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Is Linear Leveling Progression dead?

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    Rungar said:
    Ungood said:
    Rungar said:
    Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general. 

    knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy

    not to say the other things have no importance.  Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg. 

    remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy. 

    modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps. 



    NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
    All im really saying here is that when you make everything situational you actually have to think to play the game. You actually have to learn about each monster. 

    in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics. 

    Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you. 
    Have you played Dungeons and Dragons Online?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    No i haven't. Didnt even think it still existed until you mentioned it. I might take a look.  
    Ungood
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    Rungar said:
    No i haven't. Didnt even think it still existed until you mentioned it. I might take a look.  
    Ok, you gotta check that game out.

    Now, it's old, like made back in 2006 kind of old, and thus it's dated, it looks dated, but, I bet it has all those features you might love.

    Like Rust Monsters eating your metal weapons, or just common sense things that are not in modern MMO's like, fire elementals being immune to fire damage, but taking extra damage from cold attacks, and the like.

    Plays on a Homebrew/Modified 3.x D&D rules, so it feels and plays like 3.x Rules, but, with some added/revised things going on.

    Give it a whirl, it's F2P, but, like some old school D&D, the Extra Content Packs you need buy. Personally, I'd suggest getting a sub for the month, to see if you like it, and that should give you all the content you can handle.
    Rungar
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    edited May 1
    Common sense things... yes.. that is important.  
    Ungood
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,823
    Ungood said:
    Rungar said:
    No i haven't. Didnt even think it still existed until you mentioned it. I might take a look.  
    Ok, you gotta check that game out.

    Now, it's old, like made back in 2006 kind of old, and thus it's dated, it looks dated, but, I bet it has all those features you might love.

    Like Rust Monsters eating your metal weapons, or just common sense things that are not in modern MMO's like, fire elementals being immune to fire damage, but taking extra damage from cold attacks, and the like.

    Plays on a Homebrew/Modified 3.x D&D rules, so it feels and plays like 3.x Rules, but, with some added/revised things going on.

    Give it a whirl, it's F2P, but, like some old school D&D, the Extra Content Packs you need buy. Personally, I'd suggest getting a sub for the month, to see if you like it, and that should give you all the content you can handle.

    Even UO does stuff like this as well did AC .. and yes you needed tacs and different approach there now/then , try fighting a Lich Lord with the same approach as a troll or Ogre ..

       And just expanding on you Ungood , directed at Rungars that every fight is just DPS ..

      It hasnt been that way that i can think of .. Not in UO/EQ/LOTRO WOW .. etc ... tons of tac and strategy to win in those gamesd , im not eevn sure if the OP has played many games at all with his limted knowledge of encounters in any of these games
    UngoodAlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    edited May 2
    sure ive played them most of them.  I know eq had some elements....over 20 years ago...daoc,  Never played lord of the rings long enough, I played wow to lv 60, don't remember anything particularly challenging or have to learn anything.

    Certainly dont remember it in eso or gw2 and never played final fantasy but watched my brother and its no different than eso. 

    oh they all have their strategies. Just not the ones i suggest. Rarely in these games do you need to change strategies due to a monster or figure out a weakness. Almost never do you not have the tools for every monster.

    Were not talking about scripted raids here. 
    AAAMEOWAlBQuirky
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,447
    I think most of the challenging content in most popular mmorpg is in dungeon and raids.

    You won't find any challenging content in the open world in those games.  Even the dungeon is mostly a breeze because you'll be playing with people who ran the same dungeon 1000 times and they'll carry you.  
    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,702
    Rungar said:
    sure ive played them most of them.  I know eq had some elements....over 20 years ago...daoc,  Never played lord of the rings long enough, I played wow to lv 60, don't remember anything particularly challenging or have to learn anything.

    Certainly dont remember it in eso or gw2 and never played final fantasy but watched my brother and its no different than eso. 

    oh they all have their strategies. Just not the ones i suggest. Rarely in these games do you need to change strategies due to a monster or figure out a weakness. Almost never do you not have the tools for every monster.

    Were not talking about scripted raids here. 
    EVE actually does have some of the situational awareness you mentioned.

    It can matter a great deal when and where you use an armor fit vs a shield fit depending on what you opponent is likely to shoot at you or be using.

