AA's are built right into the combat design,they are a FAKE way to fool players into thinking they are achieving something.
To me it was VERY obvious when they made the changes because i left the game for a year and when i returned with no AA's my player was noticeably worse than when i left.
So they nerfed the players and did these AA's just to get you back to the non nerfed version ..lmao and it fooled people...sigh. WAY WAY too many hotbar icons,they should be condensed to have more meaningful abilities rather than 50 different dmg icons. Stats gear might be a fave of modern gamers but i know it is a bad way to implement combat.
Giving players some really good important abilities to use is how you allow players to have intuitive combat.Of course the EQ teams have failed like most do in that anytime you et something that is actually useful it doesn't work on Bosses...lame. You don't NEED anything versus trash mobs,the only time any of it matters is versus a Boss so yeah it is a big fail when you eliminate the positives of advancement.
I consider alternate advancement a weak form of a loadout system. im most games you dont have to do anything specific, just grind up the exp and allocate points. It is still a loadout system though so better than a linear one.
i agree with you regarding putting things in the game like crowd control only to make nothing work. Its dumb and leads to everything being a dps fest as that's the only strategy that works. I think alot more can be done in this regard
early eq ( before the raids) used crowd control to great effect and it worked very well in providing strategy to split and isolate mobs but it failed in that you HAD to kill mobs one at a time. There is a middle ground here. Eso relied on groups of monsters but has extremely weak crowd control. I think somewhere in-between is the right answer.
Enchanter in early EQ was a blast....Probably the most fun I had playing in a MMO.....I liked that as I leveled up the spells got better and better and was a great incentive to gain levels.....
It sounds like the spells and what you could do with them is what you really enjoyed. That wouldnt change with anything i propose. How you come to get them might change a bit, but in a way that would more accurately portray your game experience rather than just kill stuff.
AA's are built right into the combat design,they are a FAKE way to fool players into thinking they are achieving something.
To me it was VERY obvious when they made the changes because i left the game for a year and when i returned with no AA's my player was noticeably worse than when i left.
So they nerfed the players and did these AA's just to get you back to the non nerfed version ..lmao and it fooled people...sigh. WAY WAY too many hotbar icons,they should be condensed to have more meaningful abilities rather than 50 different dmg icons. Stats gear might be a fave of modern gamers but i know it is a bad way to implement combat.
Giving players some really good important abilities to use is how you allow players to have intuitive combat.Of course the EQ teams have failed like most do in that anytime you et something that is actually useful it doesn't work on Bosses...lame. You don't NEED anything versus trash mobs,the only time any of it matters is versus a Boss so yeah it is a big fail when you eliminate the positives of advancement.
I consider alternate advancement a weak form of a loadout system. im most games you dont have to do anything specific, just grind up the exp and allocate points. It is still a loadout system though so better than a linear one.
i agree with you regarding putting things in the game like crowd control only to make nothing work. Its dumb and leads to everything being a dps fest as that's the only strategy that works. I think alot more can be done in this regard
early eq ( before the raids) used crowd control to great effect and it worked very well in providing strategy to split and isolate mobs but it failed in that you HAD to kill mobs one at a time. There is a middle ground here. Eso relied on groups of monsters but has extremely weak crowd control. I think somewhere in-between is the right answer.
Enchanter in early EQ was a blast....Probably the most fun I had playing in a MMO.....I liked that as I leveled up the spells got better and better and was a great incentive to gain levels.....
I am not against gaining levels. It is the power platforms related to leveling leads to gameplay I don't like. I don't like the whole game, world and gameplay based around levels and loot. When I say power platform are uniformed gains to HP, mana, stats and artificial multipliers of power over lower levels.
I hate the Dragon Ball Z crap most RPGs have. You're level 70 and can one shot the level 50 destroyer of galaxies two expansion ago. But this new wolf model in the newest expansion will now will one shot because it's level 80 and you're 70.
There are two opposing camps when it comes to "levels". One is the traditional D&D linear progression model. You gain a level you get a bunch of free stuff. The other is the loadout model where you fill up and then tweak the loadout according to your wishes.
almost all mmos use the D&D method but not all. ESO for instance has a loadout method for gear and a scaling method for levels to normalize all players. Its actually not that bad all things considered.
I feel that the Traditional D&D level can be removed and replaced with a better and modern system that uses algorithms to parse your entire experience thereby dramatically increasing your ability to play your way. Whether its efficient or not is your problem.
