Two type of MMORPG players.

rensta

We all know there is the casual player and the old school player. I specifically am using the term old school, because they are a dying breed. 
But what does it mean to be a casual player? an old school player? What do these categorizations actually mean?
Let us start with the old school player.

The old school player sees the game as something of an achievement value in his life. His progress in the game gives him a sense of meaning for his actual life. As such, he is able to dedicate more time to these games, more specifically MMORPGS. The MMORPG becomes a reflection of his life, he sees his achievements in the game as a serious matter with actual value. He does not play just to relax, in fact, relaxing is usually what he is not after. The old school gamer relaxes when he takes a break from the game, not when he actually plays. 

Ok, so what about the casual player?
The casual player plays the game to relax. Any achievement he achieves in the game is usually of very little importance. The goal of playing the game is not to create a meaningful experience, Rather it is about relaxing. The casual player usually has a meaningful life outside of the MMORPG he is playing, he does not care for deeper mechanics or complicated styles of games. The casual player wants to shut his brain for 30 minutes or an hour at most usually and just relax. 

We can see that these two type of MMORPG gamers at deep odds with each other. It seems many are wishing the industry didn't go the way it seems to be going, which is in favour of the casual MMORPG player. But if you agree with what have have said, we can see that the casual player leads a more "healthy" life. We should want most of our society to play games in a casual manner. 

But what about our old school gamers? Should we just forget about them? What about people who are unable to find proper meaning in life for many different reasons, be it disability, depression, fear of socializing and many more endless things that might limit the ability of a human being to experience life in a manner that involves him in society. Dont these type of people deserve a place to enjoy and find meaning as well? 

In general one meaning in life is not above the other in a strict sense, but.... in a more practical manner, some meanings in life contribute to society, and some don't or even hurt society (my meaning in life is to be a serial killer for example). Still, if it doesn't hurt anyone, why should we take a means of meaning in life for someone? why should the old school gamers be forgotten. 

It is true that MMORPG'S at start were meant for old school gamer types only, these were the losers of society, the outcasts, the geeks. But now, what they helped create is being robbed from them by the society they are unable to find place within (oh the irony). 

But still it holds that games being designed for casual players is in general better for society. How can we still keep the trend of casual games going while not forgetting important human beings that receive greater meaning and happiness from these MMORPG'S? 

The answer to that in my opinion is to make these old school players an asset to the game. How can we do that? what does that mean? Well my idea is pretty simple and in fact nothing new. It resembles the situation of the dedicated guild leader who creates and manages events and who is online 24/7. All the casual guild members get a better gaming experience and the guild leader still gets his deeper meaning from the game as an old school gamer.
Such roles should be created more often in more games, roles that only the most dedicated players can reach and thus obtain the power to manage the casuals player experience around them. This will be the synthesis of the old school gamer type of MMORPG and casual gamer type of MMORPG.
a place where both can thrive and enjoy. 

What do you think? disagree completely?  have another solution? maybe there is no problem to begin with. Feel free to share your thoughts. 

God bless.         
 

delete5230

Their are no old school games to play.
Big business shut them down from being made regardless of popularity.

You say dying breed ?.... Sure they have to be if their are none.


Two types of players:
- Casual 
- Ones willing to play 15 year old games

Sovrath

delete5230 said:

Their are no old school games to play.
Big business shut them down from being made regardless of popularity.

You say dying breed ?.... Sure they have to be if their are none.


Two types of players:
- Casual 
- Ones willing to play 15 year old games

I would argue that a "15 year old game" is as old school as you get.

Po_gg

Same here, the distinction is clearly off since I don't fit into either...

rem's list is better, on that I'd be a rose-smelling social player with moderate enough time

Nanfoodle

I am casual in that I only play a few hours a week now (have many RL responsibilities) but when I play, I play hardcore. I have game plans, paths I follow. I have goals to where I want to be in the next 30-60-90 days. And when I vacation, I get some really big game time in. I play hardcore with my limited game time. So I am not sure where I fit in this mold you put forward. 

xpsync

No, no, no

There are three types of mmorpg players.

