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About PvP

GorweGorwe Member Posts: 513
edited March 29 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Right, so I was recently mucking about WAR / RoR and that made me question my stance towards PvE and PvP. PvP generates a stronger "reflex", so I chose to focus on that. This is the meat of the matter:

PvP is..."hot". It's very intense, very gripping when it happens and I literally feel more alive because of it. But! It's the equal to wanting to have an intercourse with a hot stranger - it's a very intense and focused activity ; nothing much going on. Also! My perfectionism(...gee thanks Hardcore and GW 1) complexes get in the way and I want to fight, I don't want any escorts, supplies etc. Note: This is about CONSENSUAL PvP ; Griefing can fuck right off.

PvE, otoh, is generally quite a relaxing activity, but it's also quite dull and rote. I like being in control, I like doing whatever, I like the general premise of PvE(even group one which I don't like half as much), but it simply does not have the "spark" of consensual PvP. And neither does it compare well to Singleplayer RPGs. Because if a game is good in SP elements(SWTOR, TSW, OtherLands etc)...why is it not a Singleplayer game?

What do you think?
Gdemamibcbully
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Comments

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,591
    edited March 29
    I think that's mostly you as well as how any particular game is made.

    I remember, so, so many years ago, I was playing a shooter that had some sort of bot you could download and it would come for you.

    It might have been the first Quake, but I really don't remember.

    it was essentially some of the best fighting I had ever experienced because the bot was so good. It wasn't a human opponent but was probably better and in some ways more fun. There was something a bit haunting knowing this "thing" was coming for me, no emotions, just programmed to kill "me." Like the terminator!

    Point being, if pve is made so that it's relaxing, it will be relaxing.

    Remember, pve in mmorpg's is made so that you will win. They are little speed bumps, little increments on your way to leveling.

    Especially Warhammer's pve, it was atrocious.

    Now, I'm not talking about raids or even the open group events in warhammer, just the quest stuff.

    I personally don't sign into pvp the same way you do as I don't think of it as wanting to have hot sex with a stranger.


  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 513
    Sovrath said:
    I think that's mostly you as well as how any particular game is made.

    I remember, so, so many years ago, I was playing a shooter that had some sort of bot you could download and it would come for you.

    It might have been the first Quake, but I really don't remember.

    it was essentially some of the best fighting I had ever experienced because the bot was so good. It wasn't a human opponent but was probably better and in some ways more fun. There was something a bit haunting knowing this "thing" was coming for me, no emotions, just programmed to kill "me." Like the terminator!

    Point being, if pve is made so that it's relaxing, it will be relaxing.

    Remember, pve in mmorpg's is made so that you will win. They are little speed bumps, little increments on your way to leveling.

    Especially Warhammer's pve, it was atrocious.

    Now, I'm not talking about raids or even the open group events in warhammer, just the quest stuff.

    I personally don't sign into pvp the same way you do as I don't think of it as wanting to have hot sex with a stranger.



    Ah, I didn't know how to describe that phenomenon that happens to my body, so I used the closest approximation. Which is...ok.

    But the point is: horrible systems. Warhammer Online's Renown. Talk about gnarly, fugly, mutated chaos spawn! It's a system that's fully closed off(=its own purpose), brings NOTHING to the game while adding HUGE DESIGN PROBLEMS(because it IS a huge design derp)! A system that is perpendicular to all other systems...really? That forces you into unnatural playstyles? SECOND XP BAR? wtf.

    I just realized that I don't have that much against PvP(just not my go to activity), but against the horrible purple bar from WAR / RoR.

    Have you ever encountered such a bullshit mechanic(that probably killed WAR by itself)?
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,591
    Gorwe said:
    Sovrath said:
    I think that's mostly you as well as how any particular game is made.

    I remember, so, so many years ago, I was playing a shooter that had some sort of bot you could download and it would come for you.

    It might have been the first Quake, but I really don't remember.

    it was essentially some of the best fighting I had ever experienced because the bot was so good. It wasn't a human opponent but was probably better and in some ways more fun. There was something a bit haunting knowing this "thing" was coming for me, no emotions, just programmed to kill "me." Like the terminator!

    Point being, if pve is made so that it's relaxing, it will be relaxing.

