Was The Game Ever Real ? - 8 Million Dollars Missing - The Chronicles of Elyria

Slapshot1188

Video from KiraTV




Hey, I make an appearance at 8:29

francis_baud

That was a solid video, as it seems based on facts rather than unsubstantiated accusations. I've called out SS at the beginning of their project for different reasons, but to me CoE doesn't seem like a "scam": based on what they've shown over the years, I'd say more like a mismanaged project, unfortunately for all its backers and developers (and even the CEO).

Slapshot1188

francis_baud said:

That was a solid video, as it seems based on facts rather than unsubstantiated accusations. I've called out SS at the beginning of their project for different reasons, but to me CoE doesn't seem like a "scam": based on what they've shown over the years, I'd say more like a mismanaged project, unfortunately for all its backers and developers (and even the CEO).

I believed that in the beginning but what they pulled at then end with raising all that money and then shutting down, to announce they didn't shut down, to now announcing they are working on some RTS game...  And as he said... all that money and time and nobody played it?

IMHO something changed mid project when he realized couldn't deliver.

francis_baud

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

That was a solid video, as it seems based on facts rather than unsubstantiated accusations. I've called out SS at the beginning of their project for different reasons, but to me CoE doesn't seem like a "scam": based on what they've shown over the years, I'd say more like a mismanaged project, unfortunately for all its backers and developers (and even the CEO).

I believed that in the beginning but what they pulled at then end with raising all that money and then shutting down, to announce they didn't shut down, to now announcing they are working on some RTS game...  And as he said... all that money and time and nobody played it?

IMHO something changed mid project when he realized couldn't deliver.

How I interpreted it is that they thought they would make a lot of money with the event, but they didn't get much, so they couldn't pay their developers and it precipitated the announcement of the closure of the studio, but Jeromy himself had apparently the intention to continue working on CoE as he mentions in the announcement:

""is this the end of Elyria then?". The answer is, I hope not. Continuing on with the Hero's Journey, the stage right after the Ordeal or "The Abyss" is Metamorphosis or Atonement. It's the period of the story where, having to transform themselves in order to make it out of the abyss, the hero becomes something better than they were before. Leaving the darkness behind, they emerge into the light, atone for their failures, and then move forward into the real growth-point of the story."

As for the RTS game, I've really no idea why he would actually start working on this new game rather than trying to push updates to one of the 3 partially developed "worlds" (the one shown in the KS, the Minecraft-like one or the Prelyria).

But anyway I'm not saying it doesn't seem sketchy, I'm just pointing out that without solid evidences one should be wary to accuse someone of fraud (one consequence is that it has a big impact not only on the CEO but on all the people who will write "Chronicles of Elyria" as previous experience on their resume).

Tokken

Was The Game Ever Real ?

No, but the cash spent was.......

Slapshot1188

francis_baud said:

How I interpreted it is that they thought they would make a lot of money with the event, but they didn't get much, so they couldn't pay their developers and it precipitated the announcement of the closure of the studio, but Jeromy himself had apparently the intention to continue working on CoE as he mentions in the announcement:

How much do you consider a lot of money?  

Also, note that the lawsuit against him actual alleges fraud.  That doesn't make it true (it's an allegation) but it sure will be interesting when that gets expounded on.

Theocritus

Tokken said:

Was The Game Ever Real ?

No, but the cash spent was.......

Maybe it was Bitcoin?

francis_baud

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

How I interpreted it is that they thought they would make a lot of money with the event, but they didn't get much, so they couldn't pay their developers and it precipitated the announcement of the closure of the studio, but Jeromy himself had apparently the intention to continue working on CoE as he mentions in the announcement:

How much do you consider a lot of money?  

Also, note that the lawsuit against him actual alleges fraud.  That doesn't make it true (it's an allegation) but it sure will be interesting when that gets expounded on.

They have collected $4,3M in ~2 years (Jan 2018 - Feb 2020), so about $2M per year. An event lasts for about a month I think? If it's the case, I'd say possibly around $300-500K would be a lot of money. For a studio, it could represent a year of salary for 3-6 developers. Nothing to ensure the long-term sustainability of the  studio by itself but it could have delayed the closure of the studio by many months (until the next event?).

We'll see what emerges from this lawsuit, I guess that the group that initiated it believe they've got enough evidences to tilt the balance in their favor.

