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Non-Violent MMO (in-development by Spry Fox)

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  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,188
    edited April 24
    tzervo said:
    So, that's my big worry. I have no problem with a non-violent MMORPG, however I do struggle to think up what sort of gameplay could replace combat. 
    No need to think up, you just see the current offerings and make up your mind whether you like it or not:

    ATitD: Politics, building, deep crafting
    One Hour One Life: Extremely deep crafting, building, survival
    Prosperous Universe: Economics, politics

    From what I understand Book of Travels will have a deep focus on exploration. Not sure about the game in OP yet, MOP article has little in terms of details.

    Sadly, I'm into crafting or economics. I have yet to play a game that had enjoyable crafting, virtually everything I've played with crafting involved virtually no gameplay at all: just plug ingredients into a recipe, click-to-make. The fun always seems to be with the selling / economy, which I don't have the patience for.


    So, looking at current offerings, nope, nothing available right now is suitable as a replacement for combat. But, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future :-)
    Fair enough. That's how it is for most people after all, which is why these games remain niche.

    By the way, crafting in One Hour One Life is quite involved and unlike the typical crafting in most MMOs. Not in the actual process, you still put some mats together to get the end product. But in its role in the survival of the colony you are born in and in how intertwined it is with the survival elements of the game and the ecology of the area. The decision making process is different.
    cameltosis
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,442
    edited April 24
    People bring up interesting points but have any of you looked into "Spry Fox"?  If you look at their site they definitely seem to be kid oriented.


    tzervo

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,188
    Also, E:D can be played as a purely non-combat (exploration/space trucking) game. I think it's worth also keeping in mind there are games where non-combat content is treated as a first-class citizen and combat can be 100% and easily avoided (although I personally detest that kind of gameplay in E:D).
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,480
    tzervo said:
    So, that's my big worry. I have no problem with a non-violent MMORPG, however I do struggle to think up what sort of gameplay could replace combat. 
    No need to think up, you just see the current offerings and make up your mind whether you like it or not:

    ATitD: Politics, building, deep crafting
    One Hour One Life: Extremely deep crafting, building, survival
    Prosperous Universe: Economics, politics

    From what I understand Book of Travels will have a deep focus on exploration. Not sure about the game in OP yet, MOP article has little in terms of details.

    Sadly, I'm into crafting or economics. I have yet to play a game that had enjoyable crafting, virtually everything I've played with crafting involved virtually no gameplay at all: just plug ingredients into a recipe, click-to-make. The fun always seems to be with the selling / economy, which I don't have the patience for.


    So, looking at current offerings, nope, nothing available right now is suitable as a replacement for combat. But, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future :-)

    I agree.  The reason why there is nothing suitable for combat is because few games have chosen to pursue non-combat functions within a game.  Most every MMORPG, in particular, has two specific functions, combat and crafting.  Even then, the crafting role is subservient to the combat role, i.e., crafting requires raw materials which are frequently only acquired through combat.  Of all the MMORPGs I've played only LotRO's farming is the only craft skill that isn't tied to combat.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 23,068
    tzervo said:
    So, that's my big worry. I have no problem with a non-violent MMORPG, however I do struggle to think up what sort of gameplay could replace combat. 
    No need to think up, you just see the current offerings and make up your mind whether you like it or not:

    ATitD: Politics, building, deep crafting
    One Hour One Life: Extremely deep crafting, building, survival
    Prosperous Universe: Economics, politics

    From what I understand Book of Travels will have a deep focus on exploration. Not sure about the game in OP yet, MOP article has little in terms of details.

    Sadly, I'm into crafting or economics. I have yet to play a game that had enjoyable crafting, virtually everything I've played with crafting involved virtually no gameplay at all: just plug ingredients into a recipe, click-to-make. The fun always seems to be with the selling / economy, which I don't have the patience for.


