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$15 is to little, $25 is too much.

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,648
Here is the reason box price of $59.95 plus $15 sub does not work any more.
Remember back in 2004 everyone both rich or poor, people could pay the price of the game and subscription ?


Inflation,
Between 2009 and 2017, the US Treasury began printing paper money at an alarming rate that feed into electronic money. Initially this money was worth its amount.  But once deeply distributed across the country and world, it becomes more worthless. 



Now, the problem of mmorpg and all video game products are a luxury that many can't afford even $15 subscription prices much less the $59.95 digital download.  REMEMBER HOW EVERYONE COULD AFFORD IT ?  Price was never an issue, no one talked about it.

Paychecks never increased to adjust !!!..... That $15 is just as hard to make, yet will not buy anything and will not keep the video game companies in business..... Both sides feel the impact.


Add poor game design between 2009 and 2021, made people switch to Social media and i-phones to spend money on. People are starving yet they have i-phones.  This is now the modern fun.

<Average quote>
" I'm starving and my phone bill needs to be paid"
Both are of equal importance.

$15 much less $25 for subscription is unthinkable.  $15 monthly was a good sweet spot.  It should be $25, yet $15 is now hard to come by.




What still works is "gambling sickness"....... Cash Shops.
People tend to think by giving a little, they are unique and hope for a lot in return.  The word "hope" is built into people, more so during desperate times.

Owe money ?.... play the lottery ! 





I'll end with this..... where screwed. 
mmolouGdemamiSandmanjwUngoodAlBQuirkymadazz
«1345678

Comments

  • remsleepremsleep Member EpicPosts: 1,966
    BDO is getting $60 monthly for 3 essential items that give buffs essential to gameplay as follows

    - increased storage and weight to character
    - removes 30% sales tax penalty in auction house (no player to player trade so everything goes through auction house)
    - increased combat and lifeskill(crafting) xp
    - increased item drop rates
    - increased number of mount and boat slots
    - vastly increased market place storage capacity
    - ability to change and reset skills ok the fly
    - ability to change character gear dye on the fly
    Etc...


    GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 355
    Camelot Unchained plans to have cheaper monthly sub than traditional MMORPGs. Crowfall has optional monthly sub (VIP).

    Overall I think that paying $15 per month for +75 hours of enjoyment is pretty cheap (compared to $30 for 3 hours of ski, or $20 for 2 hours of cinema).
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,648
    Camelot Unchained plans to have cheaper monthly sub than traditional MMORPGs. Crowfall has optional monthly sub (VIP).

    Overall I think that paying $15 per month for +75 hours of enjoyment is pretty cheap (compared to $30 for 3 hours of ski, or $20 for 2 hours of cinema).
    Ski and cinema is next, if we continue to print money.

    Gambling will be on the upswing, odd way get out of money problems, but it's what people do. 

    $15 for all that game time is cheap, but why are people now complaining even without box price ?....... 2004 no one complained.
    GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 355
    Camelot Unchained plans to have cheaper monthly sub than traditional MMORPGs. Crowfall has optional monthly sub (VIP).

    Overall I think that paying $15 per month for +75 hours of enjoyment is pretty cheap (compared to $30 for 3 hours of ski, or $20 for 2 hours of cinema).
    Ski and cinema is next, if we continue to print money.

    Gambling will be on the upswing, odd way get out of money problems, but it's what people do. 

    $15 for all that game time is cheap, but why are people now complaining even without box price ?....... 2004 no one complained.
    I don't remember if players were complaining back in 2004, but some of them surely were looking for F2P alternatives (e.g. Knight Online)
    tzervoKyleranrojoArcueidAlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,409
    edited February 8
    Are you sure paychecks haven't risen since 2004? I make MUCH more than I did in 2004.

