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MMORPG Guilds

XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,323

They’re a critical part of community building in MMORPGs, but to my knowledge there hasn’t been much effort put into them over the decades. There have been a few games that made adjustments, but I think WoW and ESO, sadly, are the only ones to build on the idea of guilds with achievements, perks, guild trading, and other content related additions, at least in the sense of potentially making those features core.

It surprises me, because I think guilds provide staying power for players, yet the same fundamental problems exist, such as single points of failure with absent guild leaders, limited configuration in how they can operate, lack of tools that help set, manage, and achieve goals. Guilds are essentially just a tag and a chat channel with a few permission flags, and it doesn’t help attract the growing amount of players wanting to solo an entire multi-player online game instead of actually finding people to play with. It’s something that I personally think should have had a lot more attention devoted to over the years.

One aspect that I think needs to change are guild charters. There should be options to create a democratic system where the guild votes on every aspect of the guild, or a democratic republic where players elect leaders . It should be possible to create everything from a tribe to a corporate structure. There should be an ever growing list of options for how a guild is structured to accommodate the like-minded players within that guild. I think these types of ideals at conception would better help players come together, and stay together.

What do you think, have guilds evolved the way you thought they would? Do you think their implementation are a key factor in a game’s player loss?

AlBQuirkyScotHatefullYashaXBrainy
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Comments

  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 754
    edited March 29
    Yes, there should be more incentive to be in guilds... but not make them overpowered.  Games have done this with guild crafting and resources... guild cities... etc.

    As to control of guilds, that's a bit dicey, I've seen guilds literally stolen by great guild leaders because they shared permissions.  From my experience, if a guild has terrible leadership, it will not last.  

    However, if a guild wants to charter itself as a democratically run guild... yes, the tools should be in the game to do so.

    Being in a guild, even as a casual (there are casual guilds or guilds that accept casuals) can really enhance the game experience... IF the guild is the right fit for you (e.g. if you are looking for like minded players).

    People confuse, "I want to mostly solo play " with being incompatible with joining a guild.  This is pretty far from the truth.  I've joined guilds where we only had 1-2 mandatory events a week if logged in (for 2-3 hours). 

    Otherwise I was free to do whatever, with or without guild mates.  But it's great to be able to have guild mates to group up, trade, ask questions, etc... anytime.
    AlBQuirkyYashaX
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,904
    To the main question: yes, guilds have evolved in the way I thought the would. They've devolved, essentially. As the reliance on other people has lessened over the years, so has the reliance on guilds. They're just not important for the average player beyond being a convenient chat channel for forming regular groups.



    As to your opinion on the importance of guilds, I agree. Just as in real life, there is a very real and important hierarchy to the types of players in a game. Guilds, and their leaders, can make-or-break a game for many players. If you find a good guild with a good leader, then the game becomes soooo much more enjoyable and chances are that you'll stick around a lot longer.



    I am a former guild leader and really enjoyed it most of the time. It wasnt something I aspired to originally, it was more a case of "I have shit I want to do and the only way I will achieve it is to take charge". Biggest problem I had was motivation. When I was enjoying the game, I was a great leader. However, as I approached the end of my time in a given game, my motivation would drop and I'd become a bad leader. I'd lead fewer impromptu groups, I'd organise less social events and just generally take less of an interest in everything. When I'd eventually quit the game, it was basically the end of the guild within that game (we were a multi-game guild, so the guild lived on in other games under other leaders).



    What would I have liked to see in MMOs to support guilds?


    1) Multi-platform access to the guild.
    Guilds generally only exist and are accessible within the game itself. So, I would like to see access to guild features outside of the game too. Basically, access to guild functions through a normal website, or through an app on your phone. This would be in support of the following suggested features


    2) Calendars
    I know some MMOs have this, but none of the ones I played did. We used a 3rd party website to organise events, like raids, training, pvp nights, community events etc. The website we used also included a signup sheet. So, build this into the guilds features so everyone can access the calendar, both in game and out of game.


    3) DKP / Suicide Kings
    As with calendars, we had to use a 3rd party website to organise our loot rules. Well, we basically just had a spreadsheet shared amongst the guild. So, again, build it into the guild's features and allow access outside of the game. Some flexibility would be required and guilds can get very particular about "fair" loot rules. Also only applicable to endgame raiding guilds.


    4) Voice Chat
    Again, we had to use a 3rd party program (ventrilo) in order to have decent quality voice chat for raiding and pvp. It makes a huge difference being able to chat to others when doing hard content, so build it into the game! some, like LotRO, do have integrated voice chat, but it's only for your group or raid. It would be great to have a few guild-specific voice channels you could access too.


    5) Message Board / Forum
    My guild had it's own website, with forum built in. At times it was more active than the game we were playing. Discussions of classes, builds, tactics, future updates, desires etc, all very useful and important and it was a way for the guild to interact outside of the game. So, build it into the guild's features, and give access outside of the game too.


    6) Guild livery
    Uniforms have a powerful place in the human psyche. They provide a sense of belonging and of ownership of any given group. So, give the same tools to a guild via a customised livery, so that each guild member can show off their colours and gain that sense of belonging. WAR did this a bit with their guild cloaks, but on my server at least, half the destruction guilds ended up with basically identical cloaks!




