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  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,421
    ..........(snip)...........

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    .......(snip).......... 
    Does this make sense to you? Does it sound truthful? 
    Do alarm bells not go off with this kind of information being put out there? 
    Cecropia

    Once upon a time....

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Gdemami said:
    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, 
    Oh, so to prove masks do not work, you need a parallel universe but somehow, there is ample evidence they do work even without one :D

    With that line of thinking, you can prove about anything...which is just happening.

    To measure their effectiveness with precision and certainty that would have to be the case, along with the condition all other factors remain equal.

    Vermillion's suggestion would be less certain, but actually possible.

    The approximation of that to the extent possible is routinely used in scientific experimentation. With it, mankind comes closest to proving anything within our capacity for understanding.
    Gdemami
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,351
    I wear my mask everywhere I go, I wash my hands and sanitize many times a day. Last thing I want is a reminder of this time. I also has no desire to wash my hands in game to remind of the reality of how we have to live now. When we have herd immunity, first thing I going to do is have a mask burning party.
    Asm0deus
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,202
    ..........(snip)...........

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    .......(snip).......... 
    Does this make sense to you? Does it sound truthful? 
    Do alarm bells not go off with this kind of information being put out there? 
    Well, im a bit different, this flu/rsv season i saw one case and most of my colleagues hadnt seen any. We experienced the huge drop first hand. I had no patient positive for flu that i tested nor for RSV and you would have had 50 to 100+ per provider per season. 

    Plus, in a study out of Boston, incidences of rsv/croup/flu/ear infection dropped precipitously as they are impacted by viruses wheras urinary tract infection stayed the same as it is more of a hygiene/anatomy issue. 

    So in short, im on the front lines, i saw and experienced the precipitous drop in incidence.
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,984
    As a healthcare profession, ill weigh in on some topics.

    There is ample evidence that face masks help in preventing covid19 transmssion.

    Just google "face mask effectiveness with covid + pubmed" 

    With the pubmed, you will get the scientific journals that are published and peer reviewed. 

    They show a benefit to them with cloth masks being least beneficial.

    Someone said if masks worked, covid would have been gone and that is a fallacy of thinking.

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    The whole goal of masks/lockdowns/social distamce was to mitigate covid19 as that is all you can do. 

    Another person mentioned that covid19 is a mild viral illness, which is partially true, but it is very unusual in many ways. Also, you cant just say 3-5% have severe issues because that is a huge percentage. You think of the mortality of covid19 but dont think of the morbidity of it. It has complications, longhauler symptoms, it causes complications in kids, etc. 

    Essentially, dont focus on just death numbers, there is a lot if morbidity from it. 

    I do agree it will be just like another virus eventually.

    Moreover, experts changed their recs all the time and that is 100% expected in medicine as time goes on you make your best prediction and with more data and research you find out more and can make more accurate recommendations. Some treatments we did 7 years ago we no longer do anymore due to the newer research. It makes it tough being a physician because you are always in school mode to keep up to date. 

    Also, medical experts and scientists around the world helped create the modern world we have now, ill trust the professional scholarly organizations over random internet people or rogue doctors with agendas. As a physician in academic medicine the vast majority of us only care about doing what is best for patients, but there are exceptions. 
    This is disturbing.

    So you're a Physician and you do not know the intended use of disposable fabric masks? Wow. To be clear they are intended for bacteria and bodily splash or spray. Viruses are too small for these masks. Covid 19 is 80-140 nm. Again, this is like throwing sand at a chain linked fence. 

    Also, with respect to Influenza, there is a very good reason why we saw such a massive drop in cases. Last summer the CDC (for a short time) had a very interesting statement at the top of their website. It was stated that of all the deaths from Covid 19, only 6% died from the virus itself while the other 94% may have had Covid 19 but died from other life threatening conditions. The numbers have been manipulated and you better believe that this was all political. In fact the US had more deaths in 2018 than in 2020. Think about that. 


    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 636
    edited June 4
    Cecropia said:
    As a healthcare profession, ill weigh in on some topics.