    I mean, just searching I found this several years old article so I suspect it's risen even more ...

    https://thehill.com/policy/finance/414042-yearly-wage-growth-rises-to-fastest-rate-since-2008
    francis_baudKyleranAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,556
    I think it was down to what players became used to, F2P meant Subs were seen as too expensive and F2P was the answer. That was before they brought the subs back and started the loot boxes along with all the microtransactions. So the switch to F2P was all about making MMOs cheaper to play. Right.

    Good to see you back, avoid the drama if that's possible on the internet. :)
    delete5230AlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,648
    edited February 8
    Sovrath said:
    Are you sure paychecks haven't risen since 2004? I make MUCH more than I did in 2004.


    Yes, I'm exaggerating, me too

    But I can also see $15 buys you nothing, MOST people don't double in salaries, and MOST are not very fortunate.

    I see this daily... I'm sure you do to.

    Wife's family comes up my house to eat my candy... he can't even afford candy!..... But has the latest i-phone :)
    AlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,409
    Sovrath said:
    Are you sure paychecks haven't risen since 2004? I make MUCH more than I did in 2004.


    Yes, I'm exaggerating, me too

    But I can also see $15 buys you nothing, MOST people don't double in salaries, and MOST are not very fortunate.

    I see this daily... I'm sure you do to.

    Wife's family comes up my house to eat my candy... he can't even afford candy!..... But has the latest i-phone :)
    well that sounds like personal choices.

    I tend  not to listen to people who cry poverty if they have the latest cell phone and several subscriptions to various streaming services, etc.
    delete5230KyleranRoinrojoArcueidAlBQuirky
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,648
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Are you sure paychecks haven't risen since 2004? I make MUCH more than I did in 2004.


    Yes, I'm exaggerating, me too

    But I can also see $15 buys you nothing, MOST people don't double in salaries, and MOST are not very fortunate.

    I see this daily... I'm sure you do to.

    Wife's family comes up my house to eat my candy... he can't even afford candy!..... But has the latest i-phone :)
    well that sounds like personal choices.

    I tend  not to listen to people who cry poverty if they have the latest cell phone and several subscriptions to various streaming services, etc.
    Millennials,

    True story,
    Just last week he came to my house for a three hour visit.  He came with a dead phone and forgot his charger.... We drove around for one hour to find a phone charger... all for a three hour visit.   

    24 years old :) 
  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Member RarePosts: 3,144
    Hyperbole  and conjecture at their finest. Welcome back.
    delete5230

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,409
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Are you sure paychecks haven't risen since 2004? I make MUCH more than I did in 2004.


    Yes, I'm exaggerating, me too

    But I can also see $15 buys you nothing, MOST people don't double in salaries, and MOST are not very fortunate.

    I see this daily... I'm sure you do to.

    Wife's family comes up my house to eat my candy... he can't even afford candy!..... But has the latest i-phone :)
    well that sounds like personal choices.

    I tend  not to listen to people who cry poverty if they have the latest cell phone and several subscriptions to various streaming services, etc.
    Millennials,

    True story,
    Just last week he came to my house for a three hour visit.  He came with a dead phone and forgot his charger.... We drove around for one hour to find a phone charger... all for a three hour visit.   

    24 years old :) 
    There's another difference between us, I wouldn't have driven around. I would have said "deal with it."

    Welcome back.
    delete5230KyleranAlBQuirky
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,606
    edited February 8
    I do not think $60 is enough to fund a really well developed game,not even close.
    So what devs need to do is keep the price affordable,attractive to gamers but recoup their losses as well as turn a profit.

    A sub fee is simply too much,so what is fair?IMO a well developed game needs around a $100 price tag but nobody will play it and that would be a huge risk for any studio to ask that price even though likely 75% in SC have laready spent more than that without even a finished game.I would say MOST cash shop games are costing people far above $100 to play and still never receive the full game only whatever they can afford from the cash shop.

    So it is up to the industry to drill into consumers that cash shops are NOT cheaper and 50+sub fees are not cheaper either.So a straight up $100 price tag is where it needs to be.
    Even if a studio does a really good job of making a really good mmorpg it does not mean they will reach even 1 million player,that wouldbe a return of 100 million,not nearly enough for a AAA mmorpg.So now you see the never ending problem of HOW to monetize,HOW to recoup losses,NO guarantees and lots of risk.

