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Is "Leveling" dead?

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  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,282
    Levels 1-50 type of MMO were you have to progress thrue a set of zones in your level range are boring as fuck.
    Thats one of many reasons I play ESO, ESO don't have that shit.
    GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,819
    For me it is progress to an improvement of my class and character. The level brings newer areas and mobs I can graduate to. I feel like I earned the level and the new spells and abilities that enable me to progress.

    I am very excited about new places I can go to with my new level. The level is like a door that opens up to a new area I could not go to before. That is exciting for me. If the whole game is open to me and there are no barriers I would not be interested in exploring because I can go everywhere. I am more comfortable with barriers and limits. Levels still give me the notion that my character is earning something and I need to see that progress for me to enjoy playing a game. I guess I am old school Everquest true and true.

    Perhaps open games are just too open for me and I am just one of those people who enjoy levelling. I have a very mundane approach to the world because for me the world has to become bigger as I level higher and I need to hold on to a figure or number to help me believe I am climbing up and making progress. I am also like that in real life. 

    I worked in areas most people find boring. I found great comfort in areas that were certain like numbers and abstract stuff boggles me. Even in university I scored the worst in subjects like philosophy and jurisprudence because those were abstract things to me. Give me contract, taxation, banking, land law which is my absolute favourite codified things that make sense to me so I approach gaming the same way. It is perhaps quite sad that I am limited in this way but I am comforted with this type of progression.
    KyleranPo_ggAlBQuirkyUngoodxpsynckitarad
    Chamber of Chains
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,843
    edited April 6
    I don't think it is levelling that has made devs take their eyes of (as you aptly put it) "making the worlds more worldly".

    It is the casino gameplay, the live elements, the streamlining, the attempt to make MMOs appeal to every player. Part of the original concept of a MMORPG was to make a world players wanted to live in, where you paid for the game and a monthly subscription. Today the defining concept of a MMO is making a game players can sight see but want to spend money in. That huge shift is at the root of nearly every change we see.
    GdemamiKyleranWargfootAlBQuirkyxpsync

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  • AugustusGAugustusG Member UncommonPosts: 34
    I tryed my hand at Astelia Royal recently and the asian mmo still have the lvling killing creeps as a classical mmo it was pretty fun until a bug blocked me. Aparently classic lvl your character mmo are still made these days in asia.
    AlBQuirky
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,559
    Rungar said:
    are you sick of "levelling" yet? I am.  
    Nope, progression is pretty much the core of RPG.

    If you mean the actual leveling mechanics (without the quote-unquote), still a nope for me. I've played pretty much every kind of level-based, skill-based, entirely levelless, etc. games out there (both tabletop and cRPG), and I'm fine with all of them until there's a good story, a world to explore, and a sort of progression.
    cheyaneKyleranSovrathAlBQuirkyUngooddragonlee66tzervo
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,498
    edited April 6
    Maurgrim said:
    Levels 1-50 type of MMO were you have to progress thrue a set of zones in your level range are noboring as fuck.
    Thats one of many reasons I play ESO, ESO don't have that shit.
    Funny story, while I've recently been enjoying the flexibility in ESO to team up with friends regardless of their levels I still completely clear zones one at a time before moving to the next.

    It's also great I can clear content anywhere within a zone without worrying about over leveling content.

    The game often gives me quests that send me to another land but as soon as I finish them I return to the zone I'm in the middle of completing.

    This however is partly due to the still extremely limited quest log, after 7 years it still can only hold 25 quests, what's up with that?

    Probably some stupid limitation caused by being available on toasters...err I mean consoles.

    ;)


    ScotAlBQuirkyUngoodtzervo

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  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 175
    While eso was a step in the right direction it just shows me that the levels were never really needed. Im a big proponent of integrated gameplay as opposed to tacked on gameplay. The "levels" are an unnecessary and obsolete gating mechinism. 

    im ok with skills getting better as you use them but i really dont like the your lv x so you have x stats. That should all come from the gameplay itself not some stat you got from killing x monsters.  
    AlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,412
    I think leveling is just sort of there so people keep chasing new carrot like new gear etc...