    PVE is a bit more forgiving at times but in certain environments having the wrong fit say in a certain wormhole type can be disastrous for sure, but usually isn't to hard to avoid.

    PVP is different, never can be sure your opponent won't surprise you which is why running often becomes the best choice when available if one finds themselves outmatched in terms of fits as well as numbers.


    AlBQuirkyUngoodtzervo

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,742
    Rungar said:
    Ungood said:
    Rungar said:
    Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general. 

    knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy

    not to say the other things have no importance.  Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg. 

    remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy. 

    modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps. 



    NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
    All im really saying here is that when you make everything situational you actually have to think to play the game. You actually have to learn about each monster. 

    in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics. 

    Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you. 

    While I agree that "knowing your enemy" is important and I'm all for strategy over mad clicking, "situational" is cumbersome. Do I carry a sword of flame vs ice critters, a mace of energy vs armored skeletons, a bow of slow vs charging enemies? Let alone all the armor I'll need for each individual situation.

    I realize that this is over-the-top, but what are you seeking to do?

    Or... is this in the setting of MMO where we count on others for their variety?

    This is end of page so my apologies is addressed next page :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    AlBQuirky said:
    Rungar said:
    Ungood said:
    Rungar said:
    Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general. 

    knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy

    not to say the other things have no importance.  Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg. 

    remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy. 

    modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps. 



    NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
    All im really saying here is that when you make everything situational you actually have to think to play the game. You actually have to learn about each monster. 

    in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics. 

    Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you. 

    While I agree that "knowing your enemy" is important and I'm all for strategy over mad clicking, "situational" is cumbersome. Do I carry a sword of flame vs ice critters, a mace of energy vs armored skeletons, a bow of slow vs charging enemies? Let alone all the armor I'll need for each individual situation.

    I realize that this is over-the-top, but what are you seeking to do?

    Or... is this in the setting of MMO where we count on others for their variety?

    This is end of page so my apologies is addressed next page :)
    In DDO, the answer to this Question is Yes.

    in DDO, Your Trusty Dwarven Warrior, will have their hefty Dwarf Axe for Zombie's, and then Swap to a War Hammer for Skelton's, when you need to deal with the fire critters, you will want a Frost Weapon, and a Blazing weapon for the Ice Critters, you will also want a Silver weapon, a Good Weapon, an Adamantine Weapon, and perhaps a non-metal weapon, like Glass or Wood, or just use a throw-away, also, ranged weapons are a must, so even if you are the most melee, melee player ever, you might want to get a throwing hammer or throwing dagger, or something, just for those times that a mob happens to be up on a ledge shooting you with a bow.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    AlBQuirky said:
    Rungar said:
    Ungood said:
    Rungar said:
    Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general. 

    knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy

    not to say the other things have no importance.  Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg. 

    remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy. 

    modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps. 



    NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
    All im really saying here is that when you make everything situational you actually have to think to play the game. You actually have to learn about each monster. 

    in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics. 

    Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you. 

    While I agree that "knowing your enemy" is important and I'm all for strategy over mad clicking, "situational" is cumbersome. Do I carry a sword of flame vs ice critters, a mace of energy vs armored skeletons, a bow of slow vs charging enemies? Let alone all the armor I'll need for each individual situation.

    I realize that this is over-the-top, but what are you seeking to do?

    Or... is this in the setting of MMO where we count on others for their variety?

    This is end of page so my apologies is addressed next page :)
    Yes! You might not have the tools to do everything yourself. some things might be hard and some things might be impossible and might need help!  Someone else might need help with something your good at!  

    You dont HAVE to be able to kill everything yourself. You dont need, and there wont be a "special weapon" for every encounter and that's why we have the situational role system. You might have a few "better than nothing" options available to you but there should be no expectation of having the right tool for the job in every situation. 

    you can easily avoid everything your not good at if your a solo player. Your not forced to group to kill anything at all, but you shouldnt have the expectation you can kill everything either. 
      
    AlBQuirky
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,480
    I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs.  Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.



    AlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Mendel said:
    I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs.  Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.