    There is ample evidence that face masks help in preventing covid19 transmssion.

    Just google "face mask effectiveness with covid + pubmed" 

    With the pubmed, you will get the scientific journals that are published and peer reviewed. 

    They show a benefit to them with cloth masks being least beneficial.

    Someone said if masks worked, covid would have been gone and that is a fallacy of thinking.

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    The whole goal of masks/lockdowns/social distamce was to mitigate covid19 as that is all you can do. 

    Another person mentioned that covid19 is a mild viral illness, which is partially true, but it is very unusual in many ways. Also, you cant just say 3-5% have severe issues because that is a huge percentage. You think of the mortality of covid19 but dont think of the morbidity of it. It has complications, longhauler symptoms, it causes complications in kids, etc. 

    Essentially, dont focus on just death numbers, there is a lot if morbidity from it. 

    I do agree it will be just like another virus eventually.

    Moreover, experts changed their recs all the time and that is 100% expected in medicine as time goes on you make your best prediction and with more data and research you find out more and can make more accurate recommendations. Some treatments we did 7 years ago we no longer do anymore due to the newer research. It makes it tough being a physician because you are always in school mode to keep up to date. 

    Also, medical experts and scientists around the world helped create the modern world we have now, ill trust the professional scholarly organizations over random internet people or rogue doctors with agendas. As a physician in academic medicine the vast majority of us only care about doing what is best for patients, but there are exceptions. 
    This is disturbing.

    So you're a Physician and you do not know the intended use of disposable fabric masks? Wow. To be clear they are intended for bacteria and bodily splash or spray. Viruses are too small for these masks. Covid 19 is 80-140 nm. Again, this is like throwing sand at a chain linked fence. 

    Also, with respect to Influenza, there is a very good reason why we saw such a massive drop in cases. Last summer the CDC (for a short time) had a very interesting statement at the top of their website. It was stated that of all the deaths from Covid 19, only 6% died from the virus itself while the other 94% may have had Covid 19 but died from other life threatening conditions. The numbers have been manipulated and you better believe that this was all political. In fact the US had more deaths in 2018 than in 2020. Think about that. 



    There was a big car accident in my country including some foreign trucks. The drivers were exhausted(real problem) and apparently had COVID.

    Want to guess what was the official cause of death?

    In short, yeah. We should be wary of comorbidity etc of COVID far more than about its rather small mortality. Also, it's quite virulent(that's what gives us these "HORRIBLE" death numbers). But we should also be worried about any side effects and consequences of vaccination. Keep in mind:

    This vaccine has been hodge-podged in like 2 years tops. Other vaccines like MoPaRu and the like were sometimes developed for DECADES and they still had unknownside effects. With that said:

    Everyone should weigh for himself whether he'd rather risk with COVID(and papa Nurgle in general) or with strange new vaccines. I'll choose the known evil over unknown benefactor, tyvm(because it is unknown, it might just turn out not to be a real benefactor, in fact)! But everyone should decide this for himself. Everyone.
  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,984
    Gorwe said:
    Cecropia said:
    As a healthcare profession, ill weigh in on some topics.

    There is ample evidence that face masks help in preventing covid19 transmssion.

    Just google "face mask effectiveness with covid + pubmed" 

    With the pubmed, you will get the scientific journals that are published and peer reviewed. 

    They show a benefit to them with cloth masks being least beneficial.

    Someone said if masks worked, covid would have been gone and that is a fallacy of thinking.

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    The whole goal of masks/lockdowns/social distamce was to mitigate covid19 as that is all you can do. 

    Another person mentioned that covid19 is a mild viral illness, which is partially true, but it is very unusual in many ways. Also, you cant just say 3-5% have severe issues because that is a huge percentage. You think of the mortality of covid19 but dont think of the morbidity of it. It has complications, longhauler symptoms, it causes complications in kids, etc. 

    Essentially, dont focus on just death numbers, there is a lot if morbidity from it. 

    I do agree it will be just like another virus eventually.

