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Is "Leveling" dead?

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,129
    Is leveling dead?

    ESO, WoW, FF14, and Lineage have entered the chat.
    tzervoIselinUngoodKyleranAlBQuirky
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Mars_OMGMars_OMG Member EpicPosts: 3,311
    no.
    tzervoAlBQuirky
    - abandoning social media could possibly save the world.  
    #RestoreTheSnyderVerse 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,717
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use.  However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development.  For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests.  You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice.  For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc.  So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play.  Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
    Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.

    I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc,  and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.

    Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".

    You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.

    Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.

    This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.

    After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.

    You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
    and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.

    I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.

    If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.

    you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
    KyleranUngoodtzervo
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,498
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use.  However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development.  For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests.  You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice.  For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc.  So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play.  Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
    Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.

    I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc,  and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.

    Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".

    You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.

    Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.

    This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.

    After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.

    You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
    and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.

    I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.

    If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.

    you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
    Well yeah, just like if you play smart you can almost totally avoid being someone else's content in EVE, people do it regularly, but there's always more "reasons" why people won't play it, even I do the same.

    You can talk yourself out of playing any game if you try hard enough.

    ;)


    TorvalScorchientzervoAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • olepiolepi Member RarePosts: 1,555
    I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt. I don't enjoy raiding that much. PvP can be fun, but I'm not willing to grind enough to be really competitive.

    RPGs and MMORPGs are some of my favorite games, and for me the fun is seeing how a character built *like this* plays. I also like world immersion, just being in the world is part of the fun.
    IselinTorvalAlBQuirky

    ------------
    2020: 43 years on the Net.


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,396
    olepi said:
    I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt... 
    I do the same. I even go so far as to level in the same zones, even though I have other choices, just to get a good feel for how capable my alt build is compared to my memory of the previous one I took through the same content.

    Repetitious I know, but satisfying my curiosity about relative build strengths and weaknesses trumps the repetitive game play for me.
    TorvalAlBQuirkyAbimortzervo
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • TokkenTokken Member RarePosts: 2,658
    edited April 10
    For me, leveling is how I like to progress. It's the "carrot on the stick" for me! It motivates me to get there.
    Post edited by Tokken on
    AlBQuirky
    Make PvE GREAT Again!
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use.  However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development.  For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests.  You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice.  For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc.  So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play.  Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
    Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.

    I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc,  and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.

    Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".

    You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.

    Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.

    This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.

    After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.

    You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
    and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.

    I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.

    If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.

    you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
    That's like saying "You can eat the crust".. Thank you for the offer, but, Still hard pass, you enjoy tho.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.

    I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc,  and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.

    Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".

    You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.

    Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.

    This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.

    After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.

    You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
    and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.

    I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.

    If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.

    you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
    Well yeah, just like if you play smart you can almost totally avoid being someone else's content in EVE, people do it regularly, but there's always more "reasons" why people won't play it, even I do the same.

    You can talk yourself out of playing any game if you try hard enough.

    ;)
    Actually every game goes in reverse of this, where every game you opt to play, you have to talk yourself into playing it.

    I mean even if we remove things like Cost, ergo, buying the game, paying a sub and all this, even if we didn't discuss the fiscal walls to getting into a new game, and lets just go with the fact that you have the hardware and software already set up to accommodate the additional games as well, so these are no longer walls, which ordinally are things every gamer has to weigh into when they opt to play a new game, even more so, if the game has a high wall to entry, like a box fee, or a needed sub. So, lets say, as a gamer, you have already talked yourself INTO these investments.

    Because that is what you need to do with every new game.. Talk yourself into playing them, giving them a try.

    Even after all the above, You still have to justify taking time away from some other part of your life to play this game. Be that family time, sleep, other games you might be playing, this new game will take up a chunk of time that will need to be taken from some other events you have going on in your life currently.

    And you will need to talk yourself into making those changes to play that game. And the more things about said game that might not appeal to you, the harder it is to talk yourself into playing it, especially if you have some other games you are already enjoying, or maybe taken up a whole different hobby and opted to lay off gaming as a whole.

    As far as leaving a game goes, I was reading a article that most MMO players admit to playing a game long after they have ceased to enjoy playing it. Which means, they are not talking themselves out of a game, they already want to leave it, they have already passed the point of not-having fun. So it's really a matter of finally getting fed up enough to the point that whatever was driving you away, exceeded what was holding you to the game.

    So you're not really talking yourself out of anything, when you need to sit down and talk yourself out of something, that means you are enjoying it or want it, and are trying to justify not doing it.
    tzervoAlBQuirkycheyane
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,694
    edited April 8
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    Skill training is basically leveling by a different mechanism.  I would call it player customized leveling.  

    Can be just as grindy.
    But quite often much easier to macro.

    Seems to quite common in skill based games which increase while doing, get out there and punch some bushes.

