Warhammer and me

Gorwe

Please bear with me, this is a bit personal and I literally don't know where to write this(and I need to).

Right, on we go. Warhammer has been around me for my entire life. I always found it cool and the games themselves were always fun and it contains some of my favorite games(Mordheim, BFG: Armada, Vermintide) and a bunch of other ones which are enjoyable enough(Total Warhammer, Dawn of War, Dark Omen etc). It is nice, interesting and cool, but!

I like more what it could be or my own version of Warhammer(which is notably less absurd and dark) than the actual Warhammer! I like the inner workings of the Imperium etc, but must everything be soulcrushing(no, there are even books supporting that, but that don't sell shit)? Must every hard won victory be followed by 10 memey defeats? What's up with all the gore and stuff? I like a lot about it, but I HATE the general TONE of it. Like it's all directed at emo 15 year olds, come on, that's just such a waste of potential!

Basically, did you ever want to "break up" with an IP that is a large part of your life? Or how did you manage to go about it? I still quite like those games(and am looking forward to the Hired Gun), but...come on! Atm, I feel like I outgrew Warhammer lore and like I can literally do whatever I want with it(including silly stuff like NobleBright 40k). The lore is garbage anyhow(imo).

What do you think?

(edit: fuck all the skulls!)

AugustusG

I started role playing games playing warhamer 30 years ago on pen and paper long before the video games. The lore goes far deeper in the pen and paper rpg than the videogames. I love warhamer too, big fan of bloodbowl for exemple I played on skyjunkies befor the officials videogames where made and a little on table top before that. The target is 15 years olds and why not? They need to have some good games to. ^^

Gorwe

Rhoklaw said:

The entire Star Wars community has been dealing with.. oh never mind. Let's just say everything is being rewritten for a different audience and I mean everything.

I mean, the entire edgy apathy thing with skulls and spikes and DEATH just doesn't work on me. Never did. I would like if that were rewritten. But meh. And I like things with Roboutte etc, but they like going to their grimderp cave I guess. /puke

AugustusG said:

I started role playing games playing warhamer 30 years ago on pen and paper long before the video games. The lore goes far deeper in the pen and paper rpg than the videogames. I love warhamer too, big fan of bloodbowl for exemple I played on skyjunkies befor the officials videogames where made and a little on table top before that. The target is 15 years olds and why not? They need to have some good games to. ^^

But I'm not an edgy teenager. I was always weird and eccentric, but never "edge"(was always closer to Data than to the kind of people that get turned on by this). They have a nice structure, nice games, cool art, but...it's all based around conflict and edge and that's simply exhausting. For me at least.

It's basically "here's a thing you don't really like (anymore), but it's been so long with you that you can't cut it out". Fascinating.

Scot

Gorwe said:

Rhoklaw said:

The entire Star Wars community has been dealing with.. oh never mind. Let's just say everything is being rewritten for a different audience and I mean everything.

I mean, the entire edgy apathy thing with skulls and spikes and DEATH just doesn't work on me. Never did. I would like if that were rewritten. But meh. And I like things with Roboutte etc, but they like going to their grimderp cave I guess. /puke

AugustusG said:

I started role playing games playing warhamer 30 years ago on pen and paper long before the video games. The lore goes far deeper in the pen and paper rpg than the videogames. I love warhamer too, big fan of bloodbowl for exemple I played on skyjunkies befor the officials videogames where made and a little on table top before that. The target is 15 years olds and why not? They need to have some good games to. ^^

But I'm not an edgy teenager. I was always weird and eccentric, but never "edge"(was always closer to Data than to the kind of people that get turned on by this). They have a nice structure, nice games, cool art, but...it's all based around conflict and edge and that's simply exhausting. For me at least.

It's basically "here's a thing you don't really like (anymore), but it's been so long with you that you can't cut it out". Fascinating.

I used the idea in WH 40k that the skulls were in honour of the emperor who still serves the empire even when caught between death and life. Also (and this you could use in WH Fantasy) you could use the idea that they are like memeto mori but for the armed forces showing that duty may require the greatest of sacrifices.

You need to need able to make something up for tricky players in table top who ask questions like you do.

Gorwe

Scot said:

Gorwe said:

Rhoklaw said:

The entire Star Wars community has been dealing with.. oh never mind. Let's just say everything is being rewritten for a different audience and I mean everything.

