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PvE and PvP

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Gorwe said:
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:


    Not really, no. A lot of things had pointless Renown(=PvP xp) attached to them, the entire community was super elitist(=PvP or bust)...WAR had more problems than even broken design. Their community was its biggest problem, gatekeeping like that.
    Like what? I don't recall any pure pve activities requiring such things. Maybe there were but I played the game to max level and don't remember needed renown except for pvp.

    edit: never mind, I looked it up and there is a renown trainer for additional abilities/skills. 

    Not sure if they are really necessary if one isn't going to pvp though.

    That's beginning of it. See, it don't increase your PvP related stats, but your BASE stats. Not to mention that things like "dmg stat" and parry(for solo pve) / wounds(for solo pvp) are always super useful.

    Now, that's a late addition to WAR, but much to my chagrin, it is present on RoR. I'd personally just turn it off.

    The fact that you will be ridiculed and ignored(remember: "nobody plays PvE ; real men play PvP") is the cherry on top.

    But yeah. You can (solo) PvE it. Don't change the fact that it's one of the worst put together games I saw. WAR, not RoR. They did the best they could with what they had.

    Ive been playing on RoR since its launch and have met a ton of really great people there , as well as a large amount of very helpful guilds for all levels of players ..

      Your experience is your experience ..

        Ive not seen that side of this community ..

     Of course there may be an occasisional asshole in /Advice for ex.. btu they are swiftly silenced by Admin ..
    GorweTwistedSister77
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    Don't ever argue with a PvPer. It is a waste of saliva, air and time.
    They can't see pass their e-peen and desire to impose themselves on other to have fun.
    Their diet consist of grinded noob and salty tears, all the while claiming they aren't psychos. /shrug

    Any proofs or explanations for this?
    I have played a few PVP games wehre players just killed new players over and over hoping that it would make them quit the game...>What kind of accomplishment is that? Hurting your own game to satisfy your own wickedness?

    Yes, I've seen this too, when PvPers act...odd. Bullying others, camping low lvl players and otherwise driving people away. They're an odd bunch(=mmo pvpers), that's for sure.
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    Scorchien said:
    Gorwe said:
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:


    Not really, no. A lot of things had pointless Renown(=PvP xp) attached to them, the entire community was super elitist(=PvP or bust)...WAR had more problems than even broken design. Their community was its biggest problem, gatekeeping like that.
    Like what? I don't recall any pure pve activities requiring such things. Maybe there were but I played the game to max level and don't remember needed renown except for pvp.

    edit: never mind, I looked it up and there is a renown trainer for additional abilities/skills. 

    Not sure if they are really necessary if one isn't going to pvp though.

    That's beginning of it. See, it don't increase your PvP related stats, but your BASE stats. Not to mention that things like "dmg stat" and parry(for solo pve) / wounds(for solo pvp) are always super useful.

    Now, that's a late addition to WAR, but much to my chagrin, it is present on RoR. I'd personally just turn it off.

    The fact that you will be ridiculed and ignored(remember: "nobody plays PvE ; real men play PvP") is the cherry on top.

    But yeah. You can (solo) PvE it. Don't change the fact that it's one of the worst put together games I saw. WAR, not RoR. They did the best they could with what they had.

    Ive been playing on RoR since its launch and have met a ton of really great people there , as well as a large amount of very helpful guilds for all levels of players ..

      Your experience is your experience ..

        Ive not seen that side of this community ..

     Of course there may be an occasisional asshole in /Advice for ex.. btu they are swiftly silenced by Admin ..

    I never mixed properly with WAR players. Don't know what it is, could be me, could be them, probably is both.
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited April 2021
    AAAMEOW said:
    An alternate question is what is a PvP mmorpg "without PvE"?

    It is hard to even find example for such.  

    It'll be interested if there could be more pure PvP mmorpg made.


    Mortal Online 2 has very little PvE... most for crafting.  They will have a few PvP enabled dungeons.

    I'm actually intrigued by their concept that the PVE and crafting... it is critical to have PVP for the economy.  Yes there is a coming system so that if you are allied to a region, someone else in that region gets murder points if they kill you (unless you are a criminal/murderer).

    But guilds/players will be hired to transport and protect players transporting goods being transported from region to region.  All player driven.  

    And it has building structures... like a survival game.

    Still not endorsing the game, but interesting sandbox concepts.

    I think there is a decent role for crafters in this game who don't want to PvP.  
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,912
    The original topic about gear was much more focused and an interesting discusion.

