Blizzard CEO, Bobby Kotick, is paid 30 Million. ESO, Director, Matt Firor, made 8.5 Million.
So.. Obviously.. 15 a month is more than enough to pay all the bills and give their Dude in Charge a several million dollar paycheck.
Looking at those numbers I would say Bobby is underpaid, considering he overseas a stable of successful games while Matt's just a director in charge of one game?
Reality is, both, Bobby and Matt, are vastly overpaid.
When you consider that, Kim Taek-Jin, the CEO of NcSoft, that owns GW2, as well as Aion, Linage, Linage II, Blade & Soul and a slew of other games, with a vast mobile game presence, is only paid 11 Million.
Which, some might argue is what is wrong with America. But, regardless of your view on that.
If they can pay 1 person that level of stupid amounts of money.. $15 a month is asking too much if you ask me.
That doesn't make any sense.
They are under no obligation to charge less and take away the rate that these people negotiated. They want x person then they are going to have to pay that person what they want.
I can't see many companies saying "let's charge our customers less by lowering our employee salaries."
Sure it does.
If they have the money to spare to pay Bobby 30 Million, they are making more than enough off their 15 a month, and in fact, IMHO, too Much as it were, if they can toss out 30 million so frivolously on one employee.
Remember Jesse Ventura, the wrestler and former governor of Minnesota?
He said something considered downright heretical to those of the capitalist faith: that there should be a maximum wage. The commie, pinko gall!
Interesting idea, though.
It wouldn't work out well. Those that can demand wages over the cap would simply relocate to areas where that artificial limit isn't in place. Such individuals tend to be in high demand and thus fairly mobile.
Those that can't relocate in that manner for whatever reason will simply not bother striving beyond the cap as there is no motive to do so, resulting in the missallocation of those with the potential to do, and thus earn, more.
Price caps, like any other economic constraint, always lead to market inefficiencies, which always lead to issues in the long-term if not short.
Such can be interesting to consider in academics, but in a reality are just plain stupid.
This is blatantly false, like, absolutely false on every level something could be false.
If there was an iota of Truth to this, the Top CEO's nations like Japan, China, India, even England, France, and other places who have shown continual business success on every level, of which, there are a lot of them, would come flocking to America to make damn near 10x what they can make in their own country. They don't, because your dichotomy is blatantly false.
The "C" level is pretty much an exclusive club, you get there more by who you and your family know, who you went to school with and your business and social circles.
Not a lot of cross over yet between cultures and countries, though my employer is gradually breaking this model with more and more Execs being named from India or the far east offices.
Just a matter of time before one of them is named CEO, well assuming the current guy ever let's go of his grip on it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you are just going to talk to your strawman, can you stop quoting me.
Thanks.
but "hey" you are all about the hypocrisy. Or so you say. You see, I suspect that you are all talk and that all you do is complain. Not really a money where your mouth is type person.
That's what I suspect.
So answer Wargoots question. What should a CEO be making. Why do you think they are paid that amount if it's not worth it to the company?
You could answer my question but I don't really think you will because you probably haven't put much thought into it. You'd probably discover a lot of games being made by companies with highly paid executives.
Unless you just do indy and then "good on you."
Show me where I said I was against a Fool and their Money parting, in fact Slapshot was so peeved that I said he was responsible for his own spending that he blocked me and claims I am stalking him.. LOL.
Ungood said: LOL, My issue is with hypocrisy. Where people defend a CEO raking in millions and then cry and complain about how they go about earning that money with predatory systems in MMO's.
If you support the predatory system from top to bottom, then you have my respect of at least having your shit straight.
I had my shit straight for a long time now.
I do seriously wonder why they get paid 30 million if they're not worth it. That isn't a trap, that isn't bait, and I'm not even disagreeing with you.
Why does the company pay them that much, in your opinion?
(Full Disclosure: At one time I was a full on defender of Google, Apple, Amazon and the huge salaries of these companies - especially when going up against the EU, which I saw as simply a band of failing economies using nonsense fines against large American Tech to finance their failed socialist schemes. However, since they pulled the plug on Parler - a service I've never used - I don't care if they tax millionaires at 75% or if they break up those companies and sell them for scrap. The EU can have 'em lock, stock, and barrel.)
Ok.. the issue is not what Bobby is being paid directly, even if such an amount like 30 Million, the issue is that they can pay this ONE employee such vast amounts, and still cry that $15 a month sub is not enough to fully support their game.
That's some bullshit right there.. no lie.
That is where my issues sit.
The truth of the situation, is Obviously if they can dump 30 Million into one Employee they should be making more than enough to fund the game and the people working on it. If they can't, Ideally, they should cut from the top, not the bottom, because, if the CEO is the Super-Star as some have painted them to be, and yet the company can't afford to run things optimally while giving the CEO such an exurbanite paycheck, then.. Obviously the CEO is not worth what they are paying them... That should be a no-brainer.
Now, to answer Sovrath again, if some company was dishing out 30 Million to one employee and then cried they didn't have the funds to take care of the game I was playing, updates, and all that, and that they needed to cut corners, downsize, and basically leave me footing the bill with a pile of excuses... you can bet your ass I would walk away from them, because they they just spiting some lying bullshit at that point, and I will not be insulted like that.