    I was tempted to include something about player / guild cities, like SWG. However, I'm of mixed feelings on the subject. On the one hand, I love the idea, and having an entire village/town/city that your guild owns and occupies is great! On the other, if they are too useful then players disappear into their own cities too often, reducing the feeling of being in a shared world. And if theyre not useful, then whats the point?

    Also, I would worry about the things you mentioned regarding guild charters. I feel like there are too many different ways to run a guild that trying to qualify them into a set of rules and options the players can choose from may be too limiting. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just that I can't quite envisage how it would work.
    XodicUngoodAlBQuirkySlapshot1188Scot
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 754
    To the main question: yes, guilds have evolved in the way I thought the would. They've devolved, essentially. As the reliance on other people has lessened over the years, so has the reliance on guilds. They're just not important for the average player beyond being a convenient chat channel for forming regular groups.



    As to your opinion on the importance of guilds, I agree. Just as in real life, there is a very real and important hierarchy to the types of players in a game. Guilds, and their leaders, can make-or-break a game for many players. If you find a good guild with a good leader, then the game becomes soooo much more enjoyable and chances are that you'll stick around a lot longer.



    I am a former guild leader and really enjoyed it most of the time. It wasnt something I aspired to originally, it was more a case of "I have shit I want to do and the only way I will achieve it is to take charge". Biggest problem I had was motivation. When I was enjoying the game, I was a great leader. However, as I approached the end of my time in a given game, my motivation would drop and I'd become a bad leader. I'd lead fewer impromptu groups, I'd organise less social events and just generally take less of an interest in everything. When I'd eventually quit the game, it was basically the end of the guild within that game (we were a multi-game guild, so the guild lived on in other games under other leaders).



    What would I have liked to see in MMOs to support guilds?


    1) Multi-platform access to the guild.
    Guilds generally only exist and are accessible within the game itself. So, I would like to see access to guild features outside of the game too. Basically, access to guild functions through a normal website, or through an app on your phone. This would be in support of the following suggested features


    2) Calendars
    I know some MMOs have this, but none of the ones I played did. We used a 3rd party website to organise events, like raids, training, pvp nights, community events etc. The website we used also included a signup sheet. So, build this into the guilds features so everyone can access the calendar, both in game and out of game.


    3) DKP / Suicide Kings
    As with calendars, we had to use a 3rd party website to organise our loot rules. Well, we basically just had a spreadsheet shared amongst the guild. So, again, build it into the guild's features and allow access outside of the game. Some flexibility would be required and guilds can get very particular about "fair" loot rules. Also only applicable to endgame raiding guilds.


    4) Voice Chat
    Again, we had to use a 3rd party program (ventrilo) in order to have decent quality voice chat for raiding and pvp. It makes a huge difference being able to chat to others when doing hard content, so build it into the game! some, like LotRO, do have integrated voice chat, but it's only for your group or raid. It would be great to have a few guild-specific voice channels you could access too.


    5) Message Board / Forum
    My guild had it's own website, with forum built in. At times it was more active than the game we were playing. Discussions of classes, builds, tactics, future updates, desires etc, all very useful and important and it was a way for the guild to interact outside of the game. So, build it into the guild's features, and give access outside of the game too.


    6) Guild livery
    Uniforms have a powerful place in the human psyche. They provide a sense of belonging and of ownership of any given group. So, give the same tools to a guild via a customised livery, so that each guild member can show off their colours and gain that sense of belonging. WAR did this a bit with their guild cloaks, but on my server at least, half the destruction guilds ended up with basically identical cloaks!




    I was tempted to include something about player / guild cities, like SWG. However, I'm of mixed feelings on the subject. On the one hand, I love the idea, and having an entire village/town/city that your guild owns and occupies is great! On the other, if they are too useful then players disappear into their own cities too often, reducing the feeling of being in a shared world. And if theyre not useful, then whats the point?

    Also, I would worry about the things you mentioned regarding guild charters. I feel like there are too many different ways to run a guild that trying to qualify them into a set of rules and options the players can choose from may be too limiting. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just that I can't quite envisage how it would work.
    Judging by "ventrillo" part... you'd be pleased that Discord has many of these features.  Phone support, calendar, message boards, member list, who's playing what...
    AlBQuirky
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,904
    To the main question: yes, guilds have evolved in the way I thought the would. They've devolved, essentially. As the reliance on other people has lessened over the years, so has the reliance on guilds. They're just not important for the average player beyond being a convenient chat channel for forming regular groups.



    As to your opinion on the importance of guilds, I agree. Just as in real life, there is a very real and important hierarchy to the types of players in a game. Guilds, and their leaders, can make-or-break a game for many players. If you find a good guild with a good leader, then the game becomes soooo much more enjoyable and chances are that you'll stick around a lot longer.



    I am a former guild leader and really enjoyed it most of the time. It wasnt something I aspired to originally, it was more a case of "I have shit I want to do and the only way I will achieve it is to take charge". Biggest problem I had was motivation. When I was enjoying the game, I was a great leader. However, as I approached the end of my time in a given game, my motivation would drop and I'd become a bad leader. I'd lead fewer impromptu groups, I'd organise less social events and just generally take less of an interest in everything. When I'd eventually quit the game, it was basically the end of the guild within that game (we were a multi-game guild, so the guild lived on in other games under other leaders).



    What would I have liked to see in MMOs to support guilds?


