Does Valheim have AI that can be easily exploited?

remsleep

Disclaimer - I am going to link videos here that I am questioning if this is something that is doable - or these are somehow faked/doctored and are not showing real gameplay.

They show tactics - that highlight the weakness of AI mobs - mostly bosses - and I am wondering if this is real.


1st boss - starts at around 6:15



2nd boss solo easy tactic - can jump to 10:30 in the video to show how the boss AI is broken - doesn't know what to do and just takes damage




Bonemass solo - shack in the tree - boss just stands and takes ranged damage - is this real and in game? (around 10:40 mark is the start of fight)


Moder solo fight - same thing, real or not? - starts at around 14:00 mark




Final boss solo - just simple ranged hit and hide mechanics 




So my question is - are these videos real or not?

Is saying that Valheim AI is lacking based on the above videos - without having played the game first wrong - somehow a completely wrong conclusion?

All of the above seem legit real game footage to me - but again I haven't played the game - but looking at this - to me the AI seems pretty bad.

NOTE - I am not saying the "game is bad" - I've played many games that have lacking AI and were still fun, that's not my point - it's strictly about poor AI.

Slapshot1188

This is one of the saddest things I have ever seen on these boards.   

remsleep

Slapshot1188 said:

This is one of the saddest things I have ever seen on these boards.   

If you are talking about the state of Valheim's AI - I 100% agree 



I made this entire thread because you are claiming over and over again how the game doesn't have poor AI - and how the videos I am showing are somehow not real or some shit.

I mean - are these videos not showing the actual state of mob AI in game?

The question is simple - does Valheim have AI that can be easily exploited?

yes or no?

To me the answer is obvious - let the players speak.

reminder - this doesn't mean the game isn't fun or it's bad - just the AI needs work that's all.

SkitzoX

The poor AI and combat are the reasons I personally refunded. 

remsleep

SkitzoX said:

The poor AI and combat are the reasons I personally refunded. 

Ok so this is one confirmation that its actually real.

Thanks.

Not sure why its so hard for some to see what is blatantly obvious.

Iselin

Slapshot1188 said:

This is one of the saddest things I have ever seen on these boards.   

Same thing he did with Cyberpunk 2077.

He's like a broken record after he watches his "let's make fun of..." streams and then obsesses over them..

remsleep

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

This is one of the saddest things I have ever seen on these boards.   

Same thing he did with Cyberpunk 2077.

He's like a broken record after he watches his "let's make fun of..." streams and then obsesses over them..

Cyberpunk 2077 has zero relevance to this discussion - and you are just trying to derail the thread. 

Do you play Valheim? Is the AI easy to exploit as shown in those videos?

Afraid to answer a simple question?

Also I don't think any of the videos I linked make fun of the game- they maybe make fun of the crap ai.

Slapshot1188

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

This is one of the saddest things I have ever seen on these boards.   

Same thing he did with Cyberpunk 2077.

He's like a broken record after he watches his "let's make fun of..." streams and then obsesses over them..

It's sad.

Stizzled

What is hard to understand? Videos showcasing easier/different ways of killing bosses are real. Videos attempting to mislead viewers by using god mode, high level food or high level weapons are not real. The difference is plain to those who've played the game.

However, all of the videos do show that the AI has faults. Though, they aren't any different than most games of its type. Minecraft, Terraria, Rust, 7D2D, Ark and Conan all have AI that is easy to exploit. Yet, all of them are pretty popular.

That doesn't excuse Valheim, of course. The AI could use work, I don't think anyone would say it doesn't. The bosses are, IMO, the worst offender. They aren't has hard as I'd like them to be.

Luckily, it's in early access and they can work on it. But, exploits like these will always exist. They do for every game.

So, why are you so up in arms about this game? Why are you so worried about the state of the AI in an EA title that's been available for 3 weeks? You don't even play EA games, why are you following this one so closely?

What about the other games that I mentioned? Why aren't you repeatedly posting in their forums? Most of them are fully released titles. It wouldn't take you long to find the exact same type of videos for all of them.

