mothers death, but, as it stood, she was over a thousand miles away, and with Covid Lockdown, there was nothing I could do, so, basically, I just remote contacted people, and didn't even miss a day at work due to her death.
    [Deleted User]
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • szrobiszrobi Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    6 months passed since this and no refunds. you guys posted your previews and reviews ... is it time to tell the people you advertised a scam and ppl will lose their money ... despite the TOC promises refund when requested? what is your responsibility to support a scam like this?
  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,804
    What was wrong with the original DaOC?

    I feel like they could have fixed whatever was wrong with that title much faster than this thing.
    Brainy
  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,804
    One thing developers need to start doing:

    Stop trying to create the Wow killer right out of the gate.  Instead, make a small, single player game and release it to the public and watch it for a year or two while you work on the Wow killer.

    The reasons for this are many:

    1. By creating and releasing an actual product you prove the studio.
    2. Your team gets a chance to learn to work together, you can adjust staff as necessary.
    3. Get a handle on game development from start to  finish.
    4. Build a library of assets for your MMORPG while building the single player game.
    5. Monitor PvE balance, bugs, etc in the single player game where they don't hurt anyone.

    Wrap all that learning up into a MMORPG and make some coin along the way.
    A couple of incremental steps would be good, I think.
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,565
    Wargfoot said:
    One thing developers need to start doing:

    Stop trying to create the Wow killer right out of the gate.  Instead, make a small, single player game and release it to the public and watch it for a year or two while you work on the Wow killer.

    The reasons for this are many:

    1. By creating and releasing an actual product you prove the studio.
    2. Your team gets a chance to learn to work together, you can adjust staff as necessary.
    3. Get a handle on game development from start to  finish.
    4. Build a library of assets for your MMORPG while building the single player game.
    5. Monitor PvE balance, bugs, etc in the single player game where they don't hurt anyone.

    Wrap all that learning up into a MMORPG and make some coin along the way.
    A couple of incremental steps would be good, I think.
    Yeah and then you end up like 38 Studios.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 2,430
    To attract real investors, most startups have to demonstrate that they have a complete vision of their product, they know the cost to make it, they know the schedule to make it, they know the market for it, and they can accurately estimate the return-on-investment.

    Having a track record of success helps a lot. If you've already proven that you can accurately estimate the cost, the schedule, and the return, it is much easier to attract investors.

    Crowd-funding appears to be for the rest. For those who don't have a complete vision of their product, who can't estimate costs, schedule, or return, and who have no track record of meeting their goals before.
    WargfootKyleran

    ------------
    2023: 46 years on the Net.


  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,457
    olepi said:
    To attract real investors, most startups have to demonstrate that they have a complete vision of their product, they know the cost to make it, they know the schedule to make it, they know the market for it, and they can accurately estimate the return-on-investment.

    Having a track record of success helps a lot. If you've already proven that you can accurately estimate the cost, the schedule, and the return, it is much easier to attract investors.

    Crowd-funding appears to be for the rest. For those who don't have a complete vision of their product, who can't estimate costs, schedule, or return, and who have no track record of meeting their goals before.

    I've heard Mark Cuban on Shark Tank say more than once that he avoids video game companies like the plague for the very reasons that you outlined.
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