    1) Multi-platform access to the guild.
    Guilds generally only exist and are accessible within the game itself. So, I would like to see access to guild features outside of the game too. Basically, access to guild functions through a normal website, or through an app on your phone. This would be in support of the following suggested features


    2) Calendars
    I know some MMOs have this, but none of the ones I played did. We used a 3rd party website to organise events, like raids, training, pvp nights, community events etc. The website we used also included a signup sheet. So, build this into the guilds features so everyone can access the calendar, both in game and out of game.


    3) DKP / Suicide Kings
    As with calendars, we had to use a 3rd party website to organise our loot rules. Well, we basically just had a spreadsheet shared amongst the guild. So, again, build it into the guild's features and allow access outside of the game. Some flexibility would be required and guilds can get very particular about "fair" loot rules. Also only applicable to endgame raiding guilds.


    4) Voice Chat
    Again, we had to use a 3rd party program (ventrilo) in order to have decent quality voice chat for raiding and pvp. It makes a huge difference being able to chat to others when doing hard content, so build it into the game! some, like LotRO, do have integrated voice chat, but it's only for your group or raid. It would be great to have a few guild-specific voice channels you could access too.


    5) Message Board / Forum
    My guild had it's own website, with forum built in. At times it was more active than the game we were playing. Discussions of classes, builds, tactics, future updates, desires etc, all very useful and important and it was a way for the guild to interact outside of the game. So, build it into the guild's features, and give access outside of the game too.


    6) Guild livery
    Uniforms have a powerful place in the human psyche. They provide a sense of belonging and of ownership of any given group. So, give the same tools to a guild via a customised livery, so that each guild member can show off their colours and gain that sense of belonging. WAR did this a bit with their guild cloaks, but on my server at least, half the destruction guilds ended up with basically identical cloaks!




    I was tempted to include something about player / guild cities, like SWG. However, I'm of mixed feelings on the subject. On the one hand, I love the idea, and having an entire village/town/city that your guild owns and occupies is great! On the other, if they are too useful then players disappear into their own cities too often, reducing the feeling of being in a shared world. And if theyre not useful, then whats the point?

    Also, I would worry about the things you mentioned regarding guild charters. I feel like there are too many different ways to run a guild that trying to qualify them into a set of rules and options the players can choose from may be too limiting. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just that I can't quite envisage how it would work.
    Judging by "ventrillo" part... you'd be pleased that Discord has many of these features.  Phone support, calendar, message boards, member list, who's playing what...

    Yeh, I understand that Discord has done good things, but it's still a separate, 3rd party system.

    If they integrated it with the game properly, then that would be a good thing, but the point of putting everything into the game itself is to reduce friction as much as possible. You don't want your average player having to sign up to other websites in order to play your game.
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Xodic said:

    They’re a critical part of community building in MMORPGs, but to my knowledge there hasn’t been much effort put into them over the decades. There have been a few games that made adjustments, but I think WoW and ESO, sadly, are the only ones to build on the idea of guilds with achievements, perks, guild trading, and other content related additions, at least in the sense of potentially making those features core.

    It surprises me, because I think guilds provide staying power for players, yet the same fundamental problems exist, such as single points of failure with absent guild leaders, limited configuration in how they can operate, lack of tools that help set, manage, and achieve goals. Guilds are essentially just a tag and a chat channel with a few permission flags, and it doesn’t help attract the growing amount of players wanting to solo an entire multi-player online game instead of actually finding people to play with. It’s something that I personally think should have had a lot more attention devoted to over the years.

    One aspect that I think needs to change are guild charters. There should be options to create a democratic system where the guild votes on every aspect of the guild, or a democratic republic where players elect leaders . It should be possible to create everything from a tribe to a corporate structure. There should be an ever growing list of options for how a guild is structured to accommodate the like-minded players within that guild. I think these types of ideals at conception would better help players come together, and stay together.

    What do you think, have guilds evolved the way you thought they would? Do you think their implementation are a key factor in a game’s player loss?

    Guilds do provide staying power for MMOs, as they provide that social network that keeps player coming back to a game, sometimes just to chat with guildmates and friends.

    But for the most part, they have no evolved much as it were, and in function and foundation have remained vastly the same, which is shame really.

    The main problem with guilds, comes from the idea of it being despotic, where one person (The leader) can throw anyone out, at any time, for any or no reason at all.

    Personally, I like the idea of different kinds of social systems, likes Tribes, Clans, Guilds, Corporations, etc, each with their own system of hierarchy and methods on how they function.

    Like for example, lets say a Corporation gets led by the person with the most activity in the Corp/Game, but while they lead the Corp, they are not the undistributed rulers, all invites and kicks need to be validated by the board, (The other top 10 most active members of the Corp) with a majority rules system, and their decisions are more minimal, with most of the tiers being based on performance and activity level. This is a great co-op system for players that like that kind of thing. The CEO's job would more about what boons and other things the Corp offered, their development direction as it were.

    Clans would be more akin to in-game families, where everyone has the same Surname, and once in, you are bloodline to the Clan but you could leave at any time of your own volition, but the only way in, is to either be adopted, in which case your position is based on the member that adopted you, and you are under them, or married into the clan, in which case you are an equal to your spouse in clan tier.

    And of course each group would have their own offerings and the like.

