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New World cash shop to go P2W with boosts etc?

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,468
    kitarad said:
    You cannot complain because a lot of you wanted the subscriptions to stop because you didn't like having to pay a sub. So deal with it because there are no limits once you allow them to make money any way they can they will do it.

     
    If you can ever find a single post from me saying I wanted F2P games and "wanted the subscriptions to stop" I'll give you a cookie.

    So no thank you.  I won't "deal with it" because I will always pick a sub over a cash shop.  Heck, I think they need to test significantly higher sub fees if that is what it takes. Charge me a fair price for the product.  Just do not nickel and dime me. 

    KyleranGdemamiTokkenXthos[Deleted User]

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • Big.Daddy.SamediBig.Daddy.Samedi Member UncommonPosts: 406
    edited May 2021
    Rungar said:
    What would be your solution? They are under pressure to make money and cant get it from a subscription. The only other options they have is rapid content generation or real pay to win. I guess they could harass you at the amazon checkout like they do at walmart to donate. 

    Im always ready to take a shit on devs when they make weak gameplay but I think players expect more than what's reasonable from buy to play games. 

    nothing I read there was gamebreaking or even unreasonable considering it has no subscription. 


    A company like amazon could release yearly full priced expansions...  it isn't like they have to buy new servers for the game or anything....  They could also add an optional sub with some perks.

    I don't overly care about cosmetics or boosts..... BUT it is a slippery slope and could just as well become lockboxes and inventory space.
    BruceYeeGdemami

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,534
    So they're skipping the ESO sub year and going straight to the B2P + cash shop model? No surprise. I always assumed it would be a B2P + cash shop game.

    ESO's cash shop also started very slowly with cosmetics and consumables. They didn't even have XP boosts at the start.

    Many here said "just wait" but I defended it as being benign and nothing to worry about then. They were right and I was wrong.

    This shit morphs over time to the over-priced behemoth ESO's shop is now with loot boxes, complete skill lines for sale, riding lesson boosts, daily full screen ads and all kinds of shit that straddle the P2W line.

    ZOS also said all the right things about what they would "never" do, until they did all those things.

    So no, Kira is not being an alarmist. He's being a realist based on how cash shops historically evolve to cover all the "convenience" bases. They are good at identifying "pain points" (often even manufacturing pain points or at least not improving them in the base game) so that the cash shop will have something for everyone no matter what their individual "pain point" might be.

    Defend it al you want, indulge in some schadenfrude because PvPers are also targeted, be the guy who isn't bothered because they never buy cash shop shit anyway. Doesn't matter because it's the single most obnoxious thing that keeps me away from live service games more and more each day.

    It's funny to me that posters here spend all kinds of time examining in minute detail different game mechanics, like death penalties, things that encourage grouping, etc., in an attempt to come up with solutions that would make MMORPGS great again... all the while giving a pass to the elephant in the room.

    Cash shops make live service games shit because they suck the life out of them and turn them all into malls with deliberate bad designs so they can sell you cash shop relief.

    And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
    Slapshot1188Big.Daddy.SamediBruceYeeYashaXKyleranGdemamiNildenSensaiMendel[Deleted User]
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
     I give them a pass because I have examined it. I consider it a reasonable compromise to play these games for free. 

    Gdemami
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,534
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    So they're skipping the ESO sub year and going straight to the B2P + cash shop model? No surprise. I always assumed it would be a B2P + cash shop game.

    ESO's cash shop also started very slowly with cosmetics and consumables. They didn't even have XP boosts at the start.

    Many here said "just wait" but I defended it as being benign and nothing to worry about then. They were right and I was wrong.

    This shit morphs over time to the over-priced behemoth ESO's shop is now with loot boxes, complete skill lines for sale, riding lesson boosts, daily full screen ads and all kinds of shit that straddle the P2W line.

    ZOS also said all the right things about what they would "never" do, until they did all those things.

