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The future of mmos is rental servers.

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  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,558
    Rungar said:
    I don't think there's anything wrong with people being more selective as to who they want to play with. 

    if anything it will be good for the genre that advertises massive multiplayer but designs mostly solo experiences.

    Don't you already get what you want from survival game?  So what's the problem?


    SensaiBrainy
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,503
    AAAMEOW said:
    Rungar said:
    I don't think there's anything wrong with people being more selective as to who they want to play with. 

    if anything it will be good for the genre that advertises massive multiplayer but designs mostly solo experiences.

    Don't you already get what you want from survival game?  So what's the problem?



    Maybe they also want that from RPGs.... back then there were games like Neverwinter Nights, but it's a bit lost at the moment.

    Neverwinter NIghts is still around.  It does seem far more like what the OP would like.  I think he's on a personal mission to change every game into a game he likes, rather than being a bit more selective.  I guess we're all guilty of that to some degree.



    ScotSensai[Deleted User]

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Scot said:
    Delete, just because we think it is a bad idea does not mean it will go away.
    Yah.. Like Loot Boxes.. shit idea tat won't flush.
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,580
    edited May 2021
    Stizzled said:
    It shocks me how many people are so vehemently against this, some to the point of seeming almost offended at the idea. I guess it shouldn't surprise me though, the MMORPG community is pretty opposed to change, which is why the genre has stagnated and died.

    The truth is, there isn't much of a future for MMOs, and only a few diehards are left to really lament the passing of massive multiplayer worlds. The rest of us are ready to move on and are looking for smaller multiplayer experiences that scratch the same itch.
    The future of MMOs may be to slowly wither away and die. It's sad, but if it happens it happens.

    I'm surprised by some people's need to pretend that MMOs are turning into smaller multiplayer experiences. They're not. Those are different genres that may be better enough to marginalize and mostly replace MMOs.
    Gdemami
     
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,560
    Well as someone who played on Ark and Conan Exiles on private servers that people rented...

    1) Its cheaper for the players as only one person has to rent the server.

    Point number one is vastly skipped over for that one guy just stopping the rental and *poof* goodbye server.

    Making @cheyane have an even more pertinent point.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,904
    edited May 2021
    Mendel said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Rungar said:
    I don't think there's anything wrong with people being more selective as to who they want to play with. 

    if anything it will be good for the genre that advertises massive multiplayer but designs mostly solo experiences.

    Don't you already get what you want from survival game?  So what's the problem?



    Maybe they also want that from RPGs.... back then there were games like Neverwinter Nights, but it's a bit lost at the moment.

    Neverwinter NIghts is still around.  It does seem far more like what the OP would like.  I think he's on a personal mission to change every game into a game he likes, rather than being a bit more selective.  I guess we're all guilty of that to some degree.




    I don't think he is on such a crusade. He's just disapointed in what MMORPGs are right now, and despite the "big oldies" still going very strong (WoW, ESO, GW2, etc...), we don't really get anything new recently, at least with a decent quality, so he thinks something different would work... maybe without realizing it already exists but it's NOT MMORPGs.
    Truth be told we are all on something of a crusade, but I welcome new ideas as the genre has become rather stagnant. Roughly my own crusade is for a DAOC PvP setup with the PvE story of TSW and a hybrid mix of old and new school gameplay. But I realise this may not be feasible to build and even then it may not have the appeal I think it would have. Modding and building are two possible extra "must haves".

    So when new posters come on with some interesting ideas I think we need to look at a them, some of Rungar's thinking in other areas is closer to mine, just not here.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    edited May 2021
    Nilden said:
    Well as someone who played on Ark and Conan Exiles on private servers that people rented...

    1) Its cheaper for the players as only one person has to rent the server.

    Point number one is vastly skipped over for that one guy just stopping the rental and *poof* goodbye server.