    So putting in things other then the proverbial "Guild" would be a great evolution for MMO's.
    XodicAlBQuirkyNeanderthal
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,323
    Ungood said:
    Xodic said:

    They’re a critical part of community building in MMORPGs, but to my knowledge there hasn’t been much effort put into them over the decades. There have been a few games that made adjustments, but I think WoW and ESO, sadly, are the only ones to build on the idea of guilds with achievements, perks, guild trading, and other content related additions, at least in the sense of potentially making those features core.

    It surprises me, because I think guilds provide staying power for players, yet the same fundamental problems exist, such as single points of failure with absent guild leaders, limited configuration in how they can operate, lack of tools that help set, manage, and achieve goals. Guilds are essentially just a tag and a chat channel with a few permission flags, and it doesn’t help attract the growing amount of players wanting to solo an entire multi-player online game instead of actually finding people to play with. It’s something that I personally think should have had a lot more attention devoted to over the years.

    One aspect that I think needs to change are guild charters. There should be options to create a democratic system where the guild votes on every aspect of the guild, or a democratic republic where players elect leaders . It should be possible to create everything from a tribe to a corporate structure. There should be an ever growing list of options for how a guild is structured to accommodate the like-minded players within that guild. I think these types of ideals at conception would better help players come together, and stay together.

    What do you think, have guilds evolved the way you thought they would? Do you think their implementation are a key factor in a game’s player loss?

    Guilds do provide staying power for MMOs, as they provide that social network that keeps player coming back to a game, sometimes just to chat with guildmates and friends.

    But for the most part, they have no evolved much as it were, and in function and foundation have remained vastly the same, which is shame really.

    The main problem with guilds, comes from the idea of it being despotic, where one person (The leader) can throw anyone out, at any time, for any or no reason at all.

    Personally, I like the idea of different kinds of social systems, likes Tribes, Clans, Guilds, Corporations, etc, each with their own system of hierarchy and methods on how they function.

    Like for example, lets say a Corporation gets led by the person with the most activity in the Corp/Game, but while they lead the Corp, they are not the undistributed rulers, all invites and kicks need to be validated by the board, (The other top 10 most active members of the Corp) with a majority rules system, and their decisions are more minimal, with most of the tiers being based on performance and activity level. This is a great co-op system for players that like that kind of thing. The CEO's job would more about what boons and other things the Corp offered, their development direction as it were.

    Clans would be more akin to in-game families, where everyone has the same Surname, and once in, you are bloodline to the Clan but you could leave at any time of your own volition, but the only way in, is to either be adopted, in which case your position is based on the member that adopted you, and you are under them, or married into the clan, in which case you are an equal to your spouse in clan tier.

    And of course each group would have their own offerings and the like.

    So putting in things other then the proverbial "Guild" would be a great evolution for MMO's.

    Your idea of how a clan structure could work is interesting. It would be a perfect system for an actual family that just wants to play together with their cousins, brothers, sisters, parents etc. There are a ton of possibilities that can link an in-depth guild system to actual gameplay and content. Most importantly to me, though, is the structure that helps players connect. I usually find guilds in any game that I play, but sometimes I'm reluctant to invest time and effort in the unknown. It would be helpful for a group of people to not just state their intentions, but to be able to apply actual game rules that define it, and support it. 

    UngoodAlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Xodic said:
    Ungood said:
    Xodic said:

    They’re a critical part of community building in MMORPGs, but to my knowledge there hasn’t been much effort put into them over the decades. There have been a few games that made adjustments, but I think WoW and ESO, sadly, are the only ones to build on the idea of guilds with achievements, perks, guild trading, and other content related additions, at least in the sense of potentially making those features core.

    It surprises me, because I think guilds provide staying power for players, yet the same fundamental problems exist, such as single points of failure with absent guild leaders, limited configuration in how they can operate, lack of tools that help set, manage, and achieve goals. Guilds are essentially just a tag and a chat channel with a few permission flags, and it doesn’t help attract the growing amount of players wanting to solo an entire multi-player online game instead of actually finding people to play with. It’s something that I personally think should have had a lot more attention devoted to over the years.

    One aspect that I think needs to change are guild charters. There should be options to create a democratic system where the guild votes on every aspect of the guild, or a democratic republic where players elect leaders . It should be possible to create everything from a tribe to a corporate structure. There should be an ever growing list of options for how a guild is structured to accommodate the like-minded players within that guild. I think these types of ideals at conception would better help players come together, and stay together.

    What do you think, have guilds evolved the way you thought they would? Do you think their implementation are a key factor in a game’s player loss?

    Guilds do provide staying power for MMOs, as they provide that social network that keeps player coming back to a game, sometimes just to chat with guildmates and friends.

    But for the most part, they have no evolved much as it were, and in function and foundation have remained vastly the same, which is shame really.

    The main problem with guilds, comes from the idea of it being despotic, where one person (The leader) can throw anyone out, at any time, for any or no reason at all.

    Personally, I like the idea of different kinds of social systems, likes Tribes, Clans, Guilds, Corporations, etc, each with their own system of hierarchy and methods on how they function.

    Like for example, lets say a Corporation gets led by the person with the most activity in the Corp/Game, but while they lead the Corp, they are not the undistributed rulers, all invites and kicks need to be validated by the board, (The other top 10 most active members of the Corp) with a majority rules system, and their decisions are more minimal, with most of the tiers being based on performance and activity level. This is a great co-op system for players that like that kind of thing. The CEO's job would more about what boons and other things the Corp offered, their development direction as it were.