    ;)
    Exactly how players trained weapons in WoW at launch, an likely again with "Classic."

    I certainly did! In both cases. I enjoyed it. It gave me the choice of which weapons to specialize in or which to concentrate in. When WoW did away with this practice, I was disappointed :(
    tzervo

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,412
    Iselin said:
    olepi said:
    I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt... 
    I do the same. I even go so far as to level in the same zones, even though I have other choices, just to get a good feel for how capable my alt build is compared to my memory of the previous one I took through the same content.

    Repetitious I know, but satisfying my curiosity about relative build strengths and weaknesses trumps the repetitive game play for me.
    I don't see the point.  You can't even pvp unless you reach max level.  And most group content is off limit unless you hit max level.  To me max level is when the journey started.
    AlBQuirky
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,819
    Journey is definitely my pick over the end. I am doing Heritage quests now in Everquest 2 and man those are some long ass quests but I simply love the whole trip and the reward isn't even the reason to do them for me at least. 
    UngoodAlBQuirky
    Chamber of Chains
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 175
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    AlBQuirkytzervo
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,498
    Rungar said:
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    There are a number of games with endless leveling....weird
    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,694
    Kyleran said:
    Rungar said:
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    There are a number of games with endless leveling....weird

    Pardon my ignorance, but there are? What are they like?
    tzervo

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,396
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    Rungar said:
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    There are a number of games with endless leveling....weird

    Pardon my ignorance, but there are? What are they like?
    ESO for one. It's not truly endless but 3600 passive points after max level make it practically so.

    They got that idea, I'm sure, from Diablo 3 and its truly endless Paragon points system.
    AlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • AbimorAbimor Member UncommonPosts: 661
    Iselin said:
    olepi said:
    I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt... 
    I do the same. I even go so far as to level in the same zones, even though I have other choices, just to get a good feel for how capable my alt build is compared to my memory of the previous one I took through the same content.

    Repetitious I know, but satisfying my curiosity about relative build strengths and weaknesses trumps the repetitive game play for me.
    I'm not going to lie I have 12 lvl capped guys on ESO 11 of them are in the same faction I have one that was different so there are whole zones that I never went to for quite awhile. 
    AlBQuirkyTorval
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,396
    Abimor said:
    Iselin said:
    olepi said:
    I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt... 
    I do the same. I even go so far as to level in the same zones, even though I have other choices, just to get a good feel for how capable my alt build is compared to my memory of the previous one I took through the same content.

    Repetitious I know, but satisfying my curiosity about relative build strengths and weaknesses trumps the repetitive game play for me.
    I'm not going to lie I have 12 lvl capped guys on ESO 11 of them are in the same faction I have one that was different so there are whole zones that I never went to for quite awhile. 
    I have that many max level too - all of them in the Aldmeri Dominion. I know Auridon like the back of my hand :)
    AlBQuirkyTorval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 175
    Iselin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    Rungar said:
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    There are a number of games with endless leveling....weird

    Pardon my ignorance, but there are? What are they like?
    ESO for one. It's not truly endless but 3600 passive points after max level make it practically so.

    They got that idea, I'm sure, from Diablo 3 and its truly endless Paragon points system.
    Yea i still havent re-allocated my points. Good job zos. 
    AlBQuirky
  • eoloeeoloe Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Po_gg said:
    eoloe said:
    No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games.  
    "Popularized by D&D", that's kinda backwards and makes no sense :)  (since D&D has started all)

    Agree on the other two, the cheap and combat-focused digital porting I'm bashing too since the '90s, and yep, leveling is not the backbone, progression is.
    Besides roleplay, ofc, but that should be obvious.
    eoloe said:
    Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...
    Yep, and that's how it was in D&D as well... levels weren't the goal, more of a difficulty setting. A level 9 party could face more challenging adventures than a level 3 party.
    And it wasn't a fast track (at least not with good GMs around), you could have month-long sessions whilst on the same level.
    Nope, level system of D&D wasn't immersion-breaking, it was actually pretty good for its time.


    Probably that's why I'm a story-focused player till this day, and love to explore/get lost in the worlds, I've had really good GMs back in the day and got into RPGs with the mindset of "chasing character power increases is NOT the goal".

    Progress the world itself through adventures and stories, progress the character itself through experiences (in the sense of what movie critics used to call "character development"), progress the party (making bonds and friendships), etc., THAT's how we've played RPG at the tables.
    When Amber came to the scene, we even got rid of the dice :) 
    Pure roleplaying.

    Maybe it is my lack of English skills here, but for D&D being the starter, that was exactly my point.

    Roleplay should be the obvious backbone, but often it is not. Even on tabletop I knew so many players addicted to leveling up / gearing up. It is just an expected evolution to see the same in the digital world, if not even more. As a matter of fact often in MMORPGs, classes are just systems dedicated to be optimized through builds.