If they can pay someone 30 million, and still keep the game going, rocking on hard with no issues, then I have no issues, they obviously have their shit together.
If they are paying 30 Million to one employee and giving me excuses as to why they have to make delays and there are all kinds of issues, that's a shit show going on right there...No Joke.
Now, I really can't imagine anyone being like.. OMG we need to pay the CEO so many millions because they are super stars, and also deal with a saggy ass game full of bugs because it just makes sense that they can't afforded to hire the staff or put in the time and money to fix it on what little we are paying them.. But.. This topic has shown me.. Such people must exist... :eyes: Well this is has been one of those.. I learned something in this topic.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kyleran said: The "C" level is pretty much an exclusive club, you get there more by who you and your family know, who you went to school with and your business and social circles.
Not a lot of cross over yet between cultures and countries, though my employer is gradually breaking this model with more and more Execs being named from India or the far east offices.
Just a matter of time before one of them is named CEO, well assuming the current guy ever let's go of his grip on it.
Sure, but that still doesn't answer my question.
Why do board members, stock-holders, owners of companies and so forth pay these guys so much?
Surely it isn't "Hey, we went to the same school so I vote to bankrupt this company so you can make 30 million!"
It's because they add value to the company bolster the stock, price, they have a greater understanding of "many things" from the market to where their company is going and should go.
Kyleran said: The "C" level is pretty much an exclusive club, you get there more by who you and your family know, who you went to school with and your business and social circles.
Not a lot of cross over yet between cultures and countries, though my employer is gradually breaking this model with more and more Execs being named from India or the far east offices.
Just a matter of time before one of them is named CEO, well assuming the current guy ever let's go of his grip on it.
Sure, but that still doesn't answer my question.
Why do board members, stock-holders, owners of companies and so forth pay these guys so much?
Surely it isn't "Hey, we went to the same school so I vote to bankrupt this company so you can make 30 million!"
The decisions that a CEO makes can have vast implications on the future of the business. So, board members and stock holders vote to pay such vast sums of money in the hope that they can attract the absolute best person for the job.
It's mostly market forces at work. Other big companies are willing to pay their CEO millions, so if you want to hire a good one yourself, you also need to pay them millions. You don't want to risk getting stuck with a dud because you can only afford the leftovers.
Now, I've also seen studies that show that the vast majority of CEOs in major companies are completely ineffectual - they basically have no impact at all on their business. The reasosn for the company getting better or worse are almost always nothing to do with the CEO. So, in that sense, paying millions is pointless.
However, if you do happen to hire a good one, it makes a world of difference. A good CEO can take an average company and catapult it to success....by whatever metric that company measures success. It's just very, very rare to get a good one.
My personal preference, when it comes to CEO's and pay, is to keep the basic salary low(ish) and go for more performance related bonuses. You just have to be really careful about what metrics you use to measure that performance. If the only metric if profit, that leads to negative business practices.
You don't see me justifying that Bobby needs his 30 Million, while crying about Cash Shops and all the other ways Bobby earns his 30 Million Paycheck.
That's my point.
Get your Shit Straight as well.
You don't get defend Bobby's paycheck and then cry about how he makes it, understand.
I said in my previous post that 30 million for the type of company he runs is not a lot.
Look at sports players that make 100 million or more for 5 year contracts and that is just one salary on a team of dozens.
If you want to judge what gaming CEO's make then it has to be case by case and in the case of Kotick whatever his practices/morals may be has made Blizz and their investors lots of money. He is effective at what he does compare him to the AGS guy or even Firor and the captain of the Blizz ship has his "shit straight" way more than those guys. Amazon has lost over 2 billion with the wrong guy at the top. 30 million would've been a good investment for Amazon if there's another Kotick laying around somewhere...
Also, I rarely see Blizz fans complain about cash shops and even the ones that do buy race changes which is part of the cash shop...
Kano said it best when said "Game developers aren't your friends.." I
will add to that and say that the biggest game development companies are the farthest thing from
grassroots or a San Francisco co-op. Any good feeling we get from using their products/playing games are a direct result of the decisions made by people at the top of the company & CEO. Look at the examples of Trion, Gazillion & even SOE CEO's who screwed things up so bad they had to shut down or sell. Look at Marvel and whoever calls the shots on their games screwing shit up always. I bet Disney would drop 30 million in a second if they found someone who makes better decisions.
Kyleran said: The "C" level is pretty much an exclusive club, you get there more by who you and your family know, who you went to school with and your business and social circles.
Not a lot of cross over yet between cultures and countries, though my employer is gradually breaking this model with more and more Execs being named from India or the far east offices.
Just a matter of time before one of them is named CEO, well assuming the current guy ever let's go of his grip on it.
Sure, but that still doesn't answer my question.
Why do board members, stock-holders, owners of companies and so forth pay these guys so much?
Surely it isn't "Hey, we went to the same school so I vote to bankrupt this company so you can make 30 million!"
LOL.. you would be amazed (in all the worst ways) at how accurate this is.
I mean, to be honest, Stock-holders have damn near zero say in how the company is run, they have their stock holders meeting, where they can vote on things, but that is it.
So basically you are looking at The Board, and the Founder/Owner. Now, as far as this goes, yah, it has a lot to do with who you know.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You don't see me justifying that Bobby needs his 30 Million, while crying about Cash Shops and all the other ways Bobby earns his 30 Million Paycheck.