    Clans would be more akin to in-game families, where everyone has the same Surname, and once in, you are bloodline to the Clan but you could leave at any time of your own volition, but the only way in, is to either be adopted, in which case your position is based on the member that adopted you, and you are under them, or married into the clan, in which case you are an equal to your spouse in clan tier.

    And of course each group would have their own offerings and the like.

    So putting in things other then the proverbial "Guild" would be a great evolution for MMO's.

    Your idea of how a clan structure could work is interesting. It would be a perfect system for an actual family that just wants to play together with their cousins, brothers, sisters, parents etc. There are a ton of possibilities that can link an in-depth guild system to actual gameplay and content. Most importantly to me, though, is the structure that helps players connect. I usually find guilds in any game that I play, but sometimes I'm reluctant to invest time and effort in the unknown. It would be helpful for a group of people to not just state their intentions, but to be able to apply actual game rules that define it, and support it. 

    I have been wanting a clan/family like set up since my EQ1 days, when I played with RL friends, people I had known for years, we played D&D on the weekends, so, having a private Clan with them, while also being able to join a guild, would have been epic.

    But as you can see, MMO's have dome pretty much nothing to build up more social systems like that. Nothing at all, which is a shame really, as it has such potential in an MMO to build a family or close friend style unit. Share a Surname, maybe a family coat of arms, etc.

    But with that said, I also find myself often reluctant to just donate from my own coffers and resources to what amounts to Someone Else's Guild.

    This is why I believe that Guild rewards should just come inherent from play, as long as you rep the guild, they get base rewards for your activities and level up accordingly. Thus way you are not investing anything out of your own pocket to some other entity.

    On feature that DDO uses is Renown that players earn just by playing the game, Renown is like EXP for a guild, and with that, they level up and get access to more/better amenities, which all the players in the guild get access to. I like that system better than needing to invest into the guild directly from my own coffers. This way, it works for them for me to be in the guild, playing and I am not losing anything in the process of giving to them. While their system is far from perfect, it is a step in the right direction with that regard.

    Personally, I would like to see it that things like Renown be bound to Player, so that if someone leaves a guild (or gets removed) the guild loses their contribution, and could even de-level if they removed too many or their very active members, which would make sense, much like any major entity that losing famous or keynote people will take a hit to their credibility and ability to preform, even losing clients in the process, so too should in-game guilds. This makes it very real that a guild is made up of their members, not some standalone entity unaffected by who joins and who leaves.

    I think there is a lot more that could be done, that just isn't done, and the reality is, for a game like an MMO, that really builds their survival in the social aspect of online games, this is really an shame.
    XodicAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,214
    I hate Guilds in MMOs. I just recently joined a guild for WvW in GW2. before then, I havnt taking guilds seriously since TBC WoW
    UngoodAlBQuirky

    image

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,398
    What surprises me most about games and guilds is that no game has undertaken the task of providing simple administration tools to help run a guild.  A selection of loot schemes built-in (not every guild uses the same looting schemes), with attendance tools to speed up the process of raiding.  Games have already lost the battle against 3rd party voice chat utilities by being too late to incorporate.  Websites that support guilds require too much effort out-of-game -- entering attendance, increasing LootPoints, checking LootPoints, costs of raid loot, etc.  It can be done manually, but who really wants that much work?  Put some automated tools in-game.



    UngoodAlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,972
    I really don't like guilds, and haven't since I left EQ.  They're too much like a combination of a chore and a job.  "Do this, do that, tonight we're going to do X at 8pm and everyone should attend, don't forget to deposit resources and items in guild bank..."  Screw that.
    XodicTheocritusAlBQuirkyNeanderthal
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Dibdabs said:
    I really don't like guilds, and haven't since I left EQ.  They're too much like a combination of a chore and a job.  "Do this, do that, tonight we're going to do X at 8pm and everyone should attend, don't forget to deposit resources and items in guild bank..."  Screw that.
    See this is why I think simple attendance or the members just going about playing the game, should provide a guild with all their own guild-specific rewards for whatever it is they need to be more guild-ish.

    This way players do not have to give into the guild from their own private coffers, they do not need to "donate" anything. having active members is all a guild should need to have, it should not also need those members to give more.
    DibdabsAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,323
    Dibdabs said:
    I really don't like guilds, and haven't since I left EQ.  They're too much like a combination of a chore and a job.  "Do this, do that, tonight we're going to do X at 8pm and everyone should attend, don't forget to deposit resources and items in guild bank..."  Screw that.


    How could guild design be improved to better accommodate people such as yourself, who don't actually want to be involved in an in-game community due to the way they currently work? 

    What if you had an option of joining something like a trader's guild, where your share in profits through crafting and gathering are based on your participation, or some other structure that would relieve the feeling of needing to do chores when you don't want to do them, and being rewarded and feeling like you're contributing when you do?

    A lot of game rules could be changed to alleviate the strict event times that guilds have. The reason guilds are compelled to do an event at a certain time and require participation is because there's a lockout for that event, and it can only be accomplished once a week. What if raids and the like were tied to resources in such a way that it would take roughly a week to gather the required resources, but those resources can be banked to allow an event to be done back to back, at any time, over the course of any amount of days?
    AlBQuirkyUngood
  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,972
    edited March 31
    To me, a Guild should just be an informal bunch of players who you can call on to watch each other's backs if need be, lend a hand for a few minutes with a tricky mob and to have a dependable pool of people who might just fancy an impromptu dungeon run.  In EQ that's what the guild I was in was like.  Then they got delusions of grandeur and tried to become a "proper" guild and it all went to ratshit. 