I mean, the entire edgy apathy thing with skulls and spikes and DEATH just doesn't work on me. Never did. I would like if that were rewritten. But meh. And I like things with Roboutte etc, but they like going to their grimderp cave I guess. /puke

AugustusG said:

I started role playing games playing warhamer 30 years ago on pen and paper long before the video games. The lore goes far deeper in the pen and paper rpg than the videogames. I love warhamer too, big fan of bloodbowl for exemple I played on skyjunkies befor the officials videogames where made and a little on table top before that. The target is 15 years olds and why not? They need to have some good games to. ^^

But I'm not an edgy teenager. I was always weird and eccentric, but never "edge"(was always closer to Data than to the kind of people that get turned on by this). They have a nice structure, nice games, cool art, but...it's all based around conflict and edge and that's simply exhausting. For me at least.

It's basically "here's a thing you don't really like (anymore), but it's been so long with you that you can't cut it out". Fascinating.

I used the idea in WH 40k that the skulls were in honour of the emperor who still serves the empire even when caught between death and life. Also (and this you could use in WH Fantasy) you could use the idea that they are like memeto mori but for the armed forces showing that duty may require the greatest of sacrifices.

You need to need able to make something up for tricky players in table top who ask questions like you do.

In Fantasy it's easy to explain(Morr, Ereth Khial etc), it's actually much harder in 40k. But that's just the tip of the iceberg(as is obvious), I just ... outgrew Warhammer mentality, but it would seem I don't want to let the past go. A bounty of fun games don't exactly help, but I really don't care about that edginess. Never did, but now's enough. It's dumb and hormone fueled, both things I try to avoid. Being mindless.

Has any of you ever experienced such a thing?

Po_gg

Rhoklaw nailed it, basically every longer-time present IPs felt that.

Original trilogy fans at the menacing phantom, then both groups together at the awakening force...

TOS trekkies at TNG, heck, all trekkies at the "we want to please a new audience" relaunch with J.J. "lens flare" Abrams.

For the topic of WH itself, can't say I've felt it, but it's because I wasn't too much involved in it the first place.

40k games never really interested me, I can only recall Rites of War and Chaos Gate, and those two aren't for being 40k either, but their "original" games/genre which I loved at the time (X-Com and Panzer General type of strategy games).

On tables I was even less involved, the cost of minis and the time investment were the key factors of it.

I've had more fun with the regular setting, both pen'n'paper and on PC. Fantasy was a fun system, and Blood Bowl needed much less investment than 40k, was easier to set up plays too.

Blood Bowl on the PC was fun as well (the old SSI one, not the modern real-time version).

Gorwe

Po_gg said:

Rhoklaw nailed it, basically every longer-time present IPs felt that.

Original trilogy fans at the menacing phantom, then both groups together at the awakening force...

TOS trekkies at TNG, heck, all trekkies at the "we want to please a new audience" relaunch with J.J. "lens flare" Abrams.

For the topic of WH itself, can't say I've felt it, but it's because I wasn't too much involved in it the first place.

40k games never really interested me, I can only recall Rites of War and Chaos Gate, and those two aren't for being 40k either, but their "original" games/genre which I loved at the time (X-Com and Panzer General type of strategy games).

On tables I was even less involved, the cost of minis and the time investment were the key factors of it.

I've had more fun with the regular setting, both pen'n'paper and on PC. Fantasy was a fun system, and Blood Bowl needed much less investment than 40k, was easier to set up plays too.

Blood Bowl on the PC was fun as well (the old SSI one, not the modern real-time version).

As I said, it's not about the new age, it's about the underlying essence of a thing. I quite like that they dared to move the plot, to do something and I'm quite positive towards the changes. I'm just tired of how 2D(at best) it all is, juvenile and simple / direct.

But yeah, most of nuTrek / Disney Wars suck. Warhammer is an outlier here, where most of things stagnate(or devolve), it evolves and moves forward. Also, where I hate the changes to Trek / Wars, I love the essence. It's the other way around for Warhammer and I'm not certain that's a healthy thing.

Fun games, nice art and pretty satisfying structure, that's all for me from Warhammer.

Scot

Gorwe said:

Po_gg said:

Rhoklaw nailed it, basically every longer-time present IPs felt that.

Original trilogy fans at the menacing phantom, then both groups together at the awakening force...

TOS trekkies at TNG, heck, all trekkies at the "we want to please a new audience" relaunch with J.J. "lens flare" Abrams.

For the topic of WH itself, can't say I've felt it, but it's because I wasn't too much involved in it the first place.

40k games never really interested me, I can only recall Rites of War and Chaos Gate, and those two aren't for being 40k either, but their "original" games/genre which I loved at the time (X-Com and Panzer General type of strategy games).

On tables I was even less involved, the cost of minis and the time investment were the key factors of it.

I've had more fun with the regular setting, both pen'n'paper and on PC. Fantasy was a fun system, and Blood Bowl needed much less investment than 40k, was easier to set up plays too.

Blood Bowl on the PC was fun as well (the old SSI one, not the modern real-time version).