Those who can count, and those who can't.

AngryElf

Thanks for categorizing me. I wasn't sure where I fit in.
In any case, old school and casual, as you described them, are not at odds, but share a symbiotic relationship.  There generally aren't enough "old school" players to support a game alone, and too many in one spot leads to fatal toxicity.  "Casuals" need the "old school" to do all the min-max research, raid planning, quest research, and role designations so they can work effectively in their limited time. "Casuals" are too fickle to rely on monthly subs and long-term investments, so they aren't going to support a game alone either. Together, they can create a functional ecosystem.  

Scot

Old school gamers will not die, but Rensta clearly wishes they would. As time sees many pass on, many more will join their ranks as gaming is growing and more gamers than ever are becoming old gamers. They may not want what we do, but they will want something modern gaming is not giving them.


"It is true that MMORPG'S at start were meant for old school gamer types only, these were the losers of society, the outcasts, the geeks. But now, what they helped create is being robbed from them by the society they are unable to find place within (oh the irony)."

Oh the patronizing twaddle, who do you think you are to say we were losers? Go and play your casual games, which you think are so wonderful and don't worry about us, I for one can live without your concern.

delete5230

Nanfoodle said:

I am casual in that I only play a few hours a week now (have many RL responsibilities) but when I play, I play hardcore. I have game plans, paths I follow. I have goals to where I want to be in the next 30-60-90 days. And when I vacation, I get some really big game time in. I play hardcore with my limited game time. So I am not sure where I fit in this mold you put forward. 

Love it, this is how I always played.

So many are under the impression you have to play 8 hours a day.
I log in find a group to do hard core shit as my time allows.

Why is that so hard for so many to grasp ?

No one seems to know how to take control, and so many are willing to go along.... infact their often starving for something to do.

AlBQuirky

I'm with Rem's more in-depth breakdown. I played EQ and was a casual that never had a character above 39th level in playing  over three years of the game. That included many 48 hour weekends where I did not focus solely on leveling. I did A LOT exploring and crafting, too.

Old school and casual players are definitively some types of players, agreed. They are a bad comparison to use in contrasting each other, though.

What old school MMORPGs gave to me was in depth worlds and an abundance of varying activities that kept me entertained. This is what I miss about newer games

rensta

delete5230 said:

Their are no old school games to play.
Big business shut them down from being made regardless of popularity.

You say dying breed ?.... Sure they have to be if their are none.


Two types of players:
- Casual 
- Ones willing to play 15 year old games

Well, i think many old school gamers are playing casual games and feeling frustrated. Maybe i am wrong.

rensta

remsleep said:

I sort of disagree with your definition of 

casual player = wants to relax and not to have a meaningful experience

vs

old school player = sees the game as achievments important in his life


I think all gamers seek one thing - to immerse themselves and enjoy the game and have a meaningful fun experience - the time constraints are something that vary greatly from player to player.

I also am not sure about breaking this down to "casual vs old school" - because there were certainly casual old school players.

To me important distinctions are -
social vs solo
min/max vs smell the roses player
player with lots of free time vs players with very constrained time
old school - it speaks to what type of game design more so than what type of player
Quest driven player vs grind mobs player
vertical progression vs horizontal progression
prefers themepark gameplay vs sandbox gameplay
PvE player vs PvP player
etc..

You could have any combination like a social player who likes the small the roses and has very constrained time

Or a Social min/max player with lots of free time that prefers PvP etc...

Well, i think my use of the words old school gamers is a bit problematic, it creats bit of confusion. >>> My old school gamer doesnt need to be one that is playing MMORPG'S for 15 years, he might be a new player. he might not care about min max and he can be a very social player. what makes him old school is the fact that he dedicates a lot of time to the game, and that is because it gives him a sense of meaning and purpose.  

rensta

Po_gg said:

Same here, the distinction is clearly off since I don't fit into either...

rem's list is better, on that I'd be a rose-smelling social player with moderate enough time

Yes I agree, my distinctions are lacking and confusing, I shouldve put more time into it. 
I guess the split is between people who see the achievement in their games are of some importance and see it as a big part of their meaningful life, versus people that just come to pass some time and "chill" (although both can create meaningful friendships).  

rensta

Nanfoodle said:

I am casual in that I only play a few hours a week now (have many RL responsibilities) but when I play, I play hardcore. I have game plans, paths I follow. I have goals to where I want to be in the next 30-60-90 days. And when I vacation, I get some really big game time in. I play hardcore with my limited game time. So I am not sure where I fit in this mold you put forward. 