Obviously you dont learn much about axes without an axe in your hand but with my system the Algorithm will know if you grouped with someone who used an axe, if you were hit with an axe, if you died with an axe in your hand, if you killed things with an axe, if you chopped a tree with the axe. From there it will determine if your now worthy of knowledge which you can use to build a training simulator which you can then use to gain some kind of unique perk related directly or indirectly to axes.
There are two opposing camps when it comes to "levels". One is the traditional D&D linear progression model. You gain a level you get a bunch of free stuff. The other is the loadout model where you fill up and then tweak the loadout according to your wishes.
almost all mmos use the D&D method but not all. ESO for instance has a loadout method for gear and a scaling method for levels to normalize all players. Its actually not that bad all things considered.
I feel that the Traditional D&D level can be removed and replaced with a better and modern system that uses algorithms to parse your entire experience thereby dramatically increasing your ability to play your way. Whether its efficient or not is your problem.
Obviously you dont learn much about axes without an axe in your hand but with my system the Algorithm will know if you grouped with someone who used an axe, if you were hit with an axe, if you died with an axe in your hand, if you killed things with an axe, if you chopped a tree with the axe. From there it will determine if your now worthy of knowledge which you can use to build a training simulator which you can then use to gain some kind of unique perk related directly or indirectly to axes.
show me what game has done that.
Sooo UO s system , is what you described there .. and yes you Level your skills there in variuous ways ,
You LEVEL your Skills to Define your class
And yes there is a amgical formual under the hood that effects skills ..
Like yes, chopping Trees will improve your LEVEL of Strength and also improve the LEVEL of damage you do in Swordmanship..
Inscription will help LEVEL Magery and give it and Increased LEVEL of Damage
Getting hit by spells improves you Magic Resist /Magery and Eval Intelligence
etc...
All been done before and all involve LEVELING ..
Your Algothorim is justa way of disguising the LEVELING process and has been done in numerous games ..
It keeps track of the experience you gain and notifies you when your Axe skill has reached anew LEVEL or Unlocks new Skills at certain number(LEVEL)
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
The only real counter I can think of to 'experience' is just making progression focused around money. Personally, it does sound more appealing to me that I can just pay a trainer to learn certain secrets without needing the 'experience' to do so. Maybe even make it attached to a 'karma' system which some people will probably just think is another form of 'leveling' but I feel like if things make 'sense' within the game world, the labels should matter less. If I'm building fame with a group/city/etc, it should open up more options for me.
Using currency to purchase better LEVELS of skills
Is Leveling the coin now becomes the XP needed to advance skill
Sword - 6-18 damage
Sword II - 12-36 damage cost 3300 Gold to advance
You are leveling skills
Notice that I never said LEVELS of skills, just skills. I do think more games need modifiers to skills though. For example, lets say you pay a trainer to learn how to cast a basic fireball, then you pay that trainer the ability to shoot more than 1 fireball at the same time.
Some people would even find it more appealing to do a quest in order to find some kind of secret lost art to modify something. If you think about it in a more 'realistic' sense, either paying or build up through some form of reputation makes sense for you to learn things that normal people cannot.
I've always found it dumb with systems like wow where you needed to pay for a higher version of the same spell, even though the actual use in the game at the time made sense (different versions have different cast times/resource requirements etc). Unless they're providing a substantial difference in use or whatever, it kind of never made sense to me. For example, FFXI had different tiers of spells, but had different purposes for some, like Cure 1 was mostly used to wake people from sleep status once a higher form was learned and Cure 4 was mostly used to build threat as a tank. Different nuke levels had different threat levels which was very important to understand on fights like Nidhogg where you had to deal with an enrage timer but threat could easily build up on magic bursting mages if they weren't paying attention. Can't dps if you're dead and wasting time waiting for someone to unweaken during an AoE heavy fight is pretty silly too.
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Yeah, you would have to use difficulty as a measuring stick without vertical levels. I like it this way because it gives more realistic context vs. how traditional levels give power to things that generally make no sense. For example an end game zone wolves in an expansion will curb stop a previously max level character with top teir gear. While a world ending threat is laughable players.
One reason why I don't like traditional levels. Even if you keep levels I think they should be a metric and trigger for subtle growth, new skills and abilities. Not the Dragon Ball Z method we have now.
The only real counter I can think of to 'experience' is just making progression focused around money. Personally, it does sound more appealing to me that I can just pay a trainer to learn certain secrets without needing the 'experience' to do so. Maybe even make it attached to a 'karma' system which some people will probably just think is another form of 'leveling' but I feel like if things make 'sense' within the game world, the labels should matter less. If I'm building fame with a group/city/etc, it should open up more options for me.
