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The Dreamworld Situation Is Looking Like a Mess | MMORPG.com

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,887
    Gdemami said:
    I do understand.  My point is that many of these guys have built MMORPGs before, and thus should know that.   Or does that only hold true for their second and third games and not for the first one (or second) they already completed from start to finish?

    ...priceless.

    Such simple theorem so far out of your reach.

    Speaks volumes, unsuprisingly.
    Pot meet kettle.  Let me simplify it for you for perhaps I was unclear and I own 50% of that.  

    Shit happens.  Things end up being harder than you thought or at least more complex.  As Rumsfeld once said,  “There are known knowns; these are the things we know we know.  We also know there are unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns- the ones we don’t know we don’t know”

    Now your first time through a massive project you may be unaware of the above.  But the experience you gain should at least make you aware of the possibility that expected and unexpected shit will happen.  

    So when your prior MMORPG project took 6 years to produce and you raise funds saying you can do it in 18 months with a fraction of the budget and staff...  is that incompetence or fraud?  When your peers are all creating projects that are years and years over schedule and multiples over budget, yet you launch one saying  you can make an MMO in 2 years with $500k,  is that incompetence or fraud?  
    Why are the customers blamed for not knowing the project estimates are a joke and the “industry vet” given a pass?

    KyleranGdemami[Deleted User]ScotBrainyYashaX

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Math can be simple,if it takes a 200+ team 5-7 years,how long will it take a 10-30 man team?
    We also should look at WHO is on these teams.If you figure 10 or so people from both sides are just payroll leeches then that leaves the small studio even fewer people to do any work.
    So if the small team is going to match the AAA game it will need 15+ years lmao.By that time the tech is out dated and the game ideas are likely out dated.

    Desperate times bring out desperate people,this is why we see scams like Dreamworld and all these crowdfunded games.Once the idea became reality,that devs could sucker in gamers to give them free money then even the AAA studios started to jump in on it.

    Chris Robert's for example during the debacle on weather he was using the game's funds to pay for his wife's endeavors or not he claimed he didn't even need crowd funded money that he had his own.Well the first question i had immediately was ,well then WHY are you taking ,EXPLOITING money from the gamers?
    Simple,he saw the idea was working for others so why not,if people are that stupid,sure i'll take their money.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited June 2021
    Scot said:
    When you chose to comment so rarely it is rather easy to disparage a posters overall position by picking out something that was not completely thought through.
    ....except that is not the case.

    You are the ones not learning from past mistakes and still posting dumb crap how devs are repeating same mistakes, calling them incompetent or w/e disrespectful.

    See, he still pushes it...third time's the charm, right?

    Bottom line is, you guys have no clue what you talk about - case in point just above. Instead of keeping his mouth shut after embarassing himself so badly, he keeps going. Big mouths, no self-reflection or any decency. It's shameful and sad.


    IselinKyleranalkarionlogAsm0deusYashaX
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,585
    Quizzical said:
    Quizzical said:
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    A Scam is Defined as: "A Dishonest Scheme"

    As such:

    Screwing up.
    Failing.
    Making Mistakes.
    Overestimating your own Competency.

    Are not Scams.

    Now, before you get into what you think a scam is, you do not get to just invent what you want words mean. If you want to call something a scam, that is the definition of the word.

    They said they were going to make a game, and they made something playable.

    TLDR:

    Fucking Up is not a Scam.
    Heh, reminded me of a specific thread where a poster linked a review of himself calling a game that he sunk around 2k hours in "a scam".

    You just need to learn to speak "gamer": scam="fails to meet my expectations", "failed", "late" or just "game pissed me off"
    The defining question to me has always been:  Did the Developers really think they could deliver what they said, with the budget they claimed, and in the time they said?   Or did they lie about 1,2 or all 3 in order to get people to give them money?

    The first is gross incompetence.  The second IMHO is fraud and/or a scam.
    Hofstadter's Law says that it will take longer than you think, even if you account for Hofstadter's Law.  That's very common in computer programming, and worse for large, complicated projects than for small ones.  Ambitious games tend to be very large and complicated.
    Sure.  But some of these guys are industry vets with decades of experience in making MMORPGs...  if you know that...  shouldn’t they know that?
    You don't understand.  It's not that computer programming takes novices longer than they expect and eventually they figure out how to estimate it better.  It's that for complex projects, even once you have a lot of experience and try to build in a lot of room for things to take longer than they should, it will still take longer than your new estimate.