You'd be an oldschool player that is forced to play less because of social obligations in my opinion. 

rensta

AngryElf said:

Thanks for categorizing me. I wasn't sure where I fit in.
In any case, old school and casual, as you described them, are not at odds, but share a symbiotic relationship.  There generally aren't enough "old school" players to support a game alone, and too many in one spot leads to fatal toxicity.  "Casuals" need the "old school" to do all the min-max research, raid planning, quest research, and role designations so they can work effectively in their limited time. "Casuals" are too fickle to rely on monthly subs and long-term investments, so they aren't going to support a game alone either. Together, they can create a functional ecosystem.  

Yes, this is what I have been trying to push forward, but i clearly lack the language expression skills. 
I think it would be good if more game developers understand this and instead of trying to cater to one group or the other, try to create games where both have a place. That will in general make games better for both casual and old school gamers. 

Also, I didnt try to categorize anyone, that is not the purpose, so please i hope i dont offend anyone. Sadly though, to talk about some things, generalizations have to be made, else its hard to understand what it is we are talking about. Especially with people like me that fail to capture the point precisely enough. 

rensta

Scot said:

Old school gamers will not die, but Rensta clearly wishes they would. As time sees many pass on, many more will join their ranks as gaming is growing and more gamers than ever are becoming old gamers. They may not want what we do, but they will want something modern gaming is not giving them.


"It is true that MMORPG'S at start were meant for old school gamer types only, these were the losers of society, the outcasts, the geeks. But now, what they helped create is being robbed from them by the society they are unable to find place within (oh the irony)."

Oh the patronizing twaddle, who do you think you are to say we were losers? Go and play your casual games, which you think are so wonderful and don't worry about us, I for one can live without your concern.

Well you can focus on what you wish. I tried making it clear that one meaning in life is not better than the other. Also, for most of my time i was that type of "loser" that depended on old school type of mmorpgs to find meaning in my life. It helped me a lot. So I in no way am trying to look down on these type of people.... Just trying to have a discussion. Also, I dont wish any type of gamer would die... My conclusion is that a synthesis of both types will benefit us all.... So i dont know how you reached that conclusion. 
I might add that a synthesis would give old school gamers a social role of giving entertainment to casual players (same as musicians do etc)..... And as such they would be on complete equal footing in contributing to society..  

Ungood

I could not disagree more with the OP if I tried, and as I read the whole thing, it got worse and worse.

First off, "Old School" is not the same as "Hard Core" there were plenty of Old School gamers that were just there to play a game and have some fun, in fact there were soo many of these Old School gamers that just wanted a means to escape and have fun in their game as opposed to a 2nd and 3rd job, that they were the ones that moved the genre into the direction it currently is in, they were the ones that jump ship from EQ to WoW, to set a whole new pace.

For openers, it's not "Old School" the term many use is "Hard Core"

But even that is not really correct, as there are 4 main kinds of Hard Core players.

Hard Core:

1) The Jock. (AKA: Elitist) This person typically has a life, they have a job, they play hard, they work hard, they party hard, they do everything in life with the idea that they must win, they are there to be the best in all they do, and games, MMO's, will be treated no different by them. But, because they have a life, a job, often someone to screw and spend time with, and many other things, they have a limited amount of time to play. These are the people that focus on the most min-max builds and ways to exp/min grind through content, they do not theory craft, they crunch numbers to win, and the game is looked upon as nothing more than a challenge to beat. Winning is the only thing they enjoy, everything else is just a ladder to winning (The Grind). Get to End Game, get the Good Loot, Screw the Princess, Brag, Boast, Drink Heavy! flaunt your e-peen, flip everyone off and tell the world that all the loser wish they were them, and then mostly quit or go dark in game, often staying on discord or private guild forums while they do something else till the next expansion or major update, when they come back like a bunch of angry rhinos in heat to stampede through the content and be 1st day! These people endlessly look down their nose at the unwashed masses and demand the praise from the peons that are and will always be benith them.