    Just because something is inherently more challenging, doesnt mean you cant do it. In an exp based game you would just avoid that creature and pick easier fruit. In a no exp game the resource is what matters more so if you want the resource you need to kill it. This kind of situational system doesn't work right in an exp system because players pick low hanging fruit, and why not?

    Its not all or nothing either. Your weapons will still work to some degree based on the situation, but they wont be the most effective solution in every case.  This lets you feel powerful and humble at the same time. 

    This is why i like a 3 weapon system you can change on the fly. Youll have something that will work. It might not always be the best but youll have something for most occasions. Some monsters you will learn to avoid when your by yourself. 

    its reasonable for a mage to avoid a mob thats immune or even resistant to magic.  
    AlBQuirky
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    Mendel said:
    I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs.  Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.



    DDO uses what is called a DR Breaker.

    Case in point.
    Most Devils are Silver -or- Good, to break their DR.
    Most Daemons are Cold Iron -or- Good to Break their DR.
    Most Vampires are Silver to Break their DR.
    Devil Raid Bosses are Silver -And- Good to Break their DR.

    So if you have, say, a Holy Silver Longsword, you can bypass the DR of a large group of Mobs, and some Raid Bosses.

    But it's not all about the weapon, for example, a Monk, when they get to a high enough level, and if they chose specific paths, their Unarmed Strikes (Using Hand wraps) can count as Good, as well as all the other properties of the Hand wraps. 

    There are also Magical Augments to some Weapons, like for example, you have a Metalline Weapon,  which means the weapon counts as all Metal Types, IE: Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, Byeshk, etc.

    You also have Aligned Weapons. That can bypass any Alignment DR. Which includes, good, evil, lawful, chaotic, etc.

    There are also weapons that do various kinds of Damage, Pierce/Slash/Blunt. Like a Heavy Boltslinger Crossbow, does both Pierce and Blunt Damage, super handy for people that want to shoot Skeltions with a Crossbow.

    Now, sometimes the DR is rather low, like for example, a Generic Skelton, level 3, their DR to slashing is 5. Not that hard to overcome if you opt to just smash them with your greataxe. This may or may not become an issue for your character in the game, depending on how much you want to focus on a single weapon type. 

    So it's not really an all or nothing, it's more a Damage Reduction. 

    Even mobs that have fire immunity. You can still hit them with your flaming longsword, just know the fire damage won't hurt them, even if the blade itself will.

    But, yes, it is about situational weapons, this keeps the game from being "You need Epic Purple Border Weapon XYZ, or you suck"

    In DDO, there is no one weapon to rule them all, some argue that at 30th, there is, but.. not really. When you consider that you can play this game with a vast array of choices, from many races, each with their own advantages and disadvantages and trait lines, as well as mix up to 3 classes, with up to 3 trait lines per class, along with some generic trait lines that anyone can use, various feats, skills, and a slew of armor, weapons, gear, items, consumables, you have a lot to think about.

    Couple that with  each dungeon is about resources management, with a very limited number of rest shrines to heal and recover spell points while in a dungeon, So if you take a beating in one fight, you either need to have brought some kind of healing with you, like Healing potions, healing wands, a friend that can heal, maybe the ability to cast heal spells yourself, but you can't just sit Out Of Combat, and expect to fully recover like other games.

    It's kinda fun, if that is your sort of thing.. if not, then it will suck for you, and you should play something else.
    kitaradAlBQuirkytzervo
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,742
    Mendel said:
    I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs.  Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.

    I'm with you on this.

    I certainly can understand players who desire this kind of strategy. I'm not one of them. I dislike Fallout: New Vegas for their handling of ammo types. I much prefer Fallout 3's much simpler, less worrisome ammo. There is big majority of players that preferred New Vegas over 3 :)

    I appreciate the "types vs defense" strategies but it pushes me over my personal limit. I also understand that not having the correct type doesn't mean you can't hurt them, unless they are "immune." It's just not "as efficient."
    UngoodMendelKyleran

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Ungood said:
    Mendel said:
    I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs.  Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.



    DDO uses what is called a DR Breaker.

    Case in point.
    Most Devils are Silver -or- Good, to break their DR.
    Most Daemons are Cold Iron -or- Good to Break their DR.
    Most Vampires are Silver to Break their DR.
    Devil Raid Bosses are Silver -And- Good to Break their DR.