    And even that assumes that you have no mission creep.  Which you probably will, as if you ruthlessly axe all ideas that you come up with after you start work on the game, it's going to be a terrible game.
    I agree that it always takes longer than expected.

    But there's a difference between making a mistake and intentionally giving out estimated budgets and timelines that you know no dev team on Earth could follow. Unfortunately lot of the crowdfunded MMOs tend to do the latter.
    GdemamiSlapshot1188[Deleted User]KyleranScotYashaX
     
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,887
    Gdemami said:
    Scot said:
    When you chose to comment so rarely it is rather easy to disparage a posters overall position by picking out something that was not completely thought through.
    ....except that is not the case.

    You are the ones not learning from past mistakes and still posting dumb crap how devs are repeating same mistakes, calling them incompetent or w/e disrespectful.

    See, he still pushes it...third time's the charm, right?

    Bottom line is, you guys have no clue what you talk about - case in point just above. Instead of keeping his mouth shut after embarassing himself so badly, he keeps going. Just big mouths, no self-reflection or any decency. It's shameful and sad.


    Sure
    KyleranYashaX

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,854
    Wasn't there going to be a big announcement on the the 21st of may?

    or they doing the steve miller take the money and run

    My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022

    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

    Currently Playing; Dragonflight and SWG:L
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,848
    Scot said:
    Gdemami said:
    I do understand.  My point is that many of these guys have built MMORPGs before, and thus should know that.   Or does that only hold true for their second and third games and not for the first one (or second) they already completed from start to finish?

    ...priceless.

    Such simple theorem so far out of your reach.

    Speaks volumes, unsuprisingly.
    When you chose to comment so rarely it is rather easy to disparage a posters overall position by picking out something that was not completely thought through. I take onboard what Quizzical says but we have seen developers not learning from their mistakes, mistakes which they should have caught having already made MMORPG's before. So this is not just about the complexity of making a game no matter what you have achieved before, it is about making poor decisions even when you have a wealth of experience in the industry.
    The developers do very much learn from their mistakes.  On the new game, the unanticipated delays happen for different reasons than on their previous projects.  If all that they proposed was a mediocre knock-off of something that they'd already done, they would know how to set a schedule that they could actually stick to.  But for whatever reasons, "I want to make a mediocre knock-off of a bunch of other games that have already launched" tends not to get funded on kickstarter.
    BabuinixScot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,931
    edited June 2021
    Quizzical said:
    Scot said:
    Gdemami said:
    I do understand.  My point is that many of these guys have built MMORPGs before, and thus should know that.   Or does that only hold true for their second and third games and not for the first one (or second) they already completed from start to finish?

    ...priceless.

    Such simple theorem so far out of your reach.

    Speaks volumes, unsuprisingly.
    When you chose to comment so rarely it is rather easy to disparage a posters overall position by picking out something that was not completely thought through. I take onboard what Quizzical says but we have seen developers not learning from their mistakes, mistakes which they should have caught having already made MMORPG's before. So this is not just about the complexity of making a game no matter what you have achieved before, it is about making poor decisions even when you have a wealth of experience in the industry.
    The developers do very much learn from their mistakes.  On the new game, the unanticipated delays happen for different reasons than on their previous projects.  If all that they proposed was a mediocre knock-off of something that they'd already done, they would know how to set a schedule that they could actually stick to.  But for whatever reasons, "I want to make a mediocre knock-off of a bunch of other games that have already launched" tends not to get funded on kickstarter.
    Drawing from various KS MMOs here: This is not just about delays, it is about what they expected their player base to be like. If you work in this industry you should understand what players are like. So being appalled when they are rude, deciding to issue a statement about that leaves you wondering if they have ever played a MMO or seen one played, let alone developed one. Same goes for later not realising the cut throat nature of a player kingdom game and realising what players are going to do.