    So no, Kira is not being an alarmist. He's being a realist based on how cash shops historically evolve to cover all the "convenience" bases. They are good at identifying "pain points" (often even manufacturing pain points or at least not improving them in the base game) so that the cash shop will have something for everyone no matter what their individual "pain point" might be.

    Defend it al you want, indulge in some schadenfrude because PvPers are also targeted, be the guy who isn't bothered because they never buy cash shop shit anyway. Doesn't matter because it's the single most obnoxious thing that keeps me away from live service games more and more each day.

    It's funny to me that posters here spend all kinds of time examining in minute detail different game mechanics, like death penalties, things that encourage grouping, etc., in an attempt to come up with solutions that would make MMORPGS great again... all the while giving a pass to the elephant in the room.

    Cash shops make live service games shit because they suck the life out of them and turn them all into malls with deliberate bad designs so they can sell you cash shop relief.

    And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.

    The subscription gatekeeping was no better or less predatory.

    This idea that some things in a cash shop are okay because they don't make it unfair for pvp play but other things aren't because now they have to spend money to keep up is total bullshit.

    GaaS games (which MMOs always have been a member of but for some strange reason are treated differently) have always been about milking as much as possible from users.

    This sort of thing doesn't make it any better but I certainly have no sympathy for the crowd that have virtue-signaled "cosmetics" as an A+ great way to pay for game and then are outraged when the leopards come eat their face.

    And the sub model was completely predatory and user hostile. One could spend $1000 on a game and lose all of that when they stopped letting Blizzard/ZoS/SquareEnix/NCSoft milk their wallet continuously. We've even lost games because they've been shut down because they can't milk enough to be considered "viable".

    It's all horrible and there is no redeeming path for these games regarding monetization.
    Well I have never agreed with you that subs are just as predatory but to me their cost isn't even the point.

    The point is that sub games are games where everything you obtain, be it cosmetics or anything else you care about are obtained by playing the game. I care about playing games and how the game play is. If it's too grindy for my taste I just stop playing just how I did with WoW Classic for that very reason.

    But if inventory space is inadequate and enough players complain about it, in sub games they add inventory space. If it takes 6 months to fully level your riding skill and enough people complain about that, they fix the timing.

    To me it's about improving the game to make it a better game over time. Cash shop games don't bother much or at all because their income depends on having those pain points in order to sell relief.

    That to me is the most basic difference between a sub and a cash shop game.

    It also doesn't matter what the model is with respect to the fleeting nature of virtual items. Neither your time nor cash shop purchases are permanent chattel. It is always subject to the game service continuing and if it shuts down, it's all gone.
    KyleranGdemamiYashaXMendel[Deleted User]
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    kitarad said:
    You cannot complain because a lot of you wanted the subscriptions to stop because you didn't like having to pay a sub. So deal with it because there are no limits once you allow them to make money any way they can they will do it.

    None of us are organised enough to make a difference. Enough people support a game that it makes enough money and these things just proliferate. The mistake started when we taught companies to stop at just having subscriptions. So now not only do they have subscriptions but it is just not enough so they sell stuff on the cash shop and it becomes egregious to a point that only the whales can play.

    I try to play without buying anything except the subscription but I occasionally am guilty of buying some things too so we just have to play and accept what we can because the next game will be worse.

    Pat yourselves on the back for leading the charge when you demanded companies stop charging a sub.

    Your entire post is the best example I've ever seen on the internet of game company/industry manipulation fully manifesting in one person.

    I was going to go over everything you wrote but won't and just say that thinking WE ever had any impact of anything the corp gaming industry has done is like thinking one person swimming can change the current in the ocean. They already had everything ready to go before our part in the story came to be. Thinking they were on the verge of collapse unless they went full cash shop instead of sub is probably the greatest deception of all. The whole public "trust us, we're doing this for you" persona is a strong contender for that #1 spot though.. Pretending to not be collecting 100k-300k+ salaries and working for companies richer than all of us combined pulling in hundreds of billions yearly...