    But this is quickly devolving into yet another run of the mill, mmorpg,com, PvPers are psychos thread.

    Gankers and carebears choose your side. Regular PvEvP players not wanted here.

    :)
    GorweAlBQuirky[Deleted User]
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Iselin said:
    Gorwe said:

    1. You do a difficult dungeon and feel a sense of pride only for you to get ... gear that requires "PvP levels".

    2. There is a big open world battle, a constant tug of war around ... something and it's so badass, but the reward? Yolo, has PvE stats on it.


    Old games were like that but newer or updated games aren't so your whole "can't coexist" premise is flawed and based on ancient bad design.

    WoW PvE rewards you with PvE loot these days as does their PvP loot for PvP.

    ESO gives you loot drops in PvP that empower you in PvP with modifiers like "while near a keep," "increased damage against players (i.e. not against mobs and NPCs)", etc.

    In PvE they even take it a step further by having 2 versions of PvE loot. The apex loot sets that comes only from raids has extras that buffs you in raids and group dungeons only.  What drops in group dungeons and overland content buffs you anywhere.

    There are some crossovers with generic stats or effects that are good everywhere but in general, the best stuff comes from the activity you do and is most useful there.

    Loot isn't a reason to separate PvE and PvP unless you play an ancient game that hasn't been updated or a new one done by brain-dead developers that haven't clued in on how easy it is to separate it.

    If ESO adhered to this design it would be great, but the reality is that the gear dropped in pve raids is much better than all other gear, which means pvpers have to do that content if they want the most powerful equipment to pvp with.

    There are also many other pve sets, overland or dungeon, that are in general better than the pvp sets. The overland sets and crafted are not much of an issue since you can buy (or craft)  them, but overall I disagree that the best gear for pvp is acquirable through pvp activities - although I'll give you that at least you can run a moderately effective build without raid/dungeon gear.
    ....
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    YashaX said:
    Iselin said:
    Gorwe said:

    1. You do a difficult dungeon and feel a sense of pride only for you to get ... gear that requires "PvP levels".

    2. There is a big open world battle, a constant tug of war around ... something and it's so badass, but the reward? Yolo, has PvE stats on it.


    Old games were like that but newer or updated games aren't so your whole "can't coexist" premise is flawed and based on ancient bad design.

    WoW PvE rewards you with PvE loot these days as does their PvP loot for PvP.

    ESO gives you loot drops in PvP that empower you in PvP with modifiers like "while near a keep," "increased damage against players (i.e. not against mobs and NPCs)", etc.

    In PvE they even take it a step further by having 2 versions of PvE loot. The apex loot sets that comes only from raids has extras that buffs you in raids and group dungeons only.  What drops in group dungeons and overland content buffs you anywhere.

    There are some crossovers with generic stats or effects that are good everywhere but in general, the best stuff comes from the activity you do and is most useful there.

    Loot isn't a reason to separate PvE and PvP unless you play an ancient game that hasn't been updated or a new one done by brain-dead developers that haven't clued in on how easy it is to separate it.

    If ESO adhered to this design it would be great, but the reality is that the gear dropped in pve raids is much better than all other gear, which means pvpers have to do that content if they want the most powerful equipment to pvp with.

    There are also many other pve sets, overland or dungeon, that are in general better than the pvp sets. The overland sets and crafted are not much of an issue since you can buy (or craft)  them, but overall I disagree that the best gear for pvp is acquirable through pvp activities - although I'll give you that at least you can run a moderately effective build without raid/dungeon gear.
    I don't think they do a bad job in that regard. My gripe with that game is simple. They HAD a core philosophy that "resources determine everything" and the entire design hinges on this because the combat system is built around that idea. Of course its completely untrue and unsupported as a significant chunk of your damage comes from free sources like procs and light attacks and even enchants which the cost is irrelevant. Leveraging this free damage is largely what separates a skilled player from a "potato". 

    so the new proc change will change nothing just shift the problem elsewhere because it still costs nothing and still goes against the cornerstone idea of the game. There is literally no one at zos that can apply concept of root cause analysis to the design. Thats why they have been all over the place for so long. 
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • SylvinstarSylvinstar Member UncommonPosts: 156
    edited April 2021
    I'm good with how it was in DAoC back in the day.  I'd add Warhammer Online to that as well.  Performance for large scale battles not good, but I loved both games.  Tome of Knowledge in War was very cool..haven't seen it's equal since.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,912
    edited April 2021
    YashaX said:
    Iselin said:
    Gorwe said:

    1. You do a difficult dungeon and feel a sense of pride only for you to get ... gear that requires "PvP levels".

    2. There is a big open world battle, a constant tug of war around ... something and it's so badass, but the reward? Yolo, has PvE stats on it.