    Making @cheyane have an even more pertinent point.
    This problem will be resolved with the platform (i.e steam) provided servers because the server wont go poof. It will just be deactivated until its paid for by another player or group of players. So the server isnt just yours but everyone who plays on it, as anyone can pay for it.

    beyond that there is nothing to say that the server being stopped is the end of your character either. 

    so no different than any mmo really. 
    UngoodGdemami
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    edited May 2021
    Rungar said:
    Nilden said:
    Well as someone who played on Ark and Conan Exiles on private servers that people rented...

    1) Its cheaper for the players as only one person has to rent the server.

    Point number one is vastly skipped over for that one guy just stopping the rental and *poof* goodbye server.

    Making @cheyane have an even more pertinent point.
    This problem will be resolved with the platform (i.e steam) provided servers because the server wont go poof. It will just be deactivated until its paid for by another player or group of players. So the server isnt just yours but everyone who plays on it, as anyone can pay for it.

    beyond that there is nothing to say that the server being stopped is the end of your character either. 

    so no different than any mmo really. 
    LOL, DDO, a few years back, set it up so that if the Guild Leader was absent for over 90 days, any officer could take over the leadership.

    You would have been amazed at how many people who where guild leaders that lost their shit about this, and made a huge fuss that they would have to kick all their officers if they had the risk they would not be able to play the game.

    I cannot imagine what kind of pitiful shitstorm the idea of losing rulership of a server would cause these people if they didn't keep up their monthly payments.

    But I would be inclined to want to see it.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,854
    "The future of mmos is rental servers."

    NO IT'S NOT!!!!

    Just play SWG:L

    ...WAIT WHAT lmao :)
    My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022

    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

    Currently Playing; Dragonflight and SWG:L
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Ungood said:
    Rungar said:
    Nilden said:
    Well as someone who played on Ark and Conan Exiles on private servers that people rented...

    1) Its cheaper for the players as only one person has to rent the server.

    Point number one is vastly skipped over for that one guy just stopping the rental and *poof* goodbye server.

    Making @cheyane have an even more pertinent point.
    This problem will be resolved with the platform (i.e steam) provided servers because the server wont go poof. It will just be deactivated until its paid for by another player or group of players. So the server isnt just yours but everyone who plays on it, as anyone can pay for it.

    beyond that there is nothing to say that the server being stopped is the end of your character either. 

    so no different than any mmo really. 
    LOL, DDO, a few years back, set it up so that if the Guild Leader was absent for over 90 days, any officer could take over the leadership.

    You would have been amazed at how many people who where guild leaders that lost their shit about this, and made a huge fuss that they would have to kick all their officers if they had the risk they would not be able to play the game.

    I cannot imagine what kind of pitiful shitstorm the idea of losing rulership of a server would cause these people if they didn't keep up their monthly payments.

    But I would be inclined to want to see it.
    who is to say that you paying for it gives you anything more than the other players? 
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,558
    edited May 2021
    Rungar said:
    Nilden said:
    Well as someone who played on Ark and Conan Exiles on private servers that people rented...

    1) Its cheaper for the players as only one person has to rent the server.

    Point number one is vastly skipped over for that one guy just stopping the rental and *poof* goodbye server.

    Making @cheyane have an even more pertinent point.
    This problem will be resolved with the platform (i.e steam) provided servers because the server wont go poof. It will just be deactivated until its paid for by another player or group of players. So the server isnt just yours but everyone who plays on it, as anyone can pay for it.

    beyond that there is nothing to say that the server being stopped is the end of your character either. 

    so no different than any mmo really. 
    I felt it is non sense.  If I set up the server it is up to me to decide what to do with the server.  Or at least that is how it works now.  

    Not to mention Games already have official server I believe.  

    Why would steam need to get involve in anything.  You act like it is hard to set up a private server.  You'd think a person capable of administrating a private server should know how to put the server on a cloud(any cloud) for it to run.  