Using currency to purchase better LEVELS of skills
Is Leveling the coin now becomes the XP needed to advance skill
Sword - 6-18 damage
Sword II - 12-36 damage cost 3300 Gold to advance
You are leveling skills
Notice that I never said LEVELS of skills, just skills. I do think more games need modifiers to skills though. For example, lets say you pay a trainer to learn how to cast a basic fireball, then you pay that trainer the ability to shoot more than 1 fireball at the same time.
Some people would even find it more appealing to do a quest in order to find some kind of secret lost art to modify something. If you think about it in a more 'realistic' sense, either paying or build up through some form of reputation makes sense for you to learn things that normal people cannot.
I've always found it dumb with systems like wow where you needed to pay for a higher version of the same spell, even though the actual use in the game at the time made sense (different versions have different cast times/resource requirements etc). Unless they're providing a substantial difference in use or whatever, it kind of never made sense to me. For example, FFXI had different tiers of spells, but had different purposes for some, like Cure 1 was mostly used to wake people from sleep status once a higher form was learned and Cure 4 was mostly used to build threat as a tank. Different nuke levels had different threat levels which was very important to understand on fights like Nidhogg where you had to deal with an enrage timer but threat could easily build up on magic bursting mages if they weren't paying attention. Can't dps if you're dead and wasting time waiting for someone to unweaken during an AoE heavy fight is pretty silly too.
Does not matter what you say
Its what it is ..
A higher LEVEL skill that does more Damage/Projectile/Heal/ etc..
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Ohh neat ..
So you can beat a Lvl 1 Orc with X in all those Stats
Now tell us how you beat a LvL 30 Orc with Stats increased x 30 ..
Remember you have no increase in Power or Level ..
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Ohh neat ..
So you can beat a Lvl 1 Orc with X in all those Stats
Now tell us how you beat a LvL 30 Orc with Stats increased x 30 ..
Remember you have no increase in Power or Level ..
The only real counter I can think of to 'experience' is just making progression focused around money. Personally, it does sound more appealing to me that I can just pay a trainer to learn certain secrets without needing the 'experience' to do so. Maybe even make it attached to a 'karma' system which some people will probably just think is another form of 'leveling' but I feel like if things make 'sense' within the game world, the labels should matter less. If I'm building fame with a group/city/etc, it should open up more options for me.
Using currency to purchase better LEVELS of skills
Is Leveling the coin now becomes the XP needed to advance skill
Sword - 6-18 damage
Sword II - 12-36 damage cost 3300 Gold to advance
You are leveling skills
Notice that I never said LEVELS of skills, just skills. I do think more games need modifiers to skills though. For example, lets say you pay a trainer to learn how to cast a basic fireball, then you pay that trainer the ability to shoot more than 1 fireball at the same time.
Some people would even find it more appealing to do a quest in order to find some kind of secret lost art to modify something. If you think about it in a more 'realistic' sense, either paying or build up through some form of reputation makes sense for you to learn things that normal people cannot.
I've always found it dumb with systems like wow where you needed to pay for a higher version of the same spell, even though the actual use in the game at the time made sense (different versions have different cast times/resource requirements etc). Unless they're providing a substantial difference in use or whatever, it kind of never made sense to me. For example, FFXI had different tiers of spells, but had different purposes for some, like Cure 1 was mostly used to wake people from sleep status once a higher form was learned and Cure 4 was mostly used to build threat as a tank. Different nuke levels had different threat levels which was very important to understand on fights like Nidhogg where you had to deal with an enrage timer but threat could easily build up on magic bursting mages if they weren't paying attention. Can't dps if you're dead and wasting time waiting for someone to unweaken during an AoE heavy fight is pretty silly too.
Does not matter what you say
Its what it is ..
A higher LEVEL skill that does more Damage/Projectile/Heal/ etc..
Its still LEVELING the skill
Obvious though your point may be I think you're wasting your breath.
Someone in this thread already tried to tall me RPGs are not about progression they're jut about playing a role and you could have degeneration instead.
Great game that would be: the more you play the worse at it you are. You'd probably need to get all your raiding in the first week.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Ohh neat ..
So you can beat a Lvl 1 Orc with X in all those Stats
Now tell us how you beat a LvL 30 Orc with Stats increased x 30 ..
Remember you have no increase in Power or Level ..
Go ...
Bring more friends.....
LOl... You will have a hard time finding any , as
NOONE will play that game , where you have no Progression in Gear/Skill/Stats/Power..
Your are basically the same toon from the day you create till you UNINSTALL
which in this example , wont be long..
If your best answer is bring more friends its weak and inefective
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Ohh neat ..