    Moreover, experts changed their recs all the time and that is 100% expected in medicine as time goes on you make your best prediction and with more data and research you find out more and can make more accurate recommendations. Some treatments we did 7 years ago we no longer do anymore due to the newer research. It makes it tough being a physician because you are always in school mode to keep up to date. 

    Also, medical experts and scientists around the world helped create the modern world we have now, ill trust the professional scholarly organizations over random internet people or rogue doctors with agendas. As a physician in academic medicine the vast majority of us only care about doing what is best for patients, but there are exceptions. 
    This is disturbing.

    So you're a Physician and you do not know the intended use of disposable fabric masks? Wow. To be clear they are intended for bacteria and bodily splash or spray. Viruses are too small for these masks. Covid 19 is 80-140 nm. Again, this is like throwing sand at a chain linked fence. 

    Also, with respect to Influenza, there is a very good reason why we saw such a massive drop in cases. Last summer the CDC (for a short time) had a very interesting statement at the top of their website. It was stated that of all the deaths from Covid 19, only 6% died from the virus itself while the other 94% may have had Covid 19 but died from other life threatening conditions. The numbers have been manipulated and you better believe that this was all political. In fact the US had more deaths in 2018 than in 2020. Think about that. 



    There was a big car accident in my country including some foreign trucks. The drivers were exhausted(real problem) and apparently had COVID.

    Want to guess what was the official cause of death?

    In short, yeah. We should be wary of comorbidity etc of COVID far more than about its rather small mortality. Also, it's quite virulent(that's what gives us these "HORRIBLE" death numbers). But we should also be worried about any side effects and consequences of vaccination. Keep in mind:

    This vaccine has been hodge-podged in like 2 years tops. Other vaccines like MoPaRu and the like were sometimes developed for DECADES and they still had unknownside effects. With that said:

    Everyone should weigh for himself whether he'd rather risk with COVID(and papa Nurgle in general) or with strange new vaccines. I'll choose the known evil over unknown benefactor, tyvm(because it is unknown, it might just turn out not to be a real benefactor, in fact)! But everyone should decide this for himself. Everyone.
    I completely agree with you with respect to comorbidity, and you are absolutely correct about these vaccines.

    A couple of weeks ago I watched a news conference with an FDA official who clearly said that "we cannot in good conscience approve vaccines that we would not give to our own children". Unfortunately, with the new US administration, they were able pass an emergency act to get these things approved.

     My family will not be taking any of these vaccines let alone one of the mRNA types.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,202
    Cecropia said:
    As a healthcare profession, ill weigh in on some topics.

    There is ample evidence that face masks help in preventing covid19 transmssion.

    Just google "face mask effectiveness with covid + pubmed" 

    With the pubmed, you will get the scientific journals that are published and peer reviewed. 

    They show a benefit to them with cloth masks being least beneficial.

    Someone said if masks worked, covid would have been gone and that is a fallacy of thinking.

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    The whole goal of masks/lockdowns/social distamce was to mitigate covid19 as that is all you can do. 

    Another person mentioned that covid19 is a mild viral illness, which is partially true, but it is very unusual in many ways. Also, you cant just say 3-5% have severe issues because that is a huge percentage. You think of the mortality of covid19 but dont think of the morbidity of it. It has complications, longhauler symptoms, it causes complications in kids, etc. 

    Essentially, dont focus on just death numbers, there is a lot if morbidity from it. 

    I do agree it will be just like another virus eventually.

    Moreover, experts changed their recs all the time and that is 100% expected in medicine as time goes on you make your best prediction and with more data and research you find out more and can make more accurate recommendations. Some treatments we did 7 years ago we no longer do anymore due to the newer research. It makes it tough being a physician because you are always in school mode to keep up to date. 

    Also, medical experts and scientists around the world helped create the modern world we have now, ill trust the professional scholarly organizations over random internet people or rogue doctors with agendas. As a physician in academic medicine the vast majority of us only care about doing what is best for patients, but there are exceptions. 
    This is disturbing.

