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The mom test .

2

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  • ILLISETILLISET Member UncommonPosts: 113
    iixviiiix said:
    Basically it is a test that you let people who don't into (or knowing about) video game test the game.
    And if they can play the game without you even to tell them how to , then it is good.


    Do you think this is a good test ? cause alots of games (specially MMO) are so complex with many unuse tabs
    Hmm, I prefer games that take time to figure out.  I don't want a casual experience that anyone can figure out within a couple days.  But hey, I've been gaming for about 25 years.  
    AlBQuirkyScotCryomatrix
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 9,206
    Now I want a soccer mom.
    26 5'6" 135 lbs. Blond would be nice.

    One that would boss me around and tell me what to do. 

    So a Karen?
    delete5230KyleranAlBQuirkyUngoodPo_gg
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,702
    ILLISET said:
    iixviiiix said:
    Basically it is a test that you let people who don't into (or knowing about) video game test the game.
    And if they can play the game without you even to tell them how to , then it is good.


    Do you think this is a good test ? cause alots of games (specially MMO) are so complex with many unuse tabs
    Hmm, I prefer games that take time to figure out.  I don't want a casual experience that anyone can figure out within a couple days.  But hey, I've been gaming for about 25 years.  
    So, jaded and bitter like most of the folks here.

    You'll fit right in.


    TheocritusSovrathAlBQuirkyScotILLISET

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,954
    Complexity does not equal fun. 

    It can, if the design is good.  

    Simplicity does not equal fun.

    It can, if the design is good. 

    That's my take on the pattern....
    KylerantzervoAlBQuirkyiixviiiixILLISET

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,742
    iixviiiix said:
    Basically it is a test that you let people who don't into (or knowing about) video game test the game.
    And if they can play the game without you even to tell them how to , then it is good.


    Do you think this is a good test ? cause alots of games (specially MMO) are so complex with many unuse tabs

    You have a valid point, but is it one most players want?

    Many MMOs do have much "to learn" at the start, especially for players new to the genre or gaming in general. Character creation alone has many players making uninformed decisions that may stay with them for quite awhile.

    But I have to agree with Scot that this would a bad move for games in general. You have to look at your target audience and create for them. If your audience is "everyone", you're fighting a losing race.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,742
    Sovrath said:
    That feels elitist to me.





    So?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,742
    Sovrath said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Sovrath said:
    That feels elitist to me.




    It isn't, but you wouldn't understand.  :)

    But basically you're only allowing people who can immediately grasp the concepts of the game to test it?

    His explanation is a bit hard to follow.

    Separate out the thoughts:
    "Mom Test"
    "make video games easier"
    tzervoTheocritus

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,742
    iixviiiix said:
    Alots of old classic games did the "mom test" too so i sure that you may once play some of those games too . yeah , if so you may did waste your time in crap lol .

    It's a test to see if the game is user friendly enough for people to get in and nothing about the rich and quality of contents


    That was a better explanation :)
    tzervo

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    edited April 29
    Complexity does not equal fun. 

    It can, if the design is good.  

    Simplicity does not equal fun.

    It can, if the design is good. 

    That's my take on the pattern....
    I also like to make the distinction between complicated and complex games, to use terms borrowed from mathematics and system theory - complicated being games with lots of parameters/minute details but being more deterministic/linear whereas complex games have less deterministic and more emergent gameplay.

    A game can be simple but complex (easy to learn, hard to master type of games). It can pass the mom test and still hold interest for a gamer. Conversely, a game that is complicated does not necessarily mean that it is harder or better, it might just be more tedious.
    iixviiiixAlBQuirkyArglebargle
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,708
    In my experience if something is good, people would pay for it. The whole "easy to play, hard to master" motto seems like a winner, but we have had many titles which were hard to play, harder to master and people ate them up with a spoon. 

    Now regarding the test; it heavily depends on a person's patience and how they are generally reacting to new things. If you don't measure those factors in--which is impossible--then the whole test is absolutely meaningless. 
    tzervoiixviiiixAlBQuirky
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Currently Playing: Lords of the Fallen
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    edited April 29
    ...then the whole test is absolutely meaningless. 
    I wouldn't say meaningless, a game being intuitive and easy to learn is generally a positive trait. Just not definitive - some gamers like figuring out complicated and obscure games if they are good like you pointed out.
    iixviiiixAlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    iixviiiix said:
    Basically it is a test that you let people who don't into (or knowing about) video game test the game.
    And if they can play the game without you even to tell them how to , then it is good.