So you can beat a Lvl 1 Orc with X in all those Stats
Now tell us how you beat a LvL 30 Orc with Stats increased x 30 ..
Remember you have no increase in Power or Level ..
Go ...
Bring more friends.....
LOl... You will have a hard time finding any , as
NOONE will play that game , where you have no Progression in Gear/Skill/Stats/Power..
Your are basically the same toon from the day you create till you UNINSTALL
which in this example , wont be long..
If your best answer is bring more friends its weak and inefective
Thats where you are wrong.
Horizontal progression is what I'm arguing for. My stats will still change, my skills will still change, my gear will still change. I just won't be more powerful overall, compared to when I first started.
As to my argument being weak.....well, its exactly the way existing MMORPGs work. What do you do when you encounter an enemy with 30x more stats than a normal mob? You bring your friends and call it a raid. Seems to work pretty well
The only real counter I can think of to 'experience' is just making progression focused around money. Personally, it does sound more appealing to me that I can just pay a trainer to learn certain secrets without needing the 'experience' to do so. Maybe even make it attached to a 'karma' system which some people will probably just think is another form of 'leveling' but I feel like if things make 'sense' within the game world, the labels should matter less. If I'm building fame with a group/city/etc, it should open up more options for me.
Using currency to purchase better LEVELS of skills
Is Leveling the coin now becomes the XP needed to advance skill
Sword - 6-18 damage
Sword II - 12-36 damage cost 3300 Gold to advance
You are leveling skills
Notice that I never said LEVELS of skills, just skills. I do think more games need modifiers to skills though. For example, lets say you pay a trainer to learn how to cast a basic fireball, then you pay that trainer the ability to shoot more than 1 fireball at the same time.
Some people would even find it more appealing to do a quest in order to find some kind of secret lost art to modify something. If you think about it in a more 'realistic' sense, either paying or build up through some form of reputation makes sense for you to learn things that normal people cannot.
I've always found it dumb with systems like wow where you needed to pay for a higher version of the same spell, even though the actual use in the game at the time made sense (different versions have different cast times/resource requirements etc). Unless they're providing a substantial difference in use or whatever, it kind of never made sense to me. For example, FFXI had different tiers of spells, but had different purposes for some, like Cure 1 was mostly used to wake people from sleep status once a higher form was learned and Cure 4 was mostly used to build threat as a tank. Different nuke levels had different threat levels which was very important to understand on fights like Nidhogg where you had to deal with an enrage timer but threat could easily build up on magic bursting mages if they weren't paying attention. Can't dps if you're dead and wasting time waiting for someone to unweaken during an AoE heavy fight is pretty silly too.
Does not matter what you say
Its what it is ..
A higher LEVEL skill that does more Damage/Projectile/Heal/ etc..
Its still LEVELING the skill
Obvious though your point may be I think you're wasting your breath.
Someone in this thread already tried to tall me RPGs are not about progression they're jut about playing a role and you could have degeneration instead.
Great game that would be: the more you play the worse at it you are. You'd probably need to get all your raiding in the first week.
Lol, I think we should all just agree to disagree because I feel like you guys are talking about another subject. I am dead serious too. Like we aren't even talking about the same thing. When people's first idea of levelless MMORPG revolve around Second Life or WoW style games with no levels and you raiding immediately... you are speaking about another subject.
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Ohh neat ..
So you can beat a Lvl 1 Orc with X in all those Stats
Now tell us how you beat a LvL 30 Orc with Stats increased x 30 ..
Remember you have no increase in Power or Level ..
Go ...
Bring more friends.....
LOl... You will have a hard time finding any , as
NOONE will play that game , where you have no Progression in Gear/Skill/Stats/Power..
Your are basically the same toon from the day you create till you UNINSTALL
which in this example , wont be long..
If your best answer is bring more friends its weak and inefective
Thats where you are wrong.
Horizontal progression is what I'm arguing for. My stats will still change, my skills will still change, my gear will still change. I just won't be more powerful overall, compared to when I first started.
As to my argument being weak.....well, its exactly the way existing MMORPGs work. What do you do when you encounter an enemy with 30x more stats than a normal mob? You bring your friends and call it a raid. Seems to work pretty well
LMFAO stop , now you look silly ..
you said "No levels. No increase in power."
And yet now
you just Increased the LEVEL of your STATS
the LEVEL of your GEAR
the LEVEL of your Skills ..
LMFAO ... my god my ribs are hurting ...
Its all LEVELING ...
And Raid mobs are not what we were speaking of it was player vs a LvL 1 Orc , and Player vs Lvl 30 Orc .. Without an increase in "No levels. No increase in power."
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Ohh neat ..