    So you're a Physician and you do not know the intended use of disposable fabric masks? Wow. To be clear they are intended for bacteria and bodily splash or spray. Viruses are too small for these masks. Covid 19 is 80-140 nm. Again, this is like throwing sand at a chain linked fence. 

    Also, with respect to Influenza, there is a very good reason why we saw such a massive drop in cases. Last summer the CDC (for a short time) had a very interesting statement at the top of their website. It was stated that of all the deaths from Covid 19, only 6% died from the virus itself while the other 94% may have had Covid 19 but died from other life threatening conditions. The numbers have been manipulated and you better believe that this was all political. In fact the US had more deaths in 2018 than in 2020. Think about that. 


     You are likely not in the medical field and fail to make the proper conclusion from the study.

    6% of people died without any other comorbidity from covid, the rest, died from Covid19 with pre existing comorbidities. 

    Cause of death, is still covid19 in both cases as the patients likely died from respiratory failure. The conclusion from the statistics is that comorbidities are a huge risk factor in dying from covid19 and not that 6% of the reported covid deaths were caused by covid and the rest were due to comorbidities. 

    So if they are obese or have diabetes, that didnt kill them, it weakened them, but the killer was still covid19. The mechanism of respiratory failure was still covid19.

    It is like 2 people being left alone in the desert, one has no comorbidities, one has a bunch, they both died? What killed them? Dehydration . . . Similar scenario.

    Also, viruses, many of them travel on droplets, not all of them, those are blocked, less virus that shoots out per breath is a win for a mask. 

    Look at the data by using the search terms i put in. The evidence is clear. 

    Also, masks are not just used for that, patients with infectious diseases such as rsv, flu, you put the patient on droplet precautions which means the nurse and whoever walks in wears a gown and a mask. 

    If it is tuberculosis you do airborne precautions which is with a respirator. 

    I dont know where you got the idea that masks were only for bacteria and body fluids.
    GdemamiAsm0deus
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Gorwe said:

    This vaccine has been hodge-podged in like 2 years tops. Other vaccines like MoPaRu and the like were sometimes developed for DECADES and they still had unknownside effects. With that said:

    Everyone should weigh for himself whether he'd rather risk with COVID(and papa Nurgle in general) or with strange new vaccines. I'll choose the known evil over unknown benefactor, tyvm(because it is unknown, it might just turn out not to be a real benefactor, in fact)! But everyone should decide this for himself. Everyone.

    The process was less than ideal, as were the circumstances that led to it. Sadly, the real world doesn't always indulge the ideal.

    What should be done is mandatory inoculation of everyone except those with genuine medical reasons to be excluded.

    What will be done is a continued half-assed approach to the pandemic, such as you suggest, that will prolong it and increase the overall harm it causes.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,000
    Anyone who believes anything should be mandatory should always be ignored.
    Gorwe
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,421
    ..........(snip)...........

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    .......(snip).......... 
    Does this make sense to you? Does it sound truthful? 
    Do alarm bells not go off with this kind of information being put out there? 
    Well, im a bit different, this flu/rsv season i saw one case and most of my colleagues hadnt seen any. We experienced the huge drop first hand. I had no patient positive for flu that i tested nor for RSV and you would have had 50 to 100+ per provider per season. 

    Plus, in a study out of Boston, incidences of rsv/croup/flu/ear infection dropped precipitously as they are impacted by viruses wheras urinary tract infection stayed the same as it is more of a hygiene/anatomy issue. 

    So in short, im on the front lines, i saw and experienced the precipitous drop in incidence.
    I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that you saw a 100x reduction. At least not without some extenuating circumstances (departmental, or whatever). 
    Some impressive reduction is logical what with all the lockdowns. But not nearly that much. 

    Once upon a time....

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Anyone who believes anything should be mandatory should always be ignored.

    Society only exists and continues through the constraint of human behaviour. It these pandemics continue to persist and escalate as is expected, it will only survive through much greater constraint regarding mitigation and inoculation then is currently applied.

    Hopefully the powers that be will figure that out before a pandemic strikes far more perilous than the current one, making any effort at that point too little and too late.