Wizardry

Bonemass is a real joke,he moves very slowly and can be kited around large objects.Even if he wasn't  slow and lumbering,it still comes down to a VERY simple design,he throws and utilizes poison and you utilize yorur best armor.
I watched a You Tuber defeat him and was kind of awful to watch because she is not a good player but still managed to defeat the boss.

It is like most games reliant on your gear and not so much on you unless of course you think the ONE skill move you can do is the bow but not like you could miss the giant boss.

Furthermore most everything is just running around on the ground,NOBODY would fight with such stupidity in real.When i play Survival games,i want to be able to build defences,walls,and climb to higher rocks for cover,i want to fight intelligently and not walk right up to Bonemass and play whacka mole.

EVERY single time i watch anything with the game,it turns me right off,nothing is what i would want to play and the Bosses are a joke anyhow.

What is funny is that i bet soon the players defeat the 6 or so Bosses they all quit playing the game because in reality it is boring as sin and offers nothing for longevity.

lahnmir

remsleep said:

SkitzoX said:

The poor AI and combat are the reasons I personally refunded. 

Ok so this is one confirmation that its actually real.

Thanks.

Not sure why its so hard for some to see what is blatantly obvious.

Confirmation bias crits you for 200%

Now back to ignoring/debating the other 100 or so posts telling you otherwise.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Stizzled

Let's take the thread and make it useful.

AI and combat do have problems, the biggest being the almost complete lack of the Z axis for anything other than projectiles. This is exactly what most of those videos are exploiting: the bosses attacks can't hit anything above or below their Z axis.

Damage seems to go out in a flat arc from the vast majority of mobs and players. This is easily seen and felt when fighting something on an incline.

To fix it, AOE damage should go out in a sphere around the character. Melee abilities either need to attack in a cone, or be treated like projectiles and executed in the direction the mob or player is looking and not just on the same Z axis.

This alone would would improve the feel of combat as well as make mobs more dangerous by allowing them to attack things above and below them.

If I had to choose this would be one of the first things I'd like them to fix.

remsleep

Stizzled said:

Let's take the thread and make it useful.

AI and combat do have problems, the biggest being the almost complete lack of the Z axis for anything other than projectiles. This is exactly what most of those videos are exploiting: the bosses attacks can't hit anything above or below their Z axis.

Damage seems to go out in a flat arc from the vast majority of mobs and players. This is easily seen and felt when fighting something on an incline.

To fix it, AOE damage should go out in a sphere around the character. Melee abilities either need to attack in a cone, or be treated like projectiles and executed in the direction the mob or player is looking and not just on the same Z axis.

This alone would would improve the feel of combat as well as make mobs more dangerous by allowing them to attack things above and below them.

If I had to choose this would be one of the first things I'd like them to fix.

Thanks for the awesome feedback and honesty.

Its nice to see someone be real about this here.

Other games you mentioned do have AI exploits - Terraria i have over 1000 hours played and have made many trap type arenas to exploit boss AI - and it was great fun to do so.

Heck - coming up with new arena-designs to handle different bosses has turned into a game in itself - players have come up with some amazing "fight arenas" for different bosses - and end game "raids" - it's probably what kept me playing Terraria for so long. 

Like I said previously bad AI doesn't mean the game isn't fun, it's just one aspect of the game.

2D games like Terraria managed to actually turn AI exploits into a mini-game in itself - so they made into something great - but because they didn't have to deal with Z axis issues - which are the real issue here.

As mentioned also 3D games do have Z axis exploits that are often mitigated in many different ways - the most famous one being bosses "summoning" players to melee range that EQ1 uses - so you litteraly cannot hide in terrain or behind obstacles. I personally hate the summoning mechanics as it removes all tactics from gameplay.

If Valheim gave all bosses summon players to melee power it would ruin the game IMO, when devs get to fixing this issue I hope they don't go that route.

I like your sphere AoE idea to deal with Z axis exploits - they could make it to where boss AoE attacks do massive damage to player built structures, also they could ignore "ground blocks" so if players hide under ground - they would still get hit for full damage.

Another possibility would be if player is out of range of "sphere AoE boss range" - they wouldn't do any damage to boss - would make it hard for range builds, but it would eliminate "snipe from 100% safety" tactics.

This is sorf of a - if boss can't hurt the player - player can't hurt the boss mechanics that some games use to mitigate exploits and cheese tactics.