    Do you think this is a good test ? cause alots of games (specially MMO) are so complex with many unuse tabs
    This was one of the things that I took a course on, for my job, it was about Intuitive Design and layout of buildings, so that people could transverse a building they have never been in before, as such key points are in the building should be intuitive, so that people are not ambling around, or needing to ask direction, etc, etc.

    Examples of this, are often main entrances to buildings. These are built and designed into the building at it's construction, to be clearly noticeable, and intuitive to anyone seeking to enter the building. This is why, when a company opts to use an entrance that was not the one originally built into the structure, they need to put up those huge signs that say things like "Use other door" or "Entrance at Side" etc, etc. of course this is just bad design on their part to not use the main entrance which was designed and built to be intuitive for anyone looking to enter the building, but they did what they did, and instead now need to use huge signs, and give directions, that many will at first ignore, after all, how many of us feel we need direction on how to use the designed and designated front door of a building?

    There are a few schools of thought on this one.

    The First being: "How hard is it to read a sign?" which is one point, if someone puts directions up, why do so many refuse to read them? Of course, this makes things harder on their costumers, as now they are expecting people to do something that against the intrinsic design of the building. 

    The Second being "Why not just use the front door as the building?" The whole building was designed around that point of egress to be the front the door. Why not just use the intuitive nature of the building as your front door?

    Finally, "If you are going to change where the front door is, change where the front door" and this is the idea that if for someone reason you can't or don't want to use to the originally designated front door, that you renovate the building, and design a new front door that is intuitive to use for their clients.

    This applies to MMO's in the sense that layouts, designs, and how to play the game should be intuitive, easy to spot, and use. Now this has nothing to do with complexity, ability, or compacity, you can have very complex designs that are in their nature intuitive and easy to handle right from the get-go.

    A great example of thins is GW2, where there is a lot going on, but all of it is pretty easy to find and fumble through without anyone holding your hand telling you where to go or what to look for. The buttons make sense, and you are never at a point where you feel that this button should do something, and nothing happens.

    On the flip side of this, BDO, had a mount button on my Character sheet that looked like it should pull up my Mount Info, and it didn't. The info to get to my mount, was not clear, and the UI was just awkward to me, it didn't flow or feel smooth at all, it was like a huge clunky brick in what could have been an otherwise amazing game, and that really pulled from the fun of the game for me. If I have to fight with the UI just find out basic stuff, or look up basic stats, the design is bad.

    Again, intuitive design has nothing to do with how complex the game can be, or how many features it can have, or anything else like that. It's about a feeling of being able to get in and play.

    Just like intuitive building design has nothing to do with how big, complex, or vast a building can be, as it be applied to a shed, or to a multi billion dollar train station, with the idea being the same, to allow people know what is going on at a glance.
    tzervoiixviiiixAlBQuirkyArglebargleCryomatrix
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,099
    Mom tests makes sense. 

    A good game developer makes sure to introduce elements of the game organically over a period of time allowing players to comprehend the game instead of frontloading a huge quantity of information before you get to properly play the game.

    I loved playing pillars of eternity but the way they handle the start of the game is atrocious. Just like its D&D predecessors it requires familiarity with a system from somewhere else which immediately eliminates lots of people from enjoying the game.

    Compare that to something like dragon age origin, you make a choice of class but all other important decisions are made over time which allows players to jump into the game immediately.


    iixviiiixtzervolahnmirAlBQuirky
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,254
    Ahhh, the argumentative travesty that:

    A: Convoluted means depth
    B. Accessibility means dumbed down

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    AlBQuirkytzervoUngoodiixviiiixPo_gg
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,742
    edited April 29
    Shaigh said:
    Mom tests makes sense. 

    A good game developer makes sure to introduce elements of the game organically over a period of time allowing players to comprehend the game instead of frontloading a huge quantity of information before you get to properly play the game.

    I loved playing pillars of eternity but the way they handle the start of the game is atrocious. Just like its D&D predecessors it requires familiarity with a system from somewhere else which immediately eliminates lots of people from enjoying the game.

    Compare that to something like dragon age origin, you make a choice of class but all other important decisions are made over time which allows players to jump into the game immediately.



    I had the same experience for Pillars of Eternity. I was lost as to what my character creation choices meant. It was "like" D&D, but not. I was lost and spent too much time on their wiki and never tried again.

    Come to think of it, I need to do that again and give it another go :)
    tzervoiixviiiixUngood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,742
    AlBQuirky said:
    Sovrath said:
    That feels elitist to me.





    So?

    I wanted to explain more here.

    Is it "elitist" to want a game to appeal to players with similar interests as me? I DON'T want a game that appeals to mobile, Candy Crush gamers. No thank you.

