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New take on an old penalty

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  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    The other thing about the lack of a suitable death penalty is that it encourages excessive solo play. In combination with a too-safe world  players will never see any value in teaming up with others. Conversely if its too tough, no one will do anything. 

    While I would never force grouping on any player there should be situations where it is simply more efficient for the player seek some help once and a while. Not so much to kill the target but to watch the back. 

    i think the eq1 based death penalty combined with the eq1 Death mobs ( for those that played, the hill giants and griffons for example) were very effective at keeping players on their toes. 

    I dont think theres any need for any kind of loss scenario or debuffs. If the world is sufficiently dangerous the corpse run should be more than plenty. 
    Gdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,480
    No one has really offered up an alternative to the 'corpse run'.  I don't really think developers are trying to think of one, though.  The whole concept of life after death is pretty much fictional.  The 'corpse run' is very bare-bones fiction -- respawn, go and get your stuff.

    What if that fiction were fleshed out a bit?  Instead of the 'respawn' automatically occurring, what if the player had to orchestrate their character's return to the world by negotiating with the gods.  Specifically, there are 4 things a player would need to consider:
    • Recovery of the body.  This might include in-place resurrection or moving to some safe location, such as a holy place or a home location.  It might not always be a good idea to resurrect in the monster's lair. (or stomach).
    • Recovery of the possessions.  People are possessive.  Taking their stuff away will make them feisty.  Give them the choice to recover their grandfather's special sword along with their body, otherwise it becomes a trophy for the victor or strewn on the battlefield for future archaeologists to find (got to keep archaeologists employed somehow).
    • Restoration of the body.  Death usually comes with horrible injuries.  It is pretty important for the gods to remove the injuries or the restoration of life is pointless, you'd just be dead from the injuries again.
    • Restoration of the life.  This returns the character to the player's control.  This is probably something that a single character working alone could do.  Maybe a mass ritual of characters, but most likely a god would have to do this.
    Of course, gods would be most likely to assist characters they favored in life, or somehow convince them to aid them.  They might even have some menial tasks for your ghosts to do to earn favor with the gods, or your friends could pray for your return.

    There.  A bit of fiction to expand on the corpse run concept.  It would require extra developmental effort (ghost state, favor system in life and afterlife, a praying mechanic, etc.)  This would make returning a character to life a much more interesting narrative without the possibility of multiple deaths.  Removing the resurrection function from a single character class (everyone can pray to the gods) could spread the availability/responsibility of resurrection, either friends help out or a do-it-yourself solo effort.



    Po_gg

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Interesting. I would actually save this "part" for the "corpse summons" aspect. For the times when you cant get the corpse back and all your efforts have failed.

    That's when you need to do the favor, or you take the injury, or you just pop back up wherever you were for whatever cost. 

    This way we can get the gameplay value out of it without upsetting players general gameplay. I do think if you combine my corpse run aids with your "resolutions"  ,as long as it was tied to the last ditch corpse summons, I think it would actually be a great little system. 

    Fiction eh?  
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • BrainyBrainy Member RarePosts: 583
    edited April 20
    Scorchien said:
    Brainy said:
    Rungar said:
    I like the way AO did it....Lose the exp up to last save but never a level..>The exp then goes into a pool and is regained slowly. It's not a huge deterrant and you can get back to playing fairly quick.
    I dont like these loss penalties because it seems illogical to me that your character would die, come back and be less experienced somehow. 

    And doing corpse runs is logical to you?  Give me one example in the real world where you seen someone doing a corpse run after they died  :)

    Seriously thou, I am sure someone could come up with dozens or more ways to explain xp loss in a fantasy world.


     When you can

      Give us one example of someone shooting fireballs from there fingertips to fry a goblin

      Or conjuring up an Earth Ellly to battle an orc ..

       Or calling lightning from the skys to rain down upoun your evil cult  foes ..

         Ohh yea Real World does not apply to these things ..

