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Raph Koster Talks Player Cynicism, Retention And Thinking Long-term In New Blog Post | MMORPG.com

SystemSystem Member UncommonPosts: 7,110

imageRaph Koster Talks Player Cynicism, Retention And Thinking Long-term In New Blog Post | MMORPG.com

Raph Koster from Playable Worlds is back with another Riffs by Raph, this time tackling the issues of player retention, building a relationship with players and touching on cynicism by MMO players.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 9,191
    edited April 16
    "One of the saddest things about the way the game industry has gone is the level of distrust and cynicism that has grown among players. And I certainly won’t pretend that the years of accumulated disappointment can be wiped away with a few blog posts from a new studio with no game to show yet. You have heard plenty of lofty promises before."

    He must be reading delete's threads lol. Anyway I kinda think he gets it, it's just what to do about it.
    SovrathBruceYeeMendelfrancis_baudGdemamiTacticalZombeh
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • BrotherMaynardBrotherMaynard Member RarePosts: 252
    edited April 16
    "But the ruleset isn’t really any different. As designers, we make sure to build in more rewards and pats on the head for you as you keep running variations on a theme. And it’s engaging, sure. You are retained until you figure out that you’re actually on a treadmill of repetitive activities. So we keep finding new skins to put on the same bones, so that it feels fresh."


    And that's a major part of the problem. Repetition can be ok, if the basic gameplay is fun and engaging and if the change happens around us. Like in the real world.

    Most of us do very repetitive things each day - there's no impressario standing behind our backs and giving us a new fun activity every day. But the world is fully dynamic and stimulates our senses and minds. We never know what crazy, interesting, dangerous or horrifying thing we'll come across during our day, either in person, through our contacts or media.

    There are many extremely repetitive games that are insanely fun and addictive. Like Warframe, which is fundamentally an extremely grindy and repetitive game. But its core is also great fun and the combat, abilities, gunplay, parkour are done so well that people gladly do those repetitive activities for the sheer fun of it.

    If you built a world around such fun core gameplay, a world that would provide the necessary stimuli by itself, you'd nail it. A world that is as close to fully dynamic as possible, while also unified and coherent in all its (geographical) parts and systems, with events and in-game development scaling from small, local ones, to world-spanning. The world itself must provide entertainment and engagement, while gameplay provides fun and satisfaction. A big task, no doubt, but worth it in the end.

    If you do it the other way around and try to be the impressario desperately juggling circus activities from one day to the next trying to keep players entertained, you will end up a nervous wreck with an empty auditorium. Except for that one guy who fell asleep and that dear lady who thinks you're such a lovely boy for keeping her company.


    Torvalkilunfrancis_baudtzervoGdemamiNeanderthal
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 456
    making a game and building a world is not the same task. A game is meant to be finished, a world is not. 

    all the systems should be built accordingly. 




    GdemamiScot
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,530

    Tiller said:

    "One of the saddest things about the way the game industry has gone is the level of distrust and cynicism that has grown among players. And I certainly won’t pretend that the years of accumulated disappointment can be wiped away with a few blog posts from a new studio with no game to show yet. You have heard plenty of lofty promises before."



    He must be reading delete's threads lol. Anyway I kinda think he gets it, it's just what to do about it.



    or he is not that much of a dumbass to think everything he does and his promises should be taken by face value, and can read over the internet not only in ONE forum.

    distrust over company are growing for years and its over the whole internet, even worse is companys who know only reason they game survive or are any good is because the mod community but love to ignore that and lie saying it all because of how "creative" they are

    remember all bethesda games are playable because of mods, cyberpunk atrocious driving was lessened by modders, 3rd person too since some don't like, modders did this
    Gdemami
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,453
    "But the ruleset isn’t really any different. As designers, we make sure to build in more rewards and pats on the head for you as you keep running variations on a theme. And it’s engaging, sure. You are retained until you figure out that you’re actually on a treadmill of repetitive activities. So we keep finding new skins to put on the same bones, so that it feels fresh."