2) The Content Locust: These people grind through content like no one has ever seen, they play 24/7 till they have consumed all they can, unlike the jock, they are there for the desire for something new, something MORE, they will play just to experience the content, and then they move on as fast as they arrived. They are short lived gamers always looking for more to do, more to consume, they are not there for the long game, they are there to get into the game, and complete it. These are the people that master the most complex game mechanics day 1, and often will be the people that give the solutions to everyone else with the "Oh this so easy, just do this" kind of approach. I'm Bored. So Little Content to do in this game. The upside of these people, they are the ones that also help the people who write the guides and lead guilds learn how to play the newest, hardest, highest level stuff with ease. The down side is, their is a very short time window between when they arrive to when they leave to go off to some other game, because this one just got boring.

3) The No Lifer: These people live and breath their game. Often they do not have much of a life outside their game, minimal job/social life, so they have plenty of time to play, talk, chat, so, when they are not actively playing, they are theory crafting the next build. While this comes in both Casual and Hard Core, In the hard core version, they take their game very serious, these are the people that legitimately treat their game as if it was their career in life, they are always on the lookout for the best stuff, they best build, the best gear, the best guild to join, the best of everything the game can offer them. They also tend to be very rabid fanboi's of their beloved game. Their attitude can be hit or miss, but the end of things, these people are always on.

4) The Elite: Not to be confused with the Elitist. These are just gifted players, not only are they good at playing the game, they are fun people to be around and there for the love of the game, the community, these are the people that write guides, because they are the ones that could master the content (These are also the people that meet and keep up with the content locust, to learn the game), these are the people that make noob guilds, train people, these are the people that make the game the most amazing place it can be for those around them. They often have the best gear, know the content, love playing and socializing with other people, and are the people that want to lift everyone else up to their level, because.. again, Love of the Game. They often however, invest a lot of time into the game, treated it as their 2nd job, often all the time they are not dealing with life directly, they are in game, living the dream, which is why they have what they have, the time to do it, and in some cases, the money in real life to make it all happen.

So, I really hate the idea of when people say "You have 2 kinds of gamers" nothing could be further from the truth.

Just like at the gaming table, there are many kinds of gamers, from the Spaz to the Rules Lawyer.

rensta

Ungood said:

I could not disagree more with the OP if I tried, and as I read the whole thing, it got worse and worse.

First off, "Old School" is not the same as "Hard Core" there were plenty of Old School gamers that were just there to play a game and have some fun, in fact there were soo many of these Old School gamers that just wanted a means to escape and have fun in their game as opposed to a 2nd and 3rd job, that they were the ones that moved the genre into the direction it currently is in, they were the ones that jump ship from EQ to WoW, to set a whole new pace.

For openers, it's not "Old School" the term many use is "Hard Core"

But even that is not really correct, as there are 4 main kinds of Hard Core players.

Hard Core:

1) The Jock. (AKA: Elitist) This person typically has a life, they have a job, they play hard, they work hard, they party hard, they do everything in life with the idea that they must win, they are there to be the best in all they do, and games, MMO's, will be treated no different by them. But, because they have a life, a job, often someone to screw and spend time with, and many other things, they have a limited amount of time to play. These are the people that focus on the most min-max builds and ways to exp/min grind through content, they do not theory craft, they crunch numbers to win, and the game is looked upon as nothing more than a challenge to beat. Winning is the only thing they enjoy, everything else is just a ladder to winning (The Grind). Get to End Game, get the Good Loot, Screw the Princess, Brag, Boast, Drink Heavy! flaunt your e-peen, flip everyone off and tell the world that all the loser wish they were them, and then mostly quit or go dark in game, often staying on discord or private guild forums while they do something else till the next expansion or major update, when they come back like a bunch of angry rhinos in heat to stampede through the content and be 1st day! These people endlessly look down their nose at the unwashed masses and demand the praise from the peons that are and will always be benith them.