    So if you have, say, a Holy Silver Longsword, you can bypass the DR of a large group of Mobs, and some Raid Bosses.

    But it's not all about the weapon, for example, a Monk, when they get to a high enough level, and if they chose specific paths, their Unarmed Strikes (Using Hand wraps) can count as Good, as well as all the other properties of the Hand wraps. 

    There are also Magical Augments to some Weapons, like for example, you have a Metalline Weapon,  which means the weapon counts as all Metal Types, IE: Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, Byeshk, etc.

    You also have Aligned Weapons. That can bypass any Alignment DR. Which includes, good, evil, lawful, chaotic, etc.

    There are also weapons that do various kinds of Damage, Pierce/Slash/Blunt. Like a Heavy Boltslinger Crossbow, does both Pierce and Blunt Damage, super handy for people that want to shoot Skeltions with a Crossbow.

    Now, sometimes the DR is rather low, like for example, a Generic Skelton, level 3, their DR to slashing is 5. Not that hard to overcome if you opt to just smash them with your greataxe. This may or may not become an issue for your character in the game, depending on how much you want to focus on a single weapon type. 

    So it's not really an all or nothing, it's more a Damage Reduction. 

    Even mobs that have fire immunity. You can still hit them with your flaming longsword, just know the fire damage won't hurt them, even if the blade itself will.

    But, yes, it is about situational weapons, this keeps the game from being "You need Epic Purple Border Weapon XYZ, or you suck"

    In DDO, there is no one weapon to rule them all, some argue that at 30th, there is, but.. not really. When you consider that you can play this game with a vast array of choices, from many races, each with their own advantages and disadvantages and trait lines, as well as mix up to 3 classes, with up to 3 trait lines per class, along with some generic trait lines that anyone can use, various feats, skills, and a slew of armor, weapons, gear, items, consumables, you have a lot to think about.

    Couple that with  each dungeon is about resources management, with a very limited number of rest shrines to heal and recover spell points while in a dungeon, So if you take a beating in one fight, you either need to have brought some kind of healing with you, like Healing potions, healing wands, a friend that can heal, maybe the ability to cast heal spells yourself, but you can't just sit Out Of Combat, and expect to fully recover like other games.

    It's kinda fun, if that is your sort of thing.. if not, then it will suck for you, and you should play something else.
    Where this falls apart is that you just need to switch to the right weapon, which is always available and thus invalidates the entire role process. In order for it to work properly you have to have a continuum where you can go from really good to really bad based solely on the monster your facing. 

    just adding different weapon types isnt enough and actually makes it worse for the reason Al mentioned. Players get frustrated by having to many weapons to cycle through. 

    Instead you pick a role knowing that the role has real strengths and real weaknesses. There might be some variability in the weapons you use but you dont solve the problem by getting weapon type x. 

    so in the case of the fighter against the physical resistance mob, well none of his weapons work well, but maces work better than swords. 

      
    AlBQuirky
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • ILLISETILLISET Member UncommonPosts: 113
    Rungar said:
    ILLISET said:
    I feel like linear leveling progression died 10 years ago; however, nobody made a good enough mmo without it in the meantime and instead made terrible MMOs.  For that reason, linear leveling progression is revived and there is a great thirst for it at this point in time.

    So in short, if you think linear leveling progression is a thing of the past, then you are behind thr power curve slightly. 
    Given the recent popularity of survival games I find that to be highly questionable. Players want basebuilding and adventure not a walking stat sheet grinder. 

    Eso was literally brought back from the dead by removing some "levels", and as we see in their most recent patches they have walked back on their megagrind champion system not once, but twice. 

    Since that is one of the more popular mmo games out, i dont see where the demand for more level grinding is coming from? 
    Recent?  ARK came out like 6 years ago. Conan Exiles 5 years ago.  The only survival game that had had a recent surge is Valheim and that's not even because it's survival but because it is just a really well made game and cheap.  

    To add, valheim was way too easy and has zero endgame longevity.  Ark and Conan had endgame but even that had a shelf life before the server needed to be wiped for a reset.  After that happens a few times in a row the shelf life of that is now gone too and the original players are now looking for a new game to play.  Also, there is not one survival game out there that is MMO.  They all have 70 limit servers max...  