    So everyone start out with nothing and progress through the way.  They can't deck out a new character from just getting new gear from friends etc. 

    I never really see games with no level, so curious how that work. 
    AlBQuirky
  • WargfootWargfoot Member RarePosts: 455
    AAAMEOW said:
    I think leveling is just sort of there so people keep chasing new carrot like new gear etc...

    So everyone start out with nothing and progress through the way.  They can't deck out a new character from just getting new gear from friends etc. 

    I never really see games with no level, so curious how that work. 


    In a skill based game you raise your skills by using them.

    In UO, for example, you could have a skill range of 0.0 to 100.00 in 55 different skills.  If you wanted to be better with sword you'd pick up a sword and fight with it.  Every once an awhile you'd gain 0.01 skill points until you'd reached grand master at 100.00.

    The same was true with crafting.  You'd gain skill in mining by actually mining ore.

    I prefer this type of game because it is more immersive and people actually ended up participating in the activities they were trying to improve.  That is, I couldn't go out and earn 3 skill points fighting monsters and put those skill points into crafting - you only gained in those areas you practiced.

    Also, because it isn't level based nearly everyone had the same hit points - PvP was much easier to balance and nobody was running around in untouchable godmode.    


    Brainytzervo
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,694
    Scot said:
    I don't think it is levelling that has made devs take their eyes of (as you aptly put it) "making the worlds more worldly".

    It is the casino gameplay, the live elements, the streamlining, the attempt to make MMOs appeal to every player. Part of the original concept of a MMORPG was to make a world players wanted to live in, where you paid for the game and a monthly subscription. Today the defining concept of a MMO is making a game players can sight see but want to spend money in. That huge shift is at the root of nearly every change we see.
    They make MMOs of today "easily beatable." The old ones weren't as easily finished.

    Look at WoW. Many players "beat the latest expansion/update" and leave. Sure, some players stay logged in between times, but too many players no longer do.

    It used to be said, "You don't beat Bethesda games."
    Ungoodxpsync

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
     I am not sure what game everyone is really thinking of when they talk about leveling.

    But, GW2, really had one of the best systems for leveling. You started in the newbie zones, you had simple stuff there to fight, that had limited mechanics, some things that were geared just for starting players, but overall, it felt like a starting region, with your characters home city right there.

    And even then, as you moved about the starting area, which the starting area had a 15 level split, so, the stuff at the city was level 1 - 3 kind of mobs, as you moved around the zone, you could explore, and face harder mobs, the closer you got to other higher level zones, the harder the mobs were. 

    Pretty simple. And those zones were then set up the same way, they were 10 level splits, and the mobs near the lower level zone junction, were lower level, the mobs near their higher level zone junction were higher level.

    Case in point:

    Queensdale: Human Starting City. The mobs nearby the city itself were around level 1 - 5. The mobs in the middle of the zone were around 5 - 10, and the mobs that were near the zone point to Kessex Hills (15 - 25)  & Gendarren Fields (25-35) were around 10 - 15. 

    So you could feel various challenge levels shift as you moved through the zone, and you could also go back to regions near the starting city and feel more powerful, giving you that sense of progress in the zone itself.

    Kessex Hills was 15 - 25, level range. With mobs near Queensdale (Starting Zone) and Caladon Forest (Starting Zone) were in the 15 - 20 range, and the mobs near Gendarren Fields (25 - 35) were in the 20 - 25 range, making them.. just a little harder.

    This way, as you moved through the zones, they would set up for what the next zones would provide, and as you leveled, you could go to harder and harder zones, like a bunch of hobbits leaving home for the first time, you don't step out your front door into the heart of Mount Doom, you make your way there, facing trials, building skills, courage, and developing what you need to overcome what you will face. Unless you are Frodo Baggens, then you just just get carried by your Gardner as everyone heaps all kinds of rare and amazing loot upon you.