Slapshot1188

francis_baud said:

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

How I interpreted it is that they thought they would make a lot of money with the event, but they didn't get much, so they couldn't pay their developers and it precipitated the announcement of the closure of the studio, but Jeromy himself had apparently the intention to continue working on CoE as he mentions in the announcement:

How much do you consider a lot of money?  

Also, note that the lawsuit against him actual alleges fraud.  That doesn't make it true (it's an allegation) but it sure will be interesting when that gets expounded on.

They have collected $4,3M in ~2 years (Jan 2018 - Feb 2020), so about $2M per year. An event lasts for about a month I think? If it's the case, I'd say possibly around $300-500K would be a lot of money. For a studio, it could represent a year of salary for 3-6 developers. Nothing to ensure the long-term sustainability of the  studio by itself but it could have delayed the closure of the studio by many months (until the next event?).

We'll see what emerges from this lawsuit, I guess that the group that initiated it believe they've got enough evidences to tilt the balance in their favor.

This was posted January 8th 2020:

Studio additions!

In December, Ash Kain joined us as Producer. In his most previous roles he has worked on Camelot: Unchained and also Star Citizen. You can find him in Discord under the handle “Kain”.

In January, two new members joined the team. First we welcome CortanaV to the team as our new UX/UI designer! She previously worked on Destiny through to Destiny 2, and Shadowkeep, to name a few. You can find her on our official Discord server in blue as “CortanaV”.

Next we added a senior UI artist to our team of merry developers. His previous accolades include Halo Infinite and start to finish efforts on Halo 4 and 5. He’s logged into our Discord server as “Mokume_Hada”.

Kyleran

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

How I interpreted it is that they thought they would make a lot of money with the event, but they didn't get much, so they couldn't pay their developers and it precipitated the announcement of the closure of the studio, but Jeromy himself had apparently the intention to continue working on CoE as he mentions in the announcement:

How much do you consider a lot of money?  

Also, note that the lawsuit against him actual alleges fraud.  That doesn't make it true (it's an allegation) but it sure will be interesting when that gets expounded on.

They have collected $4,3M in ~2 years (Jan 2018 - Feb 2020), so about $2M per year. An event lasts for about a month I think? If it's the case, I'd say possibly around $300-500K would be a lot of money. For a studio, it could represent a year of salary for 3-6 developers. Nothing to ensure the long-term sustainability of the  studio by itself but it could have delayed the closure of the studio by many months (until the next event?).

We'll see what emerges from this lawsuit, I guess that the group that initiated it believe they've got enough evidences to tilt the balance in their favor.

This was posted January 8th 2020:

Studio additions!

In December, Ash Kain joined us as Producer. In his most previous roles he has worked on Camelot: Unchained and also Star Citizen. You can find him in Discord under the handle “Kain”.

In January, two new members joined the team. First we welcome CortanaV to the team as our new UX/UI designer! She previously worked on Destiny through to Destiny 2, and Shadowkeep, to name a few. You can find her on our official Discord server in blue as “CortanaV”.

Next we added a senior UI artist to our team of merry developers. His previous accolades include Halo Infinite and start to finish efforts on Halo 4 and 5. He’s logged into our Discord server as “Mokume_Hada”.

I always felt a bit bad for those late joiners, they probably had no clue how close to the edge of bankruptcy Soulbound was, I hope they landed on their feet somewhere.

Slapshot1188

francis_baud said:

But anyway I'm not saying it doesn't seem sketchy, I'm just pointing out that without solid evidences one should be wary to accuse someone of fraud (one consequence is that it has a big impact not only on the CEO but on all the people who will write "Chronicles of Elyria" as previous experience on their resume).

Might want to check this out sometime:

Scot

The game was certainly real, but in five years they have not been able to bring out anything resembling a game they could even put into Early Access. More than that, what they have shown of the game seems in an early stage of development. If the money had kept coming in could they have pulled it off? I doubt it because mismanagement was a huge part of why they were taking so long and that would have just continued.

So on a scale of one to ten, 1 being Vapourware and ten being a real Early Access I give CoE a 3.