    Old games were like that but newer or updated games aren't so your whole "can't coexist" premise is flawed and based on ancient bad design.

    WoW PvE rewards you with PvE loot these days as does their PvP loot for PvP.

    ESO gives you loot drops in PvP that empower you in PvP with modifiers like "while near a keep," "increased damage against players (i.e. not against mobs and NPCs)", etc.

    In PvE they even take it a step further by having 2 versions of PvE loot. The apex loot sets that comes only from raids has extras that buffs you in raids and group dungeons only.  What drops in group dungeons and overland content buffs you anywhere.

    There are some crossovers with generic stats or effects that are good everywhere but in general, the best stuff comes from the activity you do and is most useful there.

    Loot isn't a reason to separate PvE and PvP unless you play an ancient game that hasn't been updated or a new one done by brain-dead developers that haven't clued in on how easy it is to separate it.

    If ESO adhered to this design it would be great, but the reality is that the gear dropped in pve raids is much better than all other gear, which means pvpers have to do that content if they want the most powerful equipment to pvp with.

    There are also many other pve sets, overland or dungeon, that are in general better than the pvp sets. The overland sets and crafted are not much of an issue since you can buy (or craft)  them, but overall I disagree that the best gear for pvp is acquirable through pvp activities - although I'll give you that at least you can run a moderately effective build without raid/dungeon gear.
    They kind of do adhere to it but with all the constant revision to sets, buffs and nerfs, it's an ever changing landscape. I'm not playing much currently so no idea what the meta of the month is.

    The head and shoulders two piece sets has always been a sore spot for PvPers because they require the head from a specific vet difficulty dungeon run and enough PvE dungeon dailies to have keys to gamble for the shoulders... and then you need to do it all over again when they nerf that one and buff a different one :)

    They did address this a bit with the weekend special vendor in Cyrodiil where you can buy them with gold or alliance points but the sets available for sale are on a rotation so it could be several weeks before you can get the specific one you want.

    It ain't perfect but PvP sets with PvP-only modifiers and PvE sets with trial, arena or dungeon only modifiers are the right way to do it. If they aren't the meta for those activities currently, that's a balancing issue.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    Iselin said:
    The original topic about gear was much more focused and an interesting discusion.

    But this is quickly devolving into yet another run of the mill, mmorpg,com, PvPers are psychos thread.

    Gankers and carebears choose your side. Regular PvEvP players not wanted here.

    :)
    Yes, can we go back to topic instead of shit flinging? Come to think, what causes such a divide?

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    Like most things in life, moderation is key.  A little of both, but not too skewed on way or another.  It's obviously not gonna be 50/50, but it should be 90/10 either
    AlBQuirky

    I self identify as a monkey.

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Rungar said:
    YashaX said:
    Iselin said:
    Gorwe said:

    1. You do a difficult dungeon and feel a sense of pride only for you to get ... gear that requires "PvP levels".

    2. There is a big open world battle, a constant tug of war around ... something and it's so badass, but the reward? Yolo, has PvE stats on it.


    Old games were like that but newer or updated games aren't so your whole "can't coexist" premise is flawed and based on ancient bad design.

    WoW PvE rewards you with PvE loot these days as does their PvP loot for PvP.

    ESO gives you loot drops in PvP that empower you in PvP with modifiers like "while near a keep," "increased damage against players (i.e. not against mobs and NPCs)", etc.

    In PvE they even take it a step further by having 2 versions of PvE loot. The apex loot sets that comes only from raids has extras that buffs you in raids and group dungeons only.  What drops in group dungeons and overland content buffs you anywhere.

    There are some crossovers with generic stats or effects that are good everywhere but in general, the best stuff comes from the activity you do and is most useful there.

    Loot isn't a reason to separate PvE and PvP unless you play an ancient game that hasn't been updated or a new one done by brain-dead developers that haven't clued in on how easy it is to separate it.

    If ESO adhered to this design it would be great, but the reality is that the gear dropped in pve raids is much better than all other gear, which means pvpers have to do that content if they want the most powerful equipment to pvp with.