    This is where I am less convinced.  Raph sees that there is a problem there, but the best solution from the business standpoint (cheapest, easiest to implement) may simply to put in a 'magic button' that causes this particular game world to increase the mobs HP by 5% and automagically rotate the primary skin color of every mob.  That becomes a solution that really doesn't address the problem.

    I think the real way to combat boredom and increase retention is through dynamic content.  If the world and it's inhabitants are unpredictable, it appears as if the world isn't static.  If the world is too unpredictable, it can equally drive players away.  I think the better solution is a 'magic button' that shifts mob behavior.

    My solution along these lines was to build a developer's interface that operated like a high level RTS-like system to allow company personnel (adversarial managers) to control mobs (and groups of mobs) in a specific game world.  This way, it would be relatively easy to script events and replicate them across multiple servers.  Instead of an AI solution, I'd have actual people responsible for creating and running these events, much like a pnp DM.  An AI solution would be better, but it was my compromise between practicality and functionality.

    The typical approach to variable and unpredictable action in the MMORPG sphere has always been to introduce PvP into the game.  That encourages everyone to engage in PvP behavior regardless of their preference.  It eschews the development of expensive group-goal setting AI, relying on players to provide the 'plot driving decisions for others.  In other words, players create (and become) content for other players.  That really does nothing for a dedicated PvE player.



    francis_baudGdemamiBrainy

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,271
    Players are definitely more difficult to please now than they were 20 years ago. Back then, we played EQ and AO and no one complained about the graphics. Even UO had alot of people and the graphics were bad there.
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 9,191
    edited April 16




    Tiller said:


    "One of the saddest things about the way the game industry has gone is the level of distrust and cynicism that has grown among players. And I certainly won’t pretend that the years of accumulated disappointment can be wiped away with a few blog posts from a new studio with no game to show yet. You have heard plenty of lofty promises before."





    He must be reading delete's threads lol. Anyway I kinda think he gets it, it's just what to do about it.






    or he is not that much of a dumbass to think everything he does and his promises should be taken by face value, and can read over the internet not only in ONE forum.



    distrust over company are growing for years and its over the whole internet, even worse is companys who know only reason they game survive or are any good is because the mod community but love to ignore that and lie saying it all because of how "creative" they are



    remember all bethesda games are playable because of mods, cyberpunk atrocious driving was lessened by modders, 3rd person too since some don't like, modders did this



    bruh...it was a joke. People are harder to please and stuff that was impressive at the time may be less now. I have a bunch of older early 2000s games I break out from time to time thinking, man this game was great back in the day, only to find they really aren't that great now and feel dated. I do think there are some systems that are just too old to make a return to mainstream, like perma-death, corpse runs, player looting ect to name a few.
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,016
    Building a game with something for everyone is what WoW is. Why is it important to support multiple avenues for different players in the same game, other than revenue? You could say to "build a diverse community" but the people who actually want/enjoy community based games are a niche market these days. It's not 1-2mil nerds in 2001 anymore, its hundreds of millions of people from all walks of life now.

    I miss the days of player dependency on others (ala SWG like Raph designed) but are there even enough people who want that anymore to support a full fledged game?
  • SylvinstarSylvinstar Member UncommonPosts: 110

    Tiller said:








    Tiller said:



    "One of the saddest things about the way the game industry has gone is the level of distrust and cynicism that has grown among players. And I certainly won’t pretend that the years of accumulated disappointment can be wiped away with a few blog posts from a new studio with no game to show yet. You have heard plenty of lofty promises before."







    He must be reading delete's threads lol. Anyway I kinda think he gets it, it's just what to do about it.









    or he is not that much of a dumbass to think everything he does and his promises should be taken by face value, and can read over the internet not only in ONE forum.





    distrust over company are growing for years and its over the whole internet, even worse is companys who know only reason they game survive or are any good is because the mod community but love to ignore that and lie saying it all because of how "creative" they are





    remember all bethesda games are playable because of mods, cyberpunk atrocious driving was lessened by modders, 3rd person too since some don't like, modders did this






    bruh...it was a joke. People are harder to please and stuff that was impressive at the time may be less now. I have a bunch of older early 2000s games I break out from time to time thinking, man this game was great back in the day, only to find they really aren't that great now and feel dated. I do think there are some systems that are just too old to make a return to mainstream, like perma-death, corpse runs, player looting ect to name a few.