    Quite honestly if steam is getting involved with server hosting it "still" is going to use google cloud or amazon web service.  Either way.  At least that is my guess and understanding.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,558
    Stizzled said:
    It shocks me how many people are so vehemently against this, some to the point of seeming almost offended at the idea. I guess it shouldn't surprise me though, the MMORPG community is pretty opposed to change, which is why the genre has stagnated and died.

    The truth is, there isn't much of a future for MMOs, and only a few diehards are left to really lament the passing of massive multiplayer worlds. The rest of us are ready to move on and are looking for smaller multiplayer experiences that scratch the same itch.
    The thing is aren't people already playing survival game or private server?

    So are you currently unhappy with the state of survival game?  

    Because saying mmorpg should be more like survival game is similar to saying survival game should be more like mmorpg.  

    So what are people so unhappy about surival game that they want to play more like mmorpg.  
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,558
    Stizzled said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    It shocks me how many people are so vehemently against this, some to the point of seeming almost offended at the idea. I guess it shouldn't surprise me though, the MMORPG community is pretty opposed to change, which is why the genre has stagnated and died.

    The truth is, there isn't much of a future for MMOs, and only a few diehards are left to really lament the passing of massive multiplayer worlds. The rest of us are ready to move on and are looking for smaller multiplayer experiences that scratch the same itch.
    The thing is aren't people already playing survival game or private server?

    So are you currently unhappy with the state of survival game?  

    Because saying mmorpg should be more like survival game is similar to saying survival game should be more like mmorpg.  

    So what are people so unhappy about surival game that they want to play more like mmorpg.  
    Are survival games the only ones allowed to have dedicated servers, rented or otherwise?

    I'm not unhappy with the current state of survival games. But, they aren't (for the most part) multiplayer RPGs with quests to undertake and rich, interesting worlds to explore, and that is what I want.

    I think many people are having a hard time imagining an online RPG meant for maybe 10-15 players with hosted servers. Not an MMO, not necessarily what I want MMOs to be, but a new type of game to scratch that old MMO itch.

    The allure of existing within an online world populated by massive amounts of other players has worn off. The worst part of any MMO is, ironically, the community.

    Fair enough.  So basically you want to play CO-OP skyrim or MMORPG EMU with a small group.  You want something with more depth than the current crop of survival game.  
    [Deleted User]
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,560
    Rungar said:
    Nilden said:
    Well as someone who played on Ark and Conan Exiles on private servers that people rented...

    1) Its cheaper for the players as only one person has to rent the server.

    Point number one is vastly skipped over for that one guy just stopping the rental and *poof* goodbye server.

    Making @cheyane have an even more pertinent point.
    This problem will be resolved with the platform (i.e steam) provided servers because the server wont go poof. It will just be deactivated until its paid for by another player or group of players. So the server isnt just yours but everyone who plays on it, as anyone can pay for it.

    beyond that there is nothing to say that the server being stopped is the end of your character either. 

    so no different than any mmo really. 
    Right except steam doesn't provide servers and if the guy renting them stops renting them they currently *poof*.

    There is absolutely no guarantee that any of what you propose for rental servers would ever become reality.

    Also are these rental servers going to have cash shops? There is no way any MMO with a cash shop would switch to rental servers that do not have a cash shop if they would lose money.

    Also also if your character is kept can you transfer from a server with x5 xp x5 resources x5 skill points and bring that character to a default server? In fact if you are changing server settings because that's one of the major selling points of a rental server how could you have characters transfer between them without being able to abuse that?

    To top that off going back to my original point none of these servers have a player cap over 100 so we are not even talking about actual MMOs.

    There is a massive difference between a MMO and rental servers.

    In fact just to prove my point try and explain how rental servers could ever work for say World of Warcraft. 

    Just imho this will never work. 





    Mendel

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    This isnt a battle of wits or anything. It just makes sense for a company like steam to offer that as an integrated service. Once they do that, how many developers are going to utilize that as opposed to those who will go it alone? 

    why do they use steam at all? Because its easy and it works. Is it costly? yes it is, but obviously worth it. 

    the more these big platforms offer the developers they entice to host their games there. If its already happening i imagine its only a matter of time. 

    you might find that you end up with many more small mmos rather than get an offering every 10 years or so. 