    There are also many other pve sets, overland or dungeon, that are in general better than the pvp sets. The overland sets and crafted are not much of an issue since you can buy (or craft)  them, but overall I disagree that the best gear for pvp is acquirable through pvp activities - although I'll give you that at least you can run a moderately effective build without raid/dungeon gear.
    I don't think they do a bad job in that regard. My gripe with that game is simple. They HAD a core philosophy that "resources determine everything" and the entire design hinges on this because the combat system is built around that idea. Of course its completely untrue and unsupported as a significant chunk of your damage comes from free sources like procs and light attacks and even enchants which the cost is irrelevant. Leveraging this free damage is largely what separates a skilled player from a "potato". 

    so the new proc change will change nothing just shift the problem elsewhere because it still costs nothing and still goes against the cornerstone idea of the game. There is literally no one at zos that can apply concept of root cause analysis to the design. Thats why they have been all over the place for so long. 

    It has definitely been an amazing couple of months in cyrodiil without having to deal with all the proc sets. I'll probably have to find another game to play when they put them back in.


    ....
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,559
    Iselin said:
    The original topic about gear was much more focused and an interesting discusion.

    But this is quickly devolving into yet another run of the mill, mmorpg,com, PvPers are psychos thread.

    Gankers and carebears choose your side. Regular PvEvP players not wanted here.

    :)

    I think it's because the OP talking about CoExists, which should mean pve and pvp players playing together.  But the way he describe it make it sound like it is a mmorpg containing PvE and PvP but is kept as separate from each other as possible.  

    In fact, much of the complain is he "want" pve and pvp to be as separate as possible.  In which most mmorpg seemed to be designed that way already.  There are rare case that PvP players are forced to PvE or vice versa, but that usually is quite rare.  

    NildenBrainyAlBQuirky
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,473
    edited April 2021
    AAAMEOW said:
    In fact, much of the complain is he "want" pve and pvp to be as separate as possible.  In which most mmorpg seemed to be designed that way already.  There are rare case that PvP players are forced to PvE or vice versa, but that usually is quite rare.  


    What!!!  Over the last 15 years all you see is PVP mmos with gankfest, griefing ... being released over and over most failing.  You rarely even see any kind of PVE only server MMO's until after the forced PVP MMO completely fails then they try to say oh by the way we are going to add a token PVE zone or server.

    If you talking WoW, FFXIV and ESO sure I will give you those.  They keep it pretty much separate which is why they have decent populations.

    Has the industry learned to keep them separate yet?  I doubt it. 

    Amazon certainly did a 180 and changed to PVP toggles. Who knows how they will incentivize PVP and if they are going to force PVEers into PVP to compete.

    Ashes of Creation wont have PVE servers, they said there will not be separate gear types.

    Mortal online 2, PVP gankfest.

    Duel Universe - No pve server

    Bless Online - No pve server



    Which game you think is even going to be released that has PVP that isn't forced onto PVE players.

    I think Pantheon is only one I know of.
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,931
    RvR is the only way to go, I notice the OP had issues with it but it is the best of both worlds. Keep them separate as no system is ever going to perfectly mix the burning oil and calm waters of PvP and PvE. But they both give so much to MMORPG's that one cannot do without the other to my mind.
    RungarGorweBloodaxesAlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    The reason why there is such focus and failure on pvp is that pvp does not require the same content cycling that a pve game does. Developers see this and are constantly striving to make that game where they can cash in monthly without doing the work. 

    This might work ok in other genres but it doesn't work in mmo's and never has. At Scot mentioned the closest your going to get to acceptable is the separate RVR scenario. Games like ESO realize it still doesn't have mass appeal and thus they have the regular ( and expensive) content scheduling. 

    so it really is just lazy thinking on the part of the developers.  I'm pretty tough on zos for their lack of adherence to their own principles and poor problem solving abilities but they are not lazy. They churn out content like clockwork. I also give them props for taking the risk and de-levelling at least part of the game, which I believe literally saved it from total destruction.  
    AlBQuirkyScot
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    Scot said:
    RvR is the only way to go, I notice the OP had issues with it but it is the best of both worlds. Keep them separate as no system is ever going to perfectly mix the burning oil and calm waters of PvP and PvE. But they both give so much to MMORPG's that one cannot do without the other to my mind.