2) The Content Locust: These people grind through content like no one has ever seen, they play 24/7 till they have consumed all they can, unlike the jock, they are there for the desire for something new, something MORE, they will play just to experience the content, and then they move on as fast as they arrived. They are short lived gamers always looking for more to do, more to consume, they are not there for the long game, they are there to get into the game, and complete it. These are the people that master the most complex game mechanics day 1, and often will be the people that give the solutions to everyone else with the "Oh this so easy, just do this" kind of approach. I'm Bored. So Little Content to do in this game. The upside of these people, they are the ones that also help the people who write the guides and lead guilds learn how to play the newest, hardest, highest level stuff with ease. The down side is, their is a very short time window between when they arrive to when they leave to go off to some other game, because this one just got boring.

3) The No Lifer: These people live and breath their game. Often they do not have much of a life outside their game, minimal job/social life, so they have plenty of time to play, talk, chat, so, when they are not actively playing, they are theory crafting the next build. While this comes in both Casual and Hard Core, In the hard core version, they take their game very serious, these are the people that legitimately treat their game as if it was their career in life, they are always on the lookout for the best stuff, they best build, the best gear, the best guild to join, the best of everything the game can offer them. They also tend to be very rabid fanboi's of their beloved game. Their attitude can be hit or miss, but the end of things, these people are always on.

4) The Elite: Not to be confused with the Elitist. These are just gifted players, not only are they good at playing the game, they are fun people to be around and there for the love of the game, the community, these are the people that write guides, because they are the ones that could master the content (These are also the people that meet and keep up with the content locust, to learn the game), these are the people that make noob guilds, train people, these are the people that make the game the most amazing place it can be for those around them. They often have the best gear, know the content, love playing and socializing with other people, and are the people that want to lift everyone else up to their level, because.. again, Love of the Game. They often however, invest a lot of time into the game, treated it as their 2nd job, often all the time they are not dealing with life directly, they are in game, living the dream, which is why they have what they have, the time to do it, and in some cases, the money in real life to make it all happen.

So, I really hate the idea of when people say "You have 2 kinds of gamers" nothing could be further from the truth.

Just like at the gaming table, there are many kinds of gamers, from the Spaz to the Rules Lawyer.

Oh sorry, but i dont think i said that oldschool is hardcore. I just said for me the definition of oldschool gamer is one that the achievements he gets in the game are a core thing of his meaning in life. He might enjoy just chatting with people and doing the easy raids only, but the experience in the game gives him his life meaning. Getting that next level or item is a big deal in his meaning in life. Sorry for the confusion, I type badly. 
 

delete5230

rensta said:

Ungood said:

I could not disagree more with the OP if I tried, and as I read the whole thing, it got worse and worse.

First off, "Old School" is not the same as "Hard Core" there were plenty of Old School gamers that were just there to play a game and have some fun, in fact there were soo many of these Old School gamers that just wanted a means to escape and have fun in their game as opposed to a 2nd and 3rd job, that they were the ones that moved the genre into the direction it currently is in, they were the ones that jump ship from EQ to WoW, to set a whole new pace.

For openers, it's not "Old School" the term many use is "Hard Core"

But even that is not really correct, as there are 4 main kinds of Hard Core players.

Hard Core:

1) The Jock. (AKA: Elitist) This person typically has a life, they have a job, they play hard, they work hard, they party hard, they do everything in life with the idea that they must win, they are there to be the best in all they do, and games, MMO's, will be treated no different by them. But, because they have a life, a job, often someone to screw and spend time with, and many other things, they have a limited amount of time to play. These are the people that focus on the most min-max builds and ways to exp/min grind through content, they do not theory craft, they crunch numbers to win, and the game is looked upon as nothing more than a challenge to beat. Winning is the only thing they enjoy, everything else is just a ladder to winning (The Grind). Get to End Game, get the Good Loot, Screw the Princess, Brag, Boast, Drink Heavy! flaunt your e-peen, flip everyone off and tell the world that all the loser wish they were them, and then mostly quit or go dark in game, often staying on discord or private guild forums while they do something else till the next expansion or major update, when they come back like a bunch of angry rhinos in heat to stampede through the content and be 1st day! These people endlessly look down their nose at the unwashed masses and demand the praise from the peons that are and will always be benith them.