As I said, it's not about the new age, it's about the underlying essence of a thing. I quite like that they dared to move the plot, to do something and I'm quite positive towards the changes. I'm just tired of how 2D(at best) it all is, juvenile and simple / direct.

But yeah, most of nuTrek / Disney Wars suck. Warhammer is an outlier here, where most of things stagnate(or devolve), it evolves and moves forward. Also, where I hate the changes to Trek / Wars, I love the essence. It's the other way around for Warhammer and I'm not certain that's a healthy thing.

Fun games, nice art and pretty satisfying structure, that's all for me from Warhammer.

Have you read any of the books, Dan Abnett is good? I find the lore consistent and very different, which is what we need in gaming and other media. Look at how many medieval DnD like settings there are, for SF how many Dystopian near future settings there are.

cameltosis

I'm a long term "fan" of the various Games Workshop IPs, but they have all been very inconsistent over the years so it's understandable your feelings would change.

Part of that is just the natural way humans work. If the IPs never changed, then you'd get bored of it. When they do change, then it's changing into something different from what you originally enjoyed, so chances are your enjoyment would lessen too. Its very rare that an IP evolves into something you still enjoy, or enjoy more than before.

My suggestion is just engage with the IP in whatever way still makes you happy. I long ago gave up on the table top games, simply too expensive and time consuming compared to other board games, not to mention other forms of entertainment. I don't bother reading the books either, whilst there is some great lore to be found, the books just aren't that good.

But, I still paint the miniatures on occasion as I still love the aesthetics and I find the painting to be relaxing!  I still play some of the games, just skip the ones that don't appeal. (I really dislike skaven and human-focused GW games, so that means skipping a lot of the recent ones).

Gorwe

Scot said:

Gorwe said:

Po_gg said:

Rhoklaw nailed it, basically every longer-time present IPs felt that.

Original trilogy fans at the menacing phantom, then both groups together at the awakening force...

TOS trekkies at TNG, heck, all trekkies at the "we want to please a new audience" relaunch with J.J. "lens flare" Abrams.

For the topic of WH itself, can't say I've felt it, but it's because I wasn't too much involved in it the first place.

40k games never really interested me, I can only recall Rites of War and Chaos Gate, and those two aren't for being 40k either, but their "original" games/genre which I loved at the time (X-Com and Panzer General type of strategy games).

On tables I was even less involved, the cost of minis and the time investment were the key factors of it.

I've had more fun with the regular setting, both pen'n'paper and on PC. Fantasy was a fun system, and Blood Bowl needed much less investment than 40k, was easier to set up plays too.

Blood Bowl on the PC was fun as well (the old SSI one, not the modern real-time version).

As I said, it's not about the new age, it's about the underlying essence of a thing. I quite like that they dared to move the plot, to do something and I'm quite positive towards the changes. I'm just tired of how 2D(at best) it all is, juvenile and simple / direct.

But yeah, most of nuTrek / Disney Wars suck. Warhammer is an outlier here, where most of things stagnate(or devolve), it evolves and moves forward. Also, where I hate the changes to Trek / Wars, I love the essence. It's the other way around for Warhammer and I'm not certain that's a healthy thing.

Fun games, nice art and pretty satisfying structure, that's all for me from Warhammer.

Have you read any of the books, Dan Abnett is good? I find the lore consistent and very different, which is what we need in gaming and other media. Look at how many medieval DnD like settings there are, for SF how many Dystopian near future settings there are.

While I never was exactly a bibliophile, these books are of such an amazing quality that they soured books to me.

cameltosis said:

I'm a long term "fan" of the various Games Workshop IPs, but they have all been very inconsistent over the years so it's understandable your feelings would change.

Part of that is just the natural way humans work. If the IPs never changed, then you'd get bored of it. When they do change, then it's changing into something different from what you originally enjoyed, so chances are your enjoyment would lessen too. Its very rare that an IP evolves into something you still enjoy, or enjoy more than before.

My suggestion is just engage with the IP in whatever way still makes you happy. I long ago gave up on the table top games, simply too expensive and time consuming compared to other board games, not to mention other forms of entertainment. I don't bother reading the books either, whilst there is some great lore to be found, the books just aren't that good.

But, I still paint the miniatures on occasion as I still love the aesthetics and I find the painting to be relaxing!  I still play some of the games, just skip the ones that don't appeal. (I really dislike skaven and human-focused GW games, so that means skipping a lot of the recent ones).

That much is true. The entire tone is want to change, I simply dislike the overly serious, depressing tone they are known for. And badass, meaningless action doesn't really do it for me in a long term. They have danced quite a lot, this is most visible in Fantasy. Silly historic -> grim historic -> silly heroic fantasy 3x -> grim dark -> Nobledark. 6th did a lot for world and gameplay, but damn that tone! Can fk itself.