    GW2, however, was really cool, in the fact that you could never outlevel a zone. You were always scaled DOWN to the zone you were in. This means, if you started in say Queensdale, level to 15, and then head off to Kessex Hills, you hunt there, make 25th, you can still stop in Caladon Forest (1 - 15) and complete that map, getting exp and rewards, because you will be down scaled to 15, to make the zone your level range. This way, as you move about, as you level, the world opens up for you, you gain MORE zones you can explore, unlike other games where you would only go UP. GW2 set it up so that you could always go back home again.

    Then lets say, you make it to level 40 now, and finally make it to Holbrak, city of the Norns. Well, time to check out Wayfairer Foothills (The Starting Zone for the Norns) most games would have you be this epic TOO HIGH to play here, but not GW2, they down level you and, you can once again, enjoy moving through the zone, doing events with others there, killing mobs, getting rewards, and exploring the world, without being a disruption to the others there, you are not trivializing the events, you are not stealing EXP, you are playing the game WITH the starting Norns, and everyone that came back here to get map completion, and all on mostly even footing.

    And in this vein, starting zones had World Bosses, case in point, Queensdale has Shadow Beast, and Caladon Forest has Jungle Wurm, Warfarer Foothills had Frozen Maw, and when these events start, you will have level like 10's first day player, standing shoulder to shoulder with a level 80 that's been playing since day one, and they are ALL Viably contributing to the event, they are ALL getting a reward, and they are ALL having fun together.

    This was about the closest thing I have ever seen to the perfect system, which is why it galls me so much they just twisted into a shit pile with HoT and went full retard WoW clone.
    xpsync
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,694
    Wargfoot said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I think leveling is just sort of there so people keep chasing new carrot like new gear etc...

    So everyone start out with nothing and progress through the way.  They can't deck out a new character from just getting new gear from friends etc. 

    I never really see games with no level, so curious how that work. 


    In a skill based game you raise your skills by using them.

    In UO, for example, you could have a skill range of 0.0 to 100.00 in 55 different skills.  If you wanted to be better with sword you'd pick up a sword and fight with it.  Every once an awhile you'd gain 0.01 skill points until you'd reached grand master at 100.00.

    The same was true with crafting.  You'd gain skill in mining by actually mining ore.

    I prefer this type of game because it is more immersive and people actually ended up participating in the activities they were trying to improve.  That is, I couldn't go out and earn 3 skill points fighting monsters and put those skill points into crafting - you only gained in those areas you practiced.

    Also, because it isn't level based nearly everyone had the same hit points - PvP was much easier to balance and nobody was running around in untouchable godmode.    


    So you're more against "character levels" than "just levels?"

    Level is an all encompassing term that equates to progress. If you're progressing your skills, gear, and abilities, you're still leveling or progressing.

    I agree and prefer skill/ability/gear leveling over actual character levels. But those are "levels", still. Groups will seek out "qualified candidates" by whatever metric they are seeking to fulfill. "We seek a sword wielder at X skill." "We are looking for a caster with Fireball."

    Sorry, that should read "LFSW X Skill." or LFC w FB." LOL

    Something that always bugged me about character levels was the hit point/health meter. In tabletop D&D, is was a simplified way to show the overall ability of a player to "withstand damage", or damage mitigation. This was a simplified way to incorporate life and skill knowledge. This is a great example of where tabletop systems failed to translate well into video games. Even more so as combat became more and more twitch mode instead of more RNG based.

    I hope that made sense :)
    WargfootUngoodtzervo

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    AlBQuirky said:
    Wargfoot said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I think leveling is just sort of there so people keep chasing new carrot like new gear etc...

    So everyone start out with nothing and progress through the way.  They can't deck out a new character from just getting new gear from friends etc. 