      I never understand when people try to apply Real World mechaiics to A Fantasy Game .. Or any Game for that matter

      The reason most people play games is to escape the Real World for a time ..
    Think you just misread my entire post here.  You made my entire point with your tirade thx.  The entire point is how someone can hold a fantasy game to account for being illogical and unreal as to XP loss on death, but then turn around and say corpse runs on death are logical.
    Gdemami
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    theres a difference between real and logical.  Something can be completely fabricated but be logical and things can be completely real but not logical.

    Science is logical but is often not true.  
    Gdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,174
    Rungar said:
    theres a difference between real and logical.  Something can be completely fabricated but be logical and things can be completely real but not logical.

    Science is logical but is often not true.  
    Science is more true than any othet concept there is. The strength of science is in the method, the most logical method of obtaining and evaluating information, often times leads to correct truths.

    What concept is superior to the scientific method?
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Assuming you applied it. If you did there would be alot less "science" going around.  

    like everything else, science is still subject to lies, bias, and incompetence. 

    the worst cult ever. 
    BrainyGdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,174
    Rungar said:
    Assuming you applied it. If you did there would be alot less "science" going around.  

    like everything else, science is still subject to lies, bias, and incompetence. 

    the worst cult ever. 
    Yes, the question is, what is better?

    Also bro, you a Q or Qanon redpilled person? Here to convert the normies while you worship GEOTUS?
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    edited April 21
    Its not a question of better but of purpose. Sure the scientific method is good, I like it, and I used to be a scientist. 

    the problem is that much of science has been corrupted, particularly with anything that is public consumption. 

    I see that I triggered you and I shouldn't of done that so if you have anything to say regarding the death penalty I encourage you to do so. 
    BrainyGdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • SandmanjwSandmanjw Member RarePosts: 388
    Why have either or?

    Just add a option like hardcore for those that want to corpse run or whatever the added time waster is.

    If a dev wants it in the game, and has worries about turning off players, having options is always the way to go. 

    As to one of my favorites, (and i hate death penalties/corpse runs), was in a very old game called LOK (Legends of Kesmai) 

    http://archive.legendsofkesmai.com/lok/lands/praetoseba.htm

    That link explains it interesting read.
    BrainyGdemami
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,296
    Sandmanjw said:
    Why have either or?

    Just add a option like hardcore for those that want to corpse run or whatever the added time waster is.

    If a dev wants it in the game, and has worries about turning off players, having options is always the way to go. 

    As to one of my favorites, (and i hate death penalties/corpse runs), was in a very old game called LOK (Legends of Kesmai) 

    http://archive.legendsofkesmai.com/lok/lands/praetoseba.htm

    That link explains it interesting read.

    If you give players options they will always take the easiest path......Many don't even want to bother with the game, just give them a max level character with the best raid gear and everything will be just fine. That's why MOBAs and Battle Royals are so popular because the players don't have to work on their character.
    Gdemami
  • SandmanjwSandmanjw Member RarePosts: 388
    Sandmanjw said:
    Why have either or?

    Just add a option like hardcore for those that want to corpse run or whatever the added time waster is.

    If a dev wants it in the game, and has worries about turning off players, having options is always the way to go. 

    As to one of my favorites, (and i hate death penalties/corpse runs), was in a very old game called LOK (Legends of Kesmai) 

    http://archive.legendsofkesmai.com/lok/lands/praetoseba.htm

    That link explains it interesting read.

    If you give players options they will always take the easiest path......Many don't even want to bother with the game, just give them a max level character with the best raid gear and everything will be just fine. That's why MOBAs and Battle Royals are so popular because the players don't have to work on their character.
    No....the easiest option is to just not buy/try the game at all if it has things in it people do not like to deal with....
    Brainy
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,614
    Mendel said:
    What if that fiction were fleshed out a bit?  Instead of the 'respawn' automatically occurring, what if the player had to orchestrate their character's return to the world by negotiating with the gods.
    [..]
    It would require extra developmental effort (ghost state, favor system in life and afterlife, a praying mechanic, etc.)  This would make returning a character to life a much more interesting narrative without the possibility of multiple deaths. 
    TSW had a "ghost state", though not as a penalty but as an actual game mechanic. Players could go back and forth between "death" (anima form) and "alive" at will, any time. Some puzzles or tasks especially required to go to the anima world.