And I could like Warhammer even more. Don't really care for minis(would like to try painting them though), garbage books(simply can't care), lore is give and take. Meaning it's mostly about art side and games. If they lessen the hopeless part, I can only like them better. And stagnation is the worst, I'm glad we're through that abysmal period.

I can always ignore the spirit of the lore, can't I? If 4chan managed to write like 8 versions of Warhammer, including NobleBright Warhammer(roflolo)...why couldn't I?

Would like to read more about DreadFleet and Captain Jaego though. Wouldn't mind if Tindalos made such a game, imagine!

Sovrath

Gorwe said:

Please bear with me, this is a bit personal and I literally don't know where to write this(and I need to).

Right, on we go. Warhammer has been around me for my entire life. I always found it cool and the games themselves were always fun and it contains some of my favorite games(Mordheim, BFG: Armada, Vermintide) and a bunch of other ones which are enjoyable enough(Total Warhammer, Dawn of War, Dark Omen etc). It is nice, interesting and cool, but!

I like more what it could be or my own version of Warhammer(which is notably less absurd and dark) than the actual Warhammer! I like the inner workings of the Imperium etc, but must everything be soulcrushing(no, there are even books supporting that, but that don't sell shit)? Must every hard won victory be followed by 10 memey defeats? What's up with all the gore and stuff? I like a lot about it, but I HATE the general TONE of it. Like it's all directed at emo 15 year olds, come on, that's just such a waste of potential!

Basically, did you ever want to "break up" with an IP that is a large part of your life? Or how did you manage to go about it? I still quite like those games(and am looking forward to the Hired Gun), but...come on! Atm, I feel like I outgrew Warhammer lore and like I can literally do whatever I want with it(including silly stuff like NobleBright 40k). The lore is garbage anyhow(imo).

What do you think?

(edit: fuck all the skulls!)

Are you talking about the video games or the role-playing games (table top, dice, etc)

Because if it's the latter then just make up your own rules and change the setting as you'd like.

That's what I did with Dungeons and Dragons. 

I changed things to my liking so that storytelling was more front and center and that the game got less bogged down in too many dice rolls.

Now, if it's the video games then that's their call. I've always thought of warhammer as being silly and dark at the same time.

That's their thing. If you don't like it then of course move on to something else. I get not liking the direction that a game (or book series) takes but that has to do with the creator(s) and what they want to do with their IP.

My thought has always been "If I don't like it I can make my own."

BrotherMaynard

Scot said:

Gorwe said:

Rhoklaw said:

The entire Star Wars community has been dealing with.. oh never mind. Let's just say everything is being rewritten for a different audience and I mean everything.

I mean, the entire edgy apathy thing with skulls and spikes and DEATH just doesn't work on me. Never did. I would like if that were rewritten. But meh. And I like things with Roboutte etc, but they like going to their grimderp cave I guess. /puke

AugustusG said:

I started role playing games playing warhamer 30 years ago on pen and paper long before the video games. The lore goes far deeper in the pen and paper rpg than the videogames. I love warhamer too, big fan of bloodbowl for exemple I played on skyjunkies befor the officials videogames where made and a little on table top before that. The target is 15 years olds and why not? They need to have some good games to. ^^

But I'm not an edgy teenager. I was always weird and eccentric, but never "edge"(was always closer to Data than to the kind of people that get turned on by this). They have a nice structure, nice games, cool art, but...it's all based around conflict and edge and that's simply exhausting. For me at least.

It's basically "here's a thing you don't really like (anymore), but it's been so long with you that you can't cut it out". Fascinating.

I used the idea in WH 40k that the skulls were in honour of the emperor who still serves the empire even when caught between death and life. Also (and this you could use in WH Fantasy) you could use the idea that they are like memeto mori but for the armed forces showing that duty may require the greatest of sacrifices.

You need to need able to make something up for tricky players in table top who ask questions like you do.

The whole WH40k is about over the top setting, where there is no hope, every human life is essentially meaningless in a galaxy of trillions upon trillions of people and threats that devour entire sectors of the Milky Way and threaten the galaxy itself.

Remember the slogan of the whole WH universe? "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war." And with such optimistic setting and since the whole game and lore were intended from the beginning to be as over the top as people could take (and it seems people can take A LOT), you'll get skulls and gore and gruesome deaths everywhere you look.

But if you want to stay more in character while playing a 40k game, perhaps this will help a bit:

• Some space marine chapters identify themselves more closely with death symbols than others. Perhaps yours is one of them.
• All space marines know with certainty that brutal death on a battlefield is their destiny. Wearing skull symbols on their gear means a) they fully accept and embrace this; b) their role in protecting the empire as the perfect killing machines, sowing death left and right.
• They are conditioned for death to be part of their very essence, with the endless litanies and catechisms where 'death' is basically in every single sentence. Google WH40k quotes from 'catechism of hate', for example:
• What is it to be a Space Marine?
  -It is to be death!
  What is it to be death?
  -It is to be the destroyer, the end of all things.
  What is it to end life?
  -It is an honour, to be the executioners of the Emperor. [...]
  