    Their greatest tool in the belt is US not knowing their intentions/motivations AND being completely clueless about game development.

    Notice Blizz just reducing the TBC copy fee from $35 to $15 more than 50% reduction then claiming "It's the first time we've done this, we didn't know..." Multi-billion dollar corp acting like a oblivious victim again.. realized that people saw through their BS and decided to settle for $15 instead of $0.
    Gdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,468
    BruceYee said:



    I was going to go over everything you wrote but won't and just say that thinking WE ever had any impact of anything the corp gaming industry has done is like thinking one person swimming can change the current in the ocean. 
     ---snip---
    Notice Blizz just reducing the TBC copy fee from $35 to $15 more than 50% reduction then claiming "It's the first time we've done this, we didn't know..." Multi-billion dollar corp acting like a oblivious victim again.. realized that people saw through their BS and decided to settle for $15 instead of $0.
    I don't know if you realize this but your second highlight just proved the first one to be wrong.

    Consumers can certainly make a difference and force changes in the way a company behaves.  It happens all the time.  
    KyleranBruceYeeSensai[Deleted User]

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    edited May 2021
    BruceYee said:



    I was going to go over everything you wrote but won't and just say that thinking WE ever had any impact of anything the corp gaming industry has done is like thinking one person swimming can change the current in the ocean. 
     ---snip---
    Notice Blizz just reducing the TBC copy fee from $35 to $15 more than 50% reduction then claiming "It's the first time we've done this, we didn't know..." Multi-billion dollar corp acting like a oblivious victim again.. realized that people saw through their BS and decided to settle for $15 instead of $0.
    I don't know if you realize this but your second highlight just proved the first one to be wrong.

    Consumers can certainly make a difference and force changes in the way a company behaves.  It happens all the time.  
    LOL Well done, I like that injection of humor in this otherwise serious thread xD

    It doesn't really though b/c it was possibly an option they already had set up before they tested out the $35 fee on the public. People rejected plan A($35) so they resort to Plan B($15) Plan C was/is possibly $0. Ever negotiated in a bazaar? start high then even the regular intended price($15) seems like a good deal to those who don't know the true value of what's being sold and is still better than the lowest possible option for the seller.

    The context of what I was referring to in my first statement was related to how the industry almost collectively proclaimed that they would crumble unless they adopted cash shops only after they saw the profits that were being made in the east. Until then they were touting 300k EVE subs as a great success in the industry. They saw the fast money that was being made and decided to lie to people who don't know any better to eventually get those 200 million dollar bonuses.

    Edit: If what @Albatroes said in the other Blizz thread is true then during the test they asked people via poll an acceptable price for the server copy with the lowest option being... $15
    Not $5 or $10 but $15. Plan B 15 I'll call it. They set that price themselves as the lowest meaning that the decision was already made? ;)
    Hire me Blizz, I'll make the obvious less obvious for you for the low salary of just 400k/yr ;)
    GdemamiILLISET
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,534
    Interesting new development. New World says no boosts of any type at launch:




    BruceYeeSlapshot1188YashaX[Deleted User]
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Iselin said:
    Interesting new development. New World says no boosts of any type at launch:





    "at launch" not "ever"

    adding later..

    cosmetics first to get the gears greased..
    GdemamiKyleran[Deleted User]
  • ILLISETILLISET Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Iselin said:
    Interesting new development. New World says no boosts of any type at launch:




    At launch is the kicker there.  They will eventually add Boosts for money.  I'm out lols.  Give me a Sub game plz with zero cash shop, zero cosmetic purchases, in hard mode please. Ty 
    Gdemami
  • KumaponKumapon Member RarePosts: 1,451
    You can clearly see the noobiness of Amazon here. You don't leak stuff like this on the Alpha. You just implement them a week after launch, without any pre-info. Also after everyone has bought the game and can't refund.