So you can beat a Lvl 1 Orc with X in all those Stats
Now tell us how you beat a LvL 30 Orc with Stats increased x 30 ..
Remember you have no increase in Power or Level ..
Go ...
Bring more friends.....
LOl... You will have a hard time finding any , as
NOONE will play that game , where you have no Progression in Gear/Skill/Stats/Power..
Your are basically the same toon from the day you create till you UNINSTALL
which in this example , wont be long..
If your best answer is bring more friends its weak and inefective
Thats where you are wrong.
Horizontal progression is what I'm arguing for. My stats will still change, my skills will still change, my gear will still change. I just won't be more powerful overall, compared to when I first started.
As to my argument being weak.....well, its exactly the way existing MMORPGs work. What do you do when you encounter an enemy with 30x more stats than a normal mob? You bring your friends and call it a raid. Seems to work pretty well
LMFAO stop , now you look silly ..
you said "No levels. No increase in power."
And yet now
you just Increased the LEVEL of your STATS
the LEVEL of your GEAR
the LEVEL of your Skills ..
LMFAO ... my god my ribs are hurting ...
Its all LEVELING ...
And Raid mobs are not what we were speaking of it was player vs a VlV 1 Orc , and Player vs Lvl 30 Orc .. Without an increase in "No levels. No increase in power."
Funny shit ..
We've been down this road, I know you are unable to comprehend what horizontal progression is, so I won't bother trying to enlighten you again.
Also, I never said that I would "increase the level of my stats". I just said my stats would change. Never said increase.
Finally, you gave me the example, you didnt say it was 1v1, just "how would you beat". If you are explicitly saying 1v1 against a mob with 30x more power, I would quit that game because it would have been badly designed.
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Ohh neat ..
So you can beat a Lvl 1 Orc with X in all those Stats
Now tell us how you beat a LvL 30 Orc with Stats increased x 30 ..
Remember you have no increase in Power or Level ..
Go ...
Bring more friends.....
LOl... You will have a hard time finding any , as
NOONE will play that game , where you have no Progression in Gear/Skill/Stats/Power..
Your are basically the same toon from the day you create till you UNINSTALL
which in this example , wont be long..
If your best answer is bring more friends its weak and inefective
Thats where you are wrong.
Horizontal progression is what I'm arguing for. My stats will still change, my skills will still change, my gear will still change. I just won't be more powerful overall, compared to when I first started.
As to my argument being weak.....well, its exactly the way existing MMORPGs work. What do you do when you encounter an enemy with 30x more stats than a normal mob? You bring your friends and call it a raid. Seems to work pretty well
LMFAO stop , now you look silly ..
you said "No levels. No increase in power."
And yet now
you just Increased the LEVEL of your STATS
the LEVEL of your GEAR
the LEVEL of your Skills ..
LMFAO ... my god my ribs are hurting ...
Its all LEVELING ...
And Raid mobs are not what we were speaking of it was player vs a VlV 1 Orc , and Player vs Lvl 30 Orc .. Without an increase in "No levels. No increase in power."
Funny shit ..
We've been down this road, I know you are unable to comprehend what horizontal progression is, so I won't bother trying to enlighten you again.
Also, I never said that I would "increase the level of my stats". I just said my stats would change. Never said increase.
Finally, you gave me the example, you didnt say it was 1v1, just "how would you beat". If you are explicitly saying 1v1 against a mob with 30x more power, I would quit that game because it would have been badly designed.
What you just wrote means the level mechanic is just hidden but it is there because how else is the game deciding the dungeon difficulty. Your solution merely hides it from the player but the game is still based on levels. In the end data mining will reveal the levels and people will know what level the dungeon is versus the player. There is no difference between different difficulties and levels if in the end the mechanic uses the same metric.
How will you create a game like Everquest 2 which has all these types of mobs of different difficulty depending on whether you're solo, grouped or raid without using levels or some metric that will measure the player versus the content. That metric in the end is a form of level scaling. Give me a better example than what you have in your post.
Your example also makes it so you never can out-level or be under-level against something meaning it will be uniform throughout the game. Talk about boring. This is akin to how WoW decided the rat you met at level 3 is just as powerful when you come back at level 32. That grew old fast.
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Ohh neat ..
So you can beat a Lvl 1 Orc with X in all those Stats
Now tell us how you beat a LvL 30 Orc with Stats increased x 30 ..
Remember you have no increase in Power or Level ..
Go ...
Bring more friends.....
LOl... You will have a hard time finding any , as
NOONE will play that game , where you have no Progression in Gear/Skill/Stats/Power..