That's my point.
Get your Shit Straight as well.
You don't get defend Bobby's paycheck and then cry about how he makes it, understand.
I said in my previous post that 30 million for the type of company he runs is not a lot.
Look at sports players that make 100 million or more for 5 year contracts and that is just one salary on a team of dozens.
If you want to judge what gaming CEO's make then it has to be case by case and in the case of Kotick whatever his practices/morals may be has made Blizz and their investors lots of money. He is effective at what he does compare him to the AGS guy or even Firor and the captain of the Blizz ship has his "shit straight" way more than those guys. Amazon has lost over 2 billion with the wrong guy at the top. 30 million would've been a good investment for Amazon if there's another Kotick laying around somewhere...
Also, I rarely see Blizz fans complain about cash shops and even the ones that do buy race changes which is part of the cash shop...
Kano said it best when said "Game developers aren't your friends.." I
will add to that and say that the biggest game development companies are the farthest thing from
grassroots or a San Francisco co-op. Any good feeling we get from using their products/playing games are a direct result of the decisions made by people at the top of the company & CEO. Look at the examples of Trion, Gazillion & even SOE CEO's who screwed things up so bad they had to shut down or sell. Look at Marvel and whoever calls the shots on their games screwing shit up always. I bet Disney would drop 30 million in a second if they found someone who makes better decisions.
Bobby Kotick was the CEO of Activision, and he got his position by buying into the company, when it was forming, he does not design games, make games, or make decisions about games. he brokers deals, that is all he does, in fact he sits on the board of several other major companies like Yahoo, and Coke, and his major claim to fame is that he oversaw the merger of Blizzard and Activision, and that is why he is the king shit. He sits in a cushy office where he broker deals, and thinks up ways to make more porfit, by either gouging his costumers, screwing his employees, or cutting deals with other companies.
So no.. Amazon would not be glad to drop 30 Million to have his help making a game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Can't make up my mind if I'm reading examples of Celebrity Worship or Stockholm Syndrome in this thread disguised as "it is what it is" defeatism.
But one thing is clear: if Bobby Kotick doesn't get $30 mil + per year, the world as we know it will end... Go Bobby!
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
You don't see me justifying that Bobby needs his 30 Million, while crying about Cash Shops and all the other ways Bobby earns his 30 Million Paycheck.
That's my point.
Get your Shit Straight as well.
You don't get defend Bobby's paycheck and then cry about how he makes it, understand.
I said in my previous post that 30 million for the type of company he runs is not a lot.
Look at sports players that make 100 million or more for 5 year contracts and that is just one salary on a team of dozens.
If you want to judge what gaming CEO's make then it has to be case by case and in the case of Kotick whatever his practices/morals may be has made Blizz and their investors lots of money. He is effective at what he does compare him to the AGS guy or even Firor and the captain of the Blizz ship has his "shit straight" way more than those guys. Amazon has lost over 2 billion with the wrong guy at the top. 30 million would've been a good investment for Amazon if there's another Kotick laying around somewhere...
Also, I rarely see Blizz fans complain about cash shops and even the ones that do buy race changes which is part of the cash shop...
Kano said it best when said "Game developers aren't your friends.." I
will add to that and say that the biggest game development companies are the farthest thing from
grassroots or a San Francisco co-op. Any good feeling we get from using their products/playing games are a direct result of the decisions made by people at the top of the company & CEO. Look at the examples of Trion, Gazillion & even SOE CEO's who screwed things up so bad they had to shut down or sell. Look at Marvel and whoever calls the shots on their games screwing shit up always. I bet Disney would drop 30 million in a second if they found someone who makes better decisions.
Bobby Kotick was the CEO of Activision, and he got his position by buying into the company, when it was forming, he does not design games, make games, or make decisions about games. he brokers deals, that is all he does, in fact he sits on the board of several other major companies like Yahoo, and Coke, and his major claim to fame is that he oversaw the merger of Blizzard and Activision, and that is why he is the king shit. He sits in a cushy office where he broker deals, and thinks up ways to make more porfit, by either gouging his costumers, screwing his employees, or cutting deals with other companies.
So no.. Amazon would not be glad to drop 30 Million to have his help making a game.
What's funny is Bobby doesn't even make 1/1000th of what Bezos makes.......Amazon probably has the best cash shop model around....
What's funny is Bobby doesn't even make 1/1000th of what Bezos makes.......Amazon probably has the best cash shop model around....
And Amazon is currently fighting very hard against 6,000 workers in Alabama, many making less than $15/hour, trying to unionize.
Hail Bezos, though. He should earn whatever he wants. Amirite?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
You don't see me justifying that Bobby needs his 30 Million, while crying about Cash Shops and all the other ways Bobby earns his 30 Million Paycheck.
That's my point.
Get your Shit Straight as well.
You don't get defend Bobby's paycheck and then cry about how he makes it, understand.
I said in my previous post that 30 million for the type of company he runs is not a lot.
Look at sports players that make 100 million or more for 5 year contracts and that is just one salary on a team of dozens.
If you want to judge what gaming CEO's make then it has to be case by case and in the case of Kotick whatever his practices/morals may be has made Blizz and their investors lots of money. He is effective at what he does compare him to the AGS guy or even Firor and the captain of the Blizz ship has his "shit straight" way more than those guys. Amazon has lost over 2 billion with the wrong guy at the top. 30 million would've been a good investment for Amazon if there's another Kotick laying around somewhere...
