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PvE and PvP

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  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    edited April 2021
    Kyleran said:
    Here in real life I'm a PVE only player, yet there's always an element of risk or chance I might fall victim to unwanted PVP.

    Not an issue for me to play games with similar and for the record there is no place in EVE I ever felt restricted from but I did have to play smart and weigh my actions against the risk.

    As I said, if the stipulation is the PVEer can always be safe than you will need separate rules or world's even, which in that case is really a separate game.

    Real life comparisons makes no sense for a game. Even with that comparison, people that do illegal acts get harsh penalties unlike in games where they get a slap on the wrist.
    Gdemami

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,515
    Bloodaxes said:
    Kyleran said:
    Here in real life I'm a PVE only player, yet there's always an element of risk or chance I might fall victim to unwanted PVP.

    Not an issue for me to play games with similar and for the record there is no place in EVE I ever felt restricted from but I did have to play smart and weigh my actions against the risk.

    As I said, if the stipulation is the PVEer can always be safe than you will need separate rules or world's even, which in that case is really a separate game.

    Real life comparisons makes no sense for a game. Even with that comparison, people that do illegal acts get harsh penalties unlike in games where they get a slap on the wrist.
    Then again, the consequences or losses in a game are actually minimal, so not surprising punishments would be far less severe, right?

    But more importantly, in most games PVPers are encouraged to PVP, unlike real life where it is usually discouraged except in very controlled situations. (Football stadiums, boxing arenas, active war zones, Chicago's South side etc.)




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  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    Kyleran said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    Kyleran said:
    Here in real life I'm a PVE only player, yet there's always an element of risk or chance I might fall victim to unwanted PVP.

    Not an issue for me to play games with similar and for the record there is no place in EVE I ever felt restricted from but I did have to play smart and weigh my actions against the risk.

    As I said, if the stipulation is the PVEer can always be safe than you will need separate rules or world's even, which in that case is really a separate game.

    Real life comparisons makes no sense for a game. Even with that comparison, people that do illegal acts get harsh penalties unlike in games where they get a slap on the wrist.
    Then again, the consequences or losses in a game are actually minimal, so not surprising punishments would be far less severe, right?

    But more importantly, in most games PVPers are encouraged to PVP, unlike real life where it is usually discouraged except in very controlled situations. (Football stadiums, boxing arenas, active war zones, Chicago's South side etc.)
    Yes, but this thread about having both playstyles together. In a PvP game, its obvious people are encouraged to PvP. In PvPvE games, PvP can be discouraged. As I said tough, not hard enough.
    Gdemami

  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    edited April 2021
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 

    Something tells me you'd have hated WAR's guts. PvP and PvE intermixed, steep vertical curve, PvP focus(overall)...

    I'd like some more replies on this topic before I post my thoughts.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Gorwe said:
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 

    Something tells me you'd have hated WAR's guts. PvP and PvE intermixed, steep vertical curve, PvP focus(overall)...

    I'd like some more replies on this topic before I post my thoughts.
    I think i played it a day or so in beta, cant remember but never purchased it. A deeply flawed game. The three games daoc, war and eso are all spawned from the same place with many of the same developers. Daoc crippled by the unwanted insertion of raid content/progression ( TOA), WAR never really got off the ground, and at least ESO kinda learned from their mistakes by character scaling and a more loadout oriented gear system that wasn't reliant on raiding. 
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    edited April 2021
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 

    Something tells me you'd have hated WAR's guts. PvP and PvE intermixed, steep vertical curve, PvP focus(overall)...

    I'd like some more replies on this topic before I post my thoughts.
    I think i played it a day or so in beta, cant remember but never purchased it. A deeply flawed game. The three games daoc, war and eso are all spawned from the same place with many of the same developers. Daoc crippled by the unwanted insertion of raid content/progression ( TOA), WAR never really got off the ground, and at least ESO kinda learned from their mistakes by character scaling and a more loadout oriented gear system that wasn't reliant on raiding. 

