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Is "Leveling" dead?

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,498
    Tried EVE (PC) a few times, but the pure real time gated skill training was a hard pass for me.  Ridiculous concept IMO.

    Whereas being time challenged I thought the system to be quite brilliant, kept me on par with everyone else regardless how much I played.


    TwistedSister77AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,498
    edited April 6
    Po_gg said:
    Mendel said:
    One other factor with EVE's skill system, there is absolutely no way to catch up to anyone who's been playing longer -- they will always have more skill than you.  Good in theory, not-so-good in practice.  It can be very frustrating.
    Actually that was "fixed" a few years ago - unfortunately...
    Skill injectors, you can now buy your way/time ahead, with real money (or ISK).
    The cap on skills means it doesn't matter if others have been playing longer, take mining for instance, my characters are all at level cap so no one in the game can out perform me on basis of skill training.

    Same holds for PVP, the big limiter in any fight is my lack of skill, but definitely not on the part of my characters.

    One caveat, it takes years of skill training to reach this point, unless of course one buys skill injectors to speed up the process.



    Po_ggAlBQuirkytzervo

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    edited April 7
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use.  However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development.  For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests.  You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice.  For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc.  So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play.  Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
    Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.

    I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc,  and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.

    Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".

    You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.

    Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.

    This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.

    After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.

    You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
    and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.

    I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.

    If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,742
    If you spend a week trying to level and you get a drop that is a noticable upgrade you're going to like leveling as opposed to getting fast levels and spewed constant mediocre gear then you won't like leveling because it feels pointless. It's the way modern games leveling design that makes people not want to level.
    AlBQuirky

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,310
    Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    bcbully said:
    Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
    Kinda like subs! 
    KyleranAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,559
    eoloe said:
    No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games.  
    "Popularized by D&D", that's kinda backwards and makes no sense :)  (since D&D has started all)

    Agree on the other two, the cheap and combat-focused digital porting I'm bashing too since the '90s, and yep, leveling is not the backbone, progression is.
    Besides roleplay, ofc, but that should be obvious.
    eoloe said:
    Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...
    Yep, and that's how it was in D&D as well... levels weren't the goal, more of a difficulty setting. A level 9 party could face more challenging adventures than a level 3 party.
    And it wasn't a fast track (at least not with good GMs around), you could have month-long sessions whilst on the same level.
    Nope, level system of D&D wasn't immersion-breaking, it was actually pretty good for its time.


    Probably that's why I'm a story-focused player till this day, and love to explore/get lost in the worlds, I've had really good GMs back in the day and got into RPGs with the mindset of "chasing character power increases is NOT the goal".

    Progress the world itself through adventures and stories, progress the character itself through experiences (in the sense of what movie critics used to call "character development"), progress the party (making bonds and friendships), etc., THAT's how we've played RPG at the tables.
    When Amber came to the scene, we even got rid of the dice :) 
    Pure roleplaying.
    AlBQuirky
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,044
    modern leveling in MMOs is non immersive.  Boosts are a terrible addition to TBC.
    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,498
    edited April 7
    bcbully said:
    Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
    Yet the four or five most popular MMORPGs in the market today use levels (and quests) in some fashion, go figure.

    Ungood said:
    bcbully said:
    Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
    Kinda like subs! 
    Yet again those same 4 or 5 games I mentioned employ a subscription in some manner, weird.

    How many MMORPGs released since 2005 without levels or subs have been even mildly successful?   A handful at best, sort of like games with levels / subs actually.

    I think there might be a few (sic) more factors which lead the market to where it is today and eliminating either or both won't breath new life into it.

    Here's a test, EVE is a well made MMORPG which is actively being developed which has no questing to level or mandatory subs, so why aren't you both playing it? (Come to think of it, why am I no longer playing?)

    Oh yeah, other "reasons" come to mind, but certainly nothing to do with the two mentioned here.

    AlBQuirkyTorval

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 175
    edited April 7
    actually it has more to do with the fantasy theme as opposed to levels. Players overwhelmingly prefer the fantasy theme to any other theme for a mmo. Look at any mmo that has ever existed. Even star wars has a rough ride and thats a huge name. Fallout will never be as popular as Elder Scrolls. 

    players will usually choose the fantasy theme over the science fiction, over and over again. Unfortunately almost all the offerings are "standard" level grinders but the success of games like Valheim shows that players want more than levels. They want to build bases, extensive crafting, worlds that can change or be modified. 

    EQnext was on the right track before it got scuttled but that technology will be viable soon.   
    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,694
    eoloe said:
    Leveling is the syndrome of starting as a boy and becoming a hero, which is good in the teenager's psyche but sad for grown ups.

    No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games. 

    The backbone of RPG is not "level" but "Role" (the "R" in R.P.G), which means playing a role in character and not being the group "healer", DPS, or "Tank".

    Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...

    Can you name one that does not involve numbers of some kind?

    Why is Iron better leather?
    Why is steel better iron?
    How does one improve their craft mastery?
    Do attributes count? (Strength, Intelligence, Dexterity...)

    Even in the "real world", we go through grade school, (used to be) junior high school, high school, college/university. Then you get to advanced degrees for more "progress." You discover new land and "progress through the world", yes?

    Progress is in essence just advancement. In "game terms" that means simply numbers. Luckily, MMORPGs do NOT start us out as children (I think) :)
    Po_ggScotUngoodtzervoKyleranTorval

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 175
    AlBQuirky said:
    eoloe said:
    Leveling is the syndrome of starting as a boy and becoming a hero, which is good in the teenager's psyche but sad for grown ups.

    No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games. 

    The backbone of RPG is not "level" but "Role" (the "R" in R.P.G), which means playing a role in character and not being the group "healer", DPS, or "Tank".

    Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...

    Can you name one that does not involve numbers of some kind?

    Why is Iron better leather?
    Why is steel better iron?
    How does one improve their craft mastery?
    Do attributes count? (Strength, Intelligence, Dexterity...)

    Even in the "real world", we go through grade school, (used to be) junior high school, high school, college/university. Then you get to advanced degrees for more "progress." You discover new land and "progress through the world", yes?

    Progress is in essence just advancement. In "game terms" that means simply numbers. Luckily, MMORPGs do NOT start us out as children (I think) :)
    This is where the lazy comes into play. We know that everything goes by the numbers in the end, but its their job to hide much of this within the gameplay. That being said iron doesnt have to be better than leather. Leather could be much faster and lighter than iron. all things can have specific advantages and disadvantages. Its really up to the developers to make these interactions strategic rather than linear. 
    AlBQuirkytzervo
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
    Yet the four or five most popular MMORPGs in the market today use levels (and quests) in some fashion, go figure.

    Ungood said:
    bcbully said:
    Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
    Kinda like subs! 
    Yet again those same 4 or 5 games I mentioned employ a subscription in some manner, weird.

    How many MMORPGs released since 2005 without levels or subs have been even mildly successful?   A handful at best, sort of like games with levels / subs actually.

    I think there might be a few (sic) more factors which lead the market to where it is today and eliminating either or both won't breath new life into it.

    Here's a test, EVE is a well made MMORPG which is actively being developed which has no questing to level or mandatory subs, so why aren't you both playing it? (Come to think of it, why am I no longer playing?)

    Oh yeah, other "reasons" come to mind, but certainly nothing to do with the two mentioned here.

    For the same reason I am not playing UO, I am not someone else's content.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,694
    edited April 7
    Rungar said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    eoloe said:
    Leveling is the syndrome of starting as a boy and becoming a hero, which is good in the teenager's psyche but sad for grown ups.

    No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games. 

    The backbone of RPG is not "level" but "Role" (the "R" in R.P.G), which means playing a role in character and not being the group "healer", DPS, or "Tank".

    Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...

    Can you name one that does not involve numbers of some kind?

    Why is Iron better leather?
    Why is steel better iron?
    How does one improve their craft mastery?
    Do attributes count? (Strength, Intelligence, Dexterity...)

    Even in the "real world", we go through grade school, (used to be) junior high school, high school, college/university. Then you get to advanced degrees for more "progress." You discover new land and "progress through the world", yes?

    Progress is in essence just advancement. In "game terms" that means simply numbers. Luckily, MMORPGs do NOT start us out as children (I think) :)
    This is where the lazy comes into play. We know that everything goes by the numbers in the end, but its their job to hide much of this within the gameplay. That being said iron doesnt have to be better than leather. Leather could be much faster and lighter than iron. all things can have specific advantages and disadvantages. Its really up to the developers to make these interactions strategic rather than linear. 
    You make some good points. I would also like to see "less concrete numbers" in descriptions. Descriptors like solid vs flexible, faster vs slower, weightier vs lighter.

    I'm not "well-versed" in all MMOs, but in EQ1 there was a chance with each crafting attempt your skill could improve. It was an RNG roll. I'd like to see factors like bonuses/minuses adjust that roll so that it's not a matter of craft "X" a specified number and gain an improvement.

    It's not a perfect system. Nothing is. My "perfect" is probably not your "perfect" or anyone eles's "perfect." But game making is a marriage of reality and fun :)
    Po_ggUngood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 175
    I think there is a numbers sweetspot. You want the minimum numbers required so people understand but you need a certain amount or it turns players off. Similarly too much stats turns people off as well. Knowing where that line is, is the difference between a mediocre designer and a great designer. 

    to me, as long as its situational rather than incremental, they are already on the right road for a persistent world. 