    To add, all of Valheims player base only lasted for about 4 weeks tops until they moved on.  2 to 4 million is impressive and nice; however it's a 6 person server so... not even close to an MMO. 

    The notion that mmorpg players are leaving the genre and permanently going to survival is a ridiculous gesture. 
    AlBQuirkyTuor7
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    Rungar said:
    Ungood said:
    Mendel said:
    I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs.  Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.



    DDO uses what is called a DR Breaker.

    Case in point.
    Most Devils are Silver -or- Good, to break their DR.
    Most Daemons are Cold Iron -or- Good to Break their DR.
    Most Vampires are Silver to Break their DR.
    Devil Raid Bosses are Silver -And- Good to Break their DR.

    So if you have, say, a Holy Silver Longsword, you can bypass the DR of a large group of Mobs, and some Raid Bosses.

    But it's not all about the weapon, for example, a Monk, when they get to a high enough level, and if they chose specific paths, their Unarmed Strikes (Using Hand wraps) can count as Good, as well as all the other properties of the Hand wraps. 

    There are also Magical Augments to some Weapons, like for example, you have a Metalline Weapon,  which means the weapon counts as all Metal Types, IE: Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, Byeshk, etc.

    You also have Aligned Weapons. That can bypass any Alignment DR. Which includes, good, evil, lawful, chaotic, etc.

    There are also weapons that do various kinds of Damage, Pierce/Slash/Blunt. Like a Heavy Boltslinger Crossbow, does both Pierce and Blunt Damage, super handy for people that want to shoot Skeltions with a Crossbow.

    Now, sometimes the DR is rather low, like for example, a Generic Skelton, level 3, their DR to slashing is 5. Not that hard to overcome if you opt to just smash them with your greataxe. This may or may not become an issue for your character in the game, depending on how much you want to focus on a single weapon type. 

    So it's not really an all or nothing, it's more a Damage Reduction. 

    Even mobs that have fire immunity. You can still hit them with your flaming longsword, just know the fire damage won't hurt them, even if the blade itself will.

    But, yes, it is about situational weapons, this keeps the game from being "You need Epic Purple Border Weapon XYZ, or you suck"

    In DDO, there is no one weapon to rule them all, some argue that at 30th, there is, but.. not really. When you consider that you can play this game with a vast array of choices, from many races, each with their own advantages and disadvantages and trait lines, as well as mix up to 3 classes, with up to 3 trait lines per class, along with some generic trait lines that anyone can use, various feats, skills, and a slew of armor, weapons, gear, items, consumables, you have a lot to think about.

    Couple that with  each dungeon is about resources management, with a very limited number of rest shrines to heal and recover spell points while in a dungeon, So if you take a beating in one fight, you either need to have brought some kind of healing with you, like Healing potions, healing wands, a friend that can heal, maybe the ability to cast heal spells yourself, but you can't just sit Out Of Combat, and expect to fully recover like other games.

    It's kinda fun, if that is your sort of thing.. if not, then it will suck for you, and you should play something else.
    Where this falls apart is that you just need to switch to the right weapon, which is always available and thus invalidates the entire role process. In order for it to work properly you have to have a continuum where you can go from really good to really bad based solely on the monster your facing. 

    just adding different weapon types isnt enough and actually makes it worse for the reason Al mentioned. Players get frustrated by having to many weapons to cycle through. 

    Instead you pick a role knowing that the role has real strengths and real weaknesses. There might be some variability in the weapons you use but you dont solve the problem by getting weapon type x. 

    so in the case of the fighter against the physical resistance mob, well none of his weapons work well, but maces work better than swords. 

      
    You're really losing me here, with what you are trying to do.

    And to set the record Straight, as far as DDO goes, there is no problem with having various kinds of situational weapons, armor, gear, since that is an intrinsic part of the game with mobs having special traits, like Rust Monsters eating metal, Vampires and Werewolves needing silver weapons to hurt them, Trolls needing acid to hurt them or they will simply heal the damage, Kobold Shaman casting Lighting bolts at you, Beholders casting Finger of Death on you, and on and on it will go with the various things that you need to handle and deal with in the various dungeons that you can face, and all of these things are a huge part of both DDO and D&D, where everyone would collect over time, weapons, gear, items, and such, to handle whatever it is they may be facing with each delve.

