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Rally...come together again to renew an effort
delete5230
Member EpicPosts: 7,081
"Let's get there together" is needed to revive a good classic game.
As mmorpg's get older they run their course and burn out no matter how good they are.... it's a fact no matter how good they are, time itself causes a down draft. People are fast to hop on the next latest and greatest, leaving great games behind.
Never to recover !!..... It's an odd situation that happens to video games and more for mmorpg's.... it's a factual problem.
When I was in my late 20's and frequenting bars, nightclubs or taverns, we had "hot spot" nightclubs that lasted a year only to be out done by the next Hotspot. The original night club would instantly clear out of patron's, clear out to zero and never recover. Odd how that happened, but did none the less.
Night clubs and mmorpgs !!!!!
Word-of-mouth can't solve a revival of a good mmorpg that many would like to see happen. No central hub for getting people together at the same time.
Important:
People linger back, but never in unison, never at the same time !!
Marketing rally's don't work because it's an individual effort.... It's like the night club owner saying "hay come back".... It's like a done deal that can't be recovered.
People would have to do it but can't...... It's the internets fault. No reasonable way to get people together. No amber alert for video games for everyone to see.
Vanguard almost did it with SOE marketing but still no amber alert.... they couldn't get it across the board.
How did I come to this conclusion ?
Well, Vanguard.... I did come back and stayed for quite some time. It just so happens I'm infatuated with populations, I use the social panels provided with all mmorpg's. I STUDY POPULATIONS !!!
Odd anomaly.... people did come back in the "hundreds", problem is NEVER AT THE SAME TIME. It's a fact, low populations at any time at a snap shot glance..... No amber alert saying "everyone come back now".
Unfortunately, you can't fix the internet, therefore no solution. Classics have to rot.
Newer games such as ESO, FF14 and GW2 and WoW expansions, seem to have longevity ONLY because mmorpg's are not advancing for the next hot spot.
As mmorpg's get older they run their course and burn out no matter how good they are.... it's a fact no matter how good they are, time itself causes a down draft. People are fast to hop on the next latest and greatest, leaving great games behind.
Never to recover !!..... It's an odd situation that happens to video games and more for mmorpg's.... it's a factual problem.
When I was in my late 20's and frequenting bars, nightclubs or taverns, we had "hot spot" nightclubs that lasted a year only to be out done by the next Hotspot. The original night club would instantly clear out of patron's, clear out to zero and never recover. Odd how that happened, but did none the less.
Night clubs and mmorpgs !!!!!
Word-of-mouth can't solve a revival of a good mmorpg that many would like to see happen. No central hub for getting people together at the same time.
Important:
People linger back, but never in unison, never at the same time !!
Marketing rally's don't work because it's an individual effort.... It's like the night club owner saying "hay come back".... It's like a done deal that can't be recovered.
People would have to do it but can't...... It's the internets fault. No reasonable way to get people together. No amber alert for video games for everyone to see.
Vanguard almost did it with SOE marketing but still no amber alert.... they couldn't get it across the board.
How did I come to this conclusion ?
Well, Vanguard.... I did come back and stayed for quite some time. It just so happens I'm infatuated with populations, I use the social panels provided with all mmorpg's. I STUDY POPULATIONS !!!
Odd anomaly.... people did come back in the "hundreds", problem is NEVER AT THE SAME TIME. It's a fact, low populations at any time at a snap shot glance..... No amber alert saying "everyone come back now".
Unfortunately, you can't fix the internet, therefore no solution. Classics have to rot.
Newer games such as ESO, FF14 and GW2 and WoW expansions, seem to have longevity ONLY because mmorpg's are not advancing for the next hot spot.
Comments
Since players function in Time Zones, (Often called Prime Time in their Time Zone, which lasts around 4 hours. typical 6 - 10 pm local time, IE: Prime time for EST is UTC 23:00 to 3:00) as such, few hundred or even a thousand players returning all playing within the same time zone, would generate a huge sensation in population spike for others that typically played in those time zones as well, even if all other times of the game felt as dead as always (if not more so), that one time frame would feel totally revitalized.