Spehere AoE would be a good start.

I am looking forward to how devs address and improve the issue, the game is still in development so there is time to work on this.

remsleep

lahnmir said:

remsleep said:

SkitzoX said:

The poor AI and combat are the reasons I personally refunded. 

Ok so this is one confirmation that its actually real.

Thanks.

Not sure why its so hard for some to see what is blatantly obvious.

Confirmation bias crits you for 200%

Now back to ignoring/debating the other 100 or so posts telling you otherwise.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

For some denial of the actual problem is the first step.

Now say it with me - Valheim needs work on boss AI.

It's not that hard, is it?

Scot

I realise the game may not have the best AI or combat that has ever been coded ( ), but maybe once it launches it will get better, so it is not a concern for me until then. But this game seems to have over taken Cyberpunk 2077 as Remsleeps's gaming 'cause for concern'. It is in development, it won't be 100% polished, what is the big deal here?

Sharne

Scot said:

I realise the game may not have the best AI, but maybe once it launches it will get better, so it is not a concern for me until then. But this game seems to have over taken Cyberpunk 2077 as Remsleeps's gaming 'cause for concern'. It is in development, it won't be 100% polished, what is the big deal here?

Exactly, what's the big issue, its in Early Access still after all?

remsleep

Sharne said:

Scot said:

I realise the game may not have the best AI, but maybe once it launches it will get better, so it is not a concern for me until then. But this game seems to have over taken Cyberpunk 2077 as Remsleeps's gaming 'cause for concern'. It is in development, it won't be 100% polished, what is the big deal here?

Exactly, what's the big issue, its in Early Access still after all?

The issue is some refuse to even acknowledge that it's an issue at all - were making it sound like I was making shit up - as if AI issue did not exist at all.

it does, it's a real problem - some folks just don't have the balls to admit it.

As pointed out - they will work on it and hopefully make it a lot better in the future.


But just read comments above that say how it's "confirmation bias" or even refuse to answer a simple question if the game has a problem with bad AI.

heh

remsleep

Scot said:

I realise the game may not have the best AI or combat that has ever been coded ( ), but maybe once it launches it will get better, so it is not a concern for me until then. But this game seems to have over taken Cyberpunk 2077 as Remsleeps's gaming 'cause for concern'. It is in development, it won't be 100% polished, what is the big deal here?

Hardly "cause for concern" - lol - just pointing out one area that needs work. As I've said repeatedly - bad AI is one aspect that just needs more work - and devs will hopefully fix it.

it doesn't mean the whole game is bad - but boss AI in particular needs fixing

I made the thread for a handful of folks who seem to have a huge problem admitting that AI needs work, who were questioning that what I am posting is made up and not real - that is indeed silly.


The big deal is people who refuse to admit something so simple and so clear - you can see Slapshot and the brady bunch jumping on the bandwagon - you can see their faces agreeing with the "it's sad post" -/snicker

Scot

remsleep said:

Scot said:

I realise the game may not have the best AI or combat that has ever been coded ( ), but maybe once it launches it will get better, so it is not a concern for me until then. But this game seems to have over taken Cyberpunk 2077 as Remsleeps's gaming 'cause for concern'. It is in development, it won't be 100% polished, what is the big deal here?

Hardly "cause for concern" - lol - just pointing out one area that needs work. As I've said repeatedly - bad AI is one aspect that just needs more work - and devs will hopefully fix it.

it doesn't mean the whole game is bad - but boss AI in particular needs fixing

I made the thread for a handful of folks who seem to have a huge problem admitting that AI needs work, who were questioning that what I am posting is made up and not real - that is indeed silly.


The big deal is people who refuse to admit something so simple and so clear - you can see Slapshot and the brady bunch jumping on the bandwagon - you can see their faces agreeing with the "it's sad post" -/snicker

I gave you a lol for the "brady bunch", fair enough the AI needs some work and fans can't see that. It is hardly the first time in gaming and the guys developing it seem the sort who will look to really improve and polish before launch. That's good enough for me.

lahnmir

Scot said:

remsleep said:

Scot said:

I realise the game may not have the best AI or combat that has ever been coded ( ), but maybe once it launches it will get better, so it is not a concern for me until then. But this game seems to have over taken Cyberpunk 2077 as Remsleeps's gaming 'cause for concern'. It is in development, it won't be 100% polished, what is the big deal here?