    I never really see games with no level, so curious how that work. 


    In a skill based game you raise your skills by using them.

    In UO, for example, you could have a skill range of 0.0 to 100.00 in 55 different skills.  If you wanted to be better with sword you'd pick up a sword and fight with it.  Every once an awhile you'd gain 0.01 skill points until you'd reached grand master at 100.00.

    The same was true with crafting.  You'd gain skill in mining by actually mining ore.

    I prefer this type of game because it is more immersive and people actually ended up participating in the activities they were trying to improve.  That is, I couldn't go out and earn 3 skill points fighting monsters and put those skill points into crafting - you only gained in those areas you practiced.

    Also, because it isn't level based nearly everyone had the same hit points - PvP was much easier to balance and nobody was running around in untouchable godmode.    


    So you're more against "character levels" than "just levels?"

    Level is an all encompassing term that equates to progress. If you're progressing your skills, gear, and abilities, you're still leveling or progressing.

    I agree and prefer skill/ability/gear leveling over actual character levels. But those are "levels", still. Groups will seek out "qualified candidates" by whatever metric they are seeking to fulfill. "We seek a sword wielder at X skill." "We are looking for a caster with Fireball."

    Sorry, that should read "LFSW X Skill." or LFC w FB." LOL

    Something that always bugged me about character levels was the hit point/health meter. In tabletop D&D, is was a simplified way to show the overall ability of a player to "withstand damage", or damage mitigation. This was a simplified way to incorporate life and skill knowledge. This is a great example of where tabletop systems failed to translate well into video games. Even more so as combat became more and more twitch mode instead of more RNG based.

    I hope that made sense :)
    Dragonrealms, had it set up, that you could only level once you met the skill criteria to level. As such leveling was not so much a "Power Up" but a mark of how much skill you have gained in your chosen profession. 

    Levels did unlock some abilities, like additional spells, maybe a new skill, a title, things like that, to there was a slight advantage to leveling or taking that level (Which was totally optional, you never had to level if you didn't want to), but everything was based on your skill, so, your real advantage was in the skills your character had.

    To grasp this.

    Lets say you play a Ranger.
    You would need something like say:
    4 Primary Weapon Ranks.
    3 Secondary Weapon Ranks
    4 Armor Rank.
    20 Overall Survival Skill
    4 Skinning Ranks
    4 Overall Mechanical Lore

    What this means is that, a level 10 ranger has at LEAST.
    40 Ranks in their main Weapon.
    30 Ranks in their Secondary Weapon.
    40 Ranks in their Main Armor
    200 Overall Ranks in Survival Skills.
    40 Ranks in Skinning (Which counts towards that 200 total above)
    40 Ranks in Overall Mechanical Lore Skills.

    So this is a base Minimum that Ranger has.

    The reality is, this does not tell you that much, nor that if you were say a level 10 paladin, that you would be a close fight to them, as they could have something like 500 ranks in their Primary Weapon, and they just don't level up because they want to give the illusion they are weak, and you have no way to know this, so they might cut you in half on the first hit if you start a fight with them.

    It was a real crazy game.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • WargfootWargfoot Member RarePosts: 455
    AlBQuirky said:So you're more against "character levels" than "just levels?"

    Level is an all encompassing term that equates to progress. If you're progressing your skills, gear, and abilities, you're still leveling or progressing.

    I agree and prefer skill/ability/gear leveling over actual character levels. But those are "levels", still. Groups will seek out "qualified candidates" by whatever metric they are seeking to fulfill. "We seek a sword wielder at X skill." "We are looking for a caster with Fireball."

    Sorry, that should read "LFSW X Skill." or LFC w FB." LOL

    Something that always bugged me about character levels was the hit point/health meter. In tabletop D&D, is was a simplified way to show the overall ability of a player to "withstand damage", or damage mitigation. This was a simplified way to incorporate life and skill knowledge. This is a great example of where tabletop systems failed to translate well into video games. Even more so as combat became more and more twitch mode instead of more RNG based.