Your are basically the same toon from the day you create till you UNINSTALL
which in this example , wont be long..
If your best answer is bring more friends its weak and inefective
Thats where you are wrong.
Horizontal progression is what I'm arguing for. My stats will still change, my skills will still change, my gear will still change. I just won't be more powerful overall, compared to when I first started.
As to my argument being weak.....well, its exactly the way existing MMORPGs work. What do you do when you encounter an enemy with 30x more stats than a normal mob? You bring your friends and call it a raid. Seems to work pretty well
LMFAO stop , now you look silly ..
you said "No levels. No increase in power."
And yet now
you just Increased the LEVEL of your STATS
the LEVEL of your GEAR
the LEVEL of your Skills ..
LMFAO ... my god my ribs are hurting ...
Its all LEVELING ...
And Raid mobs are not what we were speaking of it was player vs a VlV 1 Orc , and Player vs Lvl 30 Orc .. Without an increase in "No levels. No increase in power."
Funny shit ..
We've been down this road, I know you are unable to comprehend what horizontal progression is, so I won't bother trying to enlighten you again.
Also, I never said that I would "increase the level of my stats". I just said my stats would change. Never said increase.
Finally, you gave me the example, you didnt say it was 1v1, just "how would you beat". If you are explicitly saying 1v1 against a mob with 30x more power, I would quit that game because it would have been badly designed.
see ya in 3 months we can do it again ..
And you cant enlighten me becasue its fucking bullshit you have never once been able to show a system without Leveling , and you demonstarted that here again today
Ok, I'll focus on stats alone, and not on gameplay, because levels (in the context of this thread) are purely about stats.
Lets assume that the game has been designed around horizontal progression, not vertical, so that a characters power level stays roughly the same from start to finish. No levels. No increase in power.
So, how do you design content with different difficulties using stats alone? If you can't just make the enemies a higher level, how do you make them more difficult using stats?
More health
More damage
More healing
More avoidance
More mitigation
More crit chance
More enemies at once
Exactly the same way they design enemies today, the only difference is your level and the enemies level don't exist, and therefore don't factor into the combat algorithms.
Thats before we even touch on the gameplay methods of making enemies easier or harder. Using stats to simulate difficulty sucks balls, it's extremely lazy and more often just results in a gear check. Gameplay is how to introduce difficulty (enemies have more skills, can kite, can call in reinforcements etc) in a meaninful way that actually challenges the player's ability to play the game.
Also, please note: this thread is only about removing levels from the player's characters. Its perfectly fine to keep enemy levels. So, if you are struggling to imagine how to make enemies difficult without simply giving them a higher level, then just imagine a game where enemies do still have levels, but the player is fixed at one level.
Ohh neat ..
So you can beat a Lvl 1 Orc with X in all those Stats
Now tell us how you beat a LvL 30 Orc with Stats increased x 30 ..
Remember you have no increase in Power or Level ..
Go ...
Bring more friends.....
LOl... You will have a hard time finding any , as
NOONE will play that game , where you have no Progression in Gear/Skill/Stats/Power..
Your are basically the same toon from the day you create till you UNINSTALL
which in this example , wont be long..
If your best answer is bring more friends its weak and inefective
Thats where you are wrong.
Horizontal progression is what I'm arguing for. My stats will still change, my skills will still change, my gear will still change. I just won't be more powerful overall, compared to when I first started.
As to my argument being weak.....well, its exactly the way existing MMORPGs work. What do you do when you encounter an enemy with 30x more stats than a normal mob? You bring your friends and call it a raid. Seems to work pretty well
LMFAO stop , now you look silly ..
you said "No levels. No increase in power."
And yet now
you just Increased the LEVEL of your STATS
the LEVEL of your GEAR
the LEVEL of your Skills ..
LMFAO ... my god my ribs are hurting ...
Its all LEVELING ...
And Raid mobs are not what we were speaking of it was player vs a VlV 1 Orc , and Player vs Lvl 30 Orc .. Without an increase in "No levels. No increase in power."
Funny shit ..
We've been down this road, I know you are unable to comprehend what horizontal progression is, so I won't bother trying to enlighten you again.
Also, I never said that I would "increase the level of my stats". I just said my stats would change. Never said increase.
Finally, you gave me the example, you didnt say it was 1v1, just "how would you beat". If you are explicitly saying 1v1 against a mob with 30x more power, I would quit that game because it would have been badly designed.
Wasted text honestly. I think he has a thrill out of this.
Horizontal progression is essentially shallow vertical progression. Your characters base grows little or at all. You growth is through new abilities(character or gear) and better gear. You aren't going to have 20k HP and mana. You aren't going to be turning into a god.