2) The Content Locust: These people grind through content like no one has ever seen, they play 24/7 till they have consumed all they can, unlike the jock, they are there for the desire for something new, something MORE, they will play just to experience the content, and then they move on as fast as they arrived. They are short lived gamers always looking for more to do, more to consume, they are not there for the long game, they are there to get into the game, and complete it. These are the people that master the most complex game mechanics day 1, and often will be the people that give the solutions to everyone else with the "Oh this so easy, just do this" kind of approach. I'm Bored. So Little Content to do in this game. The upside of these people, they are the ones that also help the people who write the guides and lead guilds learn how to play the newest, hardest, highest level stuff with ease. The down side is, their is a very short time window between when they arrive to when they leave to go off to some other game, because this one just got boring.

3) The No Lifer: These people live and breath their game. Often they do not have much of a life outside their game, minimal job/social life, so they have plenty of time to play, talk, chat, so, when they are not actively playing, they are theory crafting the next build. While this comes in both Casual and Hard Core, In the hard core version, they take their game very serious, these are the people that legitimately treat their game as if it was their career in life, they are always on the lookout for the best stuff, they best build, the best gear, the best guild to join, the best of everything the game can offer them. They also tend to be very rabid fanboi's of their beloved game. Their attitude can be hit or miss, but the end of things, these people are always on.

4) The Elite: Not to be confused with the Elitist. These are just gifted players, not only are they good at playing the game, they are fun people to be around and there for the love of the game, the community, these are the people that write guides, because they are the ones that could master the content (These are also the people that meet and keep up with the content locust, to learn the game), these are the people that make noob guilds, train people, these are the people that make the game the most amazing place it can be for those around them. They often have the best gear, know the content, love playing and socializing with other people, and are the people that want to lift everyone else up to their level, because.. again, Love of the Game. They often however, invest a lot of time into the game, treated it as their 2nd job, often all the time they are not dealing with life directly, they are in game, living the dream, which is why they have what they have, the time to do it, and in some cases, the money in real life to make it all happen.

So, I really hate the idea of when people say "You have 2 kinds of gamers" nothing could be further from the truth.

Just like at the gaming table, there are many kinds of gamers, from the Spaz to the Rules Lawyer.

Oh sorry, but i dont think i said that oldschool is hardcore. I just said for me the definition of oldschool gamer is one that the achievements he gets in the game are a core thing of his meaning in life. He might enjoy just chatting with people and doing the easy raids only, but the experience in the game gives him his life meaning. Getting that next level or item is a big deal in his meaning in life. Sorry for the confusion, I type badly. 
 

In that case the topic should have been three types.
- Casual
- Hard core
- Old school

Then again you can be casual old school and hard core old school. but you can't be casual hardcore.

I better stop now, I'm getting my under garments all twisted up in a knot thinking about it.

rensta

delete5230 said:

rensta said:

Ungood said:

I could not disagree more with the OP if I tried, and as I read the whole thing, it got worse and worse.

First off, "Old School" is not the same as "Hard Core" there were plenty of Old School gamers that were just there to play a game and have some fun, in fact there were soo many of these Old School gamers that just wanted a means to escape and have fun in their game as opposed to a 2nd and 3rd job, that they were the ones that moved the genre into the direction it currently is in, they were the ones that jump ship from EQ to WoW, to set a whole new pace.

For openers, it's not "Old School" the term many use is "Hard Core"

But even that is not really correct, as there are 4 main kinds of Hard Core players.