    I hope that made sense :)
    That made sense, and in fact, I'd briefly considered asking for clarification before you made this post.

    I'd consider progression essential to MMROPGs.
    I like progression.

    I prefer the progression be in the form of skill gains as opposed to leveling.

    While all progression in a video game is an abstraction or model I'd say that 'leveling' (in the typical level 1-50) is an abstraction of skill gain and because of this introduces immersion breaking elements. (1)

    I do like leveling in some areas - like reputation with a town or perhaps within a guild.  I'd like to see more creative ways to express progression in games.











    NOTES
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1: BTW, immersion isn't some kind of holy grail.  Sometimes people enjoy NOT being too immersed.

    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,693
    The problem with leveling is the player.

    I played first 4 months of SL solo and mostly took my time, took a couple weeks to hit 60, then on some alts took a couple months to get to 60.

    But f me if i still didn't feel some kind of weird ass pressure to just level asap.

    I mean if you truly solo wow with a life it'll take you months upon months to get through the content, read the quests, smell the roses...

    but the mentality of late is to just BLAST THE FUCK TROUGH CONTENT!!! lmao Hurry the F up and wait, and then complain there is nothing to do, overall it's a crock of BS.

    There is nothing to do now cause you didn't control yourself and take your time, and hell yeah i suffer from that as well, i've no deadline, yet, it's just weird. I wasn't aiming for end game so, whats the rush, just enjoy.

    Now later on where i changed servers to get into end game yeah i blasted through leveling with a end reason, a purpose to do that.

    If you want to enjoy leveling there is nothing stopping you from doing that other than yourself and depending on the game as i think Tera, that's just silly af, like the dev's were pissed at being hounded to make leveling faster or something, just no care put into that at all.
    UngoodAlBQuirky
    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

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    Currently Playing; WOW, SWG:L

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,173
    Scot said:
    I don't think it is levelling that has made devs take their eyes of (as you aptly put it) "making the worlds more worldly".

    It is the casino gameplay, the live elements, the streamlining, the attempt to make MMOs appeal to every player. Part of the original concept of a MMORPG was to make a world players wanted to live in, where you paid for the game and a monthly subscription. Today the defining concept of a MMO is making a game players can sight see but want to spend money in. That huge shift is at the root of nearly every change we see.

    Yeah I saw that when WoW came around....The MMO scene shifted from a living breathing world to being entertained, kinda like going to the movies......Now we had to have voice acting and cutscenes in our games....People no longer wanted challenge, but just something to spend an hour on and move on.
    ScotAlBQuirkytzervo
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,527
    Linear level progression is counterintuitive to an ongoing online game. The games never truly expand because you aren't adding to your relevant content - just replacing irrelevant content with relevant content.
    AlBQuirky
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,039

    Level have nothing to do with wordly world. Dev are just lazy greedy little f**k. 
    Agreed. Especially if you ignore the fact that they busted their asses studying for that. And that the gaming industry is particularly notorious for crunches. And the fact that they need to constantly keep educating themselves to the fast evolving new technologies. And the fact that many players actually want levelling.

    Wait... maybe devs are actually less lazy and more productive than the average gamer/poster after all :)
    AlBQuirkySovrath
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,843
    Scot said:
    I don't think it is levelling that has made devs take their eyes of (as you aptly put it) "making the worlds more worldly".

    It is the casino gameplay, the live elements, the streamlining, the attempt to make MMOs appeal to every player. Part of the original concept of a MMORPG was to make a world players wanted to live in, where you paid for the game and a monthly subscription. Today the defining concept of a MMO is making a game players can sight see but want to spend money in. That huge shift is at the root of nearly every change we see.