      
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,195
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I have thought this for a while.  Make a MMORPG based around allowing players creating their own classes and content, worlds and etc.  To me things like this would greatly benefit from advanced procedural content as well.  One way to have avoid having to set up a ton of quest.  You just setup the narrative and rules to your spawning, quest and etc.  Procedurally generate the rest. 

    MMORPG just beg to the procedurally generated.  

    It's called minecraft, and it is very popular.

    I'm actually confused why OP can't play whatever he enjoy now.  

    My guess is OP want to play whatever he is playing now, just be more grand?



    Not even close honestly. Not sure why in MMORPG crowd new ideas are always followed by someone play something else. Then folks turn around and complain about WoW standard for the last 17 years.
    People probably tried, like more realistic version of minecraft or EQ next.  

    The OP could go to survival game forum and asking the developer to make their game bigger.  Which I assume that is what the OP is asking.  But who is making it?

    Everything just sound good on paper.  But who is making it?  Not to mention you probably need a game engine which is capable of procedurally generated content for it to even start.  

    If something is never made before, it is probably not that easy to make IMO.  


    Yeah, but this mentality from the players and developers has helped lead the genre to essentially maintenance mode. Not like this started recently. It used to be worst back in the day. It is not productive to topics. If someone had the game they wanted to play they would play it.  
    [Deleted User]Mendel
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,560
    Scot said:

    So when new posters come on with some interesting ideas I think we need to look at a them, some of Rungar's thinking in other areas is closer to mine, just not here.

    Yet you, who is usually quite perceptive, ignore one major thing.
    It already exists.
    Some privately run server for existing or old MMORPGs have a player per server capacity of several thousand players, without any major performance problems, and they are run by small private teams.

    Btw, that guy, delete, you are siding with here, is playing on one of those servers, as per his own, recent admittance.
    Private servers and emulators are not rental servers.

    Like a UO shard, SWGemu, City of Heroes: Homecoming, etc etc These are not offing a service that let's you rent your own server. Like G-portal.

    However I am curious what kind of examples you would have of MMO rental servers. I fail to find any actual MMOs on https://www.g-portal.com/en/gameserver/index

    The emus are providing what would be a traditional MMO server that you can connect to for free. They are not a third party providing a service that let's you rent your own server.
    Mendel

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,560
    Torval said:
    Nilden said:
    Well as someone who played on Ark and Conan Exiles on private servers that people rented...

    1) Its cheaper for the players as only one person has to rent the server.

    Point number one is vastly skipped over for that one guy just stopping the rental and *poof* goodbye server.

    Making @cheyane have an even more pertinent point.

    I responded to Cheyane about this concern but to restate the answer: those saves can be downloaded for most games. You're a Minecraft fan I kind of assumed you would be familiar with this.

    Many (most) hosted servers offer FTP or web service interfaces to both download and upload save files and world configurations/data. So if you're playing a local save it can also be uploaded so your friends can continue playing on the world you were experiencing on your local host.
    Yeah I've played on Minecraft servers that got shut down. Nothing I could do about it.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,560
     officially licensed WoW private server...

    Yeah I would say it's a pretty big stretch...

    Worlds Smallest Stretch Armstrong Is Our Kind of Fidget Toy
     
    Considering what happened with Nostalrius.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,560
    Torval said:
    Nilden said:
    Torval said:
    Nilden said:
    Well as someone who played on Ark and Conan Exiles on private servers that people rented...

    1) Its cheaper for the players as only one person has to rent the server.

    Point number one is vastly skipped over for that one guy just stopping the rental and *poof* goodbye server.

    Making @cheyane have an even more pertinent point.

    I responded to Cheyane about this concern but to restate the answer: those saves can be downloaded for most games. You're a Minecraft fan I kind of assumed you would be familiar with this.