In a nutshell, you have the most OTT fictional universe ever, intentionally set in a hopeless future of mankind, where you lead armies or play as a soldier, and the most brutal death awaits you and your fellow soldiers. If not today, then tomorrow. Skulls and gore in 40k are what grass and trees are to you during your Sunday walk in a park.

Gorwe

Sovrath said:

Gorwe said:

Please bear with me, this is a bit personal and I literally don't know where to write this(and I need to).

Right, on we go. Warhammer has been around me for my entire life. I always found it cool and the games themselves were always fun and it contains some of my favorite games(Mordheim, BFG: Armada, Vermintide) and a bunch of other ones which are enjoyable enough(Total Warhammer, Dawn of War, Dark Omen etc). It is nice, interesting and cool, but!

I like more what it could be or my own version of Warhammer(which is notably less absurd and dark) than the actual Warhammer! I like the inner workings of the Imperium etc, but must everything be soulcrushing(no, there are even books supporting that, but that don't sell shit)? Must every hard won victory be followed by 10 memey defeats? What's up with all the gore and stuff? I like a lot about it, but I HATE the general TONE of it. Like it's all directed at emo 15 year olds, come on, that's just such a waste of potential!

Basically, did you ever want to "break up" with an IP that is a large part of your life? Or how did you manage to go about it? I still quite like those games(and am looking forward to the Hired Gun), but...come on! Atm, I feel like I outgrew Warhammer lore and like I can literally do whatever I want with it(including silly stuff like NobleBright 40k). The lore is garbage anyhow(imo).

What do you think?

(edit: fuck all the skulls!)

Are you talking about the video games or the role-playing games (table top, dice, etc)

Because if it's the latter then just make up your own rules and change the setting as you'd like.

That's what I did with Dungeons and Dragons. 

I changed things to my liking so that storytelling was more front and center and that the game got less bogged down in too many dice rolls.

Now, if it's the video games then that's their call. I've always thought of warhammer as being silly and dark at the same time.

That's their thing. If you don't like it then of course move on to something else. I get not liking the direction that a game (or book series) takes but that has to do with the creator(s) and what they want to do with their IP.

My thought has always been "If I don't like it I can make my own."

Lore in general. I mean, it's silly to me this entire skull fetish. KHORNE Berserkers have less skulls than individuals who should have none. And what they represent.

BFG: Armada had a very interesting campaign. Mostly Nobledark in both of them, I enjoy them all! Armada 1's Campaign and 2's Malos Vrykan are the best imo. I really liked Malos' rise to power, that was very satisfying.

BrotherMaynard said:

Scot said:

Gorwe said:

Rhoklaw said:

The entire Star Wars community has been dealing with.. oh never mind. Let's just say everything is being rewritten for a different audience and I mean everything.

I mean, the entire edgy apathy thing with skulls and spikes and DEATH just doesn't work on me. Never did. I would like if that were rewritten. But meh. And I like things with Roboutte etc, but they like going to their grimderp cave I guess. /puke

AugustusG said:

I started role playing games playing warhamer 30 years ago on pen and paper long before the video games. The lore goes far deeper in the pen and paper rpg than the videogames. I love warhamer too, big fan of bloodbowl for exemple I played on skyjunkies befor the officials videogames where made and a little on table top before that. The target is 15 years olds and why not? They need to have some good games to. ^^

But I'm not an edgy teenager. I was always weird and eccentric, but never "edge"(was always closer to Data than to the kind of people that get turned on by this). They have a nice structure, nice games, cool art, but...it's all based around conflict and edge and that's simply exhausting. For me at least.

It's basically "here's a thing you don't really like (anymore), but it's been so long with you that you can't cut it out". Fascinating.

I used the idea in WH 40k that the skulls were in honour of the emperor who still serves the empire even when caught between death and life. Also (and this you could use in WH Fantasy) you could use the idea that they are like memeto mori but for the armed forces showing that duty may require the greatest of sacrifices.

You need to need able to make something up for tricky players in table top who ask questions like you do.

The whole WH40k is about over the top setting, where there is no hope, every human life is essentially meaningless in a galaxy of trillions upon trillions of people and threats that devour entire sectors of the Milky Way and threaten the galaxy itself.

Remember the slogan of the whole WH universe? "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war." And with such optimistic setting and since the whole game and lore were intended from the beginning to be as over the top as people could take (and it seems people can take A LOT), you'll get skulls and gore and gruesome deaths everywhere you look.