    What didn't you like about it, what was "deeply flawed"?
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Cant remember why exactly. Sorry. it was a long time ago and like i said i didnt play much. 
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,454
    tzervo said:
    Brainy said:

    Its pretty much like this in most MMO's that have PVP.  I don't even know a solid PVP game where PVE zones have the advantages over PVP zones.

    They do this to force PVE sheep into PVP zones like fodder.  Its mainly because the PVP part of MMO's is way too niche.  It doesn't have enough players without the PVEers.
    They do this because it is fair: PVP has higher risk and this should be rewarded. Is there any game where PVE is riskier?

    PVE you can find whatever risk you want......Many do not want that risk......IT was like in EQ....To get the best non raid stuff you often had to go pretty far into dungeons.....It took alot of time and some of them were pretty dangerous with a good chance of wiping the group......A game like ESO though with the mob scaling, the risk is not going to be as great, except for a handful of world bosses......PVP you have no option...A player 50 levels above you comes around and you are dead, and relying on players to have some dignity and not kill weaker players is not going to happen.
    AlBQuirky
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    edited April 2021
    Rungar said:
    Cant remember why exactly. Sorry. it was a long time ago and like i said i didnt play much. 

    Don't worry. Your input is appreciated. I agree that it is a deeply flawed game, you can try to patch it, but the entire game needed a redesign imo. The only thing that truly kept it afloat(as long as it did) was Warhammer Fantasy IP. Quite easily the best part of it and the only one that's very hard to recreate. The adventure through the Old World was(or is on RoR)...quite magical. High Pass, Unterbaum, Ulthuan(in general)...
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    I Played War on live to RR 93

      And currently at 83 on RoR , In both cases i mostly ignored the PVE after trying it briefly at launch to get to lvl 10 and unlock the Lakes ..

      Did go into the LOtD when it laucnhed on live as it was PVPVE and was ok ..

         That being said Wars PVE is a horrid mess that should be ignored , a complete shitfest of bugs and exploits ..

      Its terrible and is no reason for it imo ..

      I also ignored the Scenarios having done 0 to RR 83 in RoR and a total of 2 during live .. More shit useless content imo

    All that being said War ROR is a much better version of War than the one that EA shuttered and IMO is the best of all the RvR games and its not even close .. The RvR classes/Lore/Synergys/Lakes/Keeps are superior to anything else offered...

      WaaAaAaGgGgGgHhhHhHhH!!!!!


      DAOC did the best job of mixing the PVE and PVP

     
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,938
    Gorwe said:
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 

    Something tells me you'd have hated WAR's guts. PvP and PvE intermixed, steep vertical curve, PvP focus(overall)...

    I'd like some more replies on this topic before I post my thoughts.
    But in Warhammer you could avoid pvp completely It wasn't intermixed at all unless you wanted it to be.
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 

    Something tells me you'd have hated WAR's guts. PvP and PvE intermixed, steep vertical curve, PvP focus(overall)...

    I'd like some more replies on this topic before I post my thoughts.
    But in Warhammer you could avoid pvp completely It wasn't intermixed at all unless you wanted it to be.

    LOTD was mixed and could not be avoided
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,938
    Scorchien said:
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 

    Something tells me you'd have hated WAR's guts. PvP and PvE intermixed, steep vertical curve, PvP focus(overall)...

    I'd like some more replies on this topic before I post my thoughts.
    But in Warhammer you could avoid pvp completely It wasn't intermixed at all unless you wanted it to be.

    LOTD was mixed and could not be avoided
    LOTD?
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,473
    edited April 2021
    This idea of being ganked by 10 people to get higher resources, saying its risky so you should be rewarded more is a PVP concept.  Its not risky for the 10 people who are ganking.  If someone is out PVEing in PVP zones because PVP zones give higher XP, how is this riskier for the 3 stealthers that jump them when they have low health.