Hard Core:

1) The Jock. (AKA: Elitist) This person typically has a life, they have a job, they play hard, they work hard, they party hard, they do everything in life with the idea that they must win, they are there to be the best in all they do, and games, MMO's, will be treated no different by them. But, because they have a life, a job, often someone to screw and spend time with, and many other things, they have a limited amount of time to play. These are the people that focus on the most min-max builds and ways to exp/min grind through content, they do not theory craft, they crunch numbers to win, and the game is looked upon as nothing more than a challenge to beat. Winning is the only thing they enjoy, everything else is just a ladder to winning (The Grind). Get to End Game, get the Good Loot, Screw the Princess, Brag, Boast, Drink Heavy! flaunt your e-peen, flip everyone off and tell the world that all the loser wish they were them, and then mostly quit or go dark in game, often staying on discord or private guild forums while they do something else till the next expansion or major update, when they come back like a bunch of angry rhinos in heat to stampede through the content and be 1st day! These people endlessly look down their nose at the unwashed masses and demand the praise from the peons that are and will always be benith them.

2) The Content Locust: These people grind through content like no one has ever seen, they play 24/7 till they have consumed all they can, unlike the jock, they are there for the desire for something new, something MORE, they will play just to experience the content, and then they move on as fast as they arrived. They are short lived gamers always looking for more to do, more to consume, they are not there for the long game, they are there to get into the game, and complete it. These are the people that master the most complex game mechanics day 1, and often will be the people that give the solutions to everyone else with the "Oh this so easy, just do this" kind of approach. I'm Bored. So Little Content to do in this game. The upside of these people, they are the ones that also help the people who write the guides and lead guilds learn how to play the newest, hardest, highest level stuff with ease. The down side is, their is a very short time window between when they arrive to when they leave to go off to some other game, because this one just got boring.

3) The No Lifer: These people live and breath their game. Often they do not have much of a life outside their game, minimal job/social life, so they have plenty of time to play, talk, chat, so, when they are not actively playing, they are theory crafting the next build. While this comes in both Casual and Hard Core, In the hard core version, they take their game very serious, these are the people that legitimately treat their game as if it was their career in life, they are always on the lookout for the best stuff, they best build, the best gear, the best guild to join, the best of everything the game can offer them. They also tend to be very rabid fanboi's of their beloved game. Their attitude can be hit or miss, but the end of things, these people are always on.

4) The Elite: Not to be confused with the Elitist. These are just gifted players, not only are they good at playing the game, they are fun people to be around and there for the love of the game, the community, these are the people that write guides, because they are the ones that could master the content (These are also the people that meet and keep up with the content locust, to learn the game), these are the people that make noob guilds, train people, these are the people that make the game the most amazing place it can be for those around them. They often have the best gear, know the content, love playing and socializing with other people, and are the people that want to lift everyone else up to their level, because.. again, Love of the Game. They often however, invest a lot of time into the game, treated it as their 2nd job, often all the time they are not dealing with life directly, they are in game, living the dream, which is why they have what they have, the time to do it, and in some cases, the money in real life to make it all happen.

So, I really hate the idea of when people say "You have 2 kinds of gamers" nothing could be further from the truth.

Just like at the gaming table, there are many kinds of gamers, from the Spaz to the Rules Lawyer.

Oh sorry, but i dont think i said that oldschool is hardcore. I just said for me the definition of oldschool gamer is one that the achievements he gets in the game are a core thing of his meaning in life. He might enjoy just chatting with people and doing the easy raids only, but the experience in the game gives him his life meaning. Getting that next level or item is a big deal in his meaning in life. Sorry for the confusion, I type badly. 
 

In that case the topic should have been three types.
- Casual
- Hard core
- Old school

This stems from my bad use of words. When i use the words casual or old school I tried creating a new definition for them. This has proved to be a bad decision, I shouldve made up new terms or used somewhat less used terms. 

In my definition, a casual player can be hardcore. He plays casually in the sense that it doesnt serve as his meaning in life, but when he plays he is hardcore (min maxing and such> I for example am a casual hardcore player). 

Its my first time creating such a thread, so i learnt a lot. Thanks for the reply, it does make it more clear where I was wrong. 
 But yeah.. in my definitions both casual and oldschool can be called hardcore. 