    Went back to a few of my old favorites and it was a terrible experience. I remember thinking on one in particular "how did I ever think this was fun".

    Guess it depends a bit on the game and how things are implemented. Some newer games can use old-school elements if they are implemented well. I've been playing co-op through Valheim and loving the challenge and sense of tangible danger as a result of the corpse run/skill loss death penalties. Game has a lot of old school flavor, but I feel like it's tuned to the appropriate level for me.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,882
    edited April 16
    Well for the past 15 years those "Multiple Avenues" have been turned into monetization.
    When i make a statement i take into account what is going on in the gaming industry and not just spewing out fanbois nonsense.

    Survival games have given us the ability to game OUR way in an open world.They do NOT do what the mmorpg's have been doing which is sell houses,sell pets,sell mounts etc etc.

    So we can look at Valheim or my old fave game Atlas which i played rigorously for 2 years straight and we get ALL of the package with NO added monetization,no subscription,no cash shops.
    Raph mentions "retention"well the most populated mmorpg has long been WOW and i want NOTHING to do with ANY of Wow's design.

    Wow has absolutely NOTHING in common with survival games,Atlas for example does EVERYTHING better than Wow,better pets,better mounts,better housing,better open world.
    Wow tagain i am using this example because it is the most popular ,most populated has you pay an ongoing subscription,pay to get pets,pay to get mounts.
    EVERY single last asset made for Atlas or ARK or Valheim comes with your one time purchase,NO added costs.

    So if Raph is referring o making a game that accomplishes what Wow has done,he is on course to making a terrible mmorpg.There are two sides the gamer and the business,guess which side couldn't care less about how much money the other side makes.

    I can again use Valheim as an example,retention,WHO CARES?Most people play/ed solo and most others were simply playing with friends,so why we would care about retention,WHO or what does retention actually favor>>the business>>>$$$.
    With Raph talk is cheap,he loves to talk about it but he has NEVER done it,he has never made the true rpg I and others want to play.

    Open worlds,no added monetization,no hand holding or gaited gameplay,ECO systems,Biomes,true water zones,ship building,house building,ports,defense bases,this is all new wit h survival games,mmorpg's are still stuck in the 90's.

    Rungar

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,564
    Getting philosophical for a moment, maybe its best that they don't create 'worlds' anymore. Keep in mind, there was a large chunk of players that tried to use these 'worlds' as either a means for a 'second life' or even go as far as to replace their current 'life.' I'm sure there are old gamers who've seen the 'drama' of people attempting to leave their real responsibilities behind to pursue something via the fantasy world and even several who low-key tried to use these 'worlds' as dating apps. I guess in a weird sense, de-valuing power and 'prestige' in a game forces some people to accept who they really are instead of trying to create multiple personas that they will try to utilize to further escape reality. There will always be those that continue to try, but this really only works if the community determines what is important, which seems to be more vanity focused over the past few years. which in-term is entirely subjective in regards to importance.
    BruceYeeTorvalGdemamiGreenSage39
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,248
    Albatroes said:
    Getting philosophical for a moment, maybe its best that they don't create 'worlds' anymore. Keep in mind, there was a large chunk of players that tried to use these 'worlds' as either a means for a 'second life' or even go as far as to replace their current 'life.' I'm sure there are old gamers who've seen the 'drama' of people attempting to leave their real responsibilities behind to pursue something via the fantasy world and even several who low-key tried to use these 'worlds' as dating apps. I guess in a weird sense, de-valuing power and 'prestige' in a game forces some people to accept who they really are instead of trying to create multiple personas that they will try to utilize to further escape reality. There will always be those that continue to try, but this really only works if the community determines what is important, which seems to be more vanity focused over the past few years. which in-term is entirely subjective in regards to importance.