    Remember, pve in mmorpg's is made so that you will win. They are little speed bumps, little increments on your way to leveling.

    Especially Warhammer's pve, it was atrocious.

    Now, I'm not talking about raids or even the open group events in warhammer, just the quest stuff.

    I personally don't sign into pvp the same way you do as I don't think of it as wanting to have hot sex with a stranger.



    Ah, I didn't know how to describe that phenomenon that happens to my body, so I used the closest approximation. Which is...ok.

    But the point is: horrible systems. Warhammer Online's Renown. Talk about gnarly, fugly, mutated chaos spawn! It's a system that's fully closed off(=its own purpose), brings NOTHING to the game while adding HUGE DESIGN PROBLEMS(because it IS a huge design derp)! A system that is perpendicular to all other systems...really? That forces you into unnatural playstyles? SECOND XP BAR? wtf.

    I just realized that I don't have that much against PvP(just not my go to activity), but against the horrible purple bar from WAR / RoR.

    Have you ever encountered such a bullshit mechanic(that probably killed WAR by itself)?
    lol no worries on the pvp analogy. You do you.

    I don't remember the purple bar mechanic, even though I did download the private server stuff. I however hadn't done any pvp as I was trying to remember how to play my class through pve.

    What do you mean a system that is perpendicular to other systems?
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,417
    I honestly don't see the point of realm vs realm.  It seemed so pointless.  

    The game should be changed to 100 vs 100.  3 hour match.  Most point win.

    When the game last months, people stop caring who win.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,920
    PvE is a choreographed dance.

    PvP is improv comedy class.
    tzervo
    Discord ID: Night # 6102
    Current playing: 
    Elite Dangerous

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • AugustusGAugustusG Member UncommonPosts: 35
    edited March 29
    The only pvp I really liked in a MMOrpg was on 12sky2. Especialy the once a week total server war. Epic.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,591
    AAAMEOW said:
    I honestly don't see the point of realm vs realm.  It seemed so pointless.  

    The game should be changed to 100 vs 100.  3 hour match.  Most point win.

    When the game last months, people stop caring who win.
    It's supposed to promote a team effort, working with people who you have worked with before. 

    there is a certain camaraderie to the whole thing or at least there is supposed to be.

    In Lineage 2 it was clan pride and alliance pride. If you were part of a clan or alliance people knew you and your group's reputation.

    YashaX
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,437
    AAAMEOW said:
    I honestly don't see the point of realm vs realm.  It seemed so pointless.  

    The game should be changed to 100 vs 100.  3 hour match.  Most point win.

    When the game last months, people stop caring who win.
    I couldn't disagree more. Endless RvR is what MMO PvP should be all about.

    Time limited matches are alien to a permanent 24/7 world setting. They make about as much sense as resetting the PvE part of the game every 3 hours.

    Also scoreboards in MMOs absolutely suck because they refocus the game on "me, me, me" instead of us which is also what MMOs are about.
    TwistedSister77GdemamiSlapshot1188bcbullyYashaX
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 754
    edited March 29
    OP - welcome to the adrenaline rush of PvP.  I fully enjoy it.  It certainly can be frustrating at times, but that's the challenge (vs PvE scripted combat).  I do like PvE too, but like you... PvE is chill and pretty easy in MMORPGS aside from the hardest raids.

    Warhammer Reckoning has the best RvR currently imo... which is all about group PvP play.  For those who don't know RvR leads to end game City Sieges in this game... 20 vs 20 multi stage scenario where you can earn tokens for the best gear in the game.  

    Many here are anti-PvP, so I'm sure you'll get some negative feedback.  Play on!  

    (PS - from our warhammer Reckoning thread, glad you decided to dip your toe in the RvR.  Get your renown levels up!  Really important.)
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,920
    OP - welcome to the adrenaline rush of PvP.  I fully enjoy it.  It certainly can be frustrating at times, but that's the challenge (vs PvE scripted combat).  I do like PvE too, but like you... PvE is chill and pretty easy in MMORPGS aside from the hardest raids.

    Warhammer Reckoning has the best RvR currently imo... which is all about group PvP play.  For those who don't know RvR leads to end game City Sieges in this game... 20 vs 20 multi stage scenario where you can earn tokens for the best gear in the game.  