    The god negotion is an interesting concept, Wizardry Online comes to mind, with its dreaded permadeath... which I'm certain has taken part of the game's early demise.
    Nevertheless, it had pretty much of what you've listed.

    In Wizardry there was a ghost state, after death players had to travel to the nearest "shrine" (don't remember the actual name of the statues...), where they had to "negotiate with the gods" so to speak, asking for a resurrect. 

    Players could make offerings or use blessed items to raise the chance of a successful resurrect, but unless they could tip the scale - a literal in-game scale, called scale of souls - up to 100%, the chance of failure was always lurking in the shadow of the "god" RNG.
    And if you did a resurrect attempt at 95%, but unfortunately fell into that 5% of fail, it was permadeath. Tough luck sport, you just lost everything, go and make a new character.

    The menial tasks in ghost form was kinda there too, during the route back to the nearest statue players had to avoid monsters roaming in the ghost world, otherwise they've lost precious amounts of survival chances later at the scales.

    Friends, that was an option too, they could pick up the corpse and carry to the temple for a safe revive. Or, not-so-much friends could rob the corpse...
    Mendel
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Im ok with a little more complex requirements but it cant be everytime i die. It will get old really quickly. That's why I would rather tie the more complex options to the corpse summons. 

    so in the end you choose the right gameplay aid for you to get your corpse and if that doesnt work out ( and 99% of the time it will) you get the enhanced gameplay version. 

    In my worlds death might come a little more frequently as the world would be dangerous again, so it would be worthwhile to flesh out the system rather than just tack something on for the sake of having something. 


    .33 of a second to midnight
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,933
    I don't have a preferred death penalty. I'd rather not have any penalty but I feel that death penalties are an opportunity to interact with other players. Relying on them and thereby forming relationships to enable corpse recovery.

    This idea is draconian and won't be tolerated any more. I believe even in P99 where you still have corpse recovery all the bodies turn up outside Commonlands after 2 weeks.

    A death mechanic has to also create an opportunity for more participation and help from other players. This is however something that may be resisted heavily by and large by players in most current MMORPGs. Any mechanic that is in a F2P game will be ripe for exploitation and monetization. If you buy this sacred stone your death effects will disappear within 2 minutes instead 30 minutes.

    I am all for good death mechanics but if they take too much time most people will skip the game.
    Chamber of Chains
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    cheyane said:
    I don't have a preferred death penalty. I'd rather not have any penalty but I feel that death penalties are an opportunity to interact with other players. Relying on them and thereby forming relationships to enable corpse recovery.

    This idea is draconian and won't be tolerated any more. I believe even in P99 where you still have corpse recovery all the bodies turn up outside Commonlands after 2 weeks.

    A death mechanic has to also create an opportunity for more participation and help from other players. This is however something that may be resisted heavily by and large by players in most current MMORPGs. Any mechanic that is in a F2P game will be ripe for exploitation and monetization. If you buy this sacred stone your death effects will disappear within 2 minutes instead 30 minutes.

    I am all for good death mechanics but if they take too much time most people will skip the game.
    That's why it has to be in the summoning aspect which would be an extremely rare event. At some point if you want depth in your game you have to flesh out each and every system to squeeze the maximum gameplay out of each one.

    i dont think making someone wait 2 weeks is a great idea at all if they couldnt get their corpse. I would have at least 4 methods to get it back beyond the corpse run itself just to provide options since each player is different. 

    so if I have 8 findable 'aids" and 4 "cant get it back" summoning options I think I have fulfilled the depth aspect of this particular system.  
    Gdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,174
    Rungar said:
    Its not a question of better but of purpose. Sure the scientific method is good, I like it, and I used to be a scientist. 

    the problem is that much of science has been corrupted, particularly with anything that is public consumption. 

    I see that I triggered you and I shouldn't of done that so if you have anything to say regarding the death penalty I encourage you to do so. 
    I already gave mu opinion to death penalty earlier. 