    AlBQuirky
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,039
    edited April 7
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    bcbully said:
    Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
    Kinda like subs! 
    Yet again those same 4 or 5 games I mentioned employ a subscription in some manner, weird.
    I think it is not a matter of "they are top because they have subs" but the inverse: "they can demand subs because they are top".
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 175
    tzervo said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    bcbully said:
    Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
    Kinda like subs! 
    Yet again those same 4 or 5 games I mentioned employ a subscription in some manner, weird.
    I think it is not a matter of "they are top because they have subs" but the inverse: "they can demand subs because they are top".
    Are they top because they are good or are they top because people are bored as shit and have nothing better to do with their time. For those who like mmos, competition is very weak and the result is more weak products. 

    until some nobody turns over the table, of course. 
    AlBQuirky
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,396
    Kyleran said:
    Skill training is basically leveling by a different mechanism.  I would call it player customized leveling.  

    Can be just as grindy.
    But quite often much easier to macro.

    Seems to quite common in skill based games which increase while doing, get out there and punch some bushes.

    ;)
    Exactly how players trained weapons in WoW at launch, an likely again with "Classic."
    AlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,396
    edited April 7
    So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?

    Oh... and Valheim rules.

    :)
    KyleranTorvalAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 175
    Iselin said:
    So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?

    Oh... and Valheim rules.

    :)
    You might have missed one or two things. 

    Yes skill based levelling sucks if it causes you to pound a tree for 3 days. We all pretty much agree to that. Why even have it? 

    I dont know about the subs. They were always pretty fair all things considered. 

    Valheim is an unfinished early access game but even with 5 fucking developers... you can see that good ideas and attention to detail trumps millions of dollars and shareholder's sons designers.
    AlBQuirky
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,396
    Rungar said:
    Iselin said:
    So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?

    Oh... and Valheim rules.

    :)
    You might have missed one or two things. 

    Yes skill based levelling sucks if it causes you to pound a tree for 3 days. We all pretty much agree to that. Why even have it? 

    I dont know about the subs. They were always pretty fair all things considered. 

    Valheim is an unfinished early access game but even with 5 fucking developers... you can see that good ideas and attention to detail trumps millions of dollars and shareholder's sons designers.
    Yeah I get it. You prefer the progression grind disguised as something other than levels. Personally I could care less if it's levels or something else that replaces those pesky level numbers since the whole point of these games is progression.
    KyleranTorvalAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,498
    Iselin said:
    Rungar said:
    Iselin said:
    So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?

    Oh... and Valheim rules.

    :)
    You might have missed one or two things. 

    Yes skill based levelling sucks if it causes you to pound a tree for 3 days. We all pretty much agree to that. Why even have it? 

    I dont know about the subs. They were always pretty fair all things considered. 

    Valheim is an unfinished early access game but even with 5 fucking developers... you can see that good ideas and attention to detail trumps millions of dollars and shareholder's sons designers.
    Yeah I get it. You prefer the progression grind disguised as something other than levels. Personally I could care less if it's levels or something else that replaces those pesky level numbers since the whole point of these games is progression.
    For me at least progression, or the illusion of it is the first pillar for any game I play.

    I can't do activities just for the "fun" of it, or at least not for very long, the lure of the hamster wheel is just too strong.


    IselinAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,396
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    Rungar said:
    Iselin said:
    So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?

    Oh... and Valheim rules.

    :)
    You might have missed one or two things. 

    Yes skill based levelling sucks if it causes you to pound a tree for 3 days. We all pretty much agree to that. Why even have it? 

    I dont know about the subs. They were always pretty fair all things considered. 

    Valheim is an unfinished early access game but even with 5 fucking developers... you can see that good ideas and attention to detail trumps millions of dollars and shareholder's sons designers.
    Yeah I get it. You prefer the progression grind disguised as something other than levels. Personally I could care less if it's levels or something else that replaces those pesky level numbers since the whole point of these games is progression.
    For me at least progression, or the illusion of it is the first pillar for any game I play.

    I can't do activities just for the "fun" of it, or at least not for very long, the lure of the hamster wheel is just too strong.


    There's this whole other gaming genre out there that might just suit you: ARPGs.

    Last I heard it's not a dying genre, quite the opposite. Guess what those are all about... you, grinding progression with levels, with skill unlocks and with gear.

    Hamsters rejoice!
    AlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,092
    Leveling has to be about fun content you experience instead of "let's grind mundane content to level X0 so I can play endgame dungeons and PvP".
    AlBQuirky
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,396
    Shaigh said:
    Leveling has to be about fun content you experience instead of "let's grind mundane content to level X0 so I can play endgame dungeons and PvP".
    Isn't end game just another grind?

    But like you say, it's all about what you find "fun" and that is extremely subjective. Personally I find end game PvE a not so fun grind as well as some types of PvP - the 15 minute match variety.
    SovrathTorvalKyleranAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
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