    These days, all you get is regimented drones slaving for the upper echelon who all have sticks up their asses and who use being at the top of the guild pyramid to justify getting all the major goodies.  The peasants get nothing unless they do a LOT of ingratiating and ass-kissing. As I say, screw that. 

    I don't want to do a trader's guild either, because I tried one about 6 or 7 years ago and that just ends up the same - only the upper echelon get a decent share of the profits and the lower echelons are yet again just resource gatherers who have to meet quotas.  It's just a Ponzi scheme in drag... "keep it up guys and one day you, too, will make big bucks".  Screw that too.
    AlBQuirkyUngoodNeanderthal
  • XatshXatsh Member RarePosts: 437
    Dibdabs said:
    To me, a Guild should just be an informal bunch of players who you can call on to watch each other's backs if need be, lend a hand for a few minutes with a tricky mob and to have a dependable pool of people who might just fancy an impromptu dungeon run.  In EQ that's what the guild I was in was like.  Then they got delusions of grandeur and tried to become a "proper" guild and it all went to ratshit. 

    These days, all you get is regimented drones slaving for the upper echelon who all have sticks up their asses and who use being at the top of the guild pyramid to justify getting all the major goodies.  The peasants get nothing unless they do a LOT of ingratiating and ass-kissing. As I say, screw that. 

    I don't want to do a trader's guild either, because I tried one about 6 or 7 years ago and that just ends up the same - only the upper echelon get a decent share of the profits and the lower echelons are yet again just resource gatherers who have to meet quotas.  It's just a Ponzi scheme in drag... "keep it up guys and one day you, too, will make big bucks".  Screw that too.

    I will say this. Any guild where the leaders proritize themselves and close friends/officers over members is a trash guild with failed leadership and all the members should jump ship fast because the leadership does not care about progressing the guild they only care about themselves. This kind of guild is almost 100% guaranteed to fail in a fairly short amount of time.

    Any top tier guilds should have a loot policy in effect where no one has loot prority over everyone permanently.  no one no matter rank, length of time in the guild, or who they are friends with.

    Now with that said a Newbie who just joined should absolutely not be able to lot top tier loot against someone who has been in the guild for months attending 30hrs of guild events a week. After they are in the guild for a period of time and put in the work they should be able to match that veterans looting rights.

    Now I do not know you so this statement might be wrong. But you earlier post where you mentioned you do not like being told to attend guild events. This might be why your guilds looked like they were giving to "Friends" over you. If you did not attend events in my guild or only came to stuff that rewarded yourself you would of been near dead last on the lot tier if not on the chopping block.

    What you want in a guild I would classify as a social casual guild. And there is nothing wrong with that. You have the endgame guilds (Hardcore guilds), Midcore specifc event focused guilds, and social casual guilds which are typically laid back with very limited rules and expectations.

    The problem is today in my opinion is too many games are forcing the "Casual Only guilds" due to no actual guild content. FFXIV for example.

    The ability to come together and utalize the strength of the community to lift everyone up to a level not possible by yourself is what makes guilds something great and what builds life long bonds between players. Guilds are all about the shared sacrifice, struggles, and success. You do not have that in a social casual guild where members basically treat it as a chat channel and nothing more. So for me I am the polar opposite of you in terms of what I look for in a guild.
    XodicUngoodAlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,704
    edited March 31
    Dibdabs said:
    To me, a Guild should just be an informal bunch of players who you can call on to watch each other's backs if need be, lend a hand for a few minutes with a tricky mob and to have a dependable pool of people who might just fancy an impromptu dungeon run.  In EQ that's what the guild I was in was like.  Then they got delusions of grandeur and tried to become a "proper" guild and it all went to ratshit. 

    These days, all you get is regimented drones slaving for the upper echelon who all have sticks up their asses and who use being at the top of the guild pyramid to justify getting all the major goodies.  The peasants get nothing unless they do a LOT of ingratiating and ass-kissing. As I say, screw that. 

    I don't want to do a trader's guild either, because I tried one about 6 or 7 years ago and that just ends up the same - only the upper echelon get a decent share of the profits and the lower echelons are yet again just resource gatherers who have to meet quotas.  It's just a Ponzi scheme in drag... "keep it up guys and one day you, too, will make big bucks".  Screw that too.

    I like the "ideal" of guilds, as you do: Players that have a common interest and playstyle just hanging out when their online. Players who can all and be called for help when needed.

    Unfortunately, this has been my impression of most guilds I've seen functioning: Egomaniacs who enjoy power. Not ALL guilds, but too many for my taste. The first guild I joined in EQ fit that to a "T" and soured me on guilds. I have been in 2 guilds since then (1 in EQ and 1 in WoW) that were actually fun for me :)

    One thing I can do without for guilds is Guild Drama!!! :lol:

    PS: I wanted to add that the guild I had the most fun was "Ninja Kitties" i WoW. We were an all Druid guild. Cataclysm killed us because they gave guild points/levels/scores based on diversity. We couldn't keep up. We did end up making a "brother guild" that was all inclusive, except Druids :)

    Nothing like Seeing a "herd of cats" romping about Azeroth :)

    UngoodDibdabs

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Xodic said:
    Dibdabs said:
    I really don't like guilds, and haven't since I left EQ.  They're too much like a combination of a chore and a job.  "Do this, do that, tonight we're going to do X at 8pm and everyone should attend, don't forget to deposit resources and items in guild bank..."  Screw that.