    Getting back to science, anything touched by humans gets corrupted, there is ton of science that isnt corrupted and the scientific method subtracted by human corruption is better than any other concept subtracted by human corruption.

    Science is what essentially made America great and medicine and engineering are predicated on science and they have been very successful.

    You actually triggered me with one of your posts last week, but i didnt respond this way, until your most recent post.


    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    edited April 22
    successful at what? America is a disaster. Destroyed from the inside and everything that was built has been stolen and shipped out by people that have mastered the science of control. 

    people are sicker than ever because you keep taking medicine instead of changing your ways. They get rich while you get sicker. 
    people are lazier than ever because they dont have to do anything. Your apathy gives them control.
    people are dumber than ever because they dont need to use their minds anymore. Your stupidity will make you believe anything they say. 

    science has been leveraged to track you, control you, make you sick, corrupt you, deceive you and ultimately destroy you. 

    When was the last time something was made that was actually beneficial to your wellbeing? Its a religion like any other. A cult.

    I dont expect you to understand. Science without wisdom is destruction and science has no inherent wisdom. 

    it's a tool, not a path.


    Post edited by Rungar on
    Gdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,480
    Rungar said:
    Interesting. I would actually save this "part" for the "corpse summons" aspect. For the times when you cant get the corpse back and all your efforts have failed.

    That's when you need to do the favor, or you take the injury, or you just pop back up wherever you were for whatever cost. 

    This way we can get the gameplay value out of it without upsetting players general gameplay. I do think if you combine my corpse run aids with your "resolutions"  ,as long as it was tied to the last ditch corpse summons, I think it would actually be a great little system. 

    Fiction eh?  

    I think you missed the basic point; my idea would replace a corpse run, not supplement it.  In my scheme, when the character died, he wouldn't automatically respawn in the main game world, but a 'purgatory' type place.  Since the character would not be in the world, they would not be able to return to where they died and manually recover themselves.  The gods (NPC mechanisms) would have to return them to life.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Mendel said:
    Rungar said:
    Interesting. I would actually save this "part" for the "corpse summons" aspect. For the times when you cant get the corpse back and all your efforts have failed.

    That's when you need to do the favor, or you take the injury, or you just pop back up wherever you were for whatever cost. 

    This way we can get the gameplay value out of it without upsetting players general gameplay. I do think if you combine my corpse run aids with your "resolutions"  ,as long as it was tied to the last ditch corpse summons, I think it would actually be a great little system. 

    Fiction eh?  

    I think you missed the basic point; my idea would replace a corpse run, not supplement it.  In my scheme, when the character died, he wouldn't automatically respawn in the main game world, but a 'purgatory' type place.  Since the character would not be in the world, they would not be able to return to where they died and manually recover themselves.  The gods (NPC mechanisms) would have to return them to life.



    i understand that i just didnt think it could work because it would become far to annoying to players. I do think it is a good idea and has a place but im not sure how you could implement it any other way without burning players out. 

    after three deaths youll be completely burned out on it. If its every now and then I cant see any issue with it and would actually add to the game. 
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,561
    edited April 22
    I'd like to see a game take the mmo corpse run mechanic and merge it with the realm swapping of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver to create new gameplay.

    When you die you enter a comatose state, your spirit respawn in the realm of the dead and you have a different set of progression down there that is linked to your global character progression so you don't waste time in there. But no matter what activities you do down there, your main objective is to find a way to revive and return to the realm of the living before you run out of time.

    For the sake of this example let's say you have 24 hours to leave the realm of the dead (if you log out the timer stops until you log back in), and if you don't leave in 24 hours it's permadeath (or lose levels or items at the devs discretion). You are not supossed to remain in the dead realm, it is an opportunity to get you back to the living. There is no permadeath or penalty in the living world, it only happens in the dead realm if you don't leave it in time.

    EDIT: there could be a rare item in game that upon use, it lets you cheat death once, but i don't trust companies and they would sell that shit in a cash shop.

    tzervo




  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    I'd like to see a game take the mmo corpse run mechanic and merge it with the realm swapping of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver to create new gameplay.