AngryElf

rensta said:

AngryElf said:

Thanks for categorizing me. I wasn't sure where I fit in.
In any case, old school and casual, as you described them, are not at odds, but share a symbiotic relationship.  There generally aren't enough "old school" players to support a game alone, and too many in one spot leads to fatal toxicity.  "Casuals" need the "old school" to do all the min-max research, raid planning, quest research, and role designations so they can work effectively in their limited time. "Casuals" are too fickle to rely on monthly subs and long-term investments, so they aren't going to support a game alone either. Together, they can create a functional ecosystem.  

Yes, this is what I have been trying to push forward, but i clearly lack the language expression skills. 
I think it would be good if more game developers understand this and instead of trying to cater to one group or the other, try to create games where both have a place. That will in general make games better for both casual and old school gamers. 

Also, I didnt try to categorize anyone, that is not the purpose, so please i hope i dont offend anyone. Sadly though, to talk about some things, generalizations have to be made, else its hard to understand what it is we are talking about. Especially with people like me that fail to capture the point precisely enough. 

I'm on board with that.  Just being a b!tch though.  Not offended, just messing with you as if I could be. 

Wizardry

I am of a very small category of gamer,i want genres to improve over the years and not remain stagnant with a new gimmick.
The term old school only works if that old school product is my best option,casual only works if i can play the game casually but still enjoy a very REAL product that brings my game to life.

An example since it is so fresh in our minds is Cyberpunk.So the game tries to bring some real life to the world,people moving about,cars enroute flashing billboard lights etc etc.The problem is this has already been done before in GTA,how many years ago was that,well a lot.

So basically i am tired of the modern era of develoeprs just tossing out games like they came off an assembly line with the crowd funded ones coming off a broken assembly line.
You should be able to look at a game and think,man that is how i would want to do it and not....hmm half assed but should do the trick to make us millions.

AAAMEOW

I always thought old school gamers are just people who played games long time ago.  Or people who still enjoy playing old games.  Or people who play new games which resemble old games.  

olepi

I'd break it down into different categories, old-school vs casual is too simplistic.

Competitive -- these players want to win. It can be PvP or PvE, they want to have the best score, the highest dps, the top spot on the leader boards. They aren't casual, but they aren't "old-school" either. Any kind of game will do, even single-player games.

Completionist -- these players go methodically through an area, and do everything. If there is a badge, they want to get it. Again, any kind of game will do. I've heard of people cataloging all the flora and fauna in Morrowind. Just because.

Social -- these players play because they like playing with other people. They might be competitive, or a completionist, but the main reason they play is to play with other people.

Builders -- these players like to build things, craft things. They build houses, forts, space stations, etc. Any kind of game will do, from building a guild house to building your secret space abode. They might be social, might not; they could be competitive, maybe not.

World -- these players play to be in a virtual world. They might just fish for the whole day, or explore. In Ryzom, I loved to mount up, and take a packer out to dig. Smoke a cigar, listen to music, and look at the world around me.

Fireworks -- these players like the graphical effects. The "fireworks" effect, when your brain is overwhelmed with input and the crowd goes "ahhhhh". I play City of Heroes because I love all the effects going off, the chaos.

Story/puzzle -- these players like to follow a story, or solve puzzles.

Of course, any individual could be one or more of all of these. So you could be a completionist builder/crafter. Or a competitive PvP'er and fireworks player.

cameltosis

Like many others in this thread, I don't think you can break now players into just two categories, that is far too simplistic.

More like rem, I believe you can take just about any design decision for a game, and create a sliding scale for measuring the playerbase.

However, the way I have interpreted the OP is that players can be judged on the importance they place on games, how important gaming is in their lives. I can't view it as a casual vs old school arguement as that is too simplistic and doesn't really get to the meat of the matter. Never-the-less, games are more or less important in people's daily lives, and the more important they are to the gamer, the more the game needs to feel like it is providing something worthwhile.

Scot

We started of with two categories and now we have eight, try to put anything into a category and that's what happens.

Anyway those of us who want hybrid MMOs in terms of old and new gameplay should stick to promoting that, we don't need a "role" to play in casual MMO's we need better MMOs.