Also, I rarely see Blizz fans complain about cash shops and even the ones that do buy race changes which is part of the cash shop...
Kano said it best when said "Game developers aren't your friends.." I
will add to that and say that the biggest game development companies are the farthest thing from
grassroots or a San Francisco co-op. Any good feeling we get from using their products/playing games are a direct result of the decisions made by people at the top of the company & CEO. Look at the examples of Trion, Gazillion & even SOE CEO's who screwed things up so bad they had to shut down or sell. Look at Marvel and whoever calls the shots on their games screwing shit up always. I bet Disney would drop 30 million in a second if they found someone who makes better decisions.
Bobby Kotick was the CEO of Activision, and he got his position by buying into the company, when it was forming, he does not design games, make games, or make decisions about games. he brokers deals, that is all he does, in fact he sits on the board of several other major companies like Yahoo, and Coke, and his major claim to fame is that he oversaw the merger of Blizzard and Activision, and that is why he is the king shit. He sits in a cushy office where he broker deals, and thinks up ways to make more porfit, by either gouging his costumers, screwing his employees, or cutting deals with other companies.
So no.. Amazon would not be glad to drop 30 Million to have his help making a game.
You seem to be so emotionally invested in this topic that you're no longer able to see that even your own words pretty much validate his 30 mil salary... Compare the profit he makes to Firor and ESO and Kotick's pay is actually low... I don't see Firor selling $60 virtual tickets with some in-game pixel extras to ESOCon?
"He sits in a cushy office where he broker deals, and thinks up ways to
make more porfit, by either gouging his costumers, screwing his
employees, or cutting deals with other companies."
"his major claim to fame is that he oversaw the merger of Blizzard and Activision"
^ that is what legit CEO are supposed to do. Look at AGS who hasn't made any money and spent over 2 billion.. Look at all the dumb decisions Trion CEO made that drove it into the ground allowing Gamigo to buy it for pennies... What exactly do you think CEO are supposed to do? LOSE their company money and not think of new ways to increase profit? They pay the guy 30 million to do exactly what you described. I also wouldn't call much of Blizz's prices except for Hearthstone's $80 packs and maybe race changes "gouging".. Have you seen what some mobile games charge? THAT is "gouging".
Honestly can't believe you have many people here including myself defending Kotick but what you're saying doesn't make much sense outside of a philosophy discussion. Even in communist society there are leaders and they are rewarded more if they do well. It sucks but it's just the way it is. If you don't like it the best you can do is not buy their products which is what I started doing a while ago. You can also try to plea to their board to make you CEO instead as a 'CEO for the people'. I'd be interested to hear how that goes..
Bobby Kotick was the CEO of Activision, and he got his position by buying into the company, when it was forming, he does not design games, make games, or make decisions about games. he brokers deals, that is all he does, in fact he sits on the board of several other major companies like Yahoo, and Coke, and his major claim to fame is that he oversaw the merger of Blizzard and Activision, and that is why he is the king shit. He sits in a cushy office where he broker deals, and thinks up ways to make more porfit, by either gouging his costumers, screwing his employees, or cutting deals with other companies.
So no.. Amazon would not be glad to drop 30 Million to have his help making a game.
You seem to be so emotionally invested in this topic that you're no longer able to see that even your own words pretty much validate his 30 mil salary... Compare the profit he makes to Firor and ESO and Kotick's pay is actually low... I don't see Firor selling $60 virtual tickets with some in-game pixel extras to ESOCon?
"He sits in a cushy office where he broker deals, and thinks up ways to
make more porfit, by either gouging his costumers, screwing his
employees, or cutting deals with other companies."
"his major claim to fame is that he oversaw the merger of Blizzard and Activision"
^ that is what legit CEO are supposed to do. Look at AGS who hasn't made any money and spent over 2 billion.. Look at all the dumb decisions Trion CEO made that drove it into the ground allowing Gamigo to buy it for pennies... What exactly do you think CEO are supposed to do? LOSE their company money and not think of new ways to increase profit? They pay the guy 30 million to do exactly what you described. I also wouldn't call much of Blizz's prices except for Hearthstone's $80 packs and maybe race changes "gouging".. Have you seen what some mobile games charge? THAT is "gouging".
Honestly can't believe you have many people here including myself defending Kotick but what you're saying doesn't make much sense outside of a philosophy discussion. Even in communist society there are leaders and they are rewarded more if they do well. It sucks but it's just the way it is. If you don't like it the best you can do is not buy their products which is what I started doing a while ago. You can also try to plea to their board to make you CEO instead as a 'CEO for the people'. I'd be interested to hear how that goes..
Fine.. but don't cry to me about any predatory practices by these companies if you are going to support the CEO's pulling in those kinds of paychecks.
and those phone games have CEO's too, who need to make their millions, and thus they need to gouge you for every cent they can.. don't like, don't defend it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What's funny is Bobby doesn't even make 1/1000th of what Bezos makes.......Amazon probably has the best cash shop model around....
And Amazon is currently fighting very hard against 6,000 workers in Alabama, many making less than $15/hour, trying to unionize.
Hail Bezos, though. He should earn whatever he wants. Amirite?