    Societal survival is more important than indulging the whims of the selfish. The collective right in a society to live in good health should outweigh the personal right to risk the lives and quality thereof of those around us.
    GdemamiTuor7
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 636
    Gorwe said:

    This vaccine has been hodge-podged in like 2 years tops. Other vaccines like MoPaRu and the like were sometimes developed for DECADES and they still had unknownside effects. With that said:

    Everyone should weigh for himself whether he'd rather risk with COVID(and papa Nurgle in general) or with strange new vaccines. I'll choose the known evil over unknown benefactor, tyvm(because it is unknown, it might just turn out not to be a real benefactor, in fact)! But everyone should decide this for himself. Everyone.

    The process was less than ideal, as were the circumstances that led to it. Sadly, the real world doesn't always indulge the ideal.

    What should be done is mandatory inoculation of everyone except those with genuine medical reasons to be excluded.

    What will be done is a continued half-assed approach to the pandemic, such as you suggest, that will prolong it and increase the overall harm it causes.

    But what are those "genuine medical reasons"? How can you define them when you are talking about one of the most rushed vaccines ever(=most consequences are still unknown)?

    Otherwise, I sorta agree. There are vaccinations out there which are mandatory(I think) like MPR and which work. But! They weren't hodge podge'd in just over a year.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,421
    Anyone who believes anything should be mandatory should always be ignored.

    Society only exists and continues through the constraint of human behaviour. It these pandemics continue to persist and escalate as is expected, it will only survive through much greater constraint regarding mitigation and inoculation then is currently applied.

    Hopefully the powers that be will figure that out before a pandemic strikes far more perilous than the current one, making any effort at that point too little and too late.

    Societal survival is more important than indulging the whims of the selfish. The collective right in a society to live in good health should outweigh the personal right to risk the lives and quality thereof of those around us.
    Bullshit on that one. 
    Herd immunity has taken hold. No way in hell is anyone forcing people to "behave" according to their whims based on hysteria stemming from the fake "science." 
    It's over for the liberals and their self determined importance. 

    Once upon a time....

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    Anyone who believes anything should be mandatory should always be ignored.

    Society only exists and continues through the constraint of human behaviour. It these pandemics continue to persist and escalate as is expected, it will only survive through much greater constraint regarding mitigation and inoculation then is currently applied.

    Hopefully the powers that be will figure that out before a pandemic strikes far more perilous than the current one, making any effort at that point too little and too late.

    Societal survival is more important than indulging the whims of the selfish. The collective right in a society to live in good health should outweigh the personal right to risk the lives and quality thereof of those around us.
    And where does that logic end?  Once you have forced all citizens (not sure if you are American) to get the vaccine do you force other countries?  And if they refuse do you attack them?  Because what you are proposing only works if everyone globally is vaccinated.  Otherwise there will always be variants that form in another country that can find there way here and some of those variants will be immune to the vaccine.

    What you are proposing is very scary.  More so because I believe you are sincere. 

    And I say this as someone who IS vaccinated and so is his family.  But that was our choice. 

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,332
    You mean, I asked him to send tax payer money to a Chinese lab to research gain of function and lie about it to congress?  Totally separate issues from whether mask work or not. 
    Of course it is not separate issue. The issue is the same - public opinion.

    There is no problem with sendig money to chinese lab, neither is following science, principles of democracy and reason in dealing with covid but once "public opinion" is ignoring any of that, you do not have much a choice but to lie.


    In fact, you can find a parallel on these boards to when it comes to game development.

    It is very much the same thing.
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,202
    ..........(snip)...........

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    .......(snip).......... 
    Does this make sense to you? Does it sound truthful? 
    Do alarm bells not go off with this kind of information being put out there? 
    Well, im a bit different, this flu/rsv season i saw one case and most of my colleagues hadnt seen any. We experienced the huge drop first hand. I had no patient positive for flu that i tested nor for RSV and you would have had 50 to 100+ per provider per season. 

    Plus, in a study out of Boston, incidences of rsv/croup/flu/ear infection dropped precipitously as they are impacted by viruses wheras urinary tract infection stayed the same as it is more of a hygiene/anatomy issue. 