    Many here are anti-PvP, so I'm sure you'll get some negative feedback.  Play on!  

    (PS - from our warhammer Reckoning thread, glad you decided to dip your toe in the RvR.  Get your renown levels up!  Really important.)
    I lived and breathed Gw2 WvW. I didnt do anything else other than map completion. I pretty much 100% enjoy that kind of content. 

    How close is Warhammer RvR to that? Can anyone explain?
    Discord ID: Night # 6102
    Current playing: 
    Elite Dangerous

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 754
    edited March 29
    Nyctelios said:
    OP - welcome to the adrenaline rush of PvP.  I fully enjoy it.  It certainly can be frustrating at times, but that's the challenge (vs PvE scripted combat).  I do like PvE too, but like you... PvE is chill and pretty easy in MMORPGS aside from the hardest raids.

    Warhammer Reckoning has the best RvR currently imo... which is all about group PvP play.  For those who don't know RvR leads to end game City Sieges in this game... 20 vs 20 multi stage scenario where you can earn tokens for the best gear in the game.  

    Many here are anti-PvP, so I'm sure you'll get some negative feedback.  Play on!  

    (PS - from our warhammer Reckoning thread, glad you decided to dip your toe in the RvR.  Get your renown levels up!  Really important.)
    I lived and breathed Gw2 WvW. I didnt do anything else other than map completion. I pretty much 100% enjoy that kind of content. 

    How close is Warhammer RvR to that? Can anyone explain?
    Completely free game... you can get to end game RvR at level 19 (you get boosted to level 46 (level 40 is max) which works really well... of course you don't have the skills).  Joining 20 man warbands are super  easy (1 click for public ones).

    So, I'd recommend doing scenarios (that you can start a level 1) and just level up... probably take you 8 hrs or less.  There is low level RvR, but it is nothing like high level RvR.  The battles are large... sieges avg 300 vs 300 but can get much bigger... that doesn't include other couple hundred in the same zone pvping away from the siege.  Synergies matter a lot.

    There are 3 zones open for RvR at a time, so there is a bit of strategy as to where to commit faction players.  Yes, like GW2 there are resources (spots) for getting resources and bringing them back to level up your zone keep (ambushes, ninja caps).
    Nyctelios
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,904
    Gorwe said:
    Right, so I was recently mucking about WAR / RoR and that made me question my stance towards PvE and PvP. PvP generates a stronger "reflex", so I chose to focus on that. This is the meat of the matter:

    PvP is..."hot". It's very intense, very gripping when it happens and I literally feel more alive because of it. But! It's the equal to wanting to have an intercourse with a hot stranger - it's a very intense and focused activity ; nothing much going on. Also! My perfectionism(...gee thanks Hardcore and GW 1) complexes get in the way and I want to fight, I don't want any escorts, supplies etc. Note: This is about CONSENSUAL PvP ; Griefing can fuck right off.

    PvE, otoh, is generally quite a relaxing activity, but it's also quite dull and rote. I like being in control, I like doing whatever, I like the general premise of PvE(even group one which I don't like half as much), but it simply does not have the "spark" of consensual PvP. And neither does it compare well to Singleplayer RPGs. Because if a game is good in SP elements(SWTOR, TSW, OtherLands etc)...why is it not a Singleplayer game?

    What do you think?

    For me, PvE is just problem solving. You are presented with a problem: the boss, the adds, the room. You go through a learning process trying to figure out what the process is, then you come up with a solution.

    I have fun during the learning process, I feel satisfaction at solving the problem, and if the mechanics have sufficient depth then I have fun repeating the problem to find not just a solution, but the best solution.

    Given the logical nature of computers and the typical implementation of combat mechanics in an RPG, PvE is essentially just a sudoku puzzle with cool graphics.

    There is also comfort in knowing that all PvE has been designed to be beaten, and it doesn't change. I KNOW there is a solution, which means if im not succeeding then I know I need to change something. It's a good prompt to learn more and get better.




    PvP....whilst the mechanics are obviously the same as PvE, I'm now trying to beat the player, not the system. It's much more unpredictable and involves more psychology which is great. Other players aren't there to be beaten either, they're trying to beat me.