    RvR as in WAR?
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Gorwe said:
    Scot said:
    RvR is the only way to go, I notice the OP had issues with it but it is the best of both worlds. Keep them separate as no system is ever going to perfectly mix the burning oil and calm waters of PvP and PvE. But they both give so much to MMORPG's that one cannot do without the other to my mind.

    RvR as in WAR?
    i imagine he meant eso or maybe daoc. Realm vs Realm
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    Scot said:
    RvR is the only way to go, I notice the OP had issues with it but it is the best of both worlds. Keep them separate as no system is ever going to perfectly mix the burning oil and calm waters of PvP and PvE. But they both give so much to MMORPG's that one cannot do without the other to my mind.

    RvR as in WAR?
    i imagine he meant eso or maybe daoc. Realm vs Realm

    I am not interested in that large scale, excuse the term, crap. Ok, I'm too harsh. It is crap only while leveling and if mixed with other parts. As an endgame, it's perfect. Still...I'm not a fan of large scale, at all. I never once in my life thought to myself "gee, this'd be more interesting with 99 other people". 6v6 or 8v8 is my preferred scale.
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited April 2021
    Gorwe said:
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    Scot said:
    RvR is the only way to go, I notice the OP had issues with it but it is the best of both worlds. Keep them separate as no system is ever going to perfectly mix the burning oil and calm waters of PvP and PvE. But they both give so much to MMORPG's that one cannot do without the other to my mind.

    RvR as in WAR?
    i imagine he meant eso or maybe daoc. Realm vs Realm

    I am not interested in that large scale, excuse the term, crap. Ok, I'm too harsh. It is crap only while leveling and if mixed with other parts. As an endgame, it's perfect. Still...I'm not a fan of large scale, at all. I never once in my life thought to myself "gee, this'd be more interesting with 99 other people". 6v6 or 8v8 is my preferred scale.
    Warhammer RoR has scenarios that are 6v6(ranked) and 12v12 (normal), change every week.  And there is a pug only one.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,387
    Since I'm not a PvP'er, I guess that PvE and PvP can coexist to some degree of "tolerance." Many MMOs have been cited here as "good enough" to players seeking that combination of fun.

    I just don't see it, but I wish they could coexist in some MMORPG. It would be great if I ran into a player who is being a dick and took care of the situation by my own hand (losing OR winning) instead of running to the "chat" or "reporting them", which may never see a resolution. Too many players to my thinking will cheat and look to cause misery instead of fun.

    RvR just isn't for me. The reason as raiding doesn't excite me: Massive Chaos. I don't berate those players who do enjoy those activities.

    Just my thoughts :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    AlBQuirky said:
    Since I'm not a PvP'er, I guess that PvE and PvP can coexist to some degree of "tolerance." Many MMOs have been cited here as "good enough" to players seeking that combination of fun.

    I just don't see it, but I wish they could coexist in some MMORPG. It would be great if I ran into a player who is being a dick and took care of the situation by my own hand (losing OR winning) instead of running to the "chat" or "reporting them", which may never see a resolution. Too many players to my thinking will cheat and look to cause misery instead of fun.

    RvR just isn't for me. The reason as raiding doesn't excite me: Massive Chaos. I don't berate those players who do enjoy those activities.

    Just my thoughts :)
    Agree, like crafting and running dailies are not my cup of tea... a good MMORPG should have a buffet of options.  

    Not just to suit my only playstyle.

    However, if a studio is focused... and states they want to do PVE or PVP... power to them.
    AlBQuirky
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,027
    edited April 2021
    I have yet to see a game where skills for PVE or PVP do not suffer due to being balanced for the sake of one or the other.

    Wont even get into how people that are primarily PVE players dislike being content for PVP players and how a big majority of PVP players want PVE players to be their content over other PVP players.  Obviously this is not the case in PVP centric games with no pve.
    AlBQuirky

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    if i had it my way both pvp and raiding would be a much smaller part of the game and more community driven. 

    I would not mind seeing a game where pvp is limited to battlegrounds and raids limited to community events. This way the game can completely focus on the core game ( open world and various dungeon types). 


    GorweAlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,931
    edited April 2021
    Gorwe said:
    Scot said:
    RvR is the only way to go, I notice the OP had issues with it but it is the best of both worlds. Keep them separate as no system is ever going to perfectly mix the burning oil and calm waters of PvP and PvE. But they both give so much to MMORPG's that one cannot do without the other to my mind.

    RvR as in WAR?
    As in DAOC but I did not think WAR did it that badly?
    AlBQuirky
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