    So in short, im on the front lines, i saw and experienced the precipitous drop in incidence.
    I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that you saw a 100x reduction. At least not without some extenuating circumstances (departmental, or whatever). 
    Some impressive reduction is logical what with all the lockdowns. But not nearly that much. 

    Look at cdc data that is sent to them from testing laboratories, look at a few papers, myself and colleagues reported similar findings. 
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,421
    ..........(snip)...........

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    .......(snip).......... 
    Does this make sense to you? Does it sound truthful? 
    Do alarm bells not go off with this kind of information being put out there? 
    Well, im a bit different, this flu/rsv season i saw one case and most of my colleagues hadnt seen any. We experienced the huge drop first hand. I had no patient positive for flu that i tested nor for RSV and you would have had 50 to 100+ per provider per season. 

    Plus, in a study out of Boston, incidences of rsv/croup/flu/ear infection dropped precipitously as they are impacted by viruses wheras urinary tract infection stayed the same as it is more of a hygiene/anatomy issue. 

    So in short, im on the front lines, i saw and experienced the precipitous drop in incidence.
    I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that you saw a 100x reduction. At least not without some extenuating circumstances (departmental, or whatever). 
    Some impressive reduction is logical what with all the lockdowns. But not nearly that much. 

    Look at cdc data that is sent to them from testing laboratories, look at a few papers, myself and colleagues reported similar findings. 
    Yeah, well, I still don't believe that. 

    Here, some quick research...

    ---------------------------------
    "46%: That’s how much U.S. sales of over-the-counter cold, flu, and cough medicine declined in the five week period ending Dec 26, 2020 from the same period last year, according to data from Nielsen, reported by Bloomberg.

    Sales of cold medicines like NyQuil and Vicks are down because fewer people are falling ill with these symptoms during what is normally the peak of the cold and flu season. It may not surprise you to learn that social distancing, hand-washing, and wearing a mask arrests the spread not just of the novel coronavirus but also of other common pathogens that infect us, like the influenza virus." 

    -----------------------------------

    https://marker.medium.com/why-sales-of-cold-medicine-are-crashing-this-winter-e3b825707b27

    Now, does that match your reduction of 100 times? 46% vs. 99%, not even close. 

    And even that article calls for continues social distancing, masks, etc. Which is like calling for a social shutdown, and economic ruin for all. No doubt Big Brother will take care of us all (at a cost of liberty and personal rights). 

    Gdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,202
    ..........(snip)...........

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    .......(snip).......... 
    Does this make sense to you? Does it sound truthful? 
    Do alarm bells not go off with this kind of information being put out there? 
    Well, im a bit different, this flu/rsv season i saw one case and most of my colleagues hadnt seen any. We experienced the huge drop first hand. I had no patient positive for flu that i tested nor for RSV and you would have had 50 to 100+ per provider per season. 

    Plus, in a study out of Boston, incidences of rsv/croup/flu/ear infection dropped precipitously as they are impacted by viruses wheras urinary tract infection stayed the same as it is more of a hygiene/anatomy issue. 

    So in short, im on the front lines, i saw and experienced the precipitous drop in incidence.
    I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that you saw a 100x reduction. At least not without some extenuating circumstances (departmental, or whatever). 
    Some impressive reduction is logical what with all the lockdowns. But not nearly that much. 

    Look at cdc data that is sent to them from testing laboratories, look at a few papers, myself and colleagues reported similar findings. 
    Yeah, well, I still don't believe that. 

    Here, some quick research...

    ---------------------------------
    "46%: That’s how much U.S. sales of over-the-counter cold, flu, and cough medicine declined in the five week period ending Dec 26, 2020 from the same period last year, according to data from Nielsen, reported by Bloomberg.

    Sales of cold medicines like NyQuil and Vicks are down because fewer people are falling ill with these symptoms during what is normally the peak of the cold and flu season. It may not surprise you to learn that social distancing, hand-washing, and wearing a mask arrests the spread not just of the novel coronavirus but also of other common pathogens that infect us, like the influenza virus." 