    It is exciting, the heart rate does get going and the fun factor can be miles higher than PvE. But, as the fun is entirely dependent on other people, it's highly inconsistent. A "good" fight - something that is close and long lasting - is better than anything PvE has to offer, but a good fight is rare to find.



    I actually PvP to relax (in mmos). Death is expected, and therefore not something to shy away from. Just go for it, extract as much fun as possible and don't worry about anything. Search out the good fights, avoid the bad ones. Rejoice in a good challenge, forget about the bad ones.

    I also actually do the majority of my roleplaying in PvP too. I'm definitely not what you'd think of as a traditional roleplayer, but my roleplaying takes the form of actions, rather than words. If I'm playing a character that is a bit of a bloodthirsty barbarian, then in PvP I'll make that character charge the enemy like a madman, even though he's likely to die. If I have a cowardly character, I'll play him like a coward. Often, my roleplaying decions are based on builds and class aesthetics. For example, my main in LotRO was a captain, and their DPS spec was labelled "Lead the Charge"......so thats exactly what I'd do!




    I think that the main difference for me is simply the attitude I bring to each type of content. With PvE, I always have specific goals in mind: beating content, leveling up, getting gear. Achieving those goals is satisfying, but not achieving them (or not achieving them quick enough) is irritating.

    With PvP, my only goal is to have fun. I really don't care about leveling, ranking, gear or any of that shit, I just want to find a good fight and have a laugh.
    TwistedSister77
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 513
    edited March 29

    OP - welcome to the adrenaline rush of PvP.  I fully enjoy it.  It certainly can be frustrating at times, but that's the challenge (vs PvE scripted combat).  I do like PvE too, but like you... PvE is chill and pretty easy in MMORPGS aside from the hardest raids.

    Warhammer Reckoning has the best RvR currently imo... which is all about group PvP play.  For those who don't know RvR leads to end game City Sieges in this game... 20 vs 20 multi stage scenario where you can earn tokens for the best gear in the game.  

    Many here are anti-PvP, so I'm sure you'll get some negative feedback.  Play on!  

    (PS - from our warhammer Reckoning thread, glad you decided to dip your toe in the RvR.  Get your renown levels up!  Really important.)

    I don't know whether I'll continue though, it's kinda boring to me. RvR is a FAR CRY from what I remember, PvE is half broken and the entire experience is just disappointing. It just proves "panta rhei" correct ; once I found this game fun, nowadays...panta rhei. Something changed. For one, I don't like the walking speed. For two, I don't like how uber reliant you are on a healer. For three, quests(my bread and butter) are broken and that's just disappointing.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,190
    I never found a game where  ienjoyed it...The communities in PVP games were usually just ruthless and awful....Battleground type PVP is OK but open world where you get idiots killing helpless noobs non-stop is a joke.
    hayes303Gdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,205
    AAAMEOW said:
    I honestly don't see the point of realm vs realm.  It seemed so pointless.  

    The game should be changed to 100 vs 100.  3 hour match.  Most point win.

    When the game last months, people stop caring who win.
    Absolutely not.  DAoC was the greatest gaming experience I have ever had and I HATED the other sides.  I certainly cared.  I probably cared MORE after a few months than I did when I started.  Palomides Hibs 4ever!

    Its the difference between an instanced ESport and a persistent WAR.  Totally different genres.
    Sovrath

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,190
    AAAMEOW said:
    I honestly don't see the point of realm vs realm.  It seemed so pointless.  

    The game should be changed to 100 vs 100.  3 hour match.  Most point win.

    When the game last months, people stop caring who win.
    Absolutely not.  DAoC was the greatest gaming experience I have ever had and I HATED the other sides.  I certainly cared.  I probably cared MORE after a few months than I did when I started.  Palomides Hibs 4ever!

    Its the difference between an instanced ESport and a persistent WAR.  Totally different genres.

    Heh I liked DAoC more for the PVE than for the PVP...I really didn't enjoy getting killed in two seconds by stealthers in PVP.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,205
    AAAMEOW said:
    I honestly don't see the point of realm vs realm.  It seemed so pointless.  

    The game should be changed to 100 vs 100.  3 hour match.  Most point win.

    When the game last months, people stop caring who win.
    Absolutely not.  DAoC was the greatest gaming experience I have ever had and I HATED the other sides.  I certainly cared.  I probably cared MORE after a few months than I did when I started.  Palomides Hibs 4ever!