    This is why i KNOW we will NEVER see a true passionate built AAA mmorpg because it does NOT make any sense financially.Instead studios will keep whipping out half assed products and hope something gets lucky,maybe great marketing,maybe popular streamers help with hype but still always a risk.

    delete5230AlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,501
    remsleep said:
    BDO is getting $60 monthly for 3 essential items that give buffs essential to gameplay as follows

    - increased storage and weight to character
    - removes 30% sales tax penalty in auction house (no player to player trade so everything goes through auction house)
    - increased combat and lifeskill(crafting) xp
    - increased item drop rates
    - increased number of mount and boat slots
    - vastly increased market place storage capacity
    - ability to change and reset skills ok the fly
    - ability to change character gear dye on the fly
    Etc...




    so players are giving money to the company who put this things there to force you to pay?


    so tell me how its essencially diference btw this and protection money?, or highwaymen who tell people to pay then so they can travel safe over the road?
    GdemamiAlBQuirky
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,606
    edited February 8
    It really is SIMPLE math,no studio is going to be able to make a AAA game and fit it into a poor mans budget,it is IMPOSSIBLE for any studio to pull off.
    You can't take a 300+ million dollar game and sell it for 50 bucks.A few really rich studios can spend a ton on marketing and hype and paying off streamers and websites to help hype their games but most studios cannot afford to do that.

    There is a very old saying,you get what you pay for and in gaming there is a very good chance you get even less.

    If you don't have the money or find the prices too steep,you'll end up playing ARPG crap and LOL and Dota and Destiny BR's aka Fortnite all the really shallow games.
    AlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,207
    edited February 8
    Camelot Unchained plans to have cheaper monthly sub than traditional MMORPGs. Crowfall has optional monthly sub (VIP).

    Overall I think that paying $15 per month for +75 hours of enjoyment is pretty cheap (compared to $30 for 3 hours of ski, or $20 for 2 hours of cinema).
    The problem with P2P model wasn't about cheap or expensive. But the steps between the payment.

    The natural of service of P2P game is difference vs the services or ski or cinema.

    More like netflix but less contents .

    AlBQuirky
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,517
    Here is the reason box price of $59.95 plus $15 sub does not work any more.
    Remember back in 2004 everyone both rich or poor, people could pay the price of the game and subscription ?


    Inflation,
    Between 2009 and 2017, the US Treasury began printing paper money at an alarming rate that feed into electronic money. Initially this money was worth its amount.  But once deeply distributed across the country and world, it becomes more worthless. 



    Now, the problem of mmorpg and all video game products are a luxury that many can't afford even $15 subscription prices much less the $59.95 digital download.  REMEMBER HOW EVERYONE COULD AFFORD IT ?  Price was never an issue, no one talked about it.

    Paychecks never increased to adjust !!!..... That $15 is just as hard to make, yet will not buy anything and will not keep the video game companies in business..... Both sides feel the impact.


    Add poor game design between 2009 and 2021, made people switch to Social media and i-phones to spend money on. People are starving yet they have i-phones.  This is now the modern fun.

    <Average quote>
    " I'm starving and my phone bill needs to be paid"
    Both are of equal importance.

    $15 much less $25 for subscription is unthinkable.  $15 monthly was a good sweet spot.  It should be $25, yet $15 is now hard to come by.




    What still works is "gambling sickness"....... Cash Shops.
    People tend to think by giving a little, they are unique and hope for a lot in return.  The word "hope" is built into people, more so during desperate times.

    Owe money ?.... play the lottery ! 





    I'll end with this..... where screwed. 

    Yet, it is working as is evidenced by the several MMORPGs that continue to function with paid for expansions and subscription fees. It doesn't work ideally, as the revenue apparently needs to be bolstered with cash shop revenue, or simply provides desired additional revenue. Regardless, they keep chugging along.