    This is a really good point. I think we consider the idea of creating worlds from the perspective of a young and inviting internet when MMO worlds were new. Our online interactions have devolved to the point where I'm not confident it's even possible to create a positive community anymore.

    Right now society outside of games has become more tribalistic, insular, and cliquish. How is a positive community supposed to grow in that sort of environment. It seems the deeper these people dive into their alternate personas and virtual reality cliques the more aggressive they become to anything that disturbs their world. I can't think of any "community driven" mmo right now that doesn't have this problem.

    I'm curious how Playable Worlds plans on creating a virtual world that isn't poisoned with this problem?
    GdemamiTacticalZombeh
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,520
    edited April 17
    "One of the saddest things about the way the game industry has gone is the level of distrust and cynicism that has grown among players. And I certainly won’t pretend that the years of accumulated disappointment can be wiped away with a few blog posts from a new studio with no game to show yet. You have heard plenty of lofty promises before."

    I don't think that distrust and cynicism are related as much to just disappointment as Raph thinks it is.

    Sure, if you look forward to games you think will be fun and they turn out not to be, that's disappointing and if it happens to you often enough, that may lead to some mistrust and cynicism.

    But gaming has gone way beyond that to the point that there are many passing themselves off as game publishers, studios or developers that are little more than fly-by-night con men. con studios and con publishers.

    These are not isolated cases and they represent a significant portion of gaming. It also isn't only fringe developers like Titov and Walsh but includes large studios like EA who send one of their lawyers to London to say to a parliamentary committee that they don't call them loot boxes but surprise mechanics.

    There's a lot more required than just making a good game to regain the lost trust. How about developers, instead of closing ranks, call out the scams, the cons and the bullshit that some in their ranks are guilty of. In short, police yourselves and distance yourselves from the bullshit if you want our trust.


    GdemamiScot
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,004
    edited April 17
    I think in every article he has done on here we talked about the cynicism that has set in, I think he got the message. But indeed I don't think you would have to cast far into other gaming communities to realise that it has become entrenched.

    "The reason why businesspeople need to use other words is because “fun” isn’t particularly measurable. For one thing, it’s really different for different people."

    Well I mentioned this in a post the other day so I think a lot of us realise this is the case, it is just that it is easy to talk about gameplay in simplistic terms, we all do it.


    Torval said:


    Albatroes said:

    Getting philosophical for a moment, maybe its best that they don't create 'worlds' anymore. Keep in mind, there was a large chunk of players that tried to use these 'worlds' as either a means for a 'second life' or even go as far as to replace their current 'life.' I'm sure there are old gamers who've seen the 'drama' of people attempting to leave their real responsibilities behind to pursue something via the fantasy world and even several who low-key tried to use these 'worlds' as dating apps. I guess in a weird sense, de-valuing power and 'prestige' in a game forces some people to accept who they really are instead of trying to create multiple personas that they will try to utilize to further escape reality. There will always be those that continue to try, but this really only works if the community determines what is important, which seems to be more vanity focused over the past few years. which in-term is entirely subjective in regards to importance.



    This is a really good point. I think we consider the idea of creating worlds from the perspective of a young and inviting internet when MMO worlds were new. Our online interactions have devolved to the point where I'm not confident it's even possible to create a positive community anymore.

    Right now society outside of games has become more tribalistic, insular, and cliquish. How is a positive community supposed to grow in that sort of environment. It seems the deeper these people dive into their alternate personas and virtual reality cliques the more aggressive they become to anything that disturbs their world. I can't think of any "community driven" mmo right now that doesn't have this problem.

    I'm curious how Playable Worlds plans on creating a virtual world that isn't poisoned with this problem?



    I really do not agree here, the failings of society should not stop us trying to create virtual societies. Yes there will be issues, big issues, but that comes with being human. Would you say we should not face up to the challenges our society has? I think I know you well enough that you would never say that, so we need to face up to the challenges any virtual society will have. We will no doubt do as badly doing that as we do in real life, but we still live here don't we?
    Gdemami
  • GreenSage39GreenSage39 Member UncommonPosts: 144
    Okay. Collect the major talking points from this article and you get a real feel what the game industry thinks of the overly mental gamers. Lol. It's like they view gamers as little puppies. Aww.