    When you mix PVP/PVE you get games like this.

    When games are full PVE you are rewarded for different behavior like, teamwork, cooperation, strategy, time, character skill, timing, social ability, ability to trade, competing in the marketplace, educating yourself and a bunch of other things.

    Why do we have to accept this concept that ganking risk should be rewarded.  This doesn't even apply to the real world.

    Where are the most profitable companies located? All in safe zones. What about the highest paying jobs, Executives, Finance, Technology, Professional ... Again safe zones. Are there some decent paying jobs in risky environments, a few, mostly illegal ones, but its not exclusive to those.

    These PVP devs have skewed MMO players perception on what is risky and into lawlessness and ganking = highest rewards. If you really want to be realistic, the highest death risk areas should actually be the least rewarding as you cant accumulate wealth if you are dead for real.
    AlBQuirky
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited April 2021
    Sovrath said:
    Scorchien said:
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 

    Something tells me you'd have hated WAR's guts. PvP and PvE intermixed, steep vertical curve, PvP focus(overall)...

    I'd like some more replies on this topic before I post my thoughts.
    But in Warhammer you could avoid pvp completely It wasn't intermixed at all unless you wanted it to be.

    LOTD was mixed and could not be avoided
    LOTD?

    Land of the Dead .. Warhammers Endgame PVPVE large zone containing several dungeon overland missions etc.. ..

      Was Ok , i liked it more for the PVP encounters than the trash PVE that was provided .. Lol every Boss could be exploited .. but thats War ..

     I was/am not there for PVE..
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,938
    Scorchien said:
    Sovrath said:
    Scorchien said:
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 

    Something tells me you'd have hated WAR's guts. PvP and PvE intermixed, steep vertical curve, PvP focus(overall)...

    I'd like some more replies on this topic before I post my thoughts.
    But in Warhammer you could avoid pvp completely It wasn't intermixed at all unless you wanted it to be.

    LOTD was mixed and could not be avoided
    LOTD?

    Land of the Dead .. Warhammers Endgame PVPVE large zone containing several dungeon overland missions etc.. ..

      Was Ok , i liked it more for the PVP encounters than the trash PVE that was provided .. Lol every Boss could be exploited .. but thats War ..

     I was/am not there for PVE..
    Oh yeah, that place. That's pvp/pve so any pure pve people could just leave it.
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    Scorchien said:
    I Played War on live to RR 93

      And currently at 83 on RoR , In both cases i mostly ignored the PVE after trying it briefly at launch to get to lvl 10 and unlock the Lakes ..

      Did go into the LOtD when it laucnhed on live as it was PVPVE and was ok ..

         That being said Wars PVE is a horrid mess that should be ignored , a complete shitfest of bugs and exploits ..

      Its terrible and is no reason for it imo ..

      I also ignored the Scenarios having done 0 to RR 83 in RoR and a total of 2 during live .. More shit useless content imo

    All that being said War ROR is a much better version of War than the one that EA shuttered and IMO is the best of all the RvR games and its not even close .. The RvR classes/Lore/Synergys/Lakes/Keeps are superior to anything else offered...

      WaaAaAaGgGgGgHhhHhHhH!!!!!


      DAOC did the best job of mixing the PVE and PVP

     

    My reason for playing is because there is no other Warhammer Fantasy RPG. Literally none. And I often see this argument: PvE is broken and you can exploit it. "Broken" probably needs to be defined and considering exploits...Mythic were lazy bums and RoR don't have resources for intensive PvE dedication.

    As long as you don't have super high expectations, you will get a nice journey through the Old World. It is quite enjoyable.
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:
    Rungar said:
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?
    These really dont mix. Pvp requires more of a loadout system than a levelling system. Even for pve i like the loadout system better so i would say vertical progressions is complete garbage in every way possible other than single player games. 