    -----------------------------------

    https://marker.medium.com/why-sales-of-cold-medicine-are-crashing-this-winter-e3b825707b27

    Now, does that match your reduction of 100 times? 46% vs. 99%, not even close. 

    And even that article calls for continues social distancing, masks, etc. Which is like calling for a social shutdown, and economic ruin for all. No doubt Big Brother will take care of us all (at a cost of liberty and personal rights). 

    Not apples to apples. You are using over the counter purchases as a proxy where i am talking about diagnostic labs who test the nasopharyngeal swabs used to detect influenza A and B and RSV specifically. 

    Perhaps not a 100x fold decrease but it has been pretty drastic, it is statistically significant by far. 

    I think the observation of improvement doesnt mean that physicians think lockdowns should continue.

    I think people should wear masks if they are sick at all times, but lockdowns is not necessary after herd immunity. Also, pediatricians called heavily for school opening for many months before the govt followed suit. 


    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 9,262
    Derailed thread it would seem.
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Anyone who believes anything should be mandatory should always be ignored.

    Society only exists and continues through the constraint of human behaviour. It these pandemics continue to persist and escalate as is expected, it will only survive through much greater constraint regarding mitigation and inoculation then is currently applied.

    Hopefully the powers that be will figure that out before a pandemic strikes far more perilous than the current one, making any effort at that point too little and too late.

    Societal survival is more important than indulging the whims of the selfish. The collective right in a society to live in good health should outweigh the personal right to risk the lives and quality thereof of those around us.
    And where does that logic end?  Once you have forced all citizens (not sure if you are American) to get the vaccine do you force other countries?  And if they refuse do you attack them?  Because what you are proposing only works if everyone globally is vaccinated.  Otherwise there will always be variants that form in another country that can find there way here and some of those variants will be immune to the vaccine.

    What you are proposing is very scary.  More so because I believe you are sincere. 

    And I say this as someone who IS vaccinated and so is his family.  But that was our choice. 

    It ends when it is no longer necessary. Keep in mind the scenario is a pandemic escalation to the point societal survival is in question, not what we are meandering through today. Think more Black Death plus.

    It would not require global inoculation, simply national combined with isolation. So, no, nothing would be brought in as nobody would be coming in.

    Yes, it is scary. So is the scenario. The first time around was bad enough. If it had been combined with the ability to travel about the world as quickly and easily as today it could very well have been globally catastrophic.

    So, yes I'm very sincere. Conditions of that extremity require extreme measures in response in an effort to maximize human survival.

    No need to worry though. I'm not in a position of power such that I could make that happen if a pandemic of that intensity were to occur. I'd simply be part of the massive death toll due to my already less than ideal health and the likely lacking will of those in power to do what need be done.
    GdemamiGorwe
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,421
    ..........(snip)...........

    Only real way to see what would have happened without lockdowns and masks is a parallel universe which we cant do, but we can look at a proxy and see that flu and RSV incidences were less than 1% of the usual. Over 100 times reduced. I wonder what intervention could have caused that. 

    .......(snip).......... 
    Does this make sense to you? Does it sound truthful? 
    Do alarm bells not go off with this kind of information being put out there? 
    Well, im a bit different, this flu/rsv season i saw one case and most of my colleagues hadnt seen any. We experienced the huge drop first hand. I had no patient positive for flu that i tested nor for RSV and you would have had 50 to 100+ per provider per season. 

    Plus, in a study out of Boston, incidences of rsv/croup/flu/ear infection dropped precipitously as they are impacted by viruses wheras urinary tract infection stayed the same as it is more of a hygiene/anatomy issue. 

    So in short, im on the front lines, i saw and experienced the precipitous drop in incidence.
    I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that you saw a 100x reduction. At least not without some extenuating circumstances (departmental, or whatever). 
    Some impressive reduction is logical what with all the lockdowns. But not nearly that much. 

    Look at cdc data that is sent to them from testing laboratories, look at a few papers, myself and colleagues reported similar findings. 
    Yeah, well, I still don't believe that. 