But if you want to stay more in character while playing a 40k game, perhaps this will help a bit:

• Some space marine chapters identify themselves more closely with death symbols than others. Perhaps yours is one of them.
• All space marines know with certainty that brutal death on a battlefield is their destiny. Wearing skull symbols on their gear means a) they fully accept and embrace this; b) their role in protecting the empire as the perfect killing machines, sowing death left and right.
• They are conditioned for death to be part of their very essence, with the endless litanies and catechisms where 'death' is basically in every single sentence. Google WH40k quotes from 'catechism of hate', for example:
• What is it to be a Space Marine?
  -It is to be death!
  What is it to be death?
  -It is to be the destroyer, the end of all things.
  What is it to end life?
  -It is an honour, to be the executioners of the Emperor. [...]
  

In a nutshell, you have the most OTT fictional universe ever, intentionally set in a hopeless future of mankind, where you lead armies or play as a soldier, and the most brutal death awaits you and your fellow soldiers. If not today, then tomorrow. Skulls and gore in 40k are what grass and trees are to you during your Sunday walk in a park.

Thank you, but what you wrote is 5% logic and 95% pure rubbish. Thank you for reminding me of something with those 5%. See, what you wrote I don't see as badass or anything, I see it as simply stupid crap. Klingons they are not, simply some 15y old's skulls, spikes and BADAZZ! Pointless.

BrotherMaynard

Thank you, but what you wrote is 5% logic and 95% pure rubbish. Thank you for reminding me of something with those 5%. See, what you wrote I don't see as badass or anything, I see it as simply stupid crap. Klingons they are not, simply some 15y old's skulls, spikes and BADAZZ! Pointless.

Why would you apply reason to WH40k? It's not 2001: A Space Odyssey, it's a deliberately OTT fantasy set in fictional future. Examining it as a scholarly paper would probably only make sense in creative writing or psychology classes.

You either take it the way the 40k creators and (most) fans do and go with it for harmless fun or it really is not a universe for you...

Sovrath

Gorwe said:

Thank you, but what you wrote is 5% logic and 95% pure rubbish. Thank you for reminding me of something with those 5%. See, what you wrote I don't see as badass or anything, I see it as simply stupid crap. Klingons they are not, simply some 15y old's skulls, spikes and BADAZZ! Pointless.

Keep in mind Gorwe that there are people who think all video games are 15 year old crap.

And that anything that we might like in a video game will be seen as stupid rubbish.

However, we know better and if we keep them in perspective then they can be at best transformative experiences and at worst guilty pleasures.

Ungood

As a fellow lover of the Warhammer 40K Universe (The Grim Dark), I was in fact a bit shocked when I learned that it was originally created as a spoof by GW, to see how dark and gritty they could go, because their player base complained that Warhammer fantasy was too light hearted for a War game.

And if you played things like BloodBowl you would know what I am talking about, on it being a bit campy and silly.

Fun fact, Warcraft was Originally designed to be a Warhammer Fantasy Game, but GW refused to give Blizzard the IP rights, so they make up their own lore and used the same models, LOL, bet GW is Kicking themselves in the ass over that, still to this day.

Anyway, so in response their critics and in true British dry humor, they made 40K to go as dark and brutal as they could go, hence the "In the Grim Darkens of the Future there is Only War"

So this was a bit of shock to me to learn about, but it did seem fitting all things said and done, at how just insanely hostile and dark the world was. They keep revising the lore, and the stories and what have you, because their goal is to sell a product, mainly sell miniatures, so as far as WH40K goes, they keep revising things, and changing things to keep players buying more plastic mini's to keep their profits up, they are after all, a publicly traded company and have been so before gaming went mainstream. So the lore they churn out is not about making sense, it about justifying selling you a 150 dollar box of true scale primarch marines, after you have already bought 12 boxes at 50 dollars a box, of normal marines over the past 5 years to complete your 1200 point army, and everything they do, is designed to move things to that end.

For me, I kinda walked a bit away from the lore, it's more a background thing to me, I would go so far as to say, akin to a humorous space filler, but still love the art, miniatures, and the like, I loved the DoW series, and own them all, hell I even put in 3K hours into Eternal Crusade because I loved the feel of how they set the game up  where I felt like I was playing as a space marine on the battlefield in a table stop game, right down to the getting riddled with bolter fire. To bad the game is dead in the water, and full of cheaters because it's in maintenance mode at this point, and no one at bEhavor cares about it anymore.

But I guess it depends on what you want, I hear they just brought back Squats, can't wait to see a Video game with them in it, that would be epic.