Slapshot1188

Interesting.  If you go to 14:00 and watch to the end he drops a fairly huge bomb.  I had not heard this before.  If true it is going to be game over.

francis_baud

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

But anyway I'm not saying it doesn't seem sketchy, I'm just pointing out that without solid evidences one should be wary to accuse someone of fraud (one consequence is that it has a big impact not only on the CEO but on all the people who will write "Chronicles of Elyria" as previous experience on their resume).

Might want to check this out sometime:

I took some notes in case anyone is interested to read, in parenthesis is me paraphrasing Kira's words :

(90% of the announcement is non-sense, insulting intelligence of the readers, basically lies after lies) [1:25]. CoE is based on Unreal engine while KoE is based on Unity engine (can't interact with each others unless rewrite?) [2:10]. Unity asset packs for KoE (why not using art from CoE?) [3:00]. All the devs are used to Unreal, so why swap to Unity? Because it's faster on Unity? [3:45]. KoE part of the KS rewards (not a gift) [6:15]. Server codes reused from CoE to KoE [7:15]. Feedback from KoE (Unity) represents automatic improvements in CoE (Unreal) (non sense?) [8:00]. Mechanics developed previously will be added to KoE (Unity), and then reused in CoE (Unreal) (non sense?) [8:40]. Delivering the game in 4 parts: settlements, domains, online, legacies (bullshit? pure fabrication?) [9:45]. Details on KoE: Settlements (so ridiculous, take year to develop a basic game) [10:15]. Details on the 8 future milestones (skeptic that they've been working on this for four years) [11:45]. Future videos will be focused on the game [14:10]. Active community members (disabled all forms of communications, broken promise of enabling comments) [14:30]. Exposed the strategy game to a broader audience that doesn't think about "MMOs" when they hear colony sim (of course because it's not a MMO, it's a single-player game) [16:00]. Soulbound Studios still committed to develop CoE (just started a new game with a new engine, cheapest thing in the shortest amount of time because they're being sued) [16:35]. (insulting the intelligence of everyone, pure non sense) [18:15]

Basically what I think is that it may indeed be the result of dishonest schemes, but it may also be explained by clumsiness, inexperience, mismanagement and/or lack of funds. So claiming it's a scam based on the information contained in this video alone may be premature IMO. There are however other videos made by Kira so maybe some more convincing evidences exist.

YashaX

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

But anyway I'm not saying it doesn't seem sketchy, I'm just pointing out that without solid evidences one should be wary to accuse someone of fraud (one consequence is that it has a big impact not only on the CEO but on all the people who will write "Chronicles of Elyria" as previous experience on their resume).

Might want to check this out sometime:

Amazingly there are people in the comments section of that youtube video defending the switch to Unity as something positive. Its almost as ridiculous as people posting here that the project merely "seems sketchy".

Slapshot1188

francis_baud said:

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

But anyway I'm not saying it doesn't seem sketchy, I'm just pointing out that without solid evidences one should be wary to accuse someone of fraud (one consequence is that it has a big impact not only on the CEO but on all the people who will write "Chronicles of Elyria" as previous experience on their resume).

Might want to check this out sometime:

I took some notes in case anyone is interested to read, in parenthesis is me paraphrasing Kira's words :

(90% of the announcement is non-sense, insulting intelligence of the readers, basically lies after lies) [1:25]. CoE is based on Unreal engine while KoE is based on Unity engine (can't interact with each others unless rewrite?) [2:10]. Unity asset packs for KoE (why not using art from CoE?) [3:00]. All the devs are used to Unreal, so why swap to Unity? Because it's faster on Unity? [3:45]. KoE part of the KS rewards (not a gift) [6:15]. Server codes reused from CoE to KoE [7:15]. Feedback from KoE (Unity) represents automatic improvements in CoE (Unreal) (non sense?) [8:00]. Mechanics developed previously will be added to KoE (Unity), and then reused in CoE (Unreal) (non sense?) [8:40]. Delivering the game in 4 parts: settlements, domains, online, legacies (bullshit? pure fabrication?) [9:45]. Details on KoE: Settlements (so ridiculous, take year to develop a basic game) [10:15]. Details on the 8 future milestones (skeptic that they've been working on this for four years) [11:45]. Future videos will be focused on the game [14:10]. Active community members (disabled all forms of communications, broken promise of enabling comments) [14:30]. Exposed the strategy game to a broader audience that doesn't think about "MMOs" when they hear colony sim (of course because it's not a MMO, it's a single-player game) [16:00]. Soulbound Studios still committed to develop CoE (just started a new game with a new engine, cheapest thing in the shortest amount of time because they're being sued) [16:35]. (insulting the intelligence of everyone, pure non sense) [18:15]

Basically what I think is that it may indeed be the result of dishonest schemes, but it may as well be explained by clumsiness, inexperience, mismanagement and/or lack of funds. So claiming it's a scam based on the information contained in this video alone may be premature IMO. There are however other videos made by Kira so maybe some more convincing evidences exist.