    How could guild design be improved to better accommodate people such as yourself, who don't actually want to be involved in an in-game community due to the way they currently work? 

    What if you had an option of joining something like a trader's guild, where your share in profits through crafting and gathering are based on your participation, or some other structure that would relieve the feeling of needing to do chores when you don't want to do them, and being rewarded and feeling like you're contributing when you do?

    A lot of game rules could be changed to alleviate the strict event times that guilds have. The reason guilds are compelled to do an event at a certain time and require participation is because there's a lockout for that event, and it can only be accomplished once a week. What if raids and the like were tied to resources in such a way that it would take roughly a week to gather the required resources, but those resources can be banked to allow an event to be done back to back, at any time, over the course of any amount of days?
    This is one of the things that could happen if other social networks were built into the game.

    You could have:
    A Clan - Family Unit. this is your tight knit friends, they may have nothing else in common, but they like each other and support each other. Typically this would be a small group, as there is no direct hierarchy, no way to throw anyone out (Unless they married into the Clan, then they can be Divorced Out), and it's all about building that bond with people that have your back.

    A Guild: Group of People with a Common Goal or Ideal.

    IE: Armor Smiths Guild. Like the Real World, The higher the guild level, the more access they have to better crafting utilities. This means, as far as the Armor Smiths guild might go, better forges, better merchants, overall guild boons, trainers, guild patterns, and just more and better advantages that being a higher the level guild would provide, and thus, the more active they are, the overall better quality Armor they will put out. Their Crafters, when they hit a specific level (set by the guild) can apply a guild mark to their gear and put their items on the Guild's Auction House, (Basically when a Crafting Guild gets high enough, they have a section on the Auction house where you can search just for their products, because of their fame level or some such)

    There could also be a "Raiders Guild" where the guild has access to ways to train for raids, without needing to do the raid, like a Startrek Holodeck or some such. Better access to Raid Specific Merchants, Items, gear, DPS meters, Build/Template sharing in the guild itself, etc, etc, the ability to chrat and track your gear progress to be raid ready, as well as the generic rewards and displays of all the raids they have beat, bragging rights and what have you. Basically, when it comes to Raids, that is what this guild is all about, the higher the guild, the more they have to offer for those who want to raid.

    So guilds would be focused on something, not just social chat channel and what have you.

    Also Guilds would have tiers of Seniority, where the longer a player has been in a guild, the less chance to remove them, this is a system that would need to be worked out, but much like a Union, it's not easy to just kick someone out.

    a Tribe/Gang/Team/Organization: This is your basic Social Group, this is your generic 'Guild" of old times, they have their own Hall/Housing, where they can gather, hang out, chat, put things on display, and what have you.  Just a Social thing. Come and Go as you please, has the typical hierarchy where you can be removed the leader/officers, etc.

    Corporation: This is a competitive group, that gives boons based on how high the Corp is, the CEO/Leader & Board denote what boons their Corp will give, this can include things like base Character Attribute Boons, Skill Advantages, IE: Guild Buffs. This can also take the form of access to placed Teleporters, for like Fast Travel (Imagine that your guild could place their own waypoints), and all the competitive aspects of what a corp is about, to offer good boons to get the best players to keep growing their corp. Obviously a Guild Level Treadmill, which no doubt some players would love the hell out of. The best performers lead the corp, so the CEO/Board is made up the top 11 most active members of the Corp, regardless of who started it. No one can be removed from the Corp, unless it's voted on by the CEO&Board. The CEO&Board cannot be removed by vote. Only by inaction, and dropping out of their positions.

    and a player can be a part of all of them.

    They can have their Clan, their Gang, their Guild and their Corp that they belong to. Each separate from each other.
    XodicAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,323
    I like the idea. I know some games have made it to where you can join multiple guilds, but it really is nothing more than joining multiple chat channels. Game play oriented guilds sound incredible. I guess the question is, why do we have the same guild structures of 1999? 

    I would argue that it's imperative, especially for a subscription based game to get players connected as soon as possible. The more they're involved, the more likely they are to stick around. A player with no connection to community will blow through what ever content they can solo, and then quit. So why are developers more interested in turning out temporary content every year rather than features that promote player interaction to last the entire life of the game?

    There has to be a reason. I don't accept that they just didn't think about it.
    AlBQuirkyDibdabs
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Xodic said:
    I like the idea. I know some games have made it to where you can join multiple guilds, but it really is nothing more than joining multiple chat channels. Game play oriented guilds sound incredible. I guess the question is, why do we have the same guild structures of 1999? 

    I would argue that it's imperative, especially for a subscription based game to get players connected as soon as possible. The more they're involved, the more likely they are to stick around. A player with no connection to community will blow through what ever content they can solo, and then quit. So why are developers more interested in turning out temporary content every year rather than features that promote player interaction to last the entire life of the game?

    There has to be a reason. I don't accept that they just didn't think about it.
    For the same reason why so many games feel like clones, no one set a new standard, no one mixed things up, no one tried new ideas, and let the same stale recipe become the norm, and that simply does not work for games like an MMO.