    XD
    BruceYee
  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,765
    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

    Remember your ABC's, Always Be Casting! - Preheat 2021

    Currently Playing; WOW, SWG:L

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 456
    Tiller said:




    Tiller said:


    "One of the saddest things about the way the game industry has gone is the level of distrust and cynicism that has grown among players. And I certainly won’t pretend that the years of accumulated disappointment can be wiped away with a few blog posts from a new studio with no game to show yet. You have heard plenty of lofty promises before."





    He must be reading delete's threads lol. Anyway I kinda think he gets it, it's just what to do about it.






    or he is not that much of a dumbass to think everything he does and his promises should be taken by face value, and can read over the internet not only in ONE forum.



    distrust over company are growing for years and its over the whole internet, even worse is companys who know only reason they game survive or are any good is because the mod community but love to ignore that and lie saying it all because of how "creative" they are



    remember all bethesda games are playable because of mods, cyberpunk atrocious driving was lessened by modders, 3rd person too since some don't like, modders did this



    bruh...it was a joke. People are harder to please and stuff that was impressive at the time may be less now. I have a bunch of older early 2000s games I break out from time to time thinking, man this game was great back in the day, only to find they really aren't that great now and feel dated. I do think there are some systems that are just too old to make a return to mainstream, like perma-death, corpse runs, player looting ect to name a few.
    Valheim has corpse runs and everyone loves it. It also has extreme skill loss and I dont think anyone complains about that either. Not a system I like but there it is. 

    I actually think the corpse run are the perfect death penalty. Full stop. Nothing else is needed. Its gameplay oriented and pushes all the right buttons in a players mind. If you want an atmosphere of danger in your game, nothing can really compare with it.   
    GdemamiBrainy
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • RaphRaph MMO DesignerMember UncommonPosts: 179

    Wizardry said:


    Open worlds,no added monetization,no hand holding or gaited gameplay,ECO systems,Biomes,true water zones,ship building,house building,ports,defense bases,this is all new wit h survival games,mmorpg's are still stuck in the 90's.






    Those features all came from sandbox MMOs. Ultima Online had quite a lot of that. So did SWG. Survival games are largely inspired by UO in the first place, via Minecraft.


    Gdemami
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 456
    Do you think if SWG was a fantasy game instead of a star wars game it might of had a different outcome?
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,096
    Its interesting you describe fun in learning patterns because that's what I have with my current games.

    Due to the current events I ended up playing online chess and while it doesn't have an obvious progression you have a learning curve with longterm improvements.

    I also play gloomhaven with friends, with new classes, gear and class setups you constantly have to play good and you have a more obvious progression.

    Ever since I quit mmorpg my longest running hobby is bridge, with a social side, competitive side and longterm improvements of how you play.

    I would jump back into mmorpg if they could bring back the feeling of actual progression and forcing me as a player to improve.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,248
    Scot said:
    I think in every article he has done on here we talked about the cynicism that has set in, I think he got the message. But indeed I don't think you would have to cast far into other gaming communities to realise that it has become entrenched.

    "The reason why businesspeople need to use other words is because “fun” isn’t particularly measurable. For one thing, it’s really different for different people."

    Well I mentioned this in a post the other day so I think a lot of us realise this is the case, it is just that it is easy to talk about gameplay in simplistic terms, we all do it.


    Torval said:


    Albatroes said:

    Getting philosophical for a moment, maybe its best that they don't create 'worlds' anymore. Keep in mind, there was a large chunk of players that tried to use these 'worlds' as either a means for a 'second life' or even go as far as to replace their current 'life.' I'm sure there are old gamers who've seen the 'drama' of people attempting to leave their real responsibilities behind to pursue something via the fantasy world and even several who low-key tried to use these 'worlds' as dating apps. I guess in a weird sense, de-valuing power and 'prestige' in a game forces some people to accept who they really are instead of trying to create multiple personas that they will try to utilize to further escape reality. There will always be those that continue to try, but this really only works if the community determines what is important, which seems to be more vanity focused over the past few years. which in-term is entirely subjective in regards to importance.