Only Caspien knows for sure at this point.  IMHO, and you can look back over the years... I consistently said he was simply inept and utterly incompetent.  What he did with the sale and shutdown though... put me over the line to where I think it morphed into a scam.  And if, as Kira says in one of his videos, Xsolla sked other devs to look at the code because THEY think there is nothing to show... well.. that's the nail in the coffin.   You have to admit that it is EXTRAORDINARILLY strange for him to change ENGINES for this new spinoff RTS.  He didn't even use the art assets he supposedly had.  He went and bought them on the unity store (with either backer funds or Coronavirus loans in all likelihood) to toss something new together in a few weeks.

• He had a chance to come clean and release the findings of his supposed forensic accountant.  He did not.
• He could have simply let the backers into his pre-elyria crap that he was touting before they shut down/reopened.  He did not
• He could have done what he said he was going to do and make this Kingdoms of Elyria in the same engine as CoE so that assets could actually be used between them.  He did not.
• He could have told the community they were in trouble.  Not only did he not do that but he started a new sale and took money from unsuspecting dupes until a day or so before he shut down.

As Kira says.. all these years...triple what he asked for as a budget... and nobody outside of his company has apparently ever played ANY of this game.   I think that has to raise questions far beyond gross-incompetence.

bcbully

the drama was!

Iselin

YashaX said:

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

But anyway I'm not saying it doesn't seem sketchy, I'm just pointing out that without solid evidences one should be wary to accuse someone of fraud (one consequence is that it has a big impact not only on the CEO but on all the people who will write "Chronicles of Elyria" as previous experience on their resume).

Might want to check this out sometime:

Amazingly there are people in the comments section of that youtube video defending the switch to Unity as something positive. Its almost as ridiculous as people posting here that the project merely "seems sketchy".

I've come to the conclusion that gamers are particularly easy marks to scam. They want to believe so badly they will aid and abet the scammers and tie their brains up in knots trying to keep the dream alive.

Scammers have also noticed this about gamers.

francis_baud

Iselin said:

YashaX said:

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

But anyway I'm not saying it doesn't seem sketchy, I'm just pointing out that without solid evidences one should be wary to accuse someone of fraud (one consequence is that it has a big impact not only on the CEO but on all the people who will write "Chronicles of Elyria" as previous experience on their resume).

Might want to check this out sometime:

Amazingly there are people in the comments section of that youtube video defending the switch to Unity as something positive. Its almost as ridiculous as people posting here that the project merely "seems sketchy".

I've come to the conclusion that gamers are particularly easy marks to scam. They want to believe so badly they will aid and abet the scammers and tie their brains up in knots trying to keep the dream alive.

Scammers have also noticed this about gamers.

I had/have no interest in playing CoE, only followed lightly the development and warned the fans that some things seemed wrong (1, 2, 3, 4) about the project during the Kickstarter campaign. What I notice however is a lot of accusations of fraudulent behaviors that have not been proved yet (afaik), which resemble defamation to me. There's a class action and a complaint filled to the court so we will likely hear news about all of it soon.

Wizardry

Well i have to point to the original selling point that had me interested but also skeptical.

I asked how it would be funded and he stated through  $5 DEATH penalty.I thought cool idea but sounds skechy as shit.
So then i slept on it and the mention that dying might actually be beneficial.So then i quicxkly realized this kind of system would  be a total p2w by dying on purpose.I also realized this type of system could never be trusted because the dev could make sure you die often.

So it became apparent to me this guy did not have any good ideas to finance the project.It wasn't long after,like a week or two it became very evident this dude was a bit sketchy.So i mmediately lost interest in the game.

Was it ever realy a game or just a con job?Tough to say,i would definitely lean on the poor management and seemingly a ruished idea to cfeate cash flow seeing other studios doing the same thing.