    However, with subscription games where the cash shop is supplemental, purchasesare usually in no way needed. One does not need cosmetics, progression boosts, fancy mounts and such. Sometimes they also provide services not obtainable elsewhere, but from what I've seen these are the same as those that cost extra back in the subscription only days.

    So, since none of it needed, or would have cost extra anyway if done in the past, players are only as "screwed" as they want to be when cash shops are supplemental.

    When the cash shop is the only source of ongoing revenue it tends to offer items one could easily consider more about need than desire. But, if someone chooses to play a game funded by  nickle-and-diming the player to death they are opting in to what comes along with.

    There are a few f2p games entirely reliant on cash shops where the inventory is more like that of subscription games that thrive regardless due to popularity, PoE being an example. Some might feel that ideal, but it's pretty rare.

    A subscription only game free of a cash shop with a higher subscription cost than today's standard may work now as player discontent with cash shops seems to endlessly escalate. It would be like any other premium service people are willing to pay more for to avoid elements of the standard they disfavour and those have proven viable for entertainment products.
    delete5230GdemamiAlBQuirky
  • olepiolepi Member RarePosts: 1,522
    $15 today buys a LOT more computer that it did in the past.

    For example, in 1980, I bought computer systems for Motorola. A 300 mb disk was the size of a washing machine and cost $15,000 in 1980 dollars. Today, you can buy 10 times that much for $100.

    What kind of gaming PC did you have in 2004? I bet the one you have today cost a similar amount, and is 10X more powerful.

    Let's say make a game today for $300 million, and it sells 1 million copies at $50, and has 1 million subscribers at $15 a month. That is $50 million in sales, and $180 million  a year in subscriptions. You will be profitable in the 2nd year, with over $400 million in sales.
    ScotJean-Luc_PicardiixviiiixKyleranRoinAlBQuirky

    ------------
    2020: 43 years on the Net.


  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,968
    I will pay $50/m for a quality, well supported game.
    Jean-Luc_PicardLinifAlBQuirky
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,517
    remsleep said:
    BDO is getting $60 monthly for 3 essential items that give buffs essential to gameplay as follows

    - increased storage and weight to character
    - removes 30% sales tax penalty in auction house (no player to player trade so everything goes through auction house)
    - increased combat and lifeskill(crafting) xp
    - increased item drop rates
    - increased number of mount and boat slots
    - vastly increased market place storage capacity
    - ability to change and reset skills ok the fly
    - ability to change character gear dye on the fly
    Etc...




    so players are giving money to the company who put this things there to force you to pay?


    so tell me how its essencially diference btw this and protection money?, or highwaymen who tell people to pay then so they can travel safe over the road?

    Well, if you fail to pay protection money to a highwayman right beside you, he can harm or kill you. If you choose not to purchase things in an online game you are not subject to immediate injury or death. One of these things is not like the other.

    That list of what can be bought does seem to provide a great deal of benefit for those that can afford it. For those that can, good for them.

    Those that can't will be at a disadvantage comparatively. But, they can still play. If they can't afford the cost of a subscription game they can't play at a disadvantage because they can't play at all.

    The marketing model is beneficial to some players.
    GdemamiKyleranAlBQuirky
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,838
    Cant agree with the OP at all.


    What you are willing to pay for a game is purely subjective. We all make our own value judgements based on personal preferences. If we think something is worth the money, we'll pay for it.


    So, $15 isn't too little, and $25 isn't too much. They're just numbers, without context they mean nothing.



    But, attach them to a specific game, and compare against the market, then we can pass judgement.

    I would happily pay a large subscription for an MMORPG.....if I thought the game was good enough. Likewise, I'd happily pay a small subscription for a lower quality game.

    To this day, I've never spent money in a cash shop, because I have yet to find anything I felt was worth the money being asked. But that could easily change if studios changed the prices, or added something i felt was really worth it.