Just to clear something up, Bezos only makes 81,000 a year as a set salary, which has not changed in decades, with total compensation and perks from the company (IE: company car, Etc) amounting to a paltry 1.6 million, all his wealth that people gloat about comes from his stock and personal investments.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What I've come to understand is there's nothing I can do with regards to CEO salaries, predatory pricing practices or crooked politicians, best to just stay out of their way and go about living my best life.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What I've come to understand is there's nothing I can do with regards to CEO salaries, predatory pricing practices or crooked politicians, best to just stay out of their way and go about living my best life.
Cheers.
I have to agree with this, however, what annoys me the most, is you see all these gamers cry bloody death at what games do to make money, crying about P2W, Lootboxes, Getcha, and all these other predatory practices, and then they turn around, in the same breath, and have the bare faced audacity to defend these game companies paying their CEO's millions.
Like ,,. do you all realize where they get their money? That's right, from you. So, to pay that one person millions, they need to find ways to get you to part with your money, while at the same time doing the absolute least they can to get it.
Makes me laugh, because I heard someone explain to me once that the biggest problem with Americans, is that regardless of how poor, and low they are on the social ladder, they all think they are a rich person waiting to happen, so they blindly defend this obscene wealth inequity system, dreaming about the day it will happen to them. This is vastly unlike many other nations where the people are not under such delusions, so in these other nations they don't support and abide by such vast wealth disparity. They realize there is a limit, often times they resolve the issue of unfettered greed by increasing taxes to the point that it becomes and issue of diminishing returns to make such ostentatious amounts of money.
In any case, as we can see, there are many here that do support any and all predatory actions of game companies.
It was personally rather enlightening to see how many actually do support the predatory antics. I would have thought there would have been less, given the often typical reactions to monetization happening in games, and that more of them would have come to realize they are facing these predatory monetized systems in games these days due to unabashed greed, not due to actual the cost of production or product. I suppose that was my own naivety in this discussion, as they have all made it rather clear, they have always understood the situation and support it.
In that front.. it is what it is.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It's not applying the McDonald's approach, the reality is, that most workers are expendable. It's not what you want to hear, but it is probably truth. In certain businesses, the people that interact with customers is paramount, but in large corporations it likely doesn't work that way.
The issue with the athletes is that in reality, the athletes are the product. In the NFL, the CEO's are the 32 owners and your product is the 1800+ NFL players. The collective bargaining essentially splits 50% revenue to 32 owners and 50% revenue to the players.
In a company of designers and developers, the product is not them, it is the video game or the tech product. In athletics the weird thing is that the product = athletic employees whereas in most other places, product does not equal employees or in many other cases the employee environment is part of the product.
And also, 99% of your workers is not what makes your product. There are a shit ton of ancillary staff that have nothing to do with your product, they are cleaning, serving the cafeteria, manning the law offices, etc.
On the other hand, i think you are right about business owners saying you have to invest in the best employees. Let's take Bobby Kostik.
His "best employees" probably constitute the majority of developers and project managers and whoever makes the game. They also get paid a shit ton of money probably in the billions from total salary. That is way more than the CEO.
But . .. .CEO is one person who tells that billion dollar cadre what to do. So you invest in the best employees, but since only one person really decides, and you have a billion dollar revenue company. I think it is quite fair to make 30 million. Also, Activision-Blizzard IS investing in their employees, they are investing 30 million in their most important employee out of all the other important employees.
I'm not saying the only thing that matters is the top, I'm saying that given what I've mentioned:
1) Billion dollar revenue company 2) CEO has ability to generate 100's of millions of extra revenue. 3) The world is paying them that much and it is capitalism. So someone thinks they are worth it. 4) You can have the best employees ever but if you have an idiot leading them, it is useless. For example, you can have the best soldiers in the world, but if your general is a moron, you'll be outsmarted on the battle field.
Paying 30 million dollars is completely justified to a CEO of a billion dollar company. Let me put it another way, the leader of a billion dollar company has every right to make tens of millions of dollars. What the average person makes in the US or what the average employee makes is not relevant.
I do understand how on an emotional level it can be frustrating. Jeff Bezos makes billions of dollars and he has employees working their butt off for minimum wage. Yes, i get it, it is tough to swallow, it almost doesn't seem right, like it is morally wrong. But it is just capitalism.
On a personal level, I'm not a money grubbing selfish pig that agrees with big business screwing their employees over. I personally would change the corporate system to put more money back into the regular employees . . . it is easy to do. However, I am okay with capitalism and I believe i understand how the market/system works and thus based on how it works, I think big CEO pay is justified. Treating people like crap, screwing them over, etc is not okay.
Do I know if Bobby Kostik is ethical or not, I don't, but i think his salary is justified and so does the board of directors at blizzard-activision.
On a side note, laying 800 people off is not screwing people over. It is normal business.
If i have franchise of dental offices in the US. I have 800 dental offices. In my dental office, I do regular dentisty stuff and as a side business, I do sterile ear piercings. I have one employee in each store focused solely on ear piercings. Each other store has 19 other employees and dentists and whatever.
My 800 franchised dental offices make 1.25 million in revenue per year = 1 billion in revenue. As owner of the franchised dental offices, I take a salary of 30 million and my total expenses are 700 million. So 30 million is my salary and 270 million is split over all the 800 offices.