Hardly "cause for concern" - lol - just pointing out one area that needs work. As I've said repeatedly - bad AI is one aspect that just needs more work - and devs will hopefully fix it.

it doesn't mean the whole game is bad - but boss AI in particular needs fixing

I made the thread for a handful of folks who seem to have a huge problem admitting that AI needs work, who were questioning that what I am posting is made up and not real - that is indeed silly.


The big deal is people who refuse to admit something so simple and so clear - you can see Slapshot and the brady bunch jumping on the bandwagon - you can see their faces agreeing with the "it's sad post" -/snicker

I gave you a lol for the "brady bunch", fair enough the AI needs some work and fans can't see that. It is hardly the first time in gaming and the guys developing it seem the sort who will look to really improve and polish before launch. That's good enough for me.

The issue isn’t that Valheim doesn’t have great AI, it is that almost no videogame has great AI. It is an industry “problem” and pointing specifically at Valheim makes no sense. I used quotation marks with problem because most games don’t actually require more advanced AI, Valheim definitely being one of them. Something people would know if they actually played the.... ahh well, you know where that sentence is going.

Along that same line of thought we could also complain about all games not looking as good as Star Citizen or Ctberpunk 2077, or all games not being big enough compared to No Mans Sky etc. etc. It makes zero sense, its an argument for arguments sake and has no actual relevance to the game being discussed. Its also extremely petty and over analyzing.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Sharne

remsleep said:

Sharne said:

Scot said:

I realise the game may not have the best AI, but maybe once it launches it will get better, so it is not a concern for me until then. But this game seems to have over taken Cyberpunk 2077 as Remsleeps's gaming 'cause for concern'. It is in development, it won't be 100% polished, what is the big deal here?

Exactly, what's the big issue, its in Early Access still after all?

The issue is some refuse to even acknowledge that it's an issue at all - were making it sound like I was making shit up - as if AI issue did not exist at all.

it does, it's a real problem - some folks just don't have the balls to admit it.

As pointed out - they will work on it and hopefully make it a lot better in the future.


But just read comments above that say how it's "confirmation bias" or even refuse to answer a simple question if the game has a problem with bad AI.

heh

I guess there are ways and means of communicating, if you post something akin to 'hmm AI is a bit suspect, hope they do some work on it in EA' then you would probably get a far better response than putting it up in every thread about the game and then starting a new thread on the subject.

Scorchien

First it has terrible AI ,some of it exploits itself ..and Yes there are many easy ways to exploit if you wanted to..That being said it is a good game in EA That needs polish, I'll be waiting a few months before jumping in for a better experience

remsleep

Scorchien said:

First it has terrible AI ,some of it exploits itself ..and Yes there are many easy ways to exploit if you wanted to..That being said it is a good game in EA That needs polish, I'll be waiting a few months before jumping in for a better experience

I am in the same boat - waiting on official launch before I play.

By that time expect many things to get fixed more content to get added, I expect just a much better Gme in all aspects - so just a huge win in my book.

I mean can you imagine what another year or more can do this game especially with all the people funding early access (hehe)

GG4LIFE

remsleep said:

Disclaimer - I am going to link videos here that I am questioning if this is something that is doable - or these are somehow faked/doctored and are not showing real gameplay.

They show tactics - that highlight the weakness of AI mobs - mostly bosses - and I am wondering if this is real.


1st boss - starts at around 6:15



2nd boss solo easy tactic - can jump to 10:30 in the video to show how the boss AI is broken - doesn't know what to do and just takes damage




Bonemass solo - shack in the tree - boss just stands and takes ranged damage - is this real and in game? (around 10:40 mark is the start of fight)


Moder solo fight - same thing, real or not? - starts at around 14:00 mark




Final boss solo - just simple ranged hit and hide mechanics 




So my question is - are these videos real or not?

Is saying that Valheim AI is lacking based on the above videos - without having played the game first wrong - somehow a completely wrong conclusion?

All of the above seem legit real game footage to me - but again I haven't played the game - but looking at this - to me the AI seems pretty bad.

NOTE - I am not saying the "game is bad" - I've played many games that have lacking AI and were still fun, that's not my point - it's strictly about poor AI.

LOL! I've never seen a $20 game that is doing really really good melt some dude's brain so fast. Sorry, our fun is driving you crazy! The amount of fun I'm having is super crazy!

remsleep

lahnmir said:

Scot said:

remsleep said:

Scot said:

I realise the game may not have the best AI or combat that has ever been coded ( ), but maybe once it launches it will get better, so it is not a concern for me until then. But this game seems to have over taken Cyberpunk 2077 as Remsleeps's gaming 'cause for concern'. It is in development, it won't be 100% polished, what is the big deal here?

Hardly "cause for concern" - lol - just pointing out one area that needs work. As I've said repeatedly - bad AI is one aspect that just needs more work - and devs will hopefully fix it.

it doesn't mean the whole game is bad - but boss AI in particular needs fixing

I made the thread for a handful of folks who seem to have a huge problem admitting that AI needs work, who were questioning that what I am posting is made up and not real - that is indeed silly.


The big deal is people who refuse to admit something so simple and so clear - you can see Slapshot and the brady bunch jumping on the bandwagon - you can see their faces agreeing with the "it's sad post" -/snicker

I gave you a lol for the "brady bunch", fair enough the AI needs some work and fans can't see that. It is hardly the first time in gaming and the guys developing it seem the sort who will look to really improve and polish before launch. That's good enough for me.

The issue isn’t that Valheim doesn’t have great AI, it is that almost no videogame has great AI. It is an industry “problem” and pointing specifically at Valheim makes no sense. I used quotation marks with problem because most games don’t actually require more advanced AI, Valheim definitely being one of them. Something people would know if they actually played the.... ahh well, you know where that sentence is going.

Along that same line of thought we could also complain about all games not looking as good as Star Citizen or Ctberpunk 2077, or all games not being big enough compared to No Mans Sky etc. etc. It makes zero sense, its an argument for arguments sake and has no actual relevance to the game being discussed. Its also extremely petty and over analyzing.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I agree that most games have bad AI - but videos I linked with boss exploits up top - that is actually worse than your average AI.

Like I said EQ1 - 17+ years ago added bosses summoning to melee range to avoid players cheese tactics. 

Many other games have done ways to deal with what Valheim boss fights lack.

So I am telling you that what these videos show is that Valheim boss AI is worse than your industry standard which is already bad.

It needs fixing badly and I hope it gets fixed soon.

remsleep

GG4LIFE said:

remsleep said:

Disclaimer - I am going to link videos here that I am questioning if this is something that is doable - or these are somehow faked/doctored and are not showing real gameplay.

They show tactics - that highlight the weakness of AI mobs - mostly bosses - and I am wondering if this is real.


1st boss - starts at around 6:15



2nd boss solo easy tactic - can jump to 10:30 in the video to show how the boss AI is broken - doesn't know what to do and just takes damage




Bonemass solo - shack in the tree - boss just stands and takes ranged damage - is this real and in game? (around 10:40 mark is the start of fight)


Moder solo fight - same thing, real or not? - starts at around 14:00 mark




Final boss solo - just simple ranged hit and hide mechanics 




So my question is - are these videos real or not?

Is saying that Valheim AI is lacking based on the above videos - without having played the game first wrong - somehow a completely wrong conclusion?

All of the above seem legit real game footage to me - but again I haven't played the game - but looking at this - to me the AI seems pretty bad.

NOTE - I am not saying the "game is bad" - I've played many games that have lacking AI and were still fun, that's not my point - it's strictly about poor AI.

LOL! I've never seen a $20 game that is doing really really good melt some dude's brain so fast. Sorry, our fun is driving you crazy! The amount of fun I'm having is super crazy!

I am super glad you are having super fun.

The game is not driving me super crazy - just people who won't admit what is obvious to anyone make me chuckle - that boss AI is easily exploited and needs fixing. 

The great news is - the game isn't launched yet so all is well. They have oodles of time to work on this 

High five!

My brain still not melted