    Something tells me you'd have hated WAR's guts. PvP and PvE intermixed, steep vertical curve, PvP focus(overall)...

    I'd like some more replies on this topic before I post my thoughts.
    But in Warhammer you could avoid pvp completely It wasn't intermixed at all unless you wanted it to be.

    Not really, no. A lot of things had pointless Renown(=PvP xp) attached to them, the entire community was super elitist(=PvP or bust)...WAR had more problems than even broken design. Their community was its biggest problem, gatekeeping like that.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    i like pvp but pvp'ers are often their own worst enemy. Same thing with raiders, though i find raiders worse because they will change your favorite game for the worst. At least with the pvpers you can only be ganked by 5 guys or that cheater guy who never gets caught. 
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,938
    edited April 2021
    Gorwe said:


    Not really, no. A lot of things had pointless Renown(=PvP xp) attached to them, the entire community was super elitist(=PvP or bust)...WAR had more problems than even broken design. Their community was its biggest problem, gatekeeping like that.
    Like what? I don't recall any pure pve activities requiring such things. Maybe there were but I played the game to max level and don't remember needed renown except for pvp.

    edit: never mind, I looked it up and there is a renown trainer for additional abilities/skills. 

    Not sure if they are really necessary if one isn't going to pvp though.
    Post edited by Sovrath on
    AlBQuirky
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 847
    edited April 2021
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:


    Not really, no. A lot of things had pointless Renown(=PvP xp) attached to them, the entire community was super elitist(=PvP or bust)...WAR had more problems than even broken design. Their community was its biggest problem, gatekeeping like that.
    Like what? I don't recall any pure pve activities requiring such things. Maybe there were but I played the game to max level and don't remember needed renown except for pvp.

    edit: never mind, I looked it up and there is a renown trainer for additional abilities/skills. 

    Not sure if they are really necessary if one isn't going to pvp though.

    That's beginning of it. See, it don't increase your PvP related stats, but your BASE stats. Not to mention that things like "dmg stat" and parry(for solo pve) / wounds(for solo pvp) are always super useful.

    Now, that's a late addition to WAR, but much to my chagrin, it is present on RoR. I'd personally just turn it off.

    The fact that you will be ridiculed and ignored(remember: "nobody plays PvE ; real men play PvP") is the cherry on top.

    But yeah. You can (solo) PvE it. Don't change the fact that it's one of the worst put together games I saw. WAR, not RoR. They did the best they could with what they had.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,454
    I have played a few PVP games wehre players just killed new players over and over hoping that it would make them quit the game...>What kind of accomplishment is that? Hurting your own game to satisfy your own wickedness?
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,938
    I have played a few PVP games wehre players just killed new players over and over hoping that it would make them quit the game...>What kind of accomplishment is that? Hurting your own game to satisfy your own wickedness?
    It's the ultimate in dorkery.

    There was a guy (I'll just assume it was a guy because I'd actually bet it was a guy) in Lineage 2 who would camp Talking Island which was the new player human area.

    He would kill any and all new players he could because he wanted them to quit so that NC Soft would wake up and "fix their game."

    He should have been sent to his room to think about how ridiculous he was.
    AlBQuirky
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,442
    Gorwe said:
    This neatly brings me to the next point:

    What do you think about mixing PvP and Vertical Progression?

    Mixing vertical progression and PvP is one of the dumbest design mistakes you can make. I could forgive that design mistake 15-20 years ago, those designers were pioneers, experimenting in a space that had no precedent.

    But these days?

    There is simply too much evidence to show that vertical progression and PvP do not mix well, and that putting both in will actively harm the game. To be fair, there is plenty of evidence showing it works badly in a PvE MMORPG too, but the evidence is a bit more obfuscated and we haven't seen alternatives yet (unlike PvP, where there are a ton of horizontal progression PvP games in existence already, just not within the RPG space).



    GorweAlBQuirky
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