Progression length is not tied to progression method. Game design determines length of progression. Levels are progression. Progression is not always levels. Traditional levels are vertical progression with power gains on each level. Not all character levels grant combat power. Not all skills grant power.
Skill only games do not have traditional levels. There is no platform of power. A highly skilled magic user with no physically defense can not unmagically unaided take a beating from a mid skilled warrior. So regardless if you say it's all leveling there is a difference. Anything else is just wash to side track.
Haven't you guys heard of Everquest and the alternative advancement where you advance horizontally. It's been around for ages since Shadows of Luclin. An expansion in 2001.
Not something you thought up recently either it has been around for a long time.
Haven't you guys heard of Everquest and the alternative advancement where you advance horizontally. It's been around for ages since Shadows of Luclin. An expansion in 2001.
Not something you thought up recently either it has been around for a long time.
The discussion revolves around replacing the D&D based linear level progression system with horizontal or loadout systems. I thought we cleared this up many posts ago when the title was changed.
It wouldnt hurt to actually read the comments. There are systems that do not require linear D&D style level progression systems or have levels like UO has skill levels.
it is possible and ive already described it here.
you use a 3 role/archetype based system ( fighter/mage/rogue). Consider each one an end of a triangle. The triangle itself is akin to a map detailing all the knowledge of the game. Each one of the three represents a third of the triangle.
if you picked up a weapon, the weapon would be related to a specific role ( one of the three). This sends you down the road to learn the role the weapon exists in. Battleaxe would be in the realm of the fighter role.
There are no skillpoints. Using the axe will not raise your skill with axes. You will not get any experience for killing things with the axe.
instead there is a dedicated book in the world you can seek out which will give you the knowledge to create a training device which when built and used confers a unique advantage or perk.
This is not the only way to get the knowledge though. In the background we have an algorithm that keeps track of different events that your character might experience while playing the game. So if you cant find the book the algorithm is like an insurance policy to ensure you will eventually get it. It will consider factors such as whether or not you used the axe, what you killed with it, whether someone in your group also has an axe, maybe you were killed with an axe and so on. Depending on the perk there might be a number of factors considered. The simplest one might just require you to pick up the weapon and use it. More complex ones might require more events. These events are the expected actions for playing your role.
A spell would work the same way. You can find a spellbook but you can also get it another way. Maybe youve been hit with the spell or someone in the group is using it. It would take that into account and you might learn it without ever getting the book. This is just the basic skill/spell though and like your character would have slots you can fill to personalize your spells.
So your character is a loadout where you collect a number of perks and deploy them. You can collect them all but cannot use them all at the same time. Each role has its own perks and some perks at the boundaries of two roles could have requirements from 2 roles at the same time.
The idea is to provide a better overall estimation of your entire playing experience rather than you just kill stuff, get levels, get stuff.
Now you search for the books and play your role(s) and it will come naturally. While your searching for the books your also searching for the skill/spell books and like your character you can learn them without the book based on your overall play. At the same time your collecting your equipment, which like the character and skills/spells would also be able to be personalized.
You will gain power but you will never gain a level. The perks are cumulative and you have a cap as to how many you can deploy at a time, same for your skills/spells and same for your equipment.
no levels required. Its a loadout system. Its designed to provide maximum content because you can collect it all but only deploy a small portion of it. Since the roles exist in a continuum you can combine roles to a degree based on your preference.
I use a base system because I like the idea that I can build the training simulators like an archery range and be able to use them with other characters thus all characters after the first one are much easier. I can also share them with my friends and maybe they might learn that knowledge easier for having used it. It also adds a content layer because you will need resources to build these things over and above what you might need for equipment or spells.
thats how I make a system that doesnt feature traditional levels but has progression none the less in the form of a number of player loadouts.
I like games with loads of classes and skills that distinguish them from each other. There is no excitement in a game you have described in my opinion because it makes people gravitate towards certain skills and ends up becoming mundane. Pretty generic. I also like D&D based games.
Comments
I hate the Dragon Ball Z crap most RPGs have. You're level 70 and can one shot the level 50 destroyer of galaxies two expansion ago. But this new wolf model in the newest expansion will now will one shot because it's level 80 and you're 70.
almost all mmos use the D&D method but not all. ESO for instance has a loadout method for gear and a scaling method for levels to normalize all players. Its actually not that bad all things considered.
I feel that the Traditional D&D level can be removed and replaced with a better and modern system that uses algorithms to parse your entire experience thereby dramatically increasing your ability to play your way. Whether its efficient or not is your problem.