Gorwe

BrotherMaynard said:

Thank you, but what you wrote is 5% logic and 95% pure rubbish. Thank you for reminding me of something with those 5%. See, what you wrote I don't see as badass or anything, I see it as simply stupid crap. Klingons they are not, simply some 15y old's skulls, spikes and BADAZZ! Pointless.

Why would you apply reason to WH40k? It's not 2001: A Space Odyssey, it's a deliberately OTT fantasy set in fictional future. Examining it as a scholarly paper would probably only make sense in creative writing or psychology classes.

You either take it the way the 40k creators and (most) fans do and go with it for harmless fun or it really is not a universe for you...

I don't know why I do that, I just do. Besides, it does have internal reason and ordering, pretty good at that. I could never quite understand "stupid fun".

To answer few other things. If it were a new IP to me, I probably would never even look at it. I don't like faux BADAZZ, just feels hollow to me and the entire setting...doesn't offer anything special to me. But that's about 40k, besides games and such, I already don't care about it that much. Fantasy though? That's a much more nuanced thing. I generally like Dark Fantasy, but Warhammer is just lowborn, too samey same.

Sovrath said:

Gorwe said:

Thank you, but what you wrote is 5% logic and 95% pure rubbish. Thank you for reminding me of something with those 5%. See, what you wrote I don't see as badass or anything, I see it as simply stupid crap. Klingons they are not, simply some 15y old's skulls, spikes and BADAZZ! Pointless.

Keep in mind Gorwe that there are people who think all video games are 15 year old crap.

And that anything that we might like in a video game will be seen as stupid rubbish.

However, we know better and if we keep them in perspective then they can be at best transformative experiences and at worst guilty pleasures.

Indeed, but when you hear Warhammer fanboys, you know...you know. What's this about transformative experiences and guilty pleasures?

Ungood

This is another one I really love.

Gorwe

Ungood said:

As a fellow lover of the Warhammer 40K Universe (The Grim Dark), I was in fact a bit shocked when I learned that it was originally created as a spoof by GW, to see how dark and gritty they could go, because their player base complained that Warhammer fantasy was too light hearted for a War game.

And if you played things like BloodBowl you would know what I am talking about, on it being a bit campy and silly.

Fun fact, Warcraft was Originally designed to be a Warhammer Fantasy Game, but GW refused to give Blizzard the IP rights, so they make up their own lore and used the same models, LOL, bet GW is Kicking themselves in the ass over that, still to this day.

Anyway, so in response their critics and in true British dry humor, they made 40K to go as dark and brutal as they could go, hence the "In the Grim Darkens of the Future there is Only War"

So this was a bit of shock to me to learn about, but it did seem fitting all things said and done, at how just insanely hostile and dark the world was. They keep revising the lore, and the stories and what have you, because their goal is to sell a product, mainly sell miniatures, so as far as WH40K goes, they keep revising things, and changing things to keep players buying more plastic mini's to keep their profits up, they are after all, a publicly traded company and have been so before gaming went mainstream. So the lore they churn out is not about making sense, it about justifying selling you a 150 dollar box of true scale primarch marines, after you have already bought 12 boxes at 50 dollars a box, of normal marines over the past 5 years to complete your 1200 point army, and everything they do, is designed to move things to that end.

For me, I kinda walked a bit away from the lore, it's more a background thing to me, I would go so far as to say, akin to a humorous space filler, but still love the art, miniatures, and the like, I loved the DoW series, and own them all, hell I even put in 3K hours into Eternal Crusade because I loved the feel of how they set the game up  where I felt like I was playing as a space marine on the battlefield in a table stop game, right down to the getting riddled with bolter fire. To bad the game is dead in the water, and full of cheaters because it's in maintenance mode at this point, and no one at bEhavor cares about it anymore.

But I guess it depends on what you want, I hear they just brought back Squats, can't wait to see a Video game with them in it, that would be epic.

They did what? What's going on with GW?

I mean, it's no surprise that I love things like Vermintide, like Armada, like Dawn of War. Point is, would I like them in another IP better?

Be what may. I am not certain I can just cut ties and even if I could, I do not know how. Ignore all those good, fun games? What is this?

And I'd love to paint a Lunar or Hades or what have you. But something tells me I should start slower.

Sovrath

Gorwe said:

Indeed, but when you hear Warhammer fanboys, you know...you know. What's this about transformative experiences and guilty pleasures?

I'm ok with people nerding out over their guilty pleasures.

Gorwe

Ungood said:

This is another one I really love.

What's fascinating to me, why did people accept 40k's grimdark state? Wasn't Fantasy 2nd which was also quite morose(from what I hear) pretty universally panned and rejected? Why does 40k + grimdark work so well together? Could it work better with a different tone?

Gorwe

Sovrath said:

Gorwe said:

Indeed, but when you hear Warhammer fanboys, you know...you know. What's this about transformative experiences and guilty pleasures?