    If that makes me an "elitist", so be it.
    tzervoiixviiiixUngoodTheocritus

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,708
    tzervo said:
    ...then the whole test is absolutely meaningless. 
    I wouldn't say meaningless, a game being intuitive and easy to learn is generally a positive trait. Just not definitive - some gamers like figuring out complicated and obscure games if they are good like you pointed out.
    I understand your point. But how can you actually measure that? Many other personal and characteristic traits influence their opinion.

    You have to have an extremely large data sample to have a meaningful conclusion, which still would be less meaningful if you had surveyed from people who had previous experience.

    And it all depends on who is going to be your target audience. If your potential costumers are casuals and hobbyists it is pointless to learn another group's opinion on the learning curve. It's like making a car and asking non drivers if it is a smooth ride or not. 
    tzervoUngoodAlBQuirky
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Currently Playing: Lords of the Fallen
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    tzervo said:
    ...then the whole test is absolutely meaningless. 
    I wouldn't say meaningless, a game being intuitive and easy to learn is generally a positive trait. Just not definitive - some gamers like figuring out complicated and obscure games if they are good like you pointed out.
    I understand your point. But how can you actually measure that? Many other personal and characteristic traits influence their opinion.

    You have to have an extremely large data sample to have a meaningful conclusion, which still would be less meaningful if you had surveyed from people who had previous experience.

    And it all depends on who is going to be your target audience. If your potential costumers are casuals and hobbyists it is pointless to learn another group's opinion on the learning curve. It's like making a car and asking non drivers if it is a smooth ride or not. 
    I love this point to be honest.

    I recall one of the points that was brought up regarding the Universal Design theory, and someone said that, what makes something intuitive is largely based on what they already know. IE: You can't expect someone to know how to intuitively use a can opener based on it's design, if they don't even know what a can is.
    tzervoiixviiiixConstantineMerusAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Ungood said:
    tzervo said:
    ...then the whole test is absolutely meaningless. 
    I wouldn't say meaningless, a game being intuitive and easy to learn is generally a positive trait. Just not definitive - some gamers like figuring out complicated and obscure games if they are good like you pointed out.
    I understand your point. But how can you actually measure that? Many other personal and characteristic traits influence their opinion.

    You have to have an extremely large data sample to have a meaningful conclusion, which still would be less meaningful if you had surveyed from people who had previous experience.

    And it all depends on who is going to be your target audience. If your potential costumers are casuals and hobbyists it is pointless to learn another group's opinion on the learning curve. It's like making a car and asking non drivers if it is a smooth ride or not. 
    I love this point to be honest.

    I recall one of the points that was brought up regarding the Universal Design theory, and someone said that, what makes something intuitive is largely based on what they already know. IE: You can't expect someone to know how to intuitively use a can opener based on it's design, if they don't even know what a can is.
    Familiarity is key, hence the controller test. Everyone who plays games knows how to use the controller interface.  
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    Eeeek. Controller. Kill. Stab. Burn.
    SovrathUngoodKyleranAlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    tzervo said:
    Eeeek. Controller. Kill. Stab. Burn.
    I wont play without controller support. just uncomfortable. 
    AlBQuirky
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    Rungar said:
    tzervo said:
    Eeeek. Controller. Kill. Stab. Burn.
    I wont play without controller support. just uncomfortable. 
    Sure, no dis :) I am just the opposite.
    KyleranArglebargleTheocritusAlBQuirky
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 23,068
    The problem is that "the mom test" would force games to be very simple.

    My mom is smart and would be able to figure out how to play some pretty complicated games if she wanted to.  The problem is that she's not interested in games substantially more complicated than Spider Solitaire or Candy Crush.
    AlBQuirky
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 23,068
    Rungar said:
    I have found that people need only 3 choices "at a time". More than that and you are asking for trouble. Less than that you are asking for trouble. 

    3 is the magic number and while there are exceptions to all rules i think you need to use the rule of 3 to appeal to the most players possible while maintaining the depth you want for your game. So design everything around a three choice system and you will get the most bang for your buck, so to speak.
    Even simple games like Solitaire, Minesweeper, or Candy Crush commonly give you a lot more than three choices at a time.
    tzervoAlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Quizzical said:
    Rungar said:
    I have found that people need only 3 choices "at a time". More than that and you are asking for trouble. Less than that you are asking for trouble. 

    3 is the magic number and while there are exceptions to all rules i think you need to use the rule of 3 to appeal to the most players possible while maintaining the depth you want for your game. So design everything around a three choice system and you will get the most bang for your buck, so to speak.
    Even simple games like Solitaire, Minesweeper, or Candy Crush commonly give you a lot more than three choices at a time.
    3 examples eh? why not 10?
    AlBQuirky
    .33 of a second to midnight
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