    GdemamiKylerankitarad[Deleted User]Rungar[Deleted User]
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,928
    tzervo said:
    BruceYee said:

    How exactly is referencing something copied directly from testers under NDA "speculative"?
    More than half of his video is not "testers under NDA said...", it is "What if in the future...."
    Yeah, but we've all seen how cash shops usually go, not exactly a giant leap to predict the future in terms of these things.

    Already they've started by qualifying it with "at launch" so it's natural to assume they're purposefully leaving the door wide open in the future, just in case.

    Just think how easy it would have been to state "There will never be boosts of any type for sale."

    It's OK to hope for the best, but better to expect the worst which is normally what you're going to get in the end, at least when it comes to game monetization.






    [Deleted User]Gdemami

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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,256
    I won't be playing this game because I don't like action combat and PvP. I will be waiting to see how fast they introduce all the boosts and other cash shop items after 'launch'. It should be an interesting sequence and I wonder how many people will buy the game and actually quit. Many I suspect will stay even after the boosts are introduced. Once you make an investment in time and effort it is hard to let something go.
    MendelGdemami

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,723
    edited May 2021
    Iselin said:
    Interesting new development. New World says no boosts of any type at launch:




    This post basically deflates most peoples P2W objections. These boosts will be for mostly new players and alts to catch up to where everyone else is already at. If they choose to use them.

    Great knee jerk reactions for KriaTV. Shows how off base he is. 
    IselinYashaX
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,322
    Nanfoodle said:
    Iselin said:
    Interesting new development. New World says no boosts of any type at launch:




    This post basically deflates most peoples P2W objections. These boosts will be for mostly new players and alts to catch up to where everyone else is already at. If they choose to use them.

    Great knee jerk reactions for KriaTV. Shows how off base he is. 

    Only if Amazon keeps their word.  Cash shop with no boosts at launch.  Cash shop introduced boots at launch + 1 year.  If that time becomes 1 day, there will be an outcry.

    Basing one's hopes on a developer keeping their word when there is money to be made is a losing proposition.



    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,738
    Was only half way interested in it, this lessens it.  Not a fan of boosts and such, especially testing them before launch means it won't be long after launch probably that they are in.  They probably know people aren't a huge fan of it, so they will maximize people buying it by not having it in at launch, then when it makes economic sense and will be a greater gain than the lost number of calculated b2p sales, they will launch the boosts and so on from there.  It is speculation, but you don't create selling boosts to not use them, especially before launch.
    Gdemami
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,723
    Mendel said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Iselin said:
    Interesting new development. New World says no boosts of any type at launch:




    This post basically deflates most peoples P2W objections. These boosts will be for mostly new players and alts to catch up to where everyone else is already at. If they choose to use them.

    Great knee jerk reactions for KriaTV. Shows how off base he is. 

    Only if Amazon keeps their word.  Cash shop with no boosts at launch.  Cash shop introduced boots at launch + 1 year.  If that time becomes 1 day, there will be an outcry.

    Basing one's hopes on a developer keeping their word when there is money to be made is a losing proposition.



    And taking people at their word till they break it is considered the kind and right thing to do. Amazon has yet to blow smoke on anything. Matter of fact, they rarely say anything. We have no reason to think this would be anything but the truth and also makes sense on what would work best for Amazon. Letting people boost from the start means their content would have a shorter life cycle and means they would need to spend more on production sooner. I dont think this tweet is nothing but face value of what is. 
  • ILLISETILLISET Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Player driven economy + convenience boosts for crafting = p2w 
    Gdemami
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,577
    There is no excuse for anyone that buys the game and is surprised when amazon ends up doing some really shady stuff to make a buck.  All of the red flags are clear, they aren't ready for a project of this scope.
    ILLISETGdemamiTimukas
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,322
    Nanfoodle said:
    Mendel said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Iselin said:
    Interesting new development. New World says no boosts of any type at launch:




    This post basically deflates most peoples P2W objections. These boosts will be for mostly new players and alts to catch up to where everyone else is already at. If they choose to use them.