We have seen two studios literally ruin gaming,Blizzard because Wow a very ho hum mmo+rpg design made millions and Chris Roberts als oshowing the world that you can make millions with literally nothing to show and then continue to make millions operating a cash shop on an uinfinished game.

Iselin

francis_baud said:

Iselin said:

YashaX said:

Slapshot1188 said:

francis_baud said:

But anyway I'm not saying it doesn't seem sketchy, I'm just pointing out that without solid evidences one should be wary to accuse someone of fraud (one consequence is that it has a big impact not only on the CEO but on all the people who will write "Chronicles of Elyria" as previous experience on their resume).

Might want to check this out sometime:

Amazingly there are people in the comments section of that youtube video defending the switch to Unity as something positive. Its almost as ridiculous as people posting here that the project merely "seems sketchy".

I've come to the conclusion that gamers are particularly easy marks to scam. They want to believe so badly they will aid and abet the scammers and tie their brains up in knots trying to keep the dream alive.

Scammers have also noticed this about gamers.

I had/have no interest in playing CoE, only followed lightly the development and warned the fans that some things seemed wrong (1, 2, 3, 4) about the project during the Kickstarter campaign. What I notice however is a lot of accusations of fraudulent behaviors that have not been proved yet (afaik), which resemble defamation to me. There's a class action and a complaint filled to the court so we will likely hear news about all of it soon.

You can hold whatever standards you want in the francis_baud high court (or low court if its in your basement) but first you should acquaint yourself with the legal defenses against defamation including things such as context, forum and concepts such as "qualified privilege", "fair comment" and "responsible communication on matters of public importance." Look them up.

The standards in a fan forum discussing games that promised much and delivered nothing and is now doing that all over again are quite different though when it's just fans opining on whether something that walks and talks like a scam is one or not.

So you know where you can put your amateur internet lawyer crap.

Slapshot1188

Caspien can put this to rest by:

1. Releasing the actual results of the supposed forensic accounting analysis he had done

2. Allow his backers into his Pre-Elyria so they can see what he spent around $8M and all these years on


At this point, I really do not understand why he would not do so unless they would be damaging to him.   

Sandmanjw

Why do the other dev's that were "working" on this game never get asked what they did?

I take it that there was more than Caspien that got paid something over the years right?

Can not even keep top secret stuff from governments quiet but game dev's can?

BruceYee

Sandmanjw said:

Why do the other dev's that were "working" on this game never get asked what they did?

I take it that there was more than Caspien that got paid something over the years right?

Can not even keep top secret stuff from governments quiet but game dev's can?

Signed NDA

BruceYee

What I'd do if I was him is just make the game with Unity and deliver at least the basic features and obviously not all the impossible things he was promising. I know people gave him money for those features but at this point the situation just sucks for everyone and if he releases a basic MMO then adds to it over time it will be better than nothing. Reach some type of compromise of some kind with the really high pledge people like an instanced housing zone or something just for them + other perks. If he is using Unity then stuff like that is possible. Even if he lied and no code was written and stuff being mentioned here is true nothing can be done about that. Those old employees are gone and the best he can do is try to actually REALLY make a game this time with the new hires.

Slapshot1188

BruceYee said:

What I'd do if I was him is just make the game with Unity and deliver at least the basic features and obviously not all the impossible things he was promising. I know people gave him money for those features but at this point the situation just sucks for everyone and if he releases a basic MMO then adds to it over time it will be better than nothing. Reach some type of compromise of some kind with the really high pledge people like an instanced housing zone or something just for them + other perks. If he is using Unity then stuff like that is possible. Even if he lied and no code was written and stuff being mentioned here is true nothing can be done about that. Those old employees are gone and the best he can do is try to actually REALLY make a game this time with the new hires.

So after almost 5 years and $8,000,000  he should just start over from scratch?
What new hires?  How many?  What do they do?  How will he pay them?  Do you think people are going to give this guy money after the catastrophe that the last 5 years were?

No... he should release what he has.  He claimed he had substantial development.  Look through all his blog posts.  Why can't the backers even walk around in the actual client he supposedly spent the last 5 years working on?

Why not simply come clean and show what is there?  Why not show the results of the forensic accountant's investigation that he claims to have had done?