I'm ok with people nerding out over their guilty pleasures.

With what should I replace it, this is too much. I mean, I don't even get the entire military jerking off Warhammer is famous for. Look, I'm a random weirdo who likes Eldar Corsairs, who likes Chaotic Good things in general. While Warhammer's gorging in praising of Lawful Neutral, perhaps even Lawful Evil.

That's not me. Besides, it's just Justin Bieber of IPs, not much to it. I'll always take good, fun games though.

What to do, what to do? Choices, choices!

Sovrath

Gorwe said:

With what should I replace it, this is too much. I mean, I don't even get the entire military jerking off Warhammer is famous for. Look, I'm a random weirdo who likes Eldar Corsairs, who likes Chaotic Good things in general. While Warhammer's gorging in praising of Lawful Neutral, perhaps even Lawful Evil.

That's not me. Besides, it's just Justin Bieber of IPs, not much to it. I'll always take good, fun games though.

What to do, what to do? Choices, choices!

Maybe sit on it for a while. Let it percolate.

Years ago I bought Skryim (many at this point) and I took a week off and drank beer and played Skyrim and just enjoyed myself.

My roommate, a good friend of mine liked watching the game but "he was an adult" and I suspect he felt weird about buying and playing it.

After a long time, he broke down and just bought it. He then said, "You know, I'm tired of what others think, I'm just going to play what I want to play."

You don't know how, over the years, you will change and mellow and maybe just appreciate things for what they are.

To put it in perspective, I've acted and directed some Shakespear plays, I own everything that Oscar Wilde has written and have a shelf full of poetry but "man" do I love Andy Sidaris movies.

They are cheap, not politically correct, and just plain silly fun. If I were to turn on that part of my brain that appreciates the finer things I'd just scoff at them.

But then I wouldn't be enjoying all the model helicopters and boats and pretty vistas of ... um Hawaii.

I'm probably on your side as far as Warhammer Chaotic stuff but as I said in another thread, I'm not a fan of Warhammer so much as a fan of the art design.

Just like I love Metal Album covers in all their angsty teen over the top goodness.

Ungood

Gorwe said:

Ungood said:

This is another one I really love.

What's fascinating to me, why did people accept 40k's grimdark state? Wasn't Fantasy 2nd which was also quite morose(from what I hear) pretty universally panned and rejected? Why does 40k + grimdark work so well together? Could it work better with a different tone?

Fantasy was first, by quite a bit of time IIRC, and was not rejected, it was successful in and of its own right, but had a totally different setup.

Fantasy was designed around large battles and formations, dating to the very popular wargames of that time, while 40K was built around smaller skirmish style table top play.

Very, very, different feels when you played them.

As for why people accept the Grim Dark setting, well the irony is, the players wanted it. GW made 40K just to make a Grim Dark game to placate their players that wanted a more dark and brutal setting.

In fact GW even admitted that they expected it to fail for being too over the top and campy about it, but, to their own surprise, it exploded in success, players loved the insane dark setting, for some reason or another.

I wager a lot of what carried it, was that Comic Books (Like Judge Dredd, Watchmen, Spawn, etc) at that time were also putting out a lot of Dark Noir/Grim Dark kind of settings, as well as movies like Hellraiser also being released when WH40K hit the shelves, so, it just resonated with that generation of gamers at that time, and shot to stardom.

Gorwe

Ungood said:

Gorwe said:

Ungood said:

This is another one I really love.

What's fascinating to me, why did people accept 40k's grimdark state? Wasn't Fantasy 2nd which was also quite morose(from what I hear) pretty universally panned and rejected? Why does 40k + grimdark work so well together? Could it work better with a different tone?

Fantasy was first, by quite a bit of time IIRC, and was not rejected, it was successful in and of its own right, but had a totally different setup.

Fantasy was designed around large battles and formations, dating to the very popular wargames of that time, while 40K was built around smaller skirmish style table top play.

Very, very, different feels when you played them.

As for why people accept the Grim Dark setting, well the irony is, the players wanted it. GW made 40K just to make a Grim Dark game to placate their players that wanted a more dark and brutal setting.

In fact GW even admitted that they expected it to fail for being too over the top and campy about it, but, to their own surprise, it exploded in success, players loved the insane dark setting, for some reason or another.

I wager a lot of what carried it, was that Comic Books (Like Judge Dredd, Watchmen, Spawn, etc) at that time were also putting out a lot of Dark Noir/Grim Dark kind of settings, as well as movies like Hellraiser also being released when WH40K hit the shelves, so, it just resonated with that generation of gamers at that time, and shot to stardom.

Fantasy 2nd Edition is what I meant.

Ungood

I don't recall Fantasy ever being.. dark.