Then I look at the numbers and decide that the ear piercing revenue sucks and is actually losing money. I decide to stop the ear piercing business and the 800 stores each lay off their ear piercing employee.
Am I an asshole/evil/a dick for closing the ear piercing. Should someone come up to me and be like, yo bro, that is 800 employees each making 30k per year (24 million per year at 4 million loss). You make 30 million. How could you lay them off when it is 800 employees making 30k each and you make 30 million?.
It would probably be better if I kept them and rebranded them to something that makes money, I think that is the ideal situation, but perhaps there isn't an alternative, so I let them all go. You could also say, why don't i just keep them, it is just costing the company an extra 4 million when you make 1 billion. Truthfully, that is somewhat valid but it isn't just the money with the employees, it is risk of litigation, etc.
Either way, good discussion, I don't think it is evil to pay a CEO tens of millions, nor do I think it is evil to lay off 800 employees even if you are making record profits. Trim the fat in business is the way capitalism works. The CEO is just doing their job.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Since you support Bobby making his 30 million paycheck, that means by default, you support every method he will use to make that money, if Bobby needs to fire 800 employees to justify his Paycheck, you support that, if Bobby needs to push the Cash Shop, Loot Boxes, Gacha, and anything and everything else he can come up with to squeeze every last cent they can from you, you by default, support that, because you believe that Bobby needs his 30 Million paycheck.
Everything else is just a distraction from that single myopic point.
You are so arrogant. Yes the world according to Ungood, there is no other way to see anything except through his lense.
Since you think companies should be told how to spend their money and run their businesses by people who have nothing to do with those businesses I guess you are, by default, a controlling individual who believes that everyone must fall in line and do as you say. by default.
See how that works?
In any case reality and the way you want it to be are two totally different things.
I have said no such thing.
Reality is, I just have my shit straight.
You don't see me justifying that Bobby needs his 30 Million, while crying about Cash Shops and all the other ways Bobby earns his 30 Million Paycheck.
That's my point.
Get your Shit Straight as well.
You don't get defend Bobby's paycheck and then cry about how he makes it, understand.
I think you need to get it straight. In no way did I say he "needs" his 30 million. I did say he has the right to negotiate the compensation that he wants and the company has the righ to say yes, no or "here take this."
And I highly doubt you have ever seen me cry about cash shops. My stance has always been "if you want to spend money go ahead, if you don't want to spend money that's your right. If there is no way to play the game without spending extra money then that's your decision."
So following that, my stance has always been it's the players, companies, CEO's choices and you they can say yes or no.
It's about your choice. Choice to do it or walk away.
Cool, We have an Accord than.
Also, just gonna put this out, I see you complaining about a companies Predatory antics, I will be glad to remind you that Bobby needs his 30 Million Paycheck, and you support that.
He doesn't NEED his 30 million paycheck, but the board of directors at Activision-Blizzard think he deserves it just as I think he deserves it.
Hell, I should dislike Bobby Kostik, he stopped development of starcraft 2 just within this year . . . but alas . . . i don't hate him, the game doesn't develop that much revenue, I get it. I like it, but i'm one of the few people who likes RTS. Why put resources into something that doesn't generate much money.
I am happy for the tradeoff, if I wasn't in such a capitalistic society, I'd be making dick money as a physician like so many other doctors around the world. But in America, I make good money, even though it is complete trash on the doctor totem pole.
Capitalism is a trade off, a lot of times the greed and money grubbing pisses me off but on the hand it feeds me . Pros and cons.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
What I've come to understand is there's nothing I can do with regards to CEO salaries, predatory pricing practices or crooked politicians, best to just stay out of their way and go about living my best life.
Cheers.
I have to agree with this, however, what annoys me the most, is you see all these gamers cry bloody death at what games do to make money, crying about P2W, Lootboxes, Getcha, and all these other predatory practices, and then they turn around, in the same breath, and have the bare faced audacity to defend these game companies paying their CEO's millions.
Like ,,. do you all realize where they get their money? That's right, from you. So, to pay that one person millions, they need to find ways to get you to part with your money, while at the same time doing the absolute least they can to get it.
Makes me laugh, because I heard someone explain to me once that the biggest problem with Americans, is that regardless of how poor, and low they are on the social ladder, they all think they are a rich person waiting to happen, so they blindly defend this obscene wealth inequity system, dreaming about the day it will happen to them. This is vastly unlike many other nations where the people are not under such delusions, so in these other nations they don't support and abide by such vast wealth disparity. They realize there is a limit, often times they resolve the issue of unfettered greed by increasing taxes to the point that it becomes and issue of diminishing returns to make such ostentatious amounts of money.
In any case, as we can see, there are many here that do support any and all predatory actions of game companies.
It was personally rather enlightening to see how many actually do support the predatory antics. I would have thought there would have been less, given the often typical reactions to monetization happening in games, and that more of them would have come to realize they are facing these predatory monetized systems in games these days due to unabashed greed, not due to actual the cost of production or product. I suppose that was my own naivety in this discussion, as they have all made it rather clear, they have always understood the situation and support it.
In that front.. it is what it is.