    So, looking at current offerings, nope, nothing available right now is suitable as a replacement for combat. But, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future :-)
    Have you at least tried A Tale in the Desert?  That game's crafting very much isn't just click to create an item and be done.  Well, some things in the game are.  But a whole lot of them aren't.
    tzervo
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,614
    edited April 25
    Mendel said:
    Of all the MMORPGs I've played only LotRO's farming is the only craft skill that isn't tied to combat.
    Farmer is a gathering profession, those are all peaceful (mining ores and cutting trees the other two), but the actual crafting professions are peaceful too, cooks, scholars don't need anything from mobs.
    Not to mention you always can trade with other players, and leave the "dirty work" to them :) 

    Other MMORPGs, Neverwinter's Workshop comes to mind, you don't even need to leave PE during your crafting career.



    However, I feel an important aspect is being neglected during the conversation, the focus is strictly on combat vs. non-combat.

    (mind you, maybe just my interpretation, and recent history shows I'm not the sharpest knife in that drawer :D language and translation ain't my forte apparently)
    As I see in the OP, non-violent is just the mean, a tool in this whole process, where the actual goal is "encourage the development of friendships and discourage toxicity"

    So, for me the bigger question is, such setting is, or will, really discouraging toxicity? LotRO could be a great example on how a regular MMORPG with plenty of combat can go really well on the friendship and no toxicity aspect...
    KingIsle games (W101/P101) also have combat, yet they're kid friendly games and not much toxicity either.


    I believe not the combat itself is the key factor in it, but pvp. The most toxic communities I've seen were always in pvp-focused games.
    And not specifically "combat pvp" alone, could be trading, etc.
    Toxicity doesn't even need the game itself, think on the offline corps backstabbings in EVE, or swatting in general.
    tzervo
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,188
    edited April 25
    Po_gg said:
    I believe not the combat itself is the key factor in it, but pvp. The most toxic communities I've seen were always in pvp-focused games.
    And not specifically "combat pvp" alone, could be trading, etc.
    Toxicity doesn't even need the game itself, think on the offline corps backstabbings in EVE, or swatting in general.
    It is a good point. Iirc ATitD trials often introduce competition between players ("who will build the tallest obelisk", "who will be elected"). PU is mostly about economic competition, although players can also work together in forming supply chains or planet wide projects. But even though these games have non-violent "PVP" their playerbases are on average more civil and less toxic. I always believed that PVP is not toxic, people are. You will get toxicity in PVP, PVE, economic competition etc. But combat PVP usually gives the easiest and fastest tools to grief. Which is why usually non-combat games lend to less toxicity, even if they have some form of competition. EVE is special, too high stakes I guess.
    Po_gg
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,614
    edited April 25
    tzervo said:
    I always believed that PVP is not toxic, people are. You will get toxicity in PVP, PVE, economic competition etc. But combat PVP usually gives the easiest and fastest tools to grief. Which is why usually non-combat games lend to less toxicity, even if they have some form of competition. EVE is special, too high stakes I guess.
    I agree, more or less I've said the same since what I was arguing about is the direct causality.

    A regular game ("violent", with combat) can be friendly, or toxic too.

    Likewise, a "non-violent" game can also be friendly, or toxic too - though I agree it'd be tough to give actual examples, besides close calls like the economic competition you've mentioned... Ever, Jane had some pretty toxic gossiping, if that counts :)

    My point was only that the "we want a friendly game without toxicity therefore we build a non-violent game" approach ain't a guarantee for success.
    It sure can help, and might be enough even. But there's no absolute connection between the two, since there are countless examples for other approaches just as successful.

    Similarly, pvp ain't an absolute either - even though I'm a PvE player, hence biased :)
    Pvp might be the easiest and quickest path towards a toxic community, but not a guaranteed one. Pvp ain't necessarily destined to be toxic.
    I can only cite LotRO again, the pvp there -as much as I've seen from it- is pretty civilised, I'd dare to say even respectful.