    If Dealing with various mobs with traits that you need situational weapons, Armor, and Gear, to deal with is not what you want to play, then DDO will not be the game for you. Simple as that.

    Just with, well, whatever it is your idea will be, you will have players that will want to deal with that, and those that won't, simple as that.

    For the players that enjoy games like DDO where you need to think ahead, and build a collection of weapons, armor, and gear, for situations that will arise, they love that part of the game, in fact, that is what keeps them playing a game like DDO, because the newer games simply do not have that depth to them.

    As far as the right weapon always being available.. That is it's own game within the game, as a huge part of DDO, is collecting and building that arsenal, so you will be ready to handle what comes.

    At the start, it's not so easy. You might have found a really nice great axe, flaming great axe of deadly, for example, great weapon for it's level. Well, you just need to get that the flaming will not work on the fire imps, you will take the hit to DR when fighting Skelton's, or you can swap that frost dagger you looted for fire Imps or just keep whacking at it with the flaming great axe, or when faced with a Skelton, you can swap to that Mace you found, or just keep smashing it with your great axe. These are choices you face.

    I feel this kind of gameplay right now, because DDO is doing their Hardcore Event (Perma Death) which means, when you die, your character is dead, and you have to re-start from the very beginning again with a new Character, ALL your stuff and progress lost. So, dealing with the situational aspect of DDO, based on what you loot, and what you can get as you go, is very much it's own challenge and mini-game within the game.

    Sure as Time goes on, on the main servers, your immortal character can collect and build a vast array and arsenal of gear and weapons. But that is the main game.

    Just as you might think "Oh there is a problem with idea XYZ" that will hold true for whatever anyone thinks up. TBH, I don't grasp your idea, so I can't tell if it is good or bad, I liked my idea if roles being linked to weapons, and being able to swap what position you can play based in a weapon, kind of like how Gensin Impact allows you swap characters in combat to play various roles. I still think that would be a dope idea.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    Rungar said:
    Where this falls apart is that you just need to switch to the right weapon, which is always available and thus invalidates the entire role process. In order for it to work properly you have to have a continuum where you can go from really good to really bad based solely on the monster your facing. 

    NGL, If there is no way to bypass the mobs defenses other then "Play something else", that sounds lame.

    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Im am not saying the ddo idea is inherently bad. It is situational. I actually agree with you but... 

    If every monster type requires an "ideal weapon set" you have just cut off your own feet. 

    The point is that you have limited weapons and sometimes they are really effective, sometimes ok and sometimes really bad. 

    instead you are the ideal weapon, sometimes. Sometimes you are the ideal shield,  Sometimes someone else is. 


    so our fighter is fighting an iron slime. He is not well suited for this task but wants the iron it drops. Swords don't work at all, but maces do work a bit. Its more challenging but he can kill the slime with the mace, fancy footwork and crowd control. A mage comes along and blasts the shit out of it with a fireball because the mage is better suited to kill this thing. 

    down the path the mage runs into a willowisp, who is resistant to magic. Ice and fire dont work at all but lightning works a little bit. The fighter comes along and crushes it into the ground. 

    Thats all it is. 




    on a side note i tried ddo but the controls are shit. Controller support is kinda critical for me but i might take another stab at it.  
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    Rungar said:
    Im am not saying the ddo idea is inherently bad. It is situational. I actually agree with you but... 

    If every monster type requires an "ideal weapon set" you have just cut off your own feet. 

    The point is that you have limited weapons and sometimes they are really effective, sometimes ok and sometimes really bad. 

    instead you are the ideal weapon, sometimes. Sometimes you are the ideal shield,  Sometimes someone else is. 


    so our fighter is fighting an iron slime. He is not well suited for this task but wants the iron it drops. Swords don't work at all, but maces do work a bit. Its more challenging but he can kill the slime with the mace, fancy footwork and crowd control. A mage comes along and blasts the shit out of it with a fireball because the mage is better suited to kill this thing. 

    down the path the mage runs into a willowisp, who is resistant to magic. Ice and fire dont work at all but lightning works a little bit. The fighter comes along and crushes it into the ground. 