    Great knee jerk reactions for KriaTV. Shows how off base he is. 

    Only if Amazon keeps their word.  Cash shop with no boosts at launch.  Cash shop introduced boots at launch + 1 year.  If that time becomes 1 day, there will be an outcry.

    Basing one's hopes on a developer keeping their word when there is money to be made is a losing proposition.



    And taking people at their word till they break it is considered the kind and right thing to do. Amazon has yet to blow smoke on anything. Matter of fact, they rarely say anything. We have no reason to think this would be anything but the truth and also makes sense on what would work best for Amazon. Letting people boost from the start means their content would have a shorter life cycle and means they would need to spend more on production sooner. I dont think this tweet is nothing but face value of what is. 

    I hope you are right and this is nothing deeper.  Couldn't they have committed verbally how long they would keep boots out of their cash shop?  If they had simply said 'we will not sell boosts for 6 months', that ends this particular avenue of speculation.  But they left that door open.

    I fully admit that I may be biased against Amazon.  I blame them for the disappearance of brick-and-mortar book stores, my former favorite places.  Let's just say I have yet to see them leave money on the table.  I am willing to be amazed.



    NanfoodleGdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,723
    Mendel said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Mendel said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Iselin said:
    Interesting new development. New World says no boosts of any type at launch:




    This post basically deflates most peoples P2W objections. These boosts will be for mostly new players and alts to catch up to where everyone else is already at. If they choose to use them.

    Great knee jerk reactions for KriaTV. Shows how off base he is. 

    Only if Amazon keeps their word.  Cash shop with no boosts at launch.  Cash shop introduced boots at launch + 1 year.  If that time becomes 1 day, there will be an outcry.

    Basing one's hopes on a developer keeping their word when there is money to be made is a losing proposition.



    And taking people at their word till they break it is considered the kind and right thing to do. Amazon has yet to blow smoke on anything. Matter of fact, they rarely say anything. We have no reason to think this would be anything but the truth and also makes sense on what would work best for Amazon. Letting people boost from the start means their content would have a shorter life cycle and means they would need to spend more on production sooner. I dont think this tweet is nothing but face value of what is. 

    I hope you are right and this is nothing deeper.  Couldn't they have committed verbally how long they would keep boots out of their cash shop?  If they had simply said 'we will not sell boosts for 6 months', that ends this particular avenue of speculation.  But they left that door open.

    I fully admit that I may be biased against Amazon.  I blame them for the disappearance of brick-and-mortar book stores, my former favorite places.  Let's just say I have yet to see them leave money on the table.  I am willing to be amazed.



    I think the problem is people breaking the NDA before they could test their systems. And make an official decision on what they plan to do. As for book stores closing, Im right there with you. I used to spend hours in book stores and now we only have one left in out city and its a chain. But I am guilty as Amazon, I use them allot just because I like to save money. But I do support our only local book store lol
  • ILLISETILLISET Member UncommonPosts: 119
    There is no excuse for anyone that buys the game and is surprised when amazon ends up doing some really shady stuff to make a buck.  All of the red flags are clear, they aren't ready for a project of this scope.
    Problem is, most people have already purchased the game..  soo.... yeah. 
    Gdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,468
    Mendel said:


    I fully admit that I may be biased against Amazon.  I blame them for the disappearance of brick-and-mortar book stores, my former favorite places.  Let's just say I have yet to see them leave money on the table.  I am willing to be amazed.



    Everyone should be biased against Amazon IMHO
    RexKushmanGdemamiSpiider

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,723
    ILLISET said:
    There is no excuse for anyone that buys the game and is surprised when amazon ends up doing some really shady stuff to make a buck.  All of the red flags are clear, they aren't ready for a project of this scope.
    Problem is, most people have already purchased the game..  soo.... yeah. 
    I got a refund. Anyone can get a refund. 
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