    When you die you enter a comatose state, your spirit respawn in the realm of the dead and you have a different set of progression down there that is linked to your global character progression so you don't waste time in there. But no matter what activities you do down there, your main objective is to find a way to revive and return to the realm of the living before you run out of time.

    For the sake of this example let's say you have 24 hours to leave the realm of the dead (if you log out the timer stops until you log back in), and if you don't leave in 24 hours it's permadeath (or lose levels or items at the devs discretion). You are not supossed to remain in the dead realm, it is an opportunity to get you back to the living. There is no permadeath or penalty in the living world, it only happens in the dead realm if you don't leave it in time.

    EDIT: there could be a rare item in game that upon use, it lets you cheat death once, but i don't trust companies and they would sell that shit in a cash shop.

    This is similar to Mendels idea. I'm not against it but how well do you think it would fare if you had to do this every time? These types of interesting scenarios have to be reserved for very occasional use such as you not being able to retrieve your stuff. Wow already has this i believe but theres nothing to it. Its basically a risk free corpse run. 

    most of the time your going to want to keep rolling, and that's how we got to the no penalty mmo like eso.  You have to be extremely careful when introducing a penalty because players are generally very fickle and thin skinned these days. Theres not but one viking in a thousand.
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,689
    Rungar said:
    I'd like to see a game take the mmo corpse run mechanic and merge it with the realm swapping of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver to create new gameplay.

    When you die you enter a comatose state, your spirit respawn in the realm of the dead and you have a different set of progression down there that is linked to your global character progression so you don't waste time in there. But no matter what activities you do down there, your main objective is to find a way to revive and return to the realm of the living before you run out of time.

    For the sake of this example let's say you have 24 hours to leave the realm of the dead (if you log out the timer stops until you log back in), and if you don't leave in 24 hours it's permadeath (or lose levels or items at the devs discretion). You are not supossed to remain in the dead realm, it is an opportunity to get you back to the living. There is no permadeath or penalty in the living world, it only happens in the dead realm if you don't leave it in time.

    EDIT: there could be a rare item in game that upon use, it lets you cheat death once, but i don't trust companies and they would sell that shit in a cash shop.

    This is similar to Mendels idea. I'm not against it but how well do you think it would fare if you had to do this every time? These types of interesting scenarios have to be reserved for very occasional use such as you not being able to retrieve your stuff. Wow already has this i believe but theres nothing to it. Its basically a risk free corpse run. 

    most of the time your going to want to keep rolling, and that's how we got to the no penalty mmo like eso.  You have to be extremely careful when introducing a penalty because players are generally very fickle and thin skinned these days. Theres not but one viking in a thousand.
    Also, one issue I see is if a player is in the middle of a raid or a siege or some group activity where they fall and suddenly they can't rejoin the activity because they have this "other" thing they have to do.

    So while I'm all for adding a completely different way for a player to navigate their return to "life" it doesn't really work for large group activities.
    Rungar
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    I also see that the corpse run penalty is primarily a pve mechanic to give you the "sense of danger" that has been lost in mmo's. I generally don't think this is necessary for pvp because the danger is much higher overall. 

    For pvp a different penalty is more reasonable to prevent you from constantly throwing yourself at the enemy since it already has the sense of danger built into it. 
    Gdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,702
    Rungar said:
    Brainy said:
    What I find interesting about these Corpse runs suggestions, is to me its a lot like these devs trying to stop griefing.  They come up with all these anti-grief ideas, they twist themselves into pretzels trying to allow people to grief but in a limited form.  All that happens is they alienate a huge percentage of their casual player base.

    Meanwhile if they remove griefing as a feature, 95+ percent of the population is happy.

    So can someone like myself that thinks corpse runs make games trivial, deal with some of you suggestions.  Yes/Maybe, I can deal with it, but seems like a waste of time to me.  I would rather them just remove it, and make people like you deal with it.
    Clearly you like a more streamlined game than I do. I like characters having to eat, rest, corpse runs, dark dangerous nights etc. To me all these "time wasters" add depth to the game. 
    They call those survival games which clearly there's a market for, just not me.


    MendelBrainy

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