    With a more specific example, like someone said above, Camelot Unchained is planning on being subscription only, and having a lower sub price than normal. So, I intend to subscribe. First, because I want to play, and second, with the lower sub price I feel more comfortable paying it for a niche game. If they'd gone with a higher-than-normal sub price, I'd be more wary and less likely to play (and pay).
    KyleranTorvalBrainyAlBQuirky
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,517
    To this day, I've never spent money in a cash shop, because I have yet to find anything I felt was worth the money being asked. But that could easily change if studios changed the prices, or added something i felt was really worth it.

    My subscription to ESO comes with a stipend of cash shop currency, which I limit my purchases to over the year. I enjoy that as I can pick up a few things without any additional cost, making the prices associated not a bother.

    If they actually cost additional money I wouldn't purchase them, as though some items appeal none do to that degree.
    BruceYeeTorvalAlBQuirky
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,450
    edited February 8
    No thanks. The subscription model doesn't work because $15/mo is too much. For one game. That's more than a Netflix subscription. That's almost as much as Gamepass. For one game. And multiple games in this genre want to charge a subscription, basically making them mutually exclusive to most players. And then they double dip on selling you the content (that your subscription should be paying for) with expansions. And then they triple dip on selling you the content (that your subscription should be paying for) with cash shops.

    It does nothing for you anymore, and when the model fails, I'll say good riddance.
    BrainyAlBQuirky
  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Member RarePosts: 3,144
    Cant agree with the OP at all.

    *snip
    Does anybody? Ever?
    CryomatrixAlBQuirky

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • SandmanjwSandmanjw Member RarePosts: 350
    Here is the reason box price of $59.95 plus $15 sub does not work any more.
    Remember back in 2004 everyone both rich or poor, people could pay the price of the game and subscription ?


    Inflation,
    Between 2009 and 2017, the US Treasury began printing paper money at an alarming rate that feed into electronic money. Initially this money was worth its amount.  But once deeply distributed across the country and world, it becomes more worthless. 



    Now, the problem of mmorpg and all video game products are a luxury that many can't afford even $15 subscription prices much less the $59.95 digital download.  REMEMBER HOW EVERYONE COULD AFFORD IT ?  Price was never an issue, no one talked about it.

    Paychecks never increased to adjust !!!..... That $15 is just as hard to make, yet will not buy anything and will not keep the video game companies in business..... Both sides feel the impact.


    Add poor game design between 2009 and 2021, made people switch to Social media and i-phones to spend money on. People are starving yet they have i-phones.  This is now the modern fun.

    <Average quote>
    " I'm starving and my phone bill needs to be paid"
    Both are of equal importance.

    $15 much less $25 for subscription is unthinkable.  $15 monthly was a good sweet spot.  It should be $25, yet $15 is now hard to come by.




    What still works is "gambling sickness"....... Cash Shops.
    People tend to think by giving a little, they are unique and hope for a lot in return.  The word "hope" is built into people, more so during desperate times.

    Owe money ?.... play the lottery ! 





    I'll end with this..... where screwed. 
    You are forgetting the main reason no one complained about the subs back then.

    We were paying by the freaking hour for games....

    Same thing in games as other services and goods....more competition, equals lowering the prices. Lowering the prices, more games to choose from. More capital people invest in the making of games. 

    Why we went through a boom...which is always followed by a bust...

    And then the new cash people looking for better marketing and cash income models...so on and so on...nothing new is going on. Really following almost all capitalist society and history of products and services.

    Can complain about it ...but until something better comes along...
    MendelBrainyAlBQuirky
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,306
    The $25 dollar /month price tag hasn't kept up with the inflation rates seen in other entertainment forms.  A movie ticket cost roughly $5 in 1999; today that is closer to $15.  So, it should be around $45/month to keep up.  Games companies might be able to run at $15/month, but professional investors see this a major problem.



    SovrathGdemamiSandmanjwAlBQuirkymadazz

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

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