Obviously you dont learn much about axes without an axe in your hand but with my system the Algorithm will know if you grouped with someone who used an axe, if you were hit with an axe, if you died with an axe in your hand, if you killed things with an axe, if you chopped a tree with the axe. From there it will determine if your now worthy of knowledge which you can use to build a training simulator which you can then use to gain some kind of unique perk related directly or indirectly to axes.
show me what game has done that.
One reason why I don't like traditional levels. Even if you keep levels I think they should be a metric and trigger for subtle growth, new skills and abilities. Not the Dragon Ball Z method we have now.
Bring more friends.....
Someone in this thread already tried to tall me RPGs are not about progression they're jut about playing a role and you could have degeneration instead.
Great game that would be: the more you play the worse at it you are. You'd probably need to get all your raiding in the first week.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
see ya in 3 months we can do it again ..
And you cant enlighten me becasue its fucking bullshit you have never once been able to show a system without Leveling , and you demonstarted that here again today
Horizontal progression is essentially shallow vertical progression. Your characters base grows little or at all. You growth is through new abilities(character or gear) and better gear. You aren't going to have 20k HP and mana. You aren't going to be turning into a god.
Progression length is not tied to progression method. Game design determines length of progression. Levels are progression. Progression is not always levels. Traditional levels are vertical progression with power gains on each level. Not all character levels grant combat power. Not all skills grant power.
Skill only games do not have traditional levels. There is no platform of power. A highly skilled magic user with no physically defense can not unmagically unaided take a beating from a mid skilled warrior. So regardless if you say it's all leveling there is a difference. Anything else is just wash to side track.
Not something you thought up recently either it has been around for a long time.
https://everquest.fandom.com/wiki/Alternate_Advancement
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/29kniv/alternate_advancement_why_has_it_never_been/
A discussion on why it hasn't been reproduced. Interesting discussion have a read.
It wouldnt hurt to actually read the comments. There are systems that do not require linear D&D style level progression systems or have levels like UO has skill levels.
it is possible and ive already described it here.
you use a 3 role/archetype based system ( fighter/mage/rogue). Consider each one an end of a triangle. The triangle itself is akin to a map detailing all the knowledge of the game. Each one of the three represents a third of the triangle.
if you picked up a weapon, the weapon would be related to a specific role ( one of the three). This sends you down the road to learn the role the weapon exists in. Battleaxe would be in the realm of the fighter role.
There are no skillpoints. Using the axe will not raise your skill with axes. You will not get any experience for killing things with the axe.
instead there is a dedicated book in the world you can seek out which will give you the knowledge to create a training device which when built and used confers a unique advantage or perk.
This is not the only way to get the knowledge though. In the background we have an algorithm that keeps track of different events that your character might experience while playing the game. So if you cant find the book the algorithm is like an insurance policy to ensure you will eventually get it. It will consider factors such as whether or not you used the axe, what you killed with it, whether someone in your group also has an axe, maybe you were killed with an axe and so on. Depending on the perk there might be a number of factors considered. The simplest one might just require you to pick up the weapon and use it. More complex ones might require more events. These events are the expected actions for playing your role.
A spell would work the same way. You can find a spellbook but you can also get it another way. Maybe youve been hit with the spell or someone in the group is using it. It would take that into account and you might learn it without ever getting the book. This is just the basic skill/spell though and like your character would have slots you can fill to personalize your spells.
So your character is a loadout where you collect a number of perks and deploy them. You can collect them all but cannot use them all at the same time. Each role has its own perks and some perks at the boundaries of two roles could have requirements from 2 roles at the same time.
The idea is to provide a better overall estimation of your entire playing experience rather than you just kill stuff, get levels, get stuff.
Now you search for the books and play your role(s) and it will come naturally. While your searching for the books your also searching for the skill/spell books and like your character you can learn them without the book based on your overall play. At the same time your collecting your equipment, which like the character and skills/spells would also be able to be personalized.
You will gain power but you will never gain a level. The perks are cumulative and you have a cap as to how many you can deploy at a time, same for your skills/spells and same for your equipment.
no levels required. Its a loadout system. Its designed to provide maximum content because you can collect it all but only deploy a small portion of it. Since the roles exist in a continuum you can combine roles to a degree based on your preference.
I use a base system because I like the idea that I can build the training simulators like an archery range and be able to use them with other characters thus all characters after the first one are much easier. I can also share them with my friends and maybe they might learn that knowledge easier for having used it. It also adds a content layer because you will need resources to build these things over and above what you might need for equipment or spells.
thats how I make a system that doesnt feature traditional levels but has progression none the less in the form of a number of player loadouts.