    Delays have been caused by deciding to build a different game, going down that route and cancelling the second game or delivering on a subpar hardly played second game while the first languishes. There was even a lot of time given at one stage to a table top board game version. I cannot see how that has anything to do with the complexity of the project.
    Gdemami
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,473
    Trying to classify a scam, fraud, incompetence based on the developers opinion is a bad way of determination.  This might work in "criminal" law, but I rather have a more broad view like in "Civil" law, where its used as any reasonable persons viewpoint.

    Some people are overly optimistic.  To quote Dumb and Dumber, "So you're saying there's a chance"

    So some optimistic dev puts out a project, tells investors all these amazing things it will become for x money.  Privately they think there is a 1% chance they can pull it off.  But they think who knows maybe if it gets enough great press, x money will get them started, then down the line they will get Y more money and might be able to deliver something, and in best case scenario they might be able to pull it off.  In the meantime I will pay myself a good salary, buy myself a bunch of nice stuff, bank some of the money and if it doesn't pan out, no skin off my back because they have nothing invested.

    So is this a scam?  By my definition a reasonable person doesn't think 1% chance of success is reasonable.  So yes this is a scam.  I don't really care what the dev's intention was.  So incompetency, fraud, scam, they basically all = scam to me.  If a reasonable person would have known it would not succeed, AND the dev misrepresented what they could accomplish in any way then scam=yes.

    If the dev tells you upfront there is a small chance of success and lays it all out there, then scam=no.

    I agree its not a precise definition, but its better than giving all these Devs a pass.
    GdemamiScot
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Brainy said:
    Trying to classify a scam, fraud, incompetence based on the developers opinion is a bad way of determination.  This might work in "criminal" law, but I rather have a more broad view like in "Civil" law, where its used as any reasonable persons viewpoint.

    Some people are overly optimistic.  To quote Dumb and Dumber, "So you're saying there's a chance"

    So some optimistic dev puts out a project, tells investors all these amazing things it will become for x money.  Privately they think there is a 1% chance they can pull it off.  But they think who knows maybe if it gets enough great press, x money will get them started, then down the line they will get Y more money and might be able to deliver something, and in best case scenario they might be able to pull it off.  In the meantime I will pay myself a good salary, buy myself a bunch of nice stuff, bank some of the money and if it doesn't pan out, no skin off my back because they have nothing invested.

    So is this a scam?  By my definition a reasonable person doesn't think 1% chance of success is reasonable.  So yes this is a scam.  I don't really care what the dev's intention was.  So incompetency, fraud, scam, they basically all = scam to me.  If a reasonable person would have known it would not succeed, AND the dev misrepresented what they could accomplish in any way then scam=yes.

    If the dev tells you upfront there is a small chance of success and lays it all out there, then scam=no.

    I agree its not a precise definition, but its better than giving all these Devs a pass.
    I work in construction. 

    I love my job, I love what I do, been doing it most of my life, so.. yah.

    But I deal with stupid all the time, from the top to the bottom, I deal with some downright morons. In case anyone who works in retail wonders where all the morons that ask "How many pieces of chicken are in the 8 piece chicken basket" go when they leave with their lunch, yah.. for some reason, they all come though my office at one time or another.

    Now, Is the guy that tells me he has no car, no money, no shoes, no place to live, but promises me they will make it to work reliably every day for the next 6 months of the contract, scamming me. I like to believe that in their own alcohol flooded world of no doubt some non over the counter pain killers, that they really believe they will be able to pull that off, because they need the job. They are not trying to lie to me to, or pull a fast one, but they believe that if they got some money, a job, and all that, they would shape right up and turn their life around. Now, have I seen that happen.. yes. Some of my best workers I ever had the joy to lean on during my hardest times were people that at one time left their application form mostly blank, because outside themselves, they had nothing else, expect a dirty pair of backup under ware.

    Does that mean I trust every brain buzzed vagabond that tells me they can pound a nail, No.. no I do not.

    But a huge part of that is on me, to know what I am seeing and sincerity of the people that need these jobs. So, while some baseline delusional, others really pull through, and others, well, they try, they do their best, but, at the end of the day, their best simply was not good enough, and I have to let them go. And it is that group, that while they really didn't have what it took to do that job, by some, they would be wrongly accused of being a scam artist, as opposed to some poor sod that simply really could not do the job they thought they could, and who knows, maybe 20 years ago, they could have, but today, with a hard life, and living poorly, they simply can't anymore. They are not scam artists, they are not looking to deceive people, they are just trying to do honest work, and chose the wrong profession. 