    Its the difference between an instanced ESport and a persistent WAR.  Totally different genres.

    Heh I liked DAoC more for the PVE than for the PVP...I really didn't enjoy getting killed in two seconds by stealthers in PVP.
    Yup... it was a complete game.
    Theocritus

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,311
    Gorwe said:
    Right, so I was recently mucking about WAR / RoR and that made me question my stance towards PvE and PvP. PvP generates a stronger "reflex", so I chose to focus on that. This is the meat of the matter:

    PvP is..."hot". It's very intense, very gripping when it happens and I literally feel more alive because of it. But! It's the equal to wanting to have an intercourse with a hot stranger - it's a very intense and focused activity ; nothing much going on. Also! My perfectionism(...gee thanks Hardcore and GW 1) complexes get in the way and I want to fight, I don't want any escorts, supplies etc. Note: This is about CONSENSUAL PvP ; Griefing can fuck right off.

    PvE, otoh, is generally quite a relaxing activity, but it's also quite dull and rote. I like being in control, I like doing whatever, I like the general premise of PvE(even group one which I don't like half as much), but it simply does not have the "spark" of consensual PvP. And neither does it compare well to Singleplayer RPGs. Because if a game is good in SP elements(SWTOR, TSW, OtherLands etc)...why is it not a Singleplayer game?

    What do you think?
    Amen OP welcome to the club
    TwistedSister77Theocritus
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,841
    I know the feeling because I felt my heart pump in WoW BGs. It was really trying to beat right out of my chest. It was so exhilarating. I just love it but I am also lousy at it so I get completely smashed. I try to mainly do support though but I still get the rush.

    I like PvP but only in BGs. No open world FFA for me.
    GorweBloodaxesTheocritus
    Chamber of Chains
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 513
    edited March 30
    cheyane said:
    I know the feeling because I felt my heart pump in WoW BGs. It was really trying to beat right out of my chest. It was so exhilarating. I just love it but I am also lousy at it so I get completely smashed. I try to mainly do support though but I still get the rush.

    I like PvP but only in BGs. No open world FFA for me.

    Yeah, it is an awesome feeling, is it not? Why does it happen? If only I didn't have that issue, but if I did not, the phenomenon would also most likely not be there. Hm...interesting. Most interesting.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,417
    I have a question regarding GW2 and ESO.  Is world vs world even popular in those game?  

    I always thought it is pretty dead in those game.  I'm eagerly awaiting camelot unchained and see how it'll end.

    Or crowfall for that matter, even though it is somewhat different.

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,508
    cheyane said:
    I know the feeling because I felt my heart pump in WoW BGs. It was really trying to beat right out of my chest. It was so exhilarating. I just love it but I am also lousy at it so I get completely smashed. I try to mainly do support though but I still get the rush.

    I like PvP but only in BGs. No open world FFA for me.
    That was my experience as well. 

    I LOVED playing mount & blade warband online (essentially pvp modes), but everyday, for the first couple rounds, my heart would start pumping so hard that my hands would start to shake.

    I'm not a pvp guy by any means, but I too would participate from time to time in BGs and such in certain mmorpgs. I just don't enjoy open world pvp. Especially, if your own faction can attack you as well.

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,141
    In diablo 2 hardcore, i duel with no hacks and crap and my heart and adrenaline would be going like crazy before and during the fight.
    Gorwe
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 513
    In diablo 2 hardcore, i duel with no hacks and crap and my heart and adrenaline would be going like crazy before and during the fight.

    Yes, quite, Hardcore and Survivor(GW 1) caused quite some distress for me. I became quite careful and perfectionist due to it.

    Given that I generally approach MMOs like that...now you (all) understand. :)
  • ringdanyringdany Member UncommonPosts: 167
    Champion of Regnum's pve is really boring. But.. they are moving past that with the Squid Island updates. Hopefully, this may allow players to fully grind with PvP.

    Well made PvP is basically speed chess. PvE of all sorts is a very poor competitor to that for entertainment. I tend to think repetitive PvE (even monster Hunter level AI style), leads to dementia. You just are not adapting enough. PvP changes with the seasons, players, gear, game, moment to moment. You really feel the adrenaline flow with PvP.

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