    Yeah I saw that when WoW came around....The MMO scene shifted from a living breathing world to being entertained, kinda like going to the movies......Now we had to have voice acting and cutscenes in our games....People no longer wanted challenge, but just something to spend an hour on and move on.
    Notice that this was not just a casual friendly response, but pushed MMORPG's more in line with other forms of entertainment like a TV show, it was more to do with making games every player wanted to play even if all you had played before was an early mobile game like Snake.
    AlBQuirky

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  • DemogorgonDemogorgon Member UncommonPosts: 355
    tzervo said:

    Level have nothing to do with wordly world. Dev are just lazy greedy little f**k. 
    Agreed. Especially if you ignore the fact that they busted their asses studying for that. And that the gaming industry is particularly notorious for crunches. And the fact that they need to constantly keep educating themselves to the fast evolving new technologies. And the fact that many players actually want levelling.

    Wait... maybe devs are actually less lazy and more productive than the average gamer/poster after all :)
    To be fair, you are right. It isn't really the devs fault. I'm sure most of them aren't lazy, but they do make lazy ass games still. Not for them to decide, I know, publisher and all that.
    The point is, there is a huge greed and minimum viable product problem in the gaming industry. No worldy world is a symptom of that and nothing else.
    AlBQuirky
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,039
    edited April 6
    The point is, there is a huge greed and minimum viable product problem in the gaming industry. No worldy world is a symptom of that and nothing else.
    Dunno, there are two sides to this: gamers paying for those MVPs. If they complain afterwards, they should just stop paying these games and show restraint. If not, then they were not really cheap MVP attempts but actually had some value. Gamers tend to underestimate the complexity of game development (or any software development really).

    In my opinion no worldly world is just the market speaking: people prefer WoW to other games that according to me and you feel more like a world (I agree with you on that front).

    It is true that I cannot think of a single MMO that gave me the feeling of a world and that was level-based. I assume skill-based progression gives that feeling of "living in the world and getting better at exactly what you do", but I think other elements are way more important in building up an MMO that feels like a world. Economy, conflict (not necessarily combat PVP, see ATitD or Prosperous Universe) or well-fleshed out in-game careers (combat and non-combat) for example.

    Scratch that, actually having skill based progression is what I think gives those career paths in the games I had in mind so I am contradicting myself here.
    AlBQuirky
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 741
    edited April 6
    Maurgrim said:
    Levels 1-50 type of MMO were you have to progress thrue a set of zones in your level range are boring as fuck.
    Thats one of many reasons I play ESO, ESO don't have that shit.
    Ironically, people complained Crowfalls was too quick.. because it's meant to teach you and get you into the action... not be core PVE content. 

    A lot of players have been trained by the industry that level cap should take 50hours+ (for normal experience).
    AlBQuirkyKylerantzervo
  • WargfootWargfoot Member RarePosts: 455
    edited April 6
    If I were a billionaire....

    I'd launch a game with a skill based system but with certain time 'levels' built into it such that certain things (guild standing, reputation, etc) were real-time based.  That is, it would be impossible to have X standing in a certain town until your character had spent a certain amount of time there.

    GrandMaster level in a skill (100.0 in UO) wouldn't be possible until the character was at least 1 calendar year old.

    I see those kinds of restrictions as being a good way to discourage throw away griefer characters.

    Of course, you'd have to have the kind of world that would support activity for that long.
    AlBQuirkyScot
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,039
    edited April 6
    WHen I look at the success of games like Fortnite I often wonder if players don't like to level anymore...To me that is the fun of the game...improving my character and gaining new skills and spells is the fun of hte game, not having a max level character with everything all ready handed to him from the start.
    You also have DotA/LoL which are short match games and still have levelling and with LoL being comparably (more I think) popular to Fortnite. "To level or not to level" is not clear cut in short-match games either.
    AlBQuirky
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,039
    edited April 6
    AlBQuirky said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Leveling is for people who spend a lot of time trying to get bubble gum out of their hair.

    HAH! I shaved my hair the last time that happened!  LOL
    Both sound painful xD
    AlBQuirky
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