    But lets go a step further, what is a scam, I mean, for me, a scam is when someone maliciously and deliberately seeks to be dishonest in their dealing. I deal with these people as well, but, when someone tells me that any faltering is a scam, I have to disagree with them, that would be like my employer telling me if I called in sick, I am scamming them, because I said I would do the job and was not doing the job when I supposed to be doing the job.. and I am just gonna bullshit on that mentality right now.
    Quizzical
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,473
    edited June 2021
    Ungood said:

    But lets go a step further, what is a scam, I mean, for me, a scam is when someone maliciously and deliberately seeks to be dishonest in their dealing. I deal with these people as well, but, when someone tells me that any faltering is a scam, I have to disagree with them, that would be like my employer telling me if I called in sick, I am scamming them, because I said I would do the job and was not doing the job when I supposed to be doing the job.. and I am just gonna bullshit on that mentality right now.

    Not sure I am seeing your point here.  Are you saying you called in sick, but was not sick?  How many days you doing this?
    If you conning your employer for 8mil yeah I would say that's definitely a scam.  But scams don't have to be big, they can be little ones too.

    Now if you saying you are honestly sick, and being straight with your employer, but was unable to meet the deadline due to a reasonable excuse and would have met the deadline if x didn't happen, then well I already said that's not a scam to me.

    I once had fired an employee that said the product they was selling could cure cancer.  Product wasn't even related to cancer so this was a lawsuit waiting to happen.  When asked why they were saying it, they said they had much higher sales using that line because people wanted hope.  I told them this was illegal and with no proof to support that claim, and their response was, "how do you know it cant".

    That is the crux of it to me, some people will promise anything, if there is no proof that it cant happen, because it might happen.  They have no problem making the claim it "will happen" for their personal gain of course.  I don't care if they half believe or not they scamming people either way if they are misrepresenting the situation.  Nobody is going to be able to get in their heads to know for sure.

    There is a lot of businesses regulated this way, unfortunately mmo's/kickstarter is not regulated this way.

    Lastly you make it seem as if these people are innocent.  I agree there are a lot of dumb people, but they are not that dumb I can assure you.   Next time why don't you ask these same people if they will give you $100 today, if you might give them $200 next week but if you don't, they lose it all, see how many take you up on that.  I suspect they are not as dumb as you think.
    BruceYeeUngoodGdemami
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,563
    Livestock amp Equine Equipment  MS14 Manure Spreaders  John Deere US
    Kyleran

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

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  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Ungood said:
    But lets go a step further, what is a scam, I mean, for me, a scam is when someone maliciously and deliberately seeks to be dishonest in their dealing.

    That "deliberately seeks to be dishonest in their dealing" part is basically their entire Kickstarter page..
    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Brainy said:
    Lastly you make it seem as if these people are innocent.  I agree there are a lot of dumb people, but they are not that dumb I can assure you.   Next time why don't you ask these same people if they will give you $100 today, if you might give them $200 next week but if you don't, they lose it all, see how many take you up on that.  I suspect they are not as dumb as you think.
    Innocent is such a strong word, and not the correct one for this situation either.

    But with that said, You highly over estimate people's smarts, or how dumb they are, as most of morons I deal with are too stupid to realize they run the risk of losing it all, and would just blindly think I was going to give them $200 next week, or are too broke ass to give me 100 to start with. So there is that, I mean, no dis to my crew, some of them are absolutely great people, really honest decent people, hard workers, and I have a lot of good things to say about most of the people I work with. But lets be honest, you don't get into contract construction jobs because you graduated Summa Cum Laude from Harvard with a PhD in Economics, it's because you need money, and while the job is hard it pays well, for as long as it lasts, at least.

    Which tells you all you need to know about the people who dump money into these KS games, with no realization they are in fact taking a risk.

    Now, I am not defending these people, some of these snake oil MMO sales people are scum of the earth, and have put out direct scams. Like for example, Mr Walsh with CoE, and I believe Dreamworld is also on the Iffy Slope, but they did put out an alpha, which is laps around anything CoE did, so there is that.