This is really.. and I mean.. Really.. Noticeable for PvP/RvR games, and I witnessed this first hand in GW2 a lot, as the term used is Coverage Gaps, or Coverage Windows. Where you can tell that the other Realms population is waning during specific time zones. And when they got a population boost for their off hours ergo, perhaps a guild moved to their server, to offer better defense for a lacking time zone, or even a boost in their normal prime time hours, as little as a 100 extra players on that battlefield over a 4 hour window, can be felt.. by a lot.
So make no mistake, a few hundred or thousand returning players can make a world of difference on some games. GW2, with a lot of open world/public events, returning players are felt, very much so, and by the game as a whole.
In a game like DDO that is more instance based, returning players are really only felt within their network.
So again, it really depends on the game.
That's pretty much how things work. The popularity of horses declined somewhat once cars became popular. Some people still enjoy horses though.
Newer games that are popular have longevity due to ongoing popularity. WoW in particular is getting a bit long in the tooth to be considered a flash in the pan.
Just like anything else, if something perceived to be much better comes along the old will be supplanted and fade to some degree, as what happened to older games when WoW surged on to the scene.
There is no solution as there is no problem to be solved. It has, is, and always will be the way of things. However, such replacements are rarely complete. The old often remains despite the new.
This is as true for MMORPGs as anything else. Although comparatively now niche in appeal many old games continue on commercially. Those no longer so offered are often available through other means.
So, I'm not really seeing a problem with things as they are or how they could change regardless.
If by some magic, the Devs have a moment of self awareness and realize whatever it is was that pissed off their stable player base to cause a direct decline, but I believe developers are way to egotistical to ever do this, and it's been my sampling that as far as MMO's go, like Smedly's NGE, they will more often than not drive the game to extinction before they will ever admit they were wrong and made a mistake.
But let's say by some magical grace, they somehow realize their mistake and revise the game back into a state before whatever it was they did that caused their core base to drift away, then they would have a solid chance of having returning players restore the game, and this is even more a case with F2P where it is very easy for players to return to the game, and give it another go.
Game hoppers, cannot restore a game, simply because they were never the ones carrying the game to start with, they were just hoppers, small bursts of sales here and there, the main target of expansions, to get the hoppers back for a quick burst of income, nothing more.
What keeps a game alive is the Core Base. The people that have been with the game long term. These are the people that have historically bought annual subs, they are the ones that buy the newest shiny from the Cash Shop, these are the people that can link the first item in the cash shop and the most recent item.. these are the Core of a game. They like the game, for whatever reasons, and they are glad to keep supporting it. When a developer, for whatever reasons, makes design decisions to alienate this base, that is when it signs it's own termination papers.
And if you look at some games, you can see the moment this happens to.
Like to use an example, with WoW. Somewhere between 2010 and 2011, WoW did something. honestly, I have no idea what, but they did something that pissed off their Core, and their numbers began to drop, they have not rebounded since. Whatever this was, it pissed off their Core players, the players that liked the game, were invested into it, they did something that made the game, less fun to them.
Now some people might say something like "Oh the game is just old" and say something like "That happens to every game" but that is total bullshit, EvE has seen continual growth for a decade straight, so being "Old" has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's all about keeping that core, happy.
Once this happens, you can't get hoppers to save it. The Core is not there anymore, and Hoppers, well, by definition they are not the long term players anyway, if by some magic thy stay for a year, even two, that will not save the game, that will at best prolong the inevitable. They are not going to be the Core of people, where 6 years later they are still there keeping the game alive, and that is what is needed to save an MMO.
Otherwise, what is the goal? To keep the game alive for few more months? To what end? If the Dev team has not realized whatever it is they have done wrong to alienate their core, that few months is just that.. a few months.. a brief reprieve from a downward slope, nothing more, they are not going to rebuild their lost core with gamers that were never core type players to begin with, so unless they find a way to rebuild their core with new players, or find a way to get their old core back, well.. in tribute to the new Viking MMO out.. their skein is tied.
I'll use an example of a bar i used to go to,that bar was so good i told out of towners i worked with about it.They sort of believed me and sort of didn't but go together to check it out one weekend.Back at work Monday they were like WOW you were right that Bar rocks.
We frequented that bar at least 3-4 time s a week and it never got old.The only reason we stopped going is the owners sold it and some new people from the USA came in and completely changed it and ruined it.Eventually it was gutted into some puny worthless bar about 1/10th the size and nobody went anymore.