    Many (most) hosted servers offer FTP or web service interfaces to both download and upload save files and world configurations/data. So if you're playing a local save it can also be uploaded so your friends can continue playing on the world you were experiencing on your local host.
    Yeah I've played on Minecraft servers that got shut down. Nothing I could do about it.

    I've played on MMOs that shut down and there was nothing I could do about that either. This problem isn't exclusive to hosted servers at all. At least with hosted servers you can communicate with the hosting admin and make a choice to play with friends or guildies and establish an exit strategy from the get go.
    Fair point.

    The major difference I would point out is you are comparing one server being shut down versus the entire game.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,470
    edited May 2021
    The problem isn't the servers it is the content. It is one thing to run a WoW or SWG server based on the work of a whole team that developed a game and quite another to create a game with content and an immersive world that is enough to attract thousands.

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,560
    Torval said:
    I seriously doubt most existing MMOs would transition to a model like this. They're not really setup and packaged for mass consumption although I'm sure some could be. Mostly their established revenue models aren't well suited for it.

    I'm not sure what point you're making with Nostralius though? They were an unsanctioned pirate server that Blizzard shut down. A publisher isn't going to shut down a server they're authorizing rights to rent. It would be part of their business model. Nostralius does show that there are people outside of the official studio capable of spinning up and managing those services.

    I feel like a point is being missed here. There is a future in licensed third party servers for multiplayer games, not unsanctioned pirate servers. This future is already here for survival types. Some of us want to see this expanded to other genres like RPGs or maybe even 4X multiplayer campaigns, cooperative crafting builders, and others.
    Blizzard could have made Nostalrius an officially licensed WoW private server. They didn't. 

    Blizzard could have seen the popularity with private servers and made some kind of licensing deal with them. Once again, they did not.

    Blizzard could have made provisions for third party companies to host WoW rental servers. Nope.

    My point was there is no chance Blizzard will ever do this. In fact if someone tried they would shut it down.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,503
    Okay, here's a couple of questions to the MMO server discussion.
    • What company is making these MMOs?  Development of an MMORPG takes a substantial amount of effort.  Building, selling, and operating a game has been the traditional model for MMORPGs.  Building is mostly cost, with selling hoping to break even or make a small profit, with operations tuned to balance ongoing costs and income.  If they are only building, they are absorbing the costs.  If a company is building and selling, they might make a small profit.  Without the operational part, a company is unlikely to offer an exceptional ROI to potential investors.  So, who are these altruistic game developers?
    • How is making an MMO for other people/companies to operate going to work for the developing company?  If a company is building, selling and operating, what incentive do they have to let others set up private services operating their games?  Establishing a competitor who might take away your revenue doesn't seem like a very sound thing for a business to do.  Maybe after the game has run its natural course, a game might find a second wave of popularity, but why would a company not capture that revenue for themselves?  This model doesn't appear to advance the genre, only prolong the lifespan of a game -- only old games need apply.

    Even if I agreed that private servers are the future of MMORPGs (which I don't), how does a bunch of old games ran by small groups of fans improve the genre?



    [Deleted User]

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    for anyone that likes to use blizzard as a proof concept for mmos i would like to point out that wow is 16 years old and there is no wow 2 or starcraft mmo. 

    blizzard doesnt make mmo's anymore and havent for a long time. 
    Ungood
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Rungar said:
    for anyone that likes to use blizzard as a proof concept for mmos i would like to point out that wow is 16 years old and there is no wow 2 or starcraft mmo. 

    blizzard doesnt make mmo's anymore and havent for a long time. 
    Correction. They don't make new MMO's. They are still making WoW, and have just out a new update.

    Also, there is no WoW 2, because, lets be real here, there does not NEED to be a WoW 2, when WoW 1, is still going stronger than new MMO on the market.

    But I admit, I wished they made a Starcraft MMO, but, then again, Starcraft was never quite a popular as Warcraft, so, I can see why they didn't risk that.
    kitarad
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

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