    Maybe the lore/design helps in it, the chat is separated ("Freeps don't understand black speech").
    When the different sides can throw insults at the enemies, it can quickly fuel the fires of toxicity...

    ed. actually chat can be an important factor as well. W101/P101 also have regulated and filtered chats as I remember...
    tzervo
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 23,068
    tzervo said:
    Po_gg said:
    I believe not the combat itself is the key factor in it, but pvp. The most toxic communities I've seen were always in pvp-focused games.
    And not specifically "combat pvp" alone, could be trading, etc.
    Toxicity doesn't even need the game itself, think on the offline corps backstabbings in EVE, or swatting in general.
    It is a good point. Iirc ATitD trials often introduce competition between players ("who will build the tallest obelisk", "who will be elected"). PU is mostly about economic competition, although players can also work together in forming supply chains or planet wide projects. But even though these games have non-violent "PVP" their playerbases are on average more civil and less toxic. I always believed that PVP is not toxic, people are. You will get toxicity in PVP, PVE, economic competition etc. But combat PVP usually gives the easiest and fastest tools to grief. Which is why usually non-combat games lend to less toxicity, even if they have some form of competition. EVE is special, too high stakes I guess.
    A Tale in the Desert had a different sort of toxic community than any other MMORPG I've ever played.  Because the game was designed to be mostly cooperative, some prominent players were self-appointed enforcers of the common good and would get mad at people who wanted to do what they thought was interesting, rather than follow the crowd and do what everyone else was doing.

    For example, the game has "universities" that unlock skills.  In order to unlock a skill, players have to donate huge amounts of resources at a university.  Once the resources are donated, the skill is unlocked and anyone in the game who wants to can visit the university to acquire the skill for free.  Unlocking new skills is a major way that players make progress in the game.

    But each skill isn't available at just one university.  There are something like a dozen copies of each university scattered across the map.  Having the same skill open in multiple places does give a new player multiple choices as to where to learn it, and in a slow travel game, that helps a little.  But it doesn't really make that much of a difference.

    I never donated to universities, and some people got mad at me for it.  If a given skill is already unlocked in five places, I just didn't see that much marginal benefit to putting in a massive amount of work to unlock it in a sixth place, which is roughly what some other people wanted me to do with my time in the game.

    One player that I had never met even sent me a lengthy sequence of whispers basically telling me to quit the game because I wasn't welcome there.  Apparently my offenses were not donating to universities, not reporting mushroom locations (since I didn't gather them much), and not doing acro.  Basically, he was angry that I wasn't doing what the top players wanted everyone else to do, even though there wasn't much benefit either to me or to the community to doing what they wanted.

    Instead, I did some things that did offer tremendous benefit to the community because the playerbase needed someone to do them and no one was doing them.  I reverse-engineered a number of game mechanics and posted guides on how to use them, most notably cooking.  This allowed anyone to get better stats from cooking after understanding how it worked.  I set up a mushroom market to buy and sell mushrooms, making it easy for others to get the various mushrooms that they needed for cooking in a single transaction.  I was the game's most prominent glass merchant, selling finished glass products in exchange for various other goods.

    It's not that the entire playerbase was toxic.  Most of the players weren't, and appreciated what I did.  But I do think that's the only time that I've ever had a random stranger that I had never met in game send me a lengthy sequence of whispers basically telling me to quit the game, and he was hardly the only one with that sentiment of wanting me to be gone.
    tzervoTheocritusiixviiiix
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,188
    edited April 25
    Quizzical said:

    One player that I had never met even sent me a lengthy sequence of whispers basically telling me to quit the game because I wasn't welcome there.  Apparently my offenses were not donating to universities, not reporting mushroom locations (since I didn't gather them much), and not doing acro.  Basically, he was angry that I wasn't doing what the top players wanted everyone else to do, even though there wasn't much benefit either to me or to the community to doing what they wanted.
    Telling another player to leave a game that is not theirs, aka chasing customers away, heh. Sounds like a juicy reason for muting and reporting and not responding if you ask me. :) If it is just a few players and they cannot really affect you, it's no biggie, you will find such asses in every game invariably.
  • ILLISETILLISET Member UncommonPosts: 113
    Sounds like a bag of shit if you ask me 
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