    No one needs to reinvent the wheel, but, lets be honest, the Guild System was not that great when it was first started, even back in EQ, the In-game aspect of the guild was nothing but a chat channel, and all the real "life" of the guild happened on the guilds Website, forums, and other connection means, as such, games just never felt the need to step up to plate and do better, when it was handled all by 3rd party social media anyway.

    and no doubt.. 20 years later.. by NOT stepping up, that has kicked them in the balls, as Guilds no longer serve the same purpose of being the glue to the game that they were in EQ.
    AlBQuirkyXodiciixviiiix
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,190
    I haven't played a MMO in the past 10 years where I really felt I even needed a guild.
    AlBQuirky
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,677
    As guilds increasingly became a matter of want rather than need how much they are truly desired became more evident. Not much, it seems, when a matter of choice.
    AlBQuirky
  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,850
    Dibdabs said:
    To me, a Guild should just be an informal bunch of players who you can call on to watch each other's backs if need be, lend a hand for a few minutes with a tricky mob and to have a dependable pool of people who might just fancy an impromptu dungeon run.  In EQ that's what the guild I was in was like.  Then they got delusions of grandeur and tried to become a "proper" guild and it all went to ratshit. 



    You're giving me flashbacks.  That sounds a lot like my early EQ days.  The first guild I was in was just a friendly bunch of people having fun and helping each other.  Unfortunately, after a while there was pressure from some members to get into the endgame raiding and it destroyed the guild.  

    Later, when I played project 99 in it's early days I went through almost the exact same thing again.  I was in a friendly guild with some people I really liked but, again, there was pressure to start raiding.  We didn't have enough high level people to do it ourselves so the decision was made to merge with another guild.  In the process all the people I liked best not only didn't make the transition to the other guild, they quit playing entirely.  Shortly after that I myself stopped playing regularly and eventually quit for good.

    So here's the thing for me; I mostly hate guilds because the design of MMORPGs tends to work against the type of guilds which are actually enjoyable to be in.

    Design a game so that friendly guilds are not disadvantaged and I would start liking the idea of being in a guild a lot more.
    AlBQuirky
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,206
    @cameltosis You hit the nail on the head.  The drive towards self-sufficiency and solo gameplay has neutered Guilds.  Back in DAoC I joined a guild that had existed from early UO.  The dynamics of DAoC forced us to work together to achieve common goals.

    I am still with the core of that group all this time later.  Sometimes we add a few new folks but games just do not foster that need for others.  Today folks would rather just click on a dungeon finder and run through an instance without even saying a word.  Likely annoyed that they can't solo the dungeon.


    AlBQuirky

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,876
    Guilds are a social answer to that old MMORPG question, "what happened to the community". I see posters saying why they don't like guilds, almost always this is because they went into a guild that was not for them. Think about your play style, do your research, you will find other players out there who play like you and guess what, they formed a guild!

    I have often talked before about the importance of guilds to MMO's, but rather than bang on again I will  just say if you have not tried a guild give it a go, you might be suprised at how good they can be.
    UngoodAlBQuirky

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Scot said:
    Guilds are a social answer to that old MMORPG question, "what happened to the community". I see posters saying why they don't like guilds, almost always this is because they went into a guild that was not for them. Think about your play style, do your research, you will find other players out there who play like you and guess what, they formed a guild!

    I have often talked before about the importance of guilds to MMO's, but rather than bang on again I will  just say if you have not tried a guild give it a go, you might be suprised at how good they can be.
    The main problem is, that most games don't give guilds a purpose to exist. Why this guild? What is this guild about? What is it's purpose?

    As you have read.. I was in a chillax guild, we were all happy, some wanted to raid, and the guild fell apart, either because the people that wanted to raid left, and others felt like the guild was dead end, or some such, and things happen.

    This is a problem, because the guild does not have focus. What is this guild about and for?

    This is why I think MMO's needed to make various Social Constructs that can simultaneously exist.

    IE:  One for just that tight knit group of people, often the people you know in real life, or have transcended games with, that is your little static. Akin to a Family, Clan or Unit. And these people should be able to have their own little construct that allows them to exist within other social constructs.

    Another for that larger group of just linked minded people that want to hang, ergo finding your tribe. People that you enjoy being with, but these are not your close clique, these are not your family, they are just your like minded people. Now this could just be people you would want to sit down and drink beer with, a social group as it were.

    Then of course, there should be groups that have goals. Teams or Organizations that want to be the best at something specific, be that raiding, crafting, WvW, or even something like "The Rangers Guild" where the goal of the whole guild is to be the best rangers in the game, but the group has that focus, a direct reason and gold they will work towards, and we we see that in some guilds, that they have a direct focus, (Mainly PvP and Raiding guild) and either you step up to that focus, or you find some other guild to be with. Some call this elitist, but, when it comes to things like MMO's, these organizations that have a focus, are imperative, they put in that Competitive Identity feeling to the game, and give people that feeling of being part of a team that they are playing ball for, as opposed to maybe a chillax group of people sitting on the couch eating pizza with, or just some tag that will invite anyone is looking for bodies to fill slots or some such.

    The major thing here, is that MMO developers could do things like this.. they could make these social constructs and build them into their game world, to build that community that keeps a game alive..

    But they don't.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 256
    I would much prefer npc guilds you could join to find likeminded players rather than player guilds. Chopping the head off that undead structure wont hurt it at all.  
    MendelAlBQuirky
    Bring back the game design forum you had way back in the day!
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