Sports leagues,we played in the same leagues year after year because we enjoyed them,the atmosphere the people the owners running them,all great stuff.
Games i played UT99 for about 5 years until i spent all my time in FFXi for many years.I only leave when change is made for the worse and not because the game got old.I am STILL playing FFXI on private servers.
I still play a few games from the old Nintendo system and OFTEN,that has to be like 20 years ago or more.
Yes i..we move around a bit to add some flavor to the mix,some variety but if a game is to our liking we keep playing year after year.The gaming market is one giant flooded mess of mostly really bad games and i feel this is why it is so easy to sell the next pile of crap because people are bored and can't wait for a new game.I feel the majority don't really know what the hell they want.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
ESO and FFXIV recovered from poor starts, so it can happen.
What I mean by a developer screwing up, is when they alienate their core base or drive away the very demographic they sought to attract.
Which brings us to.
FFXIV, "A realm reborn" where they basically made a whole new game, I legit think that is like the one textbook example where the Dev was like "I fucked up, let me fix this" and went about fixing their mistake in an an effort attract new and previous players alike to rebuild their core... yes.. I mentioned that tactic that can work.
Rebuilding a Core, has happened in some MMO's, like for example, DDO went F2P to throw out this huge net to attract anyone they could get to try their game in a gambit to pull in a bunch of new people to rebuild their core. This does not mean they screwed up in making the game, they had other issues, one of which was an issue with IP disputes that stopped them from being able to be advertised with Wizard of the Coast, which hurt their ability to reach D&D players greatly. But again, that was not a Devs Screwed up, but a decent game buried in litigation from the start.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
MMORPG launches are complex I'm sure, so that "things happen" is a reasonable defense for rough starts I think provided the issues don't linger too long.
FFIV did have to greatly adapt their original mess. I think ESO managed with somewhat less intensive care. Regardless, they both fared substantially better after their efforts. That the Final Fantasy and Elder Scrolls series both had a large established fan base served them will in that I suspect, making players more prone to give second chances.
DDO is a case where the subscription model alone wasn't sustainable, as was the case for LotRO and pretty much everything else these days. They needed the extra revenue f2p provides which turned out to be enough for them to endure. Even without the issues you mentioned DDO would likely had shifted to f2p by now anyway.
Having a f2p option isn't an indication of developer failure at this point, but the difficulty of maintaining a subscription only game in a market that no longer follows that standard. Even long time holdouts such as EVE have had to make that accommodation.
With that said, I'll be honest, it was a friend of mine that told me about it, and got me into it, because I had never seen any adverts for it, and I wager I was not alone in being a long time D&D player that would have loved a game like that, but had no idea it even existed. That was until it finally gained Disney as a backer, who had the clout to settle it's legal issues, and Launched it's F2P plan and was suddenly in all the MMO articles about going F2P.
Even today, it is not advertised on my Wizards of the Coast product, which no doubt continues to hurt it's ability to advertise to it's target demographic, So that has been a massive bullet wound to their success to say the least.
I'm sure that the surrounding issues between Atari and Hasbro and the resulting impact on marketing were quite unhelpful for DDO at launch.
I'm also sure it would now be f2p regardless of those factors, though a better launch may have delayed the onset of that somewhat.
I suppose the existence of the game could be unknown to those new to MMORPGs even now, but I doubt that would persist for long, at least to any looking specifically for a D&D based game.
Disinterest today would be just as likely due to their restrictive f2p mode compared to that of many newer games, or simply a distaste for older games in general.
Too bad, I guess.
Runescape is still alive and popular. Ever wonder why that is?
I think the reality is the people who stick around in mmorpg are carrot on a stick chaser. Who just chase reward to reward. Never complain and don't quit mmorpg like the people complaining.
Really, what went down should not have dragged Turbine over the coals, or even Involved DDO, but they got dragged into the mess and suffered hard for it.
The real kicker is, that D&D was really, at it's core, Instance Based based game, I mean, when you think about it, when you play D&D, other groups of players don't get to jump into your campaign/dungeon runs, strangers don't jump into your adventure, eat your Cheetos, drink your Mountain Dew, slay the Balor, and move on.
No, you have your private instance where you and your group get to play our your adventure, so that setup worked great for a D&D based game.