    Thats all it is. 

    on a side note i tried ddo but the controls are shit. Controller support is kinda critical for me but i might take another stab at it.  
    Let me ask my friend about Controller Support for DDO. That is a shit issue for sure. I think they turned off the In-game support and went 3rd party for more options.

    AFIK, their Controller support is a new thing, and not something I use. Let me see what I can find for you.

    As far as your idea goes.

    Yah, DDO has things like that. Arcane oozes are hilarious as they eat your mana pool.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    I mean the core idea is there in DDO in principle. They have all the cool monsters with interesting abilities for sure kinda like old D&D had in the monster manual.

    Its not like its difficult to put that in any game. I would just like to see it integrated with character roles as it would serve to make the game more social without preventing players from killing things on their own.  


    .33 of a second to midnight
  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 94
    Ungood said:
    Rungar said:
    ...
    on a side note i tried ddo but the controls are shit. Controller support is kinda critical for me but i might take another stab at it.  
    Let me ask my friend about Controller Support for DDO. That is a shit issue for sure. I think they turned off the In-game support and went 3rd party for more options.

    AFIK, their Controller support is a new thing, and not something I use. Let me see what I can find for you.
    ...

    i use a controller to play DDO... i didn't even know it had controller support, or added support... i play using a keymapper program (i used to use Pinnacle, but support ended for it. i think the guy that ran it had a nervous breakdown or something? idk.  i swapped to Xpadder)

    i use the action camera cursor thing (i think the default keybind is T?) and one joystick is mapped to WASD the other is mapped to WSQE (QE being the strafe keys), but you can play around and set it up however it works for you. jump is one of my trigger buttons, and basic attacl/use is the other. i set my most commonly used abilities in 1-8 of the first hotbutton row, and corespond to my right hand button, used twice because of a modifier button. 9 and 0 i just mash on the keyboard if i really need to. other abilities i keep in hotbars on my screen, and if i use them rarely, i just click as needed, and if i am going to use them frequently in a particular quest, i swap them into the 1-8 position for easy use.

    if you want more help or info i can try to help you a little more in depth, but playing with a controller is totally doable... i've done it for years... to a reasonable amount of success.  it saves my wrists from carpal tunnel

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,667
    Rungar said:
    I mean the core idea is there in DDO in principle. They have all the cool monsters with interesting abilities for sure kinda like old D&D had in the monster manual.

    Its not like its difficult to put that in any game. I would just like to see it integrated with character roles as it would serve to make the game more social without preventing players from killing things on their own.  


    Apparently, it is, as almost no modern game has these features, if it was easy, you would think it would common, but it's not.

    As far as roles go, Ok.. Get this.

    DDO has all the core ideas of roles, like Cleric's heal, Mages blow stuff up, Fighters hit stuff, etc, etc, and all that jazz. It was a lot more simplistic when I started over a decade ago, and the game has evolved quite a bit since then.

    But even back then, "Soloing" was a challenge all in it's own right, where players would make class combos so they could be self reliant, healing themselves, via various means, and no joke, back in the day, this took a lot of work to make happen. It was it's own challenge and art form for a lot of players to be, what was deemed as self sufficient.

    And this was derived from the idea that no one wanted to be the person that had to enable someone else to have fun (Also called: Babysitting).

    People who enjoyed playing clerics and healers, began to step up into more aggressive roles, where if the melee/tank was being stupid or sloppy, they would just let them die and kill the mobs themselves, drop their stone at the rest shrine and either the melee player would catch a clue to play smarter, or they would end up a soul stone for the rest of the dungeon.

    The idea of forced roles is an archaic one, one that rightfully has gone the way of the dodo. The ideal game for the smart player in this era, is not needing roles, but needing to think about tactics, prep, and how to handle situations as they arise. This is why a lot of players have stayed with older games, but learned to far more self sufficient in them. Because the challenge of a dungeon should not be "Need a Healer" should be "Don't be stupid"

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • CuddleheartCuddleheart Member UncommonPosts: 341
    Does XPadder have a preset for DDO?  I think I have a license for when I play Mass Effect 1.  The limited amount of time I've given to this, I kinda thought it would be more fun on my couch with a controller.  It's really the only way I can play games with targeting comfortably.
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