    Is the leveling system in D&D immersion-breaking? That could be discussed. But I meant its translation in MMORPGs where zones are split by levels, with mobs matching that level. And the mechanic that tells you, ok you reached that level, now move to the next zone! Also is the speed at which levels are crossed from 0 to hero... And I could go on.

    Amber... did not play it much... Sadly, because I had huge twisted plans for my character :)


    Po_ggAlBQuirky
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,209
    Rungar said:
    I think mmo's need to end their association with rpg's and start a new romance with survival type games. 
    I agree. Valheim is a new popular multiplayer Survival game, yet it dont have character levels. It still has a progression system. Character levels aren't needed for a MMO with a large open game world and lore dont need levels as proven by Guildwars2 since they been telling a story over 2 expansions now and not a single new level was added.
    AlBQuirky

    image

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,559
    edited April 12
    eoloe said:
    Po_gg said:
    "Popularized by D&D", that's kinda backwards and makes no sense :)  (since D&D has started all)
    Maybe it is my lack of English skills here, but for D&D being the starter, that was exactly my point.
    [...]
    Amber... did not play it much... Sadly, because I had huge twisted plans for my character
    Or maybe it's the lack of mine :)  (not a native speaker here)
    I was agreeing mostly, and only had slight issues with that word... so it's basically just a minor semantic issue of mine.

    As I know / translate "popularize", it doesn't fit to that case since it was the starting point. It's more like: "Wow popularised the Wow formulae", -> there are games before, most elements existed too here and there, but after Wow there's the spike of Wow-clones.

    D&D didn't popularise levels, it started the whole format and games after just took over the system. The experimentations with putting levels aside have started though pretty soon - first with "fun" and/or "home-made" games like Paranoia or Gallia, later in more serious games like the Hero engine.


    But, ofc it's maybe just me totally misinterpret a word...

    What twisted plans? Smells like a Logrus-user to me :)

    tzervoAlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 175
    Kyleran said:
    Skill training is basically leveling by a different mechanism.  I would call it player customized leveling.  

    Can be just as grindy.
    But quite often much easier to macro.

    Seems to quite common in skill based games which increase while doing, get out there and punch some bushes.

    ;)
    I totally agree which is why i wouldnt have either traditional levels or skill based levels. They simply arent necessary and are obsolete compared to the base development model.

    -no points to "allocate". If you want a certain skill or attribute, find the resources  you need and install it instead. Then share it with your friends. 
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,694
    Po_gg said:
    eoloe said:
    Po_gg said:
    "Popularized by D&D", that's kinda backwards and makes no sense :)  (since D&D has started all)
    Maybe it is my lack of English skills here, but for D&D being the starter, that was exactly my point.
    [...]
    Amber... did not play it much... Sadly, because I had huge twisted plans for my character
    Or maybe it's the lack of mine :)  (not a native speaker here)
    I was agreeing mostly, and only had slight issues with that word... so it's basically just a minor semantic issue of mine.

    As I know / translate "popularize", it doesn't fit to that case since it was the starting point. It's more like: "Wow popularised the Wow formulae", -> there are games before, most elements existed too here and there, but after Wow there's the spike of Wow-clones.

    D&D didn't popularise levels, it started the whole format and games after just took over the system. The experimentations with putting levels aside have started though pretty soon - first with "fun" and/or "home-made" games like Paranoia or Gallia, later in more serious games like the Hero engine.


    But, ofc it's maybe just me totally misinterpret a word...

    What twisted plans? Smells like a Logrus-user to me :)


    If I may jump in here a moment :)

    "Popularize" is what D&D did. It has gone through many variations in its nearly 50 years of existence. It was started by a group of guys who shared the hobby of miniature battle simulations. They wanted to be the heroes in those battles. My point is that D&D helped start tabletop RPGs and made helped make them popular. It went through many ups and downs and today has outlasted many other systems.

    In the game, players started off having to go an actual trainer so leveling was roleplayed. That happens now only if the DM and players decide it will. This part is lost in video games were a level may mean insta-health/mana replenishment, auto skill-ups, and spells that just appear in your book. Immersion breaking? It certainly can be, especially for the players who can't wait to move forward.

    That's all. I just wanted to chime here :)
    tzervoPo_ggTorval

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,209
    Po_gg said:
    Rungar said:
    are you sick of "levelling" yet? I am.  
    Nope, progression is pretty much the core of RPG.

    If you mean the actual leveling mechanics (without the quote-unquote), still a nope for me. I've played pretty much every kind of level-based, skill-based, entirely levelless, etc. games out there (both tabletop and cRPG), and I'm fine with all of them until there's a good story, a world to explore, and a sort of progression.
    Progression and character levels are not the same. Valheim has no character levels but real progression. 
    KyleranAlBQuirky

    image

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