Without a doubt it would have been F2P, like many others, but also keep in mind Turbine/DDO was a flagship test subject for making an existing Sub based MMO into a F2P, so much so, it is called The Turbine Model, as such, there is a chance that without what DDO/Turbine making that game play, F2P might have been delayed for a lot of other MMO's and things might have gone very different, if some other game set a standard.
As for people knowing about DDO in it's early years... you would first need to know one existed, and again, DDO was not allowed to be marketed alongside any WotC events, or Adverts, so basically, anything and everything to do with D&D, DDO was not allowed to be there, and advertise there.. so.. the main place of info for ALL D&D players was shut down to them. On top of that, WotC, made no mention of their existence and pretty much, for all intents denied they existed or were affiliated with them, unlike say, Neverwinter, that did get supported by WotC and in a typical manner, when I went to play Neverwinter, there was never any shortage of players that had no idea DDO existed, and their moderators removed any Mention of DDO from their Forums.
So.. To say that was unhelpful is a vast understatement, try more like crushing.
That would be like making a Avengers game, but not being allowed to advertise your game on anything that was officially affiliated with Marvel or Disney, because they disagree with what your parent company did with their IP (The Dispute was between Atari and Hasbro, Turbine was just a causality, because they were owned by Atari and using the D&D IP), and you legally have every right to use the IP, and didn't directly do anything wrong, they are still upset about it, and backlisted you from anything directly affiliated with them, that means, their Website, all events, shows, any books, advertisements, pretty much, anyone that wanted Marvels seal of approval, you were not able to work with, that would be a hell of a lot more debilitating to your success then simply being "unhelpful"
and that is what DDO faced.
I was just so enthralled at the time(2006) with the concept to living in a huge virtual world and meeting other people. Honestly, the lobby MMO has never clicked with me in the long term.
Is there some other hot gossip about Turbine that you know pertaining to the fallout from this DDO thing? I know DDO didn't have a great start, but I was under the impression that, up until the Warner acquisition, LoTRO was doing really well relative to other western developed MMOs on the market that weren't named Warcraft.
LOTRO, held it's own, Given that Turbine was also the maker of Ashron's Call, and Ashron's Call 2, both of which, you will find many here on this forum loved, sadly AC2, was shut down before it ever got off the ground, LOTRO only went F2P after DDO kicked into high gear and become a smashing success, to be fair, a bunch of other unrelated MMO's saw that Cash Shop Bling-Bling from DDO's re-launch as it where, from DDO Ebberon to DDO Unlimited, and that they could very easy convert a formally sub-based MMO into a F2P one, so.. that was just a snowball effect across many games.
Later, after Disney acquired Turbine, they opted to get out of MMO's altogether, this was not an issue directed at any specific game, or AFIK, at Turbine directly, they just felt that Mobil was the new wave of games, as such, all their MMO's were going to be shut down and all the staff laid off.
Now, No diss to the team that keeps the game running, but they were never AAA material to start with, they have even openly admitted such, they were good, I mean, a solid B+ team, overall, and, I think Disney knew that as well, and as opposed to putting out the money to hire the talent to try and get 4 ageing games to AAA quality, they opted to just shut the whole thing down, and go in a different direction.
SSG (Standing Stone Games) was a quick panic move by the existing staff that worked on the MMO's to make their own company in an effort to buy the rights to DDO and LOTRO and keep on developing them, as a smaller more independent company the profits from the 2 games was more than enough to keep them going, as well as giving them a job they loved, with people that enjoyed working with, and making a game they enjoy making, as I understand it, they even have scheduled Table Top D&D Campaigns they play,... Most of us could not ask for better than that in our lives.
The Turbine Model sucks, but was created at a time when f2p sucked in general. It's unfortunate they haven't made it more palatable over the years, but I suppose there would be good deal of complaint from long-tine customers if changes were made.
Understatement is one of my indulgences. No doubt it was quite a bother.
I'm sure word of mouth helped in that regard though, with Turbine also having LotRO. Fans of one would like as not be fans of the other, or at least know of those that DDO would likely appeal to. At any rate they endured until f2p was added, but I don't know how long of gap that was from the original release.
That it worked out in the end is fortunate as DDO has some distinctive elements that I don't think can be found elsewhere.