    But that in no way means ALL of the MMO KS projects were Scams like some people claim nor does it mean every failed MMO was a Scam. Some of them were released as games, and maybe not what the backers envisioned, they were made and launched none the less, some of them, well to be honest, I didn't back them because I thought they had a less chance of making that game then I had of my back not hurting at work tomorrow.

    But that is part of a backer playing a risk management game. If you look at something, and it Quacks like a Otter on Meth.. maybe you should not give them little Johnny's College fund.
    GdemamiBrainy
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,931
    edited June 2021
    We seem to have got on to scams, the only one I would put into that category is Dreamworld. For me the others we have talked about just show repeated mismanagement. Even with that mismanagement we may get a decent game launch, but obviously that is less likely when you divert resources to other games and so on.
    UngoodGdemami
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Gdemami said:
    Scot said:
    When you chose to comment so rarely it is rather easy to disparage a posters overall position by picking out something that was not completely thought through.
    ....except that is not the case.

    You are the ones not learning from past mistakes and still posting dumb crap how devs are repeating same mistakes, calling them incompetent or w/e disrespectful.

    See, he still pushes it...third time's the charm, right?

    Bottom line is, you guys have no clue what you talk about - case in point just above. Instead of keeping his mouth shut after embarassing himself so badly, he keeps going. Big mouths, no self-reflection or any decency. It's shameful and sad.


    The way you write makes me picture gollum sitting behind the keyboard for some reason, always brings a smile to my face.

    "...see, seee, he still pussshes it, he still psuushes it my preciousss"
    maskedweasel
    ....
  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,804
    edited June 2021
    Meh.
    Let people keep contributing to these until they stop contributing.

    I've got marginally better things to do with my time than worry about people who throw $60 at something without even understanding what they are buying.

    Trying to keep that from happening is like drying to drain the ocean.
    SovrathScot[Deleted User]KyleranGaendric
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,473
    I get many on this Forum wont have any sympathy for people who are not fully aware of the MMO kickstarter scam projects.  However what most don't understand is people who read this forum are well informed in comparison to the general public.

    Anyone and I mean anyone can fall for a scam.  Especially when its outside their expertise.  Banking/Securities, Lawyers/Judges, Medical, Pharmaceuticals, Real Estate, Mechanics, Car Sales to name a few.  I am sure before any laws were passed, the scams were much worse than they are now.  In most of these industries now, both private companies and government regulation has tapered scams some.  Lemon laws for Cars, and Appraisals for houses are required by banks and government.  Imagine how many scams would be taking place without any home appraisals at all.

    What's different here, is companies like Kickstarter are putting in writing full protections for Scammers and almost no recourse for customers as it applies to MMO's.  The legal system hasn't really weighed in yet.  If some judge holds Kickstarter responsible and it sticks through appeal, I guarantee it would change things.

    A lot of these people backing these products are not full time forum watchers.  They may have seen a new studio of Blizzard executives forming Dreamhaven, then confused when they seen this Kickstarter Dreamworld and wanted to get in early.  Yeah sure they didn't investigate and do due diligence, but how many contracts have you signed without fully reading?  In todays world if you read every single EULA update or contract you wont be doing much other than reading your life away.  Does this mean you should forfeit all rights, and these companies have zero repercussions?

    I deal with contracts all the time.  Just because someone signs something, doesn't always make it binding.  Judges throw out clauses or entire contracts out all the time for various reasons.  Especially when there is Malfeasance or Misrepresentation involved.

    Next time you auto-except that google EULA, I hope it doesn't say in the fine print you forfeit all your current and future assets to Google if you accept it.  Your fine with the Judge saying "You should have read the fine print"?
    GdemamiUngoodYashaX
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,344
    should be a difference between a Scam and a Failure. 
    Ungood

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,473
    should be a difference between a Scam and a Failure. 

    I agree, however I think they should lose any protection the moment they lie or misrepresent on purpose.
    Gdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,848
    I'm fine with calling DreamWorld a scam.  That looked egregious and implausible right from the start.  What I'm not fine with is saying that practically every failed game is a scam.
    UngoodYashaXKyleranGdemamiScot
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