    Here, some quick research...

    ---------------------------------
    "46%: That’s how much U.S. sales of over-the-counter cold, flu, and cough medicine declined in the five week period ending Dec 26, 2020 from the same period last year, according to data from Nielsen, reported by Bloomberg.

    Sales of cold medicines like NyQuil and Vicks are down because fewer people are falling ill with these symptoms during what is normally the peak of the cold and flu season. It may not surprise you to learn that social distancing, hand-washing, and wearing a mask arrests the spread not just of the novel coronavirus but also of other common pathogens that infect us, like the influenza virus." 

    -----------------------------------

    https://marker.medium.com/why-sales-of-cold-medicine-are-crashing-this-winter-e3b825707b27

    Now, does that match your reduction of 100 times? 46% vs. 99%, not even close. 

    And even that article calls for continues social distancing, masks, etc. Which is like calling for a social shutdown, and economic ruin for all. No doubt Big Brother will take care of us all (at a cost of liberty and personal rights). 

    Not apples to apples. You are using over the counter purchases as a proxy where i am talking about diagnostic labs who test the nasopharyngeal swabs used to detect influenza A and B and RSV specifically. 

    Perhaps not a 100x fold decrease but it has been pretty drastic, it is statistically significant by far. 

    I think the observation of improvement doesnt mean that physicians think lockdowns should continue.

    I think people should wear masks if they are sick at all times, but lockdowns is not necessary after herd immunity. Also, pediatricians called heavily for school opening for many months before the govt followed suit. 


    It sounds to me like you and I are coming to some agreements here. 
    Talk isn't so cheap after all, eh? 

    Once upon a time....

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Gorwe said:
    Gorwe said:

    This vaccine has been hodge-podged in like 2 years tops. Other vaccines like MoPaRu and the like were sometimes developed for DECADES and they still had unknownside effects. With that said:

    Everyone should weigh for himself whether he'd rather risk with COVID(and papa Nurgle in general) or with strange new vaccines. I'll choose the known evil over unknown benefactor, tyvm(because it is unknown, it might just turn out not to be a real benefactor, in fact)! But everyone should decide this for himself. Everyone.

    The process was less than ideal, as were the circumstances that led to it. Sadly, the real world doesn't always indulge the ideal.

    What should be done is mandatory inoculation of everyone except those with genuine medical reasons to be excluded.

    What will be done is a continued half-assed approach to the pandemic, such as you suggest, that will prolong it and increase the overall harm it causes.

    But what are those "genuine medical reasons"? How can you define them when you are talking about one of the most rushed vaccines ever(=most consequences are still unknown)?

    Otherwise, I sorta agree. There are vaccinations out there which are mandatory(I think) like MPR and which work. But! They weren't hodge podge'd in just over a year.

    You start with what is known and adapt to what is learnt.

    Genuine medical reasons for not getting vaccinated have been established already, such as being extremely allergic to what they contain, those with autoimmune conditions consulting their physicians prior to vaccination. You begin there and expand the list as needed if these particular vaccines are found to necessitate that.

    Potential issues that could happen years down from mass vaccination are weighed against those that could happen without before the decision is made. That it is being done indicates that it is felt to be the best choice with what is known, likely more aptly described as the least onerous of the two.

    Obviously, the process behind these vaccines isn't ideal. Locking down the world until the vaccines could go through the proper process also isn't ideal, and probably not even feasible. Letting the virus run rampant, merrily mutating along the way, while we go through the proper process of making the vaccines definitely isn't feasible.

    So, it is a matter of doing the best we can in a bad situation, one made worse for each person that can take the vaccine refusing to do so.

    Personal freedom is keen and all, but should we really have the freedom to imperil the lives and health of those around us, except for those that can't do otherwise due to being unable to get vaccinated?

    I don't think so. I think this is a matter where personal freedom must be curtailed for the benefit of society overall. Such isn't even anything new. There are many, many laws already in place that constrain personal freedom for that very reason.
    Gdemami
This discussion has been closed.