    This is a really good point. I think we consider the idea of creating worlds from the perspective of a young and inviting internet when MMO worlds were new. Our online interactions have devolved to the point where I'm not confident it's even possible to create a positive community anymore.

    Right now society outside of games has become more tribalistic, insular, and cliquish. How is a positive community supposed to grow in that sort of environment. It seems the deeper these people dive into their alternate personas and virtual reality cliques the more aggressive they become to anything that disturbs their world. I can't think of any "community driven" mmo right now that doesn't have this problem.

    I'm curious how Playable Worlds plans on creating a virtual world that isn't poisoned with this problem?



    I really do not agree here, the failings of society should not stop us trying to create virtual societies. Yes there will be issues, big issues, but that comes with being human. Would you say we should not face up to the challenges our society has? I think I know you well enough that you would never say that, so we need to face up to the challenges any virtual society will have. We will no doubt do as badly doing that as we do in real life, but we still live here don't we?

    Those issues aren't the reason not to try, but why I think they're doomed to failure unless they're addressed. You are correct, in my opinion, that they need to be addressed when trying to build a living virtual world. If they are not, then it is doomed to failure.

    The problem being I haven't seen any project tackle these problems and issues successfully. Some even seem to embrace them. My question is how will Playable Worlds even address this elephant in the room? Like Iselin said, it goes deeper and well beyond disappointment being the root issue.
    Gdemami
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 9,191
    edited April 17
    Rungar said:
    Do you think if SWG was a fantasy game instead of a star wars game it might of had a different outcome?

    Maybe, had it been EQ 2 at the time.

    Honestly a Star Wars MMORPG is the type of IP that should be open world in a way; but it was way ahead of it's time. Honestly if I lived in the Star Wars universe, Galaxies was exactly how I would expect it to look and feel.

    Star Wars as a movie really resonated with folks at the time for many reasons. For me it has always been because there wasn't really one main protagonist; there were many. Star Wars in my opinion was a story about a few washed up half-heroes; some nobodies and a self important princess clumsily stumbling into leading the charge of saving the Universe and defeating bad guys----all while having a journey of self-discovery and living in a believable universe because for once it actually looked lived in. The most interesting parts of the story was that journey; not the end game.

    I thought SWG captured this exceptionally well regardless of some critics opinions at the time.

    Travel back to the early times of SWG ....You made your own name for yourself in the universe and there was plenty of room in it for many stories. You were not anybody important per-say, your importance came from how you played the game and interacted with the world you played in. If you wanted to be anti-social you could do that too.

    Lucas Arts thought the game needed to be less uncle Owen and more heroic and Star Warsy. They completely missed the point of what drew folks already playing in.

      Not everyone who played wanted to be a hero. Not everyone wanted to be told what to do and when. I get it, some folks need hand holding, but others don't want it. It wasn't always about being forced to be a special person destined to save the galaxy, it was about being who you wanted to be, though if you wanted to be that, you could.

    Some just wanted to set up shop and sell stuff they made. Others danced the night away or played music in a cantina and lived off tips, as they traded stories with folks passing through . Others loved to hunt challenging critters in the wilds, or PvP across Tatooine from Bestine to Anchorhead into Mos Eisley. Some people just wanted to AFK their playtime. If you wanted to just grind mission terminals for credits, you could do that too. You could live your own adventure.

    All most folks playing ever really wanted was more lore for a little more diversity, nothing taken away. The universe needed more stories. They didn't add any decent lore until the last few years of games life sadly, and even had the cool storyteller thing for people to create their own. By then SWG was pretty dead so few knew it was a thing.

    I get the fact that at the time MMORPGs were new and full of wonder and amazement for everyone; and you can never get that back, but we can still have fun trying.