You are spot on with many of your points but we are already past the point of no return. Pandora's box was opened, the toothpaste was squeezed out of the tube... we landed on Normandy beach and the 50 cal cash shop turrets are raining lead on us. We are the old geezers playing chess in the park complaining about $15 dollar subs while the younger generation drops thousands each month on mobile games without giving it much thought. The greedy game companies tasted that sweet sweet honey and will never ever stop until they drain every last cent from every person they can. No amount of forum crying or boycotting will ever make them change course cause for every person that stops paying there are hundreds who don't give af about it and continue on.
What I've come to understand is there's nothing I can do with regards to CEO salaries, predatory pricing practices or crooked politicians, best to just stay out of their way and go about living my best life.
Cheers.
Yeah, shut the hell up and pay your taxes like a good sheep... err... citizen
C'mon, you've been doing the same for most of your life too, unless you've been willing to risk imprisonment to evade doing so.
Have I bitched about it? Yes. Did I always vote for the people who I thought would tax me less? Usually.
Did I ever take up arms and go marching down the street in a rally? No, but here in the States apparently that's becoming more of a thing, but at my age, I'll have to pass.
The Serenity prayer is appropriate I think.
God, grant me the Serenity To accept the things I cannot change... Courage to change the things I can, And Wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time, Enjoying one moment at a time, Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace. Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is, Not as I would have it. Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will. That I may be reasonably happy in this life, And supremely happy with Him forever in the next. Amen.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Not a lot of cross over yet between cultures and countries, though my employer is gradually breaking this model with more and more Execs being named from India or the far east offices.
Just a matter of time before one of them is named CEO, well assuming the current guy ever let's go of his grip on it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But for the hell of it.
Ok.. the issue is not what Bobby is being paid directly, even if such an amount like 30 Million, the issue is that they can pay this ONE employee such vast amounts, and still cry that $15 a month sub is not enough to fully support their game.
That's some bullshit right there.. no lie.
That is where my issues sit.
The truth of the situation, is Obviously if they can dump 30 Million into one Employee they should be making more than enough to fund the game and the people working on it. If they can't, Ideally, they should cut from the top, not the bottom, because, if the CEO is the Super-Star as some have painted them to be, and yet the company can't afford to run things optimally while giving the CEO such an exurbanite paycheck, then.. Obviously the CEO is not worth what they are paying them... That should be a no-brainer.
Now, to answer Sovrath again, if some company was dishing out 30 Million to one employee and then cried they didn't have the funds to take care of the game I was playing, updates, and all that, and that they needed to cut corners, downsize, and basically leave me footing the bill with a pile of excuses... you can bet your ass I would walk away from them, because they they just spiting some lying bullshit at that point, and I will not be insulted like that.
If they can pay someone 30 million, and still keep the game going, rocking on hard with no issues, then I have no issues, they obviously have their shit together.
If they are paying 30 Million to one employee and giving me excuses as to why they have to make delays and there are all kinds of issues, that's a shit show going on right there...No Joke.
Now, I really can't imagine anyone being like.. OMG we need to pay the CEO so many millions because they are super stars, and also deal with a saggy ass game full of bugs because it just makes sense that they can't afforded to hire the staff or put in the time and money to fix it on what little we are paying them.. But.. This topic has shown me.. Such people must exist... :eyes: Well this is has been one of those.. I learned something in this topic.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I mean, to be honest, Stock-holders have damn near zero say in how the company is run, they have their stock holders meeting, where they can vote on things, but that is it.
So basically you are looking at The Board, and the Founder/Owner. Now, as far as this goes, yah, it has a lot to do with who you know.
So no.. Amazon would not be glad to drop 30 Million to have his help making a game.
But one thing is clear: if Bobby Kotick doesn't get $30 mil + per year, the world as we know it will end... Go Bobby!
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
What's funny is Bobby doesn't even make 1/1000th of what Bezos makes.......Amazon probably has the best cash shop model around....
Hail Bezos, though. He should earn whatever he wants. Amirite?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
and those phone games have CEO's too, who need to make their millions, and thus they need to gouge you for every cent they can.. don't like, don't defend it.
Cheers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Like ,,. do you all realize where they get their money? That's right, from you. So, to pay that one person millions, they need to find ways to get you to part with your money, while at the same time doing the absolute least they can to get it.
Makes me laugh, because I heard someone explain to me once that the biggest problem with Americans, is that regardless of how poor, and low they are on the social ladder, they all think they are a rich person waiting to happen, so they blindly defend this obscene wealth inequity system, dreaming about the day it will happen to them. This is vastly unlike many other nations where the people are not under such delusions, so in these other nations they don't support and abide by such vast wealth disparity. They realize there is a limit, often times they resolve the issue of unfettered greed by increasing taxes to the point that it becomes and issue of diminishing returns to make such ostentatious amounts of money.
In any case, as we can see, there are many here that do support any and all predatory actions of game companies.
It was personally rather enlightening to see how many actually do support the predatory antics. I would have thought there would have been less, given the often typical reactions to monetization happening in games, and that more of them would have come to realize they are facing these predatory monetized systems in games these days due to unabashed greed, not due to actual the cost of production or product. I suppose that was my own naivety in this discussion, as they have all made it rather clear, they have always understood the situation and support it.
In that front.. it is what it is.
It's not applying the McDonald's approach, the reality is, that most workers are expendable. It's not what you want to hear, but it is probably truth. In certain businesses, the people that interact with customers is paramount, but in large corporations it likely doesn't work that way.