    I think with the new direction Disney is taking in telling new stories set in the Star Wars universe it would be a good time to try again with an MMO with the idea that you the player can, if you choose; create your own stories.  Just look at the Manolorian for example.  He's not a Jedi, he's not a Skywalker; he's just some guy who was once a Mandolorian warrior but found himself doing bounties to make ends and stumbles into becoming a hero. After watching two seasons of that show I found myself going, holy crap, The Mandolorian is what it is what it was like to play SWG. That guy obviously has skill boxes in multiple areas; rifleman, brawler, armormsith, some medic, and of course Bounty Hunter. Obviously he learned some languages from around the galaxy in his travels.


    Anyone remember how you had to learn languages in SWG? That was awesome, though a bit confusing as a noob. No MMO has done that since.




    Post edited by Tiller on
    GdemamiTorvalMendelkilun
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • DeadGenreDeadGenre Newbie CommonPosts: 7
    I have some cynicism... This guy hasn't had a successful game project in going on 20 years, I don't see how anything he says is really relevant these days. Maybe people will stop paying attention to him when Crowfall flops.
    Tiller
  • kilunkilun Member UncommonPosts: 809

    DeadGenre said:

    I have some cynicism... This guy hasn't had a successful game project in going on 20 years, I don't see how anything he says is really relevant these days. Maybe people will stop paying attention to him when Crowfall flops.



    Huh? He has mentioned that his is a consultant on Crowfall nothing more, nothing less.

    Raph, the biggest issue with trust can be totally wiped clean if you have a publisher people don't trust. That alone sends off red flags. It has to be self-published, and an IP that is either introduced or that is locked to be used for a while.

    And if you want retention you have to have a focus on social interaction that becomes forced by timesinks. These are things players must do in order to thrive that require us to connect to other players. We may not like it, but it builds community, because at the core we are social creatures.

    SWG did this first by having lines at starports/shuttleports, buffs from doctors and standing in line waiting your turn, getting buffs at the cantina.

    All these helped force interaction to build community and bonding. Once you get that retention goes up because people want to interact with others and almost use your game sometimes as nothing more than to afk some area and chat.

    Believe it or not, I still prefer to use ingame chat over VOIP for 95% of interactions, a few of people I make friends with or are guildmates, sure VOIP becomes fine, but majority lets type!
    GdemamiScot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,004
    edited April 18
    kilun said:

    DeadGenre said:

    I have some cynicism... This guy hasn't had a successful game project in going on 20 years, I don't see how anything he says is really relevant these days. Maybe people will stop paying attention to him when Crowfall flops.



    Huh? He has mentioned that his is a consultant on Crowfall nothing more, nothing less.

    Raph, the biggest issue with trust can be totally wiped clean if you have a publisher people don't trust. That alone sends off red flags. It has to be self-published, and an IP that is either introduced or that is locked to be used for a while.

    And if you want retention you have to have a focus on social interaction that becomes forced by timesinks. These are things players must do in order to thrive that require us to connect to other players. We may not like it, but it builds community, because at the core we are social creatures.

    SWG did this first by having lines at starports/shuttleports, buffs from doctors and standing in line waiting your turn, getting buffs at the cantina.

    All these helped force interaction to build community and bonding. Once you get that retention goes up because people want to interact with others and almost use your game sometimes as nothing more than to afk some area and chat.

    Believe it or not, I still prefer to use ingame chat over VOIP for 95% of interactions, a few of people I make friends with or are guildmates, sure VOIP becomes fine, but majority lets type!
    I don't think there are many trusted publishers out there, can you name one that you think no one will put their hand up and say "hang on"? I am not a person who goes much for "trusted" anyway, more trusted certainly but it is not just in gaming that life shows you that a scintilla of cynicism is a good thing.

    I talked about the importance of in game activities to encourage social interaction in the article he did on "social" so fully agree with you there. As I never played SWG perhaps you can confirm if you had some sort of death penalty which you could work of by resting or listening to a minstrel?

    I can't be sure but I think part of Ralph's thinking is that if you are in the same "world/shard" you are all going to want to socialise, knowing gamers that is simply not going to be enough.
    Gdemami
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