The issue with the athletes is that in reality, the athletes are the product. In the NFL, the CEO's are the 32 owners and your product is the 1800+ NFL players. The collective bargaining essentially splits 50% revenue to 32 owners and 50% revenue to the players.
In a company of designers and developers, the product is not them, it is the video game or the tech product. In athletics the weird thing is that the product = athletic employees whereas in most other places, product does not equal employees or in many other cases the employee environment is part of the product.
And also, 99% of your workers is not what makes your product. There are a shit ton of ancillary staff that have nothing to do with your product, they are cleaning, serving the cafeteria, manning the law offices, etc.
On the other hand, i think you are right about business owners saying you have to invest in the best employees. Let's take Bobby Kostik.
His "best employees" probably constitute the majority of developers and project managers and whoever makes the game. They also get paid a shit ton of money probably in the billions from total salary. That is way more than the CEO.
But . .. .CEO is one person who tells that billion dollar cadre what to do. So you invest in the best employees, but since only one person really decides, and you have a billion dollar revenue company. I think it is quite fair to make 30 million. Also, Activision-Blizzard IS investing in their employees, they are investing 30 million in their most important employee out of all the other important employees.
I'm not saying the only thing that matters is the top, I'm saying that given what I've mentioned:
1) Billion dollar revenue company
2) CEO has ability to generate 100's of millions of extra revenue.
3) The world is paying them that much and it is capitalism. So someone thinks they are worth it.
4) You can have the best employees ever but if you have an idiot leading them, it is useless. For example, you can have the best soldiers in the world, but if your general is a moron, you'll be outsmarted on the battle field.
Paying 30 million dollars is completely justified to a CEO of a billion dollar company. Let me put it another way, the leader of a billion dollar company has every right to make tens of millions of dollars. What the average person makes in the US or what the average employee makes is not relevant.
I do understand how on an emotional level it can be frustrating. Jeff Bezos makes billions of dollars and he has employees working their butt off for minimum wage. Yes, i get it, it is tough to swallow, it almost doesn't seem right, like it is morally wrong. But it is just capitalism.
On a personal level, I'm not a money grubbing selfish pig that agrees with big business screwing their employees over. I personally would change the corporate system to put more money back into the regular employees . . . it is easy to do. However, I am okay with capitalism and I believe i understand how the market/system works and thus based on how it works, I think big CEO pay is justified. Treating people like crap, screwing them over, etc is not okay.
Do I know if Bobby Kostik is ethical or not, I don't, but i think his salary is justified and so does the board of directors at blizzard-activision.
On a side note, laying 800 people off is not screwing people over. It is normal business.
If i have franchise of dental offices in the US. I have 800 dental offices. In my dental office, I do regular dentisty stuff and as a side business, I do sterile ear piercings. I have one employee in each store focused solely on ear piercings. Each other store has 19 other employees and dentists and whatever.
My 800 franchised dental offices make 1.25 million in revenue per year = 1 billion in revenue. As owner of the franchised dental offices, I take a salary of 30 million and my total expenses are 700 million. So 30 million is my salary and 270 million is split over all the 800 offices.
Then I look at the numbers and decide that the ear piercing revenue sucks and is actually losing money. I decide to stop the ear piercing business and the 800 stores each lay off their ear piercing employee.
Am I an asshole/evil/a dick for closing the ear piercing. Should someone come up to me and be like, yo bro, that is 800 employees each making 30k per year (24 million per year at 4 million loss). You make 30 million. How could you lay them off when it is 800 employees making 30k each and you make 30 million?.
It would probably be better if I kept them and rebranded them to something that makes money, I think that is the ideal situation, but perhaps there isn't an alternative, so I let them all go. You could also say, why don't i just keep them, it is just costing the company an extra 4 million when you make 1 billion. Truthfully, that is somewhat valid but it isn't just the money with the employees, it is risk of litigation, etc.
Either way, good discussion, I don't think it is evil to pay a CEO tens of millions, nor do I think it is evil to lay off 800 employees even if you are making record profits. Trim the fat in business is the way capitalism works. The CEO is just doing their job.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
He doesn't NEED his 30 million paycheck, but the board of directors at Activision-Blizzard think he deserves it just as I think he deserves it.
Hell, I should dislike Bobby Kostik, he stopped development of starcraft 2 just within this year . . . but alas . . . i don't hate him, the game doesn't develop that much revenue, I get it. I like it, but i'm one of the few people who likes RTS. Why put resources into something that doesn't generate much money.
I am happy for the tradeoff, if I wasn't in such a capitalistic society, I'd be making dick money as a physician like so many other doctors around the world. But in America, I make good money, even though it is complete trash on the doctor totem pole.
Capitalism is a trade off, a lot of times the greed and money grubbing pisses me off but on the hand it feeds me
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
It needs to get fixed.
American voters need to get a clue.
Once upon a time....
Have I bitched about it? Yes. Did I always vote for the people who I thought would tax me less? Usually.
Did I ever take up arms and go marching down the street in a rally? No, but here in the States apparently that's becoming more of a thing, but at my age, I'll have to pass.
The Serenity prayer is appropriate I think.
God, grant me the Serenity
To accept the things I cannot change...
Courage to change the things I can,
And Wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.
Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it.
